So, Is It Faith, Or Is It Works?????? It's BOTH!!!!!!

"That's how I know she can be beaten. Because she's a fanatic. And the fanatic is always concealing a secret doubt." John le Carre

"for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

"... if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you"

The Bible Dictionary defines grace as: (emphasis added)
"grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts."

Have you done all that you can do?
Have you denied yourself all ungodliness?
Are you obedient?
Have you expended your best effort?

Edits mine [link to www.afterallwecando.com]

28 Then said they unto him, "What shall we make/do, that we might work the works of God"?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, "This is the work of God, that ye believe into whom he hath sent".

"YOUR KINGDOM come
YOUR WILL become"

"my food is that I should make/do the will of the one having sent me and should complete/perfect his works"

"I do not seek the will of me but rather the will of the one having sent me"

"For I have descended from heaven, not that I should make/do the will of me, but the will of the one having sent me. Moreover, this is the will of the one having sent me - that all that he has given me, nothing should perish out of it, but rather I will raise it up at the last day. Indeed, this is the will of my Father, that all beholding the Son and BELIEVING into Him, should have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day"

Because he makes a very good point. If God requires works for salvation, his making an "exception" here, as well as any other death bed conversion. He was saved without a single work other than believing. It is by grace, not by works. And it is man's pride that makes him think he can contribute to his salvation.
And I am sorry to tell you, but we all murder, cheat, lie, slander etc even after we are saved because we still have a body of flesh. Remember, Jesus said just abstaining from thee sins in the physical world is not enough. If we thought it, we committed it in our heart. And keep in mind, gossip, contentious attitudes, pride, strife, gluttony, and a whole host of other "little" sins are listed right along with the "big" ones you mention. The floppy lip is just as guilty as the pulled trigger.

So, is the youth leader of the christian church, who molests children, going to heaven should he die today?

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

^^^^^ This ^^^^^

How many times is verse 1-9 quoted absent of verse 10 which clearly states "we should walk in them" ???

Indeed, this is the will of my Father, that all beholding the Son and BELIEVING into Him, should have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

I agree with your first assessment. However, the next part is where we are going wrong. We should STOP sinning as He gives us that command - "From now, go and sin no more."

He knows the thoughts of our hearts, so if we mistakenly sin, He will bring it to our attention so it can be corrected. However, if we KNOWINGLY sin, I do not think that is covered.

If we BELIEVE what He says, we would DO it.

If He says the sky is blue, BELIEVE it is blue. Then, no one can come along and tell you it is really purple.

Or, how about the Westboro Baptist crew, you think Jesus will welcome them with open arms saying 'well done good and faithful servant?"

I don't know. God knows who are his. I would say externally he sure isn't bearing the fruit of a saved person and it is unlikely that he is.
But do you want to be judged as a murderer next time you are angry with a brother or sister? Suppose you die in the middle of those thoughts? Murder happens in the heart.

I don't see being angry with someone the same as a child molester......but that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

I'm saying many are christian in name only.....their lives DO NOT REFLECT CHRIST AT ALL. In fact, many of their lives reflect satan instead, hence the child molester example.

Umm.. sorry but this verse doesn't support the false works+grace gospel being taught here, notice that last little bit..

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Before Ordained = Election/Predestination

Last Edited by DREADN0T on 06/12/2015 11:55 AM

What is Love beyond Acceptance Of God's Will?

Love is unconditional and complete if it is True.
Love is Trusting needs no proof for why it is.
Love is surrendered and accepting without need to prevail in terms of outcome.

Can go on much further, but only person we are able to Fully Love in scope of our lives is Father-God. Can't Love Jesus and not Love The Father. No human is Perfect in all respects. No human is worthy of our Complete Trust and Confidence.

It is through your Love For God that you are willing to submit and subordinate your will to HIS. Your Love that brings you willingness to take action.


Yet, without action, without lifting-up The Son Of Man we cannot manifest the Love we claim we have for God...

Faith w/o works is dead.
Dead meaning not alive...
Faith w/o Leap Of Faith is not nothing, but neither is it Enabling.


Jesus' Witness is that we who Love God, "MUST BE Born-Again~!"

In this Spiritual Love, our commitment and Trust, once acted upon brings us a Temporal Reality of God's Presence Within us. This is the reality of being Born-Again. Knowing God, Living In and Through HIM...

HIS Grace Enables our action, commitment, Trust to be Fulfilled. We claim our share of HIS infinite Mercy and Grace when we make our surrender. Giving self unto Father completely and asking only to Do HIS Will is how we manifest our heart so that we may become HIS.

Until our Love For God is manifested and our hearts changed by HIS Deliverance we are simply unfulfilled vessels of promise which have yet to become all we can be Through HIM.

Jesus said if we are angry with our brothers, we are guilty of murder. Sin is sin. There are not levels with God. Thus gossip is listed alongside murder and adultery. It is very important that that is grasped. When realize that God forgave us of countless acts of murder, countless episodes of sexual immorality, etc, we start relying completely on God's grace because, sorry to say, most of the time most of us aren't great examples of Christ. Again, salvation is completely by grace, and it is only exemplified through our works, but the works come after salvation has taken hold.

I think people are getting tripped up on the word "works". Replace the word "works" with the word "obedience" or even the word "love" because obeying Jesus's commandments is actually obedience and love.

People actually disagree with obedience and love? Really?

Right, but if you continue on with living a life of evil deeds after accepting Jesus and repenting, then you're not forgiven! You're not saved, you're not one of His children!

