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Destination Maccabees

 
Shadow Dancer
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08/18/2006 05:17 PM
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Destination Maccabees
Maccabees continued

Certainly, as soon as a man orders his life according to the Law, if he is miserly he acts contrary to his nature, and lends money to the needy without interest, and at the seventh-year periods cancels his debt.

And if he is parsimonious, he is overruled by the Law through the action of Reason, and refrains from gleaning his stubbles or picking the last grapes from the vineyards.

And with regard to all the rest we can recognize that Reason is in the position of master over the passions or affections.

More coming


flower
All choices have consequences, choose wisely, CHOOSE WISELY.
Shadow Dancer (OP)

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08/18/2006 05:37 PM
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For the Law ranks above affection for parents, so that a man may not for their sakes surrender his virtue, and it overrides love for a wife, so that ifshe transgresses a man should rebuke her, and it governs love for children, sothat if they are naughty a man should punish them, so that a man should reprove his friends if they do evil.

And do not think it is a paradoxical thing when Reason through the Law is able to overcome even hatred, so that a man refrains from cutting down the enemy's orchards, and protects the property of the enemy from the spoilers, and gathers up their goods that have been scattered.

After the rule of Reason is likewise proved to extend through the more aggressive passions or vices, ambition, vanity, ostentation, pride, and backbiting.

For the temperate mind repels all debased passions, even as it does anger, for it conquers even this.

Yes, Moses when he was angered against dathan and Abiram did not give free course to his wrath, but governed his anger by his Reason.

For the temperate mind is able, as I said, to win the victory over the passions, modifying some, while crushing others absolutely.

Why else did our wise father Jacob blame the houses of Simeon and Levi for their unreasonsing slaughter of the tribe of the Shechemites, saying, 'Accursed be their anger!

For had not Reason posessed the power to restrain their anger he would not have spoken thus.

For in the day when God created man, he implanted in him his passions and inclinations, and also, at the very same time, set the mind on a throne amidst the senses to be his sacred guide in all things; and to the mind he gave the Law, by which if a man order himself, he shall reign over a kingom that is temperate, and just, and virtuous, and brave.


More coming flower
All choices have consequences, choose wisely, CHOOSE WISELY.
Shadow Dancer (OP)

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08/18/2006 05:43 PM
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Re: Destination Maccabees
Chapter II

starting after short intermission
All choices have consequences, choose wisely, CHOOSE WISELY.
JCD

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08/18/2006 06:04 PM
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And if he is parsimonious, he is overruled by the Law through the action of Reason, and refrains from gleaning his stubbles or picking the last grapes from the vineyards.

flower
 Quoting: Shadow Dancer

I have actually been wrestling with 'gleaning' in my mind ever since my berries ripened.

Here in our town the potato fields allow 'gleaners' once harvest it over. Now I know there will be no gleaners for my berries so, should I pick them all to store for my family? or Should I leave some for even the birds and insects need food?

I have chosen to leave some as a good example unto the Lord. To show Him I am trying to follow those things He has asked. Would you say this is an example of Reason?
Things change when you least expect it.
Shadow Dancer (OP)

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08/18/2006 06:57 PM
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I do not glean the stubble-I also leave it for the hungry, whether they are human or animal. It isn't because of the law though.

When I had my house I had alot of extra tomatoes or beans or lettuce-even herbs. It is nice when you can give some to neighbors and family. Fresh


and I enjoy making others happy with food too. smile_kiss



Do you find the Maccabees stuff interesting?
All choices have consequences, choose wisely, CHOOSE WISELY.
JCD...nli
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08/18/2006 07:10 PM
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Yes! Very! It says alot of what I think. It answers alot of my questions all rolled up into one. Like why can't people just do this? or why don't they do that? or why do poeple act a certain way? It all comes down to reason controlling their emotional responses to a situation. If you are to stop and think before you do something, hopefully that gives reason a chance to rise to the top and people would give a more sensible response to whatever the case may be. AND It seems when things are 'reasoned' over before action is taken it results in a more loving response as well because you have thought through how your actions will affect others.

I really like it. I think I am following it correctly.
Shadow Dancer (OP)

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08/18/2006 07:22 PM
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Seems like you are getting it and few seem to get what would seem so easy to grasp. It helps rein in our passions for the Reason of logic imo.


The older one gets the treasures of understanding start to amass and one can be in awe of the simplicity of the grandeur of Gods wisdom and Love for us.

At least I am u2efine
All choices have consequences, choose wisely, CHOOSE WISELY.
JCD

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08/18/2006 07:25 PM
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Yeah, it seems like a simple concept now, but just try to explain the wisdom of it to a teenager. LOL

Hey....you aren't sayin' I'm old are ya'??? hehehehe
Things change when you least expect it.
Shadow Dancer (OP)

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08/18/2006 07:37 PM
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Maccabees continued chapter II

Well then, someone may ask, if Reason is master of the passions why is it not master of forgetfulness and ignorance?

