Free Will is a Delusion | |
Celador User ID: 2996 United States 07/19/2006 09:05 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | As a wise friend once told me, "he wrote on the topic of freewill vs determinism among other things... called them useless concepts. In his view there were only *strong wills* and *weak wills*... which makes more sense to me." In the gap between your thoughts shines something far brighter than the sun, more profound than all of the universe...and too beautiful to even imagine |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 119549 United States 07/19/2006 09:07 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | OP, apparently you have not read Nietzche. Quoting: CeladorAs a wise friend once told me, "he wrote on the topic of freewill vs determinism among other things... called them useless concepts. In his view there were only *strong wills* and *weak wills*... which makes more sense to me." Excuse me, i was wondering if you could tell me how you choose to post this thread and how you chose to type what you did? whats that, because you thought of it? where did that thought come from? i await your answer thank you very much PS strong will and free will are both things that exist at random from random thoughts. |
Sol Invictus User ID: 112749 Denmark 07/19/2006 09:07 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Excuse me, what do the above words have to do with the fact that you have no choose because all choose narrows down to thoughts and thoughts come from previous stimuli, which comes from stimuli before that and you dont know where the fuck your thoughts comefrom therefore you have no free will? whats it got to do with the thread? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549thanks. It has everything to do with the thread... If OP's logic was flawless, then there'd be no discussion. For us to have a discussion, I first had to question the validity of his logic, which could only be done by using counter-logic :P As for stimuli, you're talking about cause & effect of course. Keep in mind though, that cause & effect is based on a perception of linear time. A leads to B leads to C. What, however, if A was *beyond* linear time and saw that A would lead to B, changed his mind, and went another way? In that *moment* of non-linear time, there *would* be free will... That's why I said Premise 1 was most likely based on faulty information, since physics may well show time is NOT linear. I think all events are either caused, random, or they JUST ARE... See? If *some* events JUST ARE... then free will does exist, just like causality obviously does exist. Why does one exclude the other? Aut viam inveniam aut faciam |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 119549 United States 07/19/2006 09:10 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | where did your thought come from that there is no free will? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 114312it was determined by every position of every neuron in my brain and every connection they make with every other neuron and everything ive experience externally that formed those connections. i did not chose it. fortunately though im right and the others are wrong. |
the Questeon ? User ID: 7308 United States 07/19/2006 09:10 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | OP, apparently you have not read Nietzche. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549As a wise friend once told me, "he wrote on the topic of freewill vs determinism among other things... called them useless concepts. In his view there were only *strong wills* and *weak wills*... which makes more sense to me." Excuse me, i was wondering if you could tell me how you choose to post this thread and how you chose to type what you did? whats that, because you thought of it? where did that thought come from? i await your answer thank you very much PS strong will and free will are both things that exist at random from random thoughts. But do you exist without thought? Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs. A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil "those that don't ask questions have no options" one thousand mega-wats? of power |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 119549 United States 07/19/2006 09:11 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
the Questeon ? User ID: 7308 United States 07/19/2006 09:12 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Excuse me, what do the above words have to do with the fact that you have no choose because all choose narrows down to thoughts and thoughts come from previous stimuli, which comes from stimuli before that and you dont know where the fuck your thoughts comefrom therefore you have no free will? whats it got to do with the thread? Quoting: Sol Invictusthanks. It has everything to do with the thread... If OP's logic was flawless, then there'd be no discussion. For us to have a discussion, I first had to question the validity of his logic, which could only be done by using counter-logic :P As for stimuli, you're talking about cause & effect of course. Keep in mind though, that cause & effect is based on a perception of linear time. A leads to B leads to C. What, however, if A was *beyond* linear time and saw that A would lead to B, changed his mind, and went another way? In that *moment* of non-linear time, there *would* be free will... That's why I said Premise 1 was most likely based on faulty information, since physics may well show time is NOT linear. I think all events are either caused, random, or they JUST ARE... See? If *some* events JUST ARE... then free will does exist, just like causality obviously does exist. Why does one exclude the other? I like that explanation Sol :5: Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs. A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil "those that don't ask questions have no options" one thousand mega-wats? of power |
