Godlike Productions - Discussion Forum
Users Online Now: 2,365 (Who's On?)Visitors Today: 929,869
Pageviews Today: 1,657,741Threads Today: 703Posts Today: 12,520
06:50 PM


Rate this Thread

Absolute BS Crap Reasonable Nice Amazing
 

Undetectable Hardware Backdoors

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 68463931
Greece
03/08/2015 09:37 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
Here is the original paper (very detailed)

[link to janhkrueger.de (secure)]

And here is an short article related to above

[link to phys.org]

Explaining their work further, the authors said that "In this paper we introduced a new type of sub-transistor level hardware Trojan that only requires modification of the dopant masks. No additional transistor gates are added and no other layout mask needs to be modified. Since only changes to the metal, polysilicon or active area can be reliably detected with optical inspection, our dopant Trojans are immune to optical inspection."

This type of Trojan under discussion is said to pose a great challenge. The authors commented that "They set a new lower bar on how much overhead can be expected from a hardware Trojan in practice (i.e. zero!)." The authors recommended that future work should include developing new methods to detect these "sub-transistor level hardware Trojans."
 Quoting:



If you allowed your chosen dual-citizens the authority over your hardware produced, then you can be assured that something like this or even more advanced is within your military hardware.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 32052332
Malta
03/08/2015 09:55 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
bump
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 66079880
United States
03/08/2015 10:31 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
The backdoors in military hardware are much more disconcerting than anything on my pc.
Daughter

User ID: 62159782
United States
03/08/2015 10:39 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
Yes, that is true.

That made me think of Cern and their new hardware. tounge

The same things could happen to them, just one little thing and monster ate them>tounge
Daughter out with my own way.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 68378832
United States
03/08/2015 10:46 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
This is the problem that hasn't been brought down upon us yet. Give it some time to develop and infiltrate, then we'll see the panic.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 68463931
Greece
03/08/2015 01:27 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
bump
Lil Sis

User ID: 11213558
United States
03/08/2015 01:39 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
This is the problem that hasn't been brought down upon us yet. Give it some time to develop and infiltrate, then we'll see the panic.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 68378832


There has been little reaction and no panic to the announcements that routers and modems contain back doors, are vulnerable to hacking and lastly, that 70% or so of home modems are hacked.

Tell this to a crowd and watch the yawns.

I think that the public has just burnt out on computer scares. They are backed into a corner, either unhook from the net or be hacked/attacked are the choices.

Those is charge of security will panic, for sure, but everybody else will just add this new scare to the heap of things they have no control over, switch the channel.
*************************************************************​***********
Corruptisima re publica plurimae leges. ~ Terence
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 13127957
United States
03/08/2015 01:43 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
The entire computerized world is built on spyware.

Facebook, Twitter, Google, and thousand of others are created to spy on everyone. The sheeple just do not want to wake up. We live in a spy society. Everything you do is watched and known, and logged.

The only way to escape it is to live off grid and away from computers.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 68378832
United States
03/08/2015 01:56 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
This is the problem that hasn't been brought down upon us yet. Give it some time to develop and infiltrate, then we'll see the panic.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 68378832


There has been little reaction and no panic to the announcements that routers and modems contain back doors, are vulnerable to hacking and lastly, that 70% or so of home modems are hacked.

Tell this to a crowd and watch the yawns.

I think that the public has just burnt out on computer scares. They are backed into a corner, either unhook from the net or be hacked/attacked are the choices.

Those is charge of security will panic, for sure, but everybody else will just add this new scare to the heap of things they have no control over, switch the channel.
 Quoting: Lil Sis


Your first paragraph was more-so relevant a few years ago and farther, and had to do with cable modems mostly or combo routers.