But the argument is supremely ridculous. For Reason is not shown to master over passions or defects in itself, but over those of the body.

For example,none of you is able to extirpate out natural desire but the Reason can enable him to escape being made a slave by desire.

None of you is able to extirpate anger from your soul, but it is possible for the Reason to come to his aid against anger.

None of you can extirpate a malevolent disposition, but Reason can be a powerful ally against being swayed by malevolence.

Reason is not the extirpate of the passions, but their antagonist.

The case of the thirst of King David may serve at least to make this clearer.

flower


Not saying you are old at all cause then I would be too probably.
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Shadow Dancer (OP)

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08/18/2006 07:41 PM
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Re: Destination Maccabees
I did say older-not oldest or ancient of days lol


a touch older than a teenager yes I kinda like that flower
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sublight000

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08/18/2006 07:41 PM
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I live in CT where there is a deposit on cans and bottles. On the day of trash collection several people come around to the recycle bins and remove the deposit items. Because I have read this I will now seperate them out and bag them in a clear bag and label them as deposit as well. I can only hope these people will feel as respcted as they are.
Anonymous Coward
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08/18/2006 07:45 PM
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Re: Destination Maccabees
hmmmm. if you break one law...you are guilty of breaking all.

so i've heard.
Anonymous Coward
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08/18/2006 08:46 PM
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sublight000 what you posted is excellent and I posted that flower right after you posted and then the machine logged me out when I tried to post.


I relayed that it was the play it forward and that I had done that for a very long time and as I became old enough to pursue it. An example would be people needing car help or whatever. After helping I have frequently been asked if they could pay me.

I have always said, "No,I do not want any money. I helped you for no reason and expecting no payment. I will ask that if ever you see someone who needs help if you would take the time and help another and in the same way without expecting or wanting compensation.

I remember more than one person being shocked or finding it odd-pleasant but very unusual.

I think it is great that you will do that-that is what the world needs-we have 1 world and we may disagree on many things from one to another but we are all sisters and brothers. Can we agree we all want similiar things in the way of basic human needs-Love, family and friends, peace, food, shelter, health, tolerance of differences or even compassionate understanding-charity begins at home and in ones heart toward others that we co exist with.

I think it is great!!! smile_kiss


For the other poster I have heard that as well as think there is alot of valueto the reasoning. hi

I am sorry to have had my response take so long as I tried repeatedly to get back in and even re booted.

Thx for playing it forward and sharing your graciousness.

Well, JCD, is no one else having any problems?


smile_hear
ShadowDancer nli
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08/18/2006 08:48 PM
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See I am in but I am not logged in again-

I might just post this way for a while so I do not get shut out sfan
Anonymous Coward
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08/18/2006 08:49 PM
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suffer the spelling mistakes


violin
JCD...nli
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08/18/2006 11:03 PM
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I keep getting kicked out too. AAAAlllll afternoon! Sorry
Shadow Dancer (OP)

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08/18/2006 11:16 PM
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We have a flat on the maccabee line so I am out since it is happening so much. Maybe they will get things fixed by tomorrow.

Take care flower
All choices have consequences, choose wisely, CHOOSE WISELY.
JCD

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08/19/2006 01:11 PM
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Doesn't 'playing it forward' nulify the deed? I mean, yes you expect no payment now, but if you help others with the expectaion that it will come back.........

I have never given a thought to anything that might eventually come back around, I just find it extremely satisfying to help others.

Just askin'.
Things change when you least expect it.
Shadow Dancer (OP)

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08/20/2006 02:49 AM
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I have remained offline since it was having alot of glitches.

Play it forward to me means do it for the sake of doing it-I look at it as helping others.

I do not expect others to pay me nor do they have to help another-but from my helping them I would hope they would do the same for another in need.

Hope that clarifies JCD


Whatever anyone puts out is the same as what comes back

Sow and reap

sow seeds of pleasant plants not weeds

What goes around comes around
All choices have consequences, choose wisely, CHOOSE WISELY.
JCD...nli
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08/20/2006 11:19 AM
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Thanks SD. I wasn't reading right. I didn't think that was what you meant but thought I would ask.

Just got done making jelly!! Mmmmmm.
Claycat
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08/20/2006 11:26 AM
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Shadow Dancer and JCD! hi

What lovely, wonderful people you are! hugs

I try to pay it forward, too. hf
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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08/20/2006 01:00 PM
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still having troubles but I will keep at it regardless

Love to all smile_hear
JCD...nli
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08/21/2006 11:41 AM
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I haven't had much time for the computer, but are you going to post more Maccabees? I hope so!!!
Anonymous Coward
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08/21/2006 11:42 AM
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Hi back at ya Clay!! Glad to know others do it too.