the Questeon ? User ID: 7308 United States 07/19/2006 09:13 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | But do you exist without thought? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549I'll take that as a no! (in your opinion) Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs. A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil "those that don't ask questions have no options" one thousand mega-wats? of power |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 119549 United States 07/19/2006 09:15 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | What, however, if A was *beyond* linear time and saw that A would lead to B, changed his mind, and went another way? In that *moment* of non-linear time, there *would* be free will... That's why I said Premise 1 was most likely based on faulty information, since physics may well show time is NOT linear. I think all events are either caused, random, or they JUST ARE... See? Quoting: the Questeon ?I like that explanation Sol :5: OMG are you completely retarded or did you get bashed in the skull very hard? it doesnt matter, no matter what you type , you didnt choose it, even past events and causality doesnt matter, because you still cant say how its a choice. and how the fuck could you even type if time didnt exist, it takes time to type or do anything |
Naturyl (OP) User ID: 118783 United States 07/19/2006 09:15 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Honestly I did not understand, if you could dumb it down for me, it might help clarify things. Quoting: Azoth777People don't have free will because all events in the universe are caused or random, and human actions are events in the universe. Does that help? Everybody gets the Nat they deserve. |
celador User ID: 2996 United States 07/19/2006 09:16 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | OP, apparently you have not read Nietzche. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549As a wise friend once told me, "he wrote on the topic of freewill vs determinism among other things... called them useless concepts. In his view there were only *strong wills* and *weak wills*... which makes more sense to me." Excuse me, i was wondering if you could tell me how you choose to post this thread and how you chose to type what you did? whats that, because you thought of it? where did that thought come from? i await your answer thank you very much PS strong will and free will are both things that exist at random from random thoughts. Ask YOURSELF that question, answer as honestly and fearlessly as you are capable and you will have your answer. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 119549 United States 07/19/2006 09:17 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 119549 United States 07/19/2006 09:18 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | it doesnt matter what anyone types in this fucking thread because its all determined and not free will, technically. you cannot control your DNA and your neurons and the things that pop up that make you think things and how you come up with those thoughts or anything get in through your dumb fuckin head. free will cant exist. shit. im out of here. |
Celador User ID: 2996 United States 07/19/2006 09:19 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Honestly I did not understand, if you could dumb it down for me, it might help clarify things. Quoting: NaturylPeople don't have free will because all events in the universe are caused or random, and human actions are events in the universe. Does that help? You were also incorrect about the nature of consciousness. In the gap between your thoughts shines something far brighter than the sun, more profound than all of the universe...and too beautiful to even imagine |
Naturyl (OP) User ID: 118783 United States 07/19/2006 09:19 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | the fact that you can deny your Creator Quoting: Anonymous Coward 114312proves that you have free will You keep on and on with this stuff, but it demonstrates nothing. Your belief in god is caused by various factors. My disbelief is caused by other factors. Belief or disbelief in god has nothing whatsoever to do with free will. Not everything is about your silly god. Everybody gets the Nat they deserve. |
Azoth777 User ID: 113992 United States 07/19/2006 09:20 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 119549 United States 07/19/2006 09:20 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 119549 United States 07/19/2006 09:21 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 73941 United States 07/19/2006 09:21 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | All preordained Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549A prisoner in chains A victim of venomous fate Kicked in the face You cant pray for a place In heavens unearthly estate Each of us A cell of awareness Imperfect and incomplete Genetic blends With uncertain ends On a fortune hunt Thats far too fleet.. YOU JERK, YOU DAMN SPAMING JERK I DONT WANT YOUR FUCKIN LYRICS IN THIS THREAD< SHUT THE FUCK UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OH YOU SPAMING ASSHOLE!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 73941 United States 07/19/2006 09:21 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 119549 United States 07/19/2006 09:22 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Sol Invictus User ID: 112749 Denmark 07/19/2006 09:22 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | OMG are you completely retarded or did you get bashed in the skull very hard? it doesnt matter, no matter what you type , you didnt choose it, even past events and causality doesnt matter, because you still cant say how its a choice. and how the fuck could you even type if time didnt exist, it takes time to type or do anything Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549Maybe your mind just can't grasp what I'm saying ;) I'd draw a little picture for you or use my hands to explain, but unfortunately that would be hard on GLP... So let me try to again with just words. You are saying we have no choice, no free will. I'm at A, and no matter what I do, I'll go to B, because that's what A leads to. Therefore I have no choice, no free will. Follow me so far? OK. What if however, I got superpowers. What if I, in this moment, could see an *infinite* amount of variations of my future unfold... and what if my mind could actually make sense of it. I could go to B, C, D, E, F, G, all the way through the alphabet and into infinite numbers if I wanted to. Are you saying that in that moment of super-thought, I wouldn't have free will? I would move through time to do things, obviously, but time would not *limit* me anymore... since I could navigate "potential futures" at will. Does that make more sense to you? Aut viam inveniam aut faciam |