This new instance will be more business oriented, but will scoop up the home users as well. Business trade secrets, proprietary formulas/plans/etc... will be up for grabs if one of these 'hardware devices' gets plugged into the network or computer that the information sits on. The 'hardware device' could be your USB thumbdrive, while on the surface looks fine, on the firmware level it is infected and unknown to the user or computer. That's where the targeted attacks are going to flourish I think and almost all firmware is vulnerable due to a variety of reasons, some fixable others not so easy.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 68378832
United States
03/08/2015 01:58 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
^^^
And I mentioned thumbdrives, but USB keyboards, mouses, literally almost anything that is USB based. The list is huge that has the potential to be turned into a walking disaster waiting to be plugged into the unsuspecting victims computer.
-GLP-Christian-

User ID: 68279127
Sweden
03/08/2015 02:00 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
And still they refuse to make their own stuff and have their enemy make their hardware.

What a bunch of idiots.
Get saved wretch: [link to biblebelievers.com]
Everything you need to know about islam: [link to prophetofdoom.net]
The Jihad Triangle: [link to www.youtube.com (secure)]

FRANCE IS TEH GHEY!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 45336148
United Kingdom
03/08/2015 02:09 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
This is the problem that hasn't been brought down upon us yet. Give it some time to develop and infiltrate, then we'll see the panic.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 68378832


There has been little reaction and no panic to the announcements that routers and modems contain back doors, are vulnerable to hacking and lastly, that 70% or so of home modems are hacked.

Tell this to a crowd and watch the yawns.

I think that the public has just burnt out on computer scares. They are backed into a corner, either unhook from the net or be hacked/attacked are the choices.

Those is charge of security will panic, for sure, but everybody else will just add this new scare to the heap of things they have no control over, switch the channel.
 Quoting: Lil Sis


Why would the public care. They already upload their photod to instagram, document their life to facebook, and bavkup their data to the cloud and you know what the cloud is.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 45336148
United Kingdom
03/08/2015 02:11 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
The only thing that matters is iut sourcing chip Fabs to 3rd world countries and.enemy nations like china. If start to rely on such a model then you put your military in danger of sabbotage.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 984018
United States
03/08/2015 02:14 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
For the undetectable that was obviously detectable by experts.

Algorithms in chip design and patenting are important. The planet's technology is on an honor system that is backed by government controls. Without countrols of law everything made by man can be broken into by man.

The argument is about honor. The modern governments have demonstrated that they have about as much honor in behavior towards themeselves, their population represented, and one another as my old labrador had honor to the shoes in my closet and the rug in my living room - he chewed them and peed on it, there was no honor! And he would let the burglars in.

People go by law, not tech, otherwise any baseball bat could break something, no fancy schmancy techno wizardry required to stop the other guy.

In the name of secrecy the governments have no honor. The hardware they license to exist by their taxpayers, it's designed to have weakness in the name of security. They designed it that way, for governments to profit on civilians activity.

This trojan is nothing compared to the other electronic stuff that is used in the natural world, no fancy computers required.

Admit it, the tech has no actual value if the person using it has no morals, no ethics, no nothing. The real tech is in social constructs, which this world has not any for stupid government names. I don't care about the tech, it's truly a people problem.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 68514280
Australia
03/08/2015 02:20 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
Yawn everyone that knows anything knows the spyware is in the hardware and the data is sent back over the power lines using tech similar to ethernet over power socket.

[link to www.cnet.com]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 64631229
United States
03/08/2015 02:25 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
The entire computerized world is built on spyware.

Facebook, Twitter, Google, and thousand of others are created to spy on everyone. The sheeple just do not want to wake up. We live in a spy society. Everything you do is watched and known, and logged.

The only way to escape it is to live off grid and away from computers.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 13127957


Yeah. Everyone forgets that the TCP/IP stack was developed by DARPA.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 50819642
Belgium
03/08/2015 03:08 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
The only thing that matters is iut sourcing chip Fabs to 3rd world countries and.enemy nations like china. If start to rely on such a model then you put your military in danger of sabbotage.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45336148

did you read the linked paper?

any fab could subvert chips. and currently, no one has a surefire way of detecting such subverted chips.

threats don't solely come from third world countries or the chinese republic...
Lil Sis

User ID: 11213558
United States
03/08/2015 03:31 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
This is the problem that hasn't been brought down upon us yet. Give it some time to develop and infiltrate, then we'll see the panic.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 68378832


There has been little reaction and no panic to the announcements that routers and modems contain back doors, are vulnerable to hacking and lastly, that 70% or so of home modems are hacked.