JCD
Anonymous Coward
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08/21/2006 11:54 AM
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that is great



the more that do it the more it resonates and like minds come together.





hf
Anonymous Coward
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08/21/2006 11:54 AM
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I will hf
Anonymous Coward
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08/21/2006 12:03 PM
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Yay!!! I'll try to pop in later. No major garden or canning chores today, just a little picking. (and some house work of course) heheheh

I can't wait!
SD nli
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08/21/2006 12:35 PM
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Re: Destination Maccabees
Maccabees con't

For when David had fought against the Philistines, and by the help of our country's warriors had slain many of them, he came at eventide, all fordone with sweat and toil, to the royal tent, around which was encamped the whole army of our ancestors.

So all the host fell to their evening meal; but the king, being consumed with an intense thirst, though he had abundance of water, was unable to slake it.

Instead, an irrational desire for the water that was in possession of the enemy with growing intensity burned him up and unmanned and consumed him.

Then when his body-guard murmured against the craving of the king, two youths, mighty warriors, ashamed that their king should lack his desire, put on all their armour, and took a water-vessel, and scaled the enemy's ramparts; and stealing undetected past the guards at the gate, they searched through all the enemy's camp.

And they bravely found the spring, and drew from it draught for the king.

But David, though still burning with the thirst, considered that such a draught, reckeoned as equivalent to blood, was a grievous danger to his soul.

Therefore, opposing his REason to his desire, he poured out the water as an offering to God.

For the temperate mind is able to conquer the dictates of the passions, and to quench the fires of desire, and to wrestle victoriously with the pangs of our bodies though they be exceeding strong, and by the moral beauty and goodness of Reason to defy with scorn all the domination of the passions.

And now the occasion calls us to set forth the story of the self-contrilled Reason.

At a time when our fathers enjoyed great peace through due observance of the Law, and were in happy case, so the Seleucus Nicanor, the king of Asia, sanctioned the tax for the temple-service, and recopnized our polity, precisely then, certain men, acting factiously against the general concord, involved us in many and various calamities.

Onias, a man of the highest character, being then high priest and having the office for his life, a certain Simon raised a faction against him, but since despite every kind of slander he failed to injure him on account of the people, he fled abroad with intent to betray his country.

So he came to Apollonius, the governor of Syria and Phoenicia and Cilicia, and I said, 'Being loyal to the king, I am here to inform you that in the treasuries of Jerusalem are stored many thousands of private deposits, not belonging to the temple account, and rightfully the property of King Seleucus.'

Apollonius having made inquiry into the details of the matter, praised Simon for his loyal service to the king, and hastening to the court of Seleucus, disclosed to him the valuable treasure; then, after receiving authority to deal with the matter, he promply marched into our country, accompanied by by the accursed Simon and a very powerful army, and announced that he was there by the king's command to take possession of the private deposits in the treasury.

Our people were deeply angered by this announcement, and protested strongly, considering it an outrageous thing for those who had entrusted their deposits to the temple treasury to be robbed of them, and they threw all possible obstacles in his way.

Apollonius, however, with threats, made his way into the temple.

Then, the priests in the temple and the women and children besought God to come to the rescue of his Holy Place that was being violated; and when Apollonius with his armed host marched in to seize the moneys, there appeared from heavens angels, riding upon horses, with lightening flashing from their arms, and cast great ffear and trembling upon them.

And Apollonius fell down half-dead in the Court of the Gentiles, and stretched out his hands to heaven, and with tears in he entreated the Hebrews that they would make intercession for him and stay the wrath of the heavenly host.

For he said that he had sinned and was worthy even of death, and that if he were given his life he would laud to all men the blessedness of the Holy Place.

Moved by these words, Onias, the high-priest, although most scrupulous in other cases, amde intercession for him lest King Seleucus should possibly think that Appllonius had been overthrown by a human device and not by divine justice.

Apollonius, accordingly, after his astonishing deliverance departed to report to the king the things that had befallen him.

But Seleucus dying, his successor on the throne was his son Antiochus Epiphanes, an overweening terrible man; who dismissed Onias from his sacred office, and made his brither Jason high=priest instead, the condition being that in return for the appointment Jason should pay him three thousand six hundred and sixty talents yearly.

So he appointed Jason high-priest and made him chief ruler over the people.

And he (Jason) introduced to our people a new way of life and a new constitution in utter defiance of the Law; so that not only did he lay out a gymnasium on the Mount of our fathers, but he actually abolished the service of the temple.

Wherefore the divine justice was kindled to anger and brought Antiochus himself as an enemy against us.

flower
Anonymous Coward
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08/21/2006 12:45 PM
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I think I just need to ask hubby if we can buy this book. It sounds very worthy of reading. Keep posting if you can! For those who may be unable to obtain it. It is a good thing you do.
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Re: Destination Maccabees
Maccabees


for when he was carryingon war with Ptolemy in Egypt and heard that the people of Jerusalem had rejoiced exceedingly over a report of his death, he immediately marched back against them.

And when he had plundered the city he made a decree denouncing the penalty if death upon any who should be seen to live after the Law of our fathers.

But he found all his decrees of no avail to break down the constancy of our people to the Law, and he beheld all his threats and penalties utterly despised, so that even women for circumcising their sons, though they knew beforehand what would be their fate, were flung, together with their offspring, headlong from the rocks.

When therefore his decrees continued to be condemned by the mass of the people, he personally tried to force by tortures each man separatesly to eat unclean meats and thus abjure the Jewish religion.

Accordingly, The tyrant Antiochus, accompanied by his councillors, sat in judgement on a certain high place with his troops drawn up around him in full armour, and he ordered his guards to drag there every single man of the Hebrews and compel them to eat swine's flesh and things offered to idols; but if any should refuse to defile themsleves with the unclean things, they were to be tortured and put to death.

And when many had been taken by force, one man first from among the company was brought before Antiochus, a Hebrew whose name was Eleaszar, a priest by birth, trained in knowledge of the law, a man advanced in years and well known to many of the tyrant's court for his philosophy.

And Antiochus, looking on him, said:
'Before I allow tortures to begin for you, O venerable man, I would give you this counsel, that you should eat of the flesh of the swine and save your life; for I respect your age and your grey hairs, although ti have worn them so long a time, and still to cling to the Jewish religion, makes me think you no philosopher.

For most excellent is the meat of this animal which Nature has graciously bestowed upon us, and why should you abominate it? Truly it is folly not to enjoy innocent pleasures, and it is wrong to reject Nature's favours.

But it will be still greater folly, I think, on your part if with idle vapouring about truth you shall proceed to defy even me to your own punishment.

Will you not awake from preposterous philosophy? Will you not fling aside the nonsense of your calculations and adopting another frame of mind befitting your mature years, learn the true philosophy of expediency, and how to my charitable counsel, and have pity on your own venerable age?

For consider this, too, that even if there be some Power whose eye is upon this religion of yours, he will always pardon you for a transgression done under compulsion.

Thus urged by the tyrant to the unlawful eating of unclean meat, Eleazar asked permission to speak; and receivng it, he began hsi speech before the court as follows:

'We, O Antiochus, having acceoted the Divine Law as the Law of our country, do not believe any stronger necessity is laid upon us than that of our obediance to the Law.

Therefore we do surely deem it right not in any way whatsoever to transgress the Law.

And yet, were our Law, as you suggest, not truly divine, while we vainly believed it to be divine, not even so would it be right for us to destroy our reputation for piety.

Think it no, then, a small sin for us to eat the unclean thing, for the transgression of the Law, be it in small things or in great, is equally the Law is despised.

And you scoff at our philosophy, as if under it we were living in a manner contrary to reason.

Not so, for the Law teaches us self-control, so that we are masters of all our pleasures and desires and are thoroughly trained in manliness so as to endure all pain with readiness; and it teaches justice, so that with all our various dispostions we act fairly, and it teaches righteousness, so that with due reverence we worship only the God who is.

Therefore do we eat no unclean meat; for believing our Law to be given by God, we know also that the Creator of the world, as a lawgiver, feels for us according to our nature.

He has commanded us to eat the things that will be convenient for our souls, and he has forbidden us to eat meats that would be the contrary.

But it is the act of a tyrant that you should compel us not only to transgress the Law, but should also make us eat in such manner that you may mock at this defilement so utterly abomible to us.

But you shall not mock at me thus, neither will I break the sacred oaths of my ancestors to keep the Law, not even though you tear out mine eyes and burn out my entrails.

I am not so unmanned by old age but that when righteousness is at stake the strength of youth returns to my Reason.

So twist hard your racks and blow your furnace hotter. I do not so pity mine old age as to break the Law of my fathers in mine own person.

I will not belie thee, O LAw that wast my teacher; I will not desert thee, O beloeved self-control; I will not put thee to shame, O wisdom-loving Reason, nor will I deny ye, O venerated priesthood and knowledge of the Law.

Neither shalt thou sully the pure mouth of mine old age and my lifelong constancy to the Law. Clean shall my fathers receive me, unafraid of they torments even to the death.

For thou indeed mayest be tyrant over unrighteous men, but thou shalt not lord it over my resolution in the matter of righteousness either by they words or through thy deeds.'

chapter II ending
JCD...nli
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08/21/2006 01:56 PM
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Thanks SD!

I would like to share what I learned today picking blackberries. Yes, it takes a hands on example for me to get it sometimes.

Do not reach for what is not provided for you. At great pain you may obtain it while overlooking that which is better and freely provided.