the Questeon ? User ID: 7308 United States 07/19/2006 09:23 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | What, however, if A was *beyond* linear time and saw that A would lead to B, changed his mind, and went another way? In that *moment* of non-linear time, there *would* be free will... That's why I said Premise 1 was most likely based on faulty information, since physics may well show time is NOT linear. I think all events are either caused, random, or they JUST ARE... See? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549I like that explanation Sol :5: OMG are you completely retarded or did you get bashed in the skull very hard? it doesnt matter, no matter what you type , you didnt choose it, even past events and causality doesnt matter, because you still cant say how its a choice. and how the fuck could you even type if time didnt exist, it takes time to type or do anything metaphysics will teach you there is something beyond space time ...unconditioned ... choiceless...timeless.. a conciousness without an object and you are that. Also because of that you have free will(choice). Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." From page 405 of Rockefeller's 2002 book Memoirs. A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil "those that don't ask questions have no options" one thousand mega-wats? of power |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 119568 Australia 07/19/2006 09:23 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Not bad for a logical approach to the question of free will, Naturyl... but it's possible to have two premises that are correct, yet have a false conclusion. Quoting: Sol InvictusPremise 1: All german shepherds are dogs Premise 2: All dogs are mammals Conclusion: All mammals are dogs. But your logic is better than that, of course. Somewhere along the line (arguing for the sake of freewill) you probably made a mistake. I'd say that it was your first premise that was faulty... you rely on an imperfect understanding of physics, since humans haven't figured it all out yet. Free will is still an option, even if I personally think it's not all that common :P Cause & Effect rules most of the world, granted. Wouldn't the conclusion found by your premise 1 and 2 be. All german shepherds are mammals. |
gooderboy User ID: 81174 United States 07/19/2006 09:24 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | IDIOTS Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549UNDERSTAND THIS: when you choose to do something, it comes from thoughts, those thoughts come from a combo of your internal neuron activity combined with external stimuli. example: you clicked into this thread and thoughts result and you typed something. you still cant explain how thats free will. dont you understand. god damn. ... are you nuts or what, lol? You sound like what Einstein was talking about when he said, "Take care not to make intellect a god. It has muscle, but no personality." ... and yet, and even after having that being said... you're choosing there to personalize that which you are attempting to im-personalize.... lol, how do you even do that? ... and you are most right on too... for it is indeed - "your" - internal neuron activity... individualized and personalized, for there is no other 'activity' kinda vibration and/or frequency quite like it. ... and then no, it is hardly about "just" external stimuli... lol, and if ya don't believe me... just go out there and ask anyone anywhere and at any time. And you dang well know it too... for it is all about "how 'you' perceive" anything that colours in "your" world pov for 'you'. If it was just about external stimuli than everyone would see everything the very same way... and gee, guess what, lol, they don't? |
Naturyl (OP) User ID: 118783 United States 07/19/2006 09:25 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | What sources can I reference to learn about uncased quantum fluctuations in the brain? I would like to learn more. Quoting: Azoth777This is a good place to start: [link to en.wikipedia.org] Everybody gets the Nat they deserve. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 119559 United States 07/19/2006 09:25 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Azoth777 User ID: 113992 United States 07/19/2006 09:26 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 118505 United States 07/19/2006 09:27 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | where did your thought come from that there is no free will? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 119549it was determined by every position of every neuron in my brain and every connection they make with every other neuron and everything ive experience externally that formed those connections. i did not chose it. fortunately though im right and the others are wrong. Question: Why do we feel? "Well, that's simple.. because electrical signals from our nerves are regesterd as 'feel receptors' to the brain." Why do we have these 'receptors'. "Well, that's simple.. because we were born with them." Why were we born with them? "Because our parents' sperm and egg cells carry Human DNA that holds our physical Human image, which includes these 'receptors' in it's design." Why does our DNA have these 'receptor images'? "I've already told you that- 'Because our parents' sperm and egg cells carry Human DNA, which in turn holds our physical Human image- which includes these 'receptors' in it's design." And why do they have DNA? "Because your parents' parents had the same Human design...." And why do our parents have the same 'design' as their children? "Because their children, by nessecity, obtained their parents' physcial make-up at conception." How did these "receptors" get into our parents' "DNA"? "Evolution of single-celled organisms into multi-cellular organisms.." Why did these single-celled organisms evole? Because... of nessesity? Why did they feel it nessecary to evole? Because of the changes in the environment. Why did they change environments, thus forcing their own evolution? "Because they just happened to be at the right place at the right time?" We've hit a brick wall, haven't we? Sure, all of this can be shelved away as "randomized events", but that's bs. It's just circular logic at play. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 83027 United States 07/19/2006 09:27 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |