A Muslim asks, "What kind of Messiah would want to be ushered in by the blood of children, and the old, and the innocent?"

Do the old + new testaments support this idea? Where?

If not, why do allot of evangelicals believe it?

Yes, this idea can be found in scripture both in the Old and New Testament.

Where, d'ya know?

Excellent post.

Each side blames the other for their misdeeds and attempts to take two or three eyes for one, leading to an increasing spiral of violence.

This god of WAR (Satan) which they all worship in their greed for power, position, wealth, more children than the environment can sustain, or just plain hatred is carefully cultivated and nurtured.

Christians, Zionists, Muslims, Atheists, and other Warmongers are all alike in this respect when they follow the gods of WAR.


Peace.

I can't quote the book, chapter, and verse off the top of my head - but if we give it enough time, one of the fundies will stop by and provide the exact scripture!

I would bet many interpret Revelation to mean this.

He will ask them, was it in my name that all these crimes were committed? Is this how you welcome your Messiah? For which crime have all these people been punished? Which religion granted you hypocrites this right? Indeed, the long awaited Messiah will want to know which of their many false Messiahs taught them to commit these sacrileges. Demagogues have always used religion as the tools-of-trade for their geo-political ambitions.


-------------------------------------

Yup.

Rings true.

But hey, if they don't like what he has to say the second time around then they can always just kill him again, and deny that he ever existed.

Just like last time.

If they spend enough money to advertize it, and propagandize it, all of the idiot Christians will jump right on board with it too.

Sad world.

Thanks though OP, good article, smartly written.

I'm smart enough to realize that if TPTB want me to hate something, then that something is probably a good thing.

And seeing as I think they did not commit 9/11, I don't mind hearing it from a Muslim.

I may be wrong but I believe that Christ was referring to circumsatnces that would be prevailing at His return. They are not the focus of His return! If you read it correctly, the raising of spiritualty to a level approaching Godly love by at least a portion of mankind, is the reason for His return - not the destruction and wars that will be abounding at the time.

I thought this man raised some very good questions for fundamentalist Christians to wrestle with - questions that all religious fanatics should wrestle with, actually.

I'm assuming this man is a Muslim, but he may not be. He is certainly Arab, but not all Arabs are practicing Muslims, just as all Americans are not Christian.

Well I can say that even here on GLP, many people who call themselves Christians have been applauding all the violence and hope for more so that Jesus will return - their words, not mine.

And if, as a Christian, you believe that all things happen according to God's will and plan, then it is his will that this violence is being done.

My thoughts exactly. That was the part of the article that I appreciated the most.

NONE of the people that support Israel should dare to qualify themselves as CHRISTIAN.

This is part of the deception and the systematic try to discredit the whole faith.

These are just nothing, at the best they are just evil.

Yes many will call themselves Christians and they will be known by their fruits!

The pain, suffering, murder, violence etc is not God's plan or will! This is man's plan and will. God's plan is that all should come to the knowledge of the truth! In other words - love one another as they are loved by God. If God were to interfere with man's will, His purpose would be pointless. Love cannot be commanded or controlled - it must be free!

I wonder who they are. Any posters in particular? I'd like to ask them what part of the bible calls for Israel to dominate Palestine, kill Palestinians, etc. Surely no part of the New Testament does.

I dont recall anything like that

Good post 2XSecretAgent! I appreciate the diff. viewpoint, I ask that we pray for all the innocent children, Arab and Israeli! On your quote about God's will, it is man's free will that causes all evil! Think about the choices we make in our lives and how they affect our children, spouses, parents and people we don't even think of! Peace!

There have been many threads on GLP debating whether or not this war is the beginning of Armageddon with many posters providing quotes from scripture to support their belief that it is. I'll try to search the archives and find some.

This is not MY belief, but I have seen others here suggesting it is so.

Seventy million Americans... that's a lot of voters...

It just goes to show you that religion should never be alllowed to come within 100 feet of politics.

"Christians, Zionists, Muslims, Atheists, and other Warmongers are all alike in this respect when they follow the gods of WAR."

Atheists aren't warmongers, they don't have a God telling them to kill people in his name.

On the point of Israel dominating Palestine, if you take a map of King David's Israel and modern Israel the parallels are striking! Notice Gaza and Philistia are in the same place and also the bloodshed between the two!King David's Israel [link to ancienthistory.about.com] Modern Israel [link to www.mideastweb.org]

On the subject of Armeggddon, which is actually just the final battle of a war, I sincerly believe the next event will be the destruction of Damascus Syria, if God forbid some idiot launches a chemical rocket against Israel, I fear their response would be massive. Some cities in the news: Isa.23:1
The burden of Tyre. Howl, ye ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in: from the land of Chittim it is revealed to them
Damsacus:Isaiah 17:1-5
The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap

In this GLP thread, someone quotes the Old Testament book of Joel and interprets it as meaning Armageddon is approaching.

[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]

Here are the last 2 chapters of Joel
[link to www.biblegateway.com]

Joel 2
An Army of Locusts
1 Blow the trumpet in Zion;
sound the alarm on my holy hill.
Let all who live in the land tremble,
for the day of the LORD is coming.
It is close at hand-

2 a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and blackness.
Like dawn spreading across the mountains
a large and mighty army comes,
such as never was of old
nor ever will be in ages to come.

3 Before them fire devours,
behind them a flame blazes.
Before them the land is like the garden of Eden,
behind them, a desert waste—
nothing escapes them.

4 They have the appearance of horses;
they gallop along like cavalry.

5 With a noise like that of chariots
they leap over the mountaintops,
like a crackling fire consuming stubble,
like a mighty army drawn up for battle.

6 At the sight of them, nations are in anguish;
every face turns pale.

7 They charge like warriors;
they scale walls like soldiers.
They all march in line,
not swerving from their course.

8 They do not jostle each other;
each marches straight ahead.
They plunge through defenses
without breaking ranks.

9 They rush upon the city;
they run along the wall.
They climb into the houses;
like thieves they enter through the windows.

10 Before them the earth shakes,
the sky trembles,
the sun and moon are darkened,
and the stars no longer shine.

11 The LORD thunders
at the head of his army;
his forces are beyond number,
and mighty are those who obey his command.
The day of the LORD is great;
it is dreadful.
Who can endure it?
Rend Your Heart
12 "Even now," declares the LORD,
"return to me with all your heart,
with fasting and weeping and mourning."

13 Rend your heart
and not your garments.
Return to the LORD your God,
for he is gracious and compassionate,
slow to anger and abounding in love,
and he relents from sending calamity.

14 Who knows? He may turn and have pity
and leave behind a blessing—
grain offerings and drink offerings
for the LORD your God.

15 Blow the trumpet in Zion,
declare a holy fast,
call a sacred assembly.

16 Gather the people,
consecrate the assembly;
bring together the elders,
gather the children,
those nursing at the breast.
Let the bridegroom leave his room
and the bride her chamber.

17 Let the priests, who minister before the LORD,
weep between the temple porch and the altar.
Let them say, "Spare your people, O LORD.
Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn,
a byword among the nations.
Why should they say among the peoples,
'Where is their God?' "
The LORD's Answer
18 Then the LORD will be jealous for his land
and take pity on his people.

19 The LORD will reply [a] to them:
"I am sending you grain, new wine and oil,
enough to satisfy you fully;
never again will I make you
an object of scorn to the nations.

20 "I will drive the northern army far from you,
pushing it into a parched and barren land,
with its front columns going into the eastern sea
and those in the rear into the western sea. [c]
And its stench will go up;
its smell will rise."
Surely he has done great things. [d]

21 Be not afraid, O land;
be glad and rejoice.
Surely the LORD has done great things.

22 Be not afraid, O wild animals,
for the open pastures are becoming green.
The trees are bearing their fruit;
the fig tree and the vine yield their riches.

23 Be glad, O people of Zion,
rejoice in the LORD your God,
for he has given you
the autumn rains in righteousness. [e]
He sends you abundant showers,
both autumn and spring rains, as before.

24 The threshing floors will be filled with grain;
the vats will overflow with new wine and oil.

25 "I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten—
the great locust and the young locust,
the other locusts and the locust swarm [f]—
my great army that I sent among you.

26 You will have plenty to eat, until you are full,
and you will praise the name of the LORD your God,
who has worked wonders for you;
never again will my people be shamed.

27 Then you will know that I am in Israel,
that I am the LORD your God,
and that there is no other;
never again will my people be shamed.
The Day of the LORD
28 "And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.

29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

30 I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.

31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

32 And everyone who calls
on the name of the LORD will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the LORD has said,
among the survivors
whom the LORD calls.

1 "In those days and at that time,
when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,

2 I will gather all nations
and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. [a]
There I will enter into judgment against them
concerning my inheritance, my people Israel,
for they scattered my people among the nations
and divided up my land.

3 They cast lots for my people
and traded boys for prostitutes;
they sold girls for wine
that they might drink.

4 "Now what have you against me, O Tyre and Sidon and all you regions of Philistia? Are you repaying me for something I have done? If you are paying me back, I will swiftly and speedily return on your own heads what you have done. 5 For you took my silver and my gold and carried off my finest treasures to your temples. 6 You sold the people of Judah and Jerusalem to the Greeks, that you might send them far from their homeland.

7 "See, I am going to rouse them out of the places to which you sold them, and I will return on your own heads what you have done. 8 I will sell your sons and daughters to the people of Judah, and they will sell them to the Sabeans, a nation far away." The LORD has spoken.

9 Proclaim this among the nations:
Prepare for war!
Rouse the warriors!
Let all the fighting men draw near and attack.

10 Beat your plowshares into swords
and your pruning hooks into spears.
Let the weakling say,
"I am strong!"

11 Come quickly, all you nations from every side,
and assemble there.
Bring down your warriors, O LORD!

12 "Let the nations be roused;
let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat,
for there I will sit
to judge all the nations on every side.

13 Swing the sickle,
for the harvest is ripe.
Come, trample the grapes,
for the winepress is full
and the vats overflow—
so great is their wickedness!"

14 Multitudes, multitudes
in the valley of decision!
For the day of the LORD is near
in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and moon will be darkened,
and the stars no longer shine.

16 The LORD will roar from Zion
and thunder from Jerusalem;
the earth and the sky will tremble.
But the LORD will be a refuge for his people,
a stronghold for the people of Israel.
Blessings for God's People
17 "Then you will know that I, the LORD your God,
dwell in Zion, my holy hill.
Jerusalem will be holy;
never again will foreigners invade her.

18 "In that day the mountains will drip new wine,
and the hills will flow with milk;
all the ravines of Judah will run with water.
A fountain will flow out of the LORD's house
and will water the valley of acacias.

19 But Egypt will be desolate,
Edom a desert waste,
because of violence done to the people of Judah,
in whose land they shed innocent blood.

20 Judah will be inhabited forever
and Jerusalem through all generations.

21 Their bloodguilt, which I have not pardoned,
I will pardon."
The LORD dwells in Zion!


By the way, Jerusalem is currently divided between Palestine and Israel.

OP, could you provide the source from the torah upon which is based the statement that the Jews believe that Palestine has something to do with the return of the messiah?

People believe all kinds of propaganda that is meant to inflame emotions and hatred, but because they believe these things don't make them true.

Some folks are going to be very suprised when the rapture comes and They are the ones "Left Behind".

What kind of messiah? THE MAHDI!

Religion is what keeps humans seperated and in a constant state of conflict. Religion must be removed in order for the human race to move forward. Otherwise, we will just self-destruct.

Cultures, belief systems are mostly founded on the teachings of the predominant religion in that geographic area.

I agree. If you read what I said in my posts, the questions asked in this article of Christian extremists are questions that should be asked of all extremists.

I only provided the passages from Joel because people asked for proof that the Bible does call for the destruction of Palestine, as the author of the article suggested.

It's all a matter of interpetation.

It's not the teachings of Christ or others that have done this but rather what the students or disciples have done with the teachings!

The Muslims been trying to kill the Ja-who-Dee's since day 1. every time they have been handed their asses on a platter.

in the first 3 wars, large numbers of Arabs were dispatched by a very small number of Jews.

the Rivers and seas would run red with their blood (Nasser) blah blah blah.

every time, ass on platter.

ya know what? it will be the same this time.

If the Palestinians had adopted a Gandhi approach they probably would be living in Nirvana now, world would have beat a path to their door, given massive aid etc.

bUT THEY CHOSE INTAFADA!! HOWS IT WORKING FOR YA!!!