Tell this to a crowd and watch the yawns.

I think that the public has just burnt out on computer scares. They are backed into a corner, either unhook from the net or be hacked/attacked are the choices.

Those is charge of security will panic, for sure, but everybody else will just add this new scare to the heap of things they have no control over, switch the channel.
 Quoting: Lil Sis


Your first paragraph was more-so relevant a few years ago and farther, and had to do with cable modems mostly or combo routers.

This new instance will be more business oriented, but will scoop up the home users as well. Business trade secrets, proprietary formulas/plans/etc... will be up for grabs if one of these 'hardware devices' gets plugged into the network or computer that the information sits on. The 'hardware device' could be your USB thumbdrive, while on the surface looks fine, on the firmware level it is infected and unknown to the user or computer. That's where the targeted attacks are going to flourish I think and almost all firmware is vulnerable due to a variety of reasons, some fixable others not so easy.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 68378832


Please read top line. That is what I am referring to.

I am fully aware of what can actually happen, I am refering to the limp response that this new threat will bring.

That was true then, however I am going to disagree and say that literally all network hardware, not just home routers and modems, has been compromised, and it was no secret. Is still true now. Did you see any panic over that revelation? No.

And you wont see a panic over this one either.

Did you see a panic in businesses and utilities when the vulnerabilities of literally all network hardware devices were revealed? No.

Did you see how NERC responded for the first year or so? By covering their behinds, that is how they reacted.

Did you see how businesses reacted? By covering their bottom lines, that's how they reacted.

This is why I am saying I do not expect a panic anywhere when confronted with this new threat.
*************************************************************​***********
Corruptisima re publica plurimae leges. ~ Terence
Lil Sis

User ID: 11213558
United States
03/08/2015 03:34 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
Yawn everyone that knows anything knows the spyware is in the hardware and the data is sent back over the power lines using tech similar to ethernet over power socket.

[link to www.cnet.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 68514280


If I can buy a network that works on my household electricity, why do people not realize that the government can buy one that runs on the entire electical grid?

But the truth is they don't think that is the case. Not everybody knows it, only a few. :-(
*************************************************************​***********
Corruptisima re publica plurimae leges. ~ Terence
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 916264
United States
03/08/2015 03:34 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
The backdoors in military hardware are much more disconcerting than anything on my pc.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 66079880


That is the the right word "disconcerting" because a rogue or enemy hacking group could disable a national defense system with little effort.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 2501127
United States
03/08/2015 04:02 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
In Snowden docs,all phones essential have a NSA DARPA chip on the board. Suspected by Applebum, confirmed last year.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 62489899
Ireland
03/08/2015 04:51 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
Here is the original paper (very detailed)

[link to janhkrueger.de (secure)]

And here is an short article related to above

[link to phys.org]

Explaining their work further, the authors said that "In this paper we introduced a new type of sub-transistor level hardware Trojan that only requires modification of the dopant masks. No additional transistor gates are added and no other layout mask needs to be modified. Since only changes to the metal, polysilicon or active area can be reliably detected with optical inspection, our dopant Trojans are immune to optical inspection."

This type of Trojan under discussion is said to pose a great challenge. The authors commented that "They set a new lower bar on how much overhead can be expected from a hardware Trojan in practice (i.e. zero!)." The authors recommended that future work should include developing new methods to detect these "sub-transistor level hardware Trojans."
 Quoting:



If you allowed your chosen dual-citizens the authority over your hardware produced, then you can be assured that something like this or even more advanced is within your military hardware.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 68463931


Partially true and partially false. It is possible to embed nefarious instructions in, for example, the GPU on your graphics card, or the bios on you hard drive which do all manner of sneaky things.

However, in order to be effective, all of the other components would then have to collude the siphon any data collected back to NWO home base. Your graphics card is not directly to the intertubes, nor is your hard drive, nor any other component within your system with one exception. Your network card (or wifi or whatever you use to connect. In engineering circles, this is known as a single point of failure and it's a bad thing.

Therefore, I can easily stop any packets being transmitted which I don't like. Not filter them or censor them but make them never happen at all.

The upshot of all of this is that were the NSA, CIA, whoever even vaguely interested in, oh, I dunno, your facebook page, they won't be sneaking some weird code into your computer. They will simply go look at your facebook page. It's cheaper that way.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 67058418
United States
03/08/2015 04:58 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
Undetectable Hardware Backdoors = Anal Probe
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 68463931
Greece
03/08/2015 04:58 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
Here is the original paper (very detailed)

[link to janhkrueger.de (secure)]

And here is an short article related to above

[link to phys.org]

Explaining their work further, the authors said that "In this paper we introduced a new type of sub-transistor level hardware Trojan that only requires modification of the dopant masks. No additional transistor gates are added and no other layout mask needs to be modified. Since only changes to the metal, polysilicon or active area can be reliably detected with optical inspection, our dopant Trojans are immune to optical inspection."

This type of Trojan under discussion is said to pose a great challenge. The authors commented that "They set a new lower bar on how much overhead can be expected from a hardware Trojan in practice (i.e. zero!)." The authors recommended that future work should include developing new methods to detect these "sub-transistor level hardware Trojans."
 Quoting:



If you allowed your chosen dual-citizens the authority over your hardware produced, then you can be assured that something like this or even more advanced is within your military hardware.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 68463931


Partially true and partially false. It is possible to embed nefarious instructions in, for example, the GPU on your graphics card, or the bios on you hard drive which do all manner of sneaky things.

However, in order to be effective, all of the other components would then have to collude the siphon any data collected back to NWO home base. Your graphics card is not directly to the intertubes, nor is your hard drive, nor any other component within your system with one exception. Your network card (or wifi or whatever you use to connect. In engineering circles, this is known as a single point of failure and it's a bad thing.

Therefore, I can easily stop any packets being transmitted which I don't like. Not filter them or censor them but make them never happen at all.

The upshot of all of this is that were the NSA, CIA, whoever even vaguely interested in, oh, I dunno, your facebook page, they won't be sneaking some weird code into your computer. They will simply go look at your facebook page. It's cheaper that way.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 62489899


No you cannot. Unless you build your own hardware you connected between your network card or router and the line to your phone, inspecting the packets it is sending out.

Wireshark is for noobs

If your hardware has a trojan/backdoor, it could directly collect and send data of any of your hardware devices, including memory, directly to your modem and out into the internet.
It could also hide requests for such data sent to you.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 61764878
United States
03/08/2015 05:03 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
The backdoors in military hardware are much more disconcerting than anything on my pc.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 66079880


That is the the right word "disconcerting" because a rogue or enemy hacking group could disable a national defense system with little effort.
 Quoting: Jäger67


You mean China could clusterfuck the US because US has its Intel made in China? FACT.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 68035433
Puerto Rico
03/08/2015 05:23 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
Here is the original paper (very detailed)

[link to janhkrueger.de (secure)]

And here is an short article related to above

[link to phys.org]

Explaining their work further, the authors said that "In this paper we introduced a new type of sub-transistor level hardware Trojan that only requires modification of the dopant masks. No additional transistor gates are added and no other layout mask needs to be modified. Since only changes to the metal, polysilicon or active area can be reliably detected with optical inspection, our dopant Trojans are immune to optical inspection."

This type of Trojan under discussion is said to pose a great challenge. The authors commented that "They set a new lower bar on how much overhead can be expected from a hardware Trojan in practice (i.e. zero!)." The authors recommended that future work should include developing new methods to detect these "sub-transistor level hardware Trojans."
 Quoting:



If you allowed your chosen dual-citizens the authority over your hardware produced, then you can be assured that something like this or even more advanced is within your military hardware.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 68463931


I notified this to military brass in 2006 , they did not even look at it ...

LED lights contain kill switch in all of them ... as many other consumer products , so be sure to keep those old cars with no computers running ... and eliminate computers & electronics from all your stuff ...else you will be switched off by the command of your wall street kings ..

Fucked Under Command of Kings ( triple fuck ! )

dead3rastabanan
John Donson
User ID: 68457359
United States
03/08/2015 05:30 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
The backdoors in military hardware are much more disconcerting than anything on my pc.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 66079880


That is the the right word "disconcerting" because a rogue or enemy hacking group could disable a national defense system with little effort.
 Quoting: Jäger67


You mean China could clusterfuck the US because US has its Intel made in China? FACT.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 61764878


What I can tell you is that all desktop computers in the military are Dell computers. They are all made in China. You can surmise from that point forward.
But I will add that wireless signals can be encrypted and some agency would have to have a public and private key in order to decipher that info.
That's really hard to do because you can change your private key any time.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 24957083
United States
03/08/2015 05:34 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
The backdoors in military hardware are much more disconcerting than anything on my pc.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 66079880


That is the the right word "disconcerting" because a rogue or enemy hacking group could disable a national defense system with little effort.
 Quoting: Jäger67


You mean China could clusterfuck the US because US has its Intel made in China? FACT.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 61764878


Unless you're buying old ancient chips (That's the only facility Intel has in China), then no. All the brand new CPU's are fabricated in Oregon, Arizona or Ireland. They moved all their facilities out of third world countries due to the fact that quality control was seriously suffering for these new CPU's and third world countries do not understand what QA or QC is. They are then shipped to assembly plants in perhaps China or Malaysia, that's about it.

Western Digital the same thing. All their harddrives are QA and QC tested in Irvine because of lousy controls in third world countries.

Nvidia is already doing the same thing and pulling out of its Asian sites and hinting or already is using Intel's facilities in the US.

The problem is, Asia is not setup for high tech manufacturing yet for such sophisticated goods. Some people find the waste and duds acceptable, but for computer hardware, it begins to be extremely expensive and third world countries have no setup to deal with reducing wastes. (By waste I mean, manufacturing defects, wafers being cut out too much, duds, etc). They don't have the skills or experience to do it unlike the US and Europe. This waste also allowed for a lot of the super cheap products you might be using. But reduced waste is going to affect this market dramatically.

So yes, perhaps your hardware is assembled in Chinese facilities, but the manufacturing is more likely done in Europe or the US. I can also tell you the assembly and testing lines are going to be moving out of China too, due to, you guessed it QA and QC problems and major advancements in automation, making use of low skilled cheap Chinese labor pointless. Thus reducing transportation and logistical costs dramatically by having facilities in the markets you're serving.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 68463931
Greece
03/08/2015 05:50 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
CEO of Intel is Jewish by the way. Just saying...


Andrew Stephen ("Andy") Grove (born 2 September 1936), is a Hungarian-born American businessman, engineer, and author. He is a science pioneer in the semiconductor industry. He escaped from Communist-controlled Hungary at the age of 20 and moved to the United States where he finished his education. He later became CEO of Intel Corporation and helped transform the company into the world's largest manufacturer of semiconductors.

Grove was born András István Gróf, to a middle-class Jewish family in Budapest, Hungary, the son of Maria and George Gróf.
Lil Sis

User ID: 11213558
United States
03/08/2015 05:54 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
The backdoors in military hardware are much more disconcerting than anything on my pc.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 66079880


That is the the right word "disconcerting" because a rogue or enemy hacking group could disable a national defense system with little effort.
 Quoting: Jäger67


That might be even more disconcerting, it might be scary!
*************************************************************​***********
Corruptisima re publica plurimae leges. ~ Terence
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 64469937
United States
03/08/2015 06:15 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Undetectable Hardware Backdoors
The entire computerized world is built on spyware.

Facebook, Twitter, Google, and thousand of others are created to spy on everyone. The sheeple just do not want to wake up. We live in a spy society. Everything you do is watched and known, and logged.

The only way to escape it is to live off grid and away from computers.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 13127957


+100 for the truth!





GLP