That's what the bible says, but nobody wants to hear it!

Not sure what your point is, but love is the primary fruit of the Holy Spirit. If you look at 1st CCorinthians 13, all the fruits of the spirit are wrapped up by love. You cannot bear the fruits of the Holy Spirit until you have already been born again. It is impossible to love anyone unless you truly have the Holy Spirit already within you.

I definitely believe it is not up to us to place a yolk or burden upon anybody.

All this creates is a stumbling block to those who might believe, but see some of the pre-requisites are not gonna happen.

This is for Jesus and God to place upon their hearts, not man.

The holy spirit guided me - Acts 15:8

Trying to place a yoke on me 40 yrs ago by those who think they know best, made me turn my back on Jesus.

It was his gentle wooing that brought me back.

Acts 15

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Please show me one place in the bible that says we can/must "accept" Jesus..

Hebrews 10:26 "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,"

/thread

The reason why people argue back and forth is because they don't know how to reconcile God's truth. That's because they look at salvation as a binary/either-or kind of proposition, but it's not. Salvation is life! Life is present-tense, ongoing, which cannot be expressed in binary/either-or terms.

This is a teaching I shared in my "I'm a serious Christian, ask me anything" thread. It clarifies how one should look at salvation:

Short Answer: Our life begins by accepting and believing in Jesus' atoning work of the cross to cover our sins. This is known as justification. There is no other way to begin life in Christ, no other way to get access to Father God. Then, as we walk this faith out, we are "sanctified" and changed and transformed. This is proof that we are living this life, not the work that justifies us in the sight of God. Finally, we will be glorified and given sinless bodies.

Long Answer: A lot of people, because of natural limitations related to our perception of time, like to think of salvation as a point in time in our past or perhaps even a future event. Someone may say, "Oh, I got saved back at camp-meeting when I was 16." Another may say, "I'll be saved when I make it to heaven."

Both of these perspectives are inaccurate. If you read through the New Testament and note every reference to salvation, you will notice that it is spoken of in past, present, and future tense.

This is because salvation is not a point in time, salvation is life! And that life is found only in Jesus Christ.

To look at it as if it was merely a point in time in the past would be like burying a loved one and only putting their birth year on the tombstone. It makes no sense.

Salvation is present-tense ongoing. Just like life is. This "life" has three phases: Justification, sanctification, and glorification. Allow me to elaborate.

Salvation always starts with what's known as "justification."

Justification can only happen one way: By the shed blood of Jesus!

That's why Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one gets to the Father, but through me."

What He meant by that was if you want to get in right standing with Father God, you have to have your past sins washed clean, and become robed with Jesus' righteousness. Just believe Jesus died for your sins. This is like a backstage pass that gets us access to Father God when we pray by faith.

What is the purpose of justification? The ability to worship Father God! There is no other reason for anyone to be justified. Why would they bother if they weren't interested in worshiping Father God?

This is why Jesus said that the Father was seeking people to "worship" Him in Spirit and in truth.

He was describing the next phase of salvation which is walking out that "life" in Christ.

This phase is called sanctification.

Sanctificationis our relationship with God, based upon truth (we need Jesus to help us change and grow), and empowered by His Spirit. It is here where we learn of His ways and become transformed more into the likeness of Jesus. This is where we grow up in this life so we start looking, acting, and being like sons and daughters. He's our "Father," after all. This is a family.

This is why Jesus often taught about salvation using plant metaphors. Plants live!

Now before I get to Jesus' teaching about life, let me point out that because of "justification" we are not walking on eggshells as we are "sanctified." There is no cause for alarm or reason to fret about our standing. We should rest in His work of the cross, and walk out our relationship with Him. The more we understand, the more we grasp His mercy, love, and compassion for us.

You can't "lose" your salvation, is what I'm saying. But you can get to a point where you don't care anymore and walk away from it. That's why there are so many warnings regarding "falling away."

That's why we're encouraged in the scriptures to endure and overcome. There's a spiritual battle raging.

It's crucial we trust what Jesus did on the cross, and continue on no matter how difficult things get or how much we make mistakes. We go boldly to the throne of grace in times of need, we don't hide away and cover up with a fig-leaf if we're stumbling or struggling with a sin. Or just as bad, walk away and begin to wantonly sin presuming God doesn't care about sin. He does. Sin is destructive, and He doesn't want His children wallowing in it. Especially since He made a way to overcome it.

Jesus' taught at great length about "abiding." "Abiding" is walking out this "life" by simple faith, devotion to studying His word, a regular prayer relationship, ministry to others, and fellowship with other believers. It's not complicated at all. But it is a relationship. And you're either in a relationship with someone or your not.

Jesus also used the metaphor of a vine, Father God being the "vine dresser" relating to people who become justified by faith, but walk away from the faith and refuse to abide.
If someone starts out, but then refuses to continue on in the faith with this relationship, Father God will cut that "leaf" off from the Vine (which is a metaphor for Jesus).

Our life is born out of our connection to Jesus. Jesus is the vine, we are the branch. This is "abiding" as He put it. This is life!

Eventually, all believers who live this life will be given glorified bodies. This is known as "glorification."

Glorification is when we will be free from the sinful nature of these current flesh vessels. The glorified body has no blood in it.

In the Old Testament, God made it clear that "life" was in the blood. He makes references to this regarding animals, but it's true enough about people, too.

Moreover, sin is in the blood of every human being. It's why we have this fallen nature.

When Jesus visited after rising from the dead He had His glorified body, and there was no blood in it. Thomas was able to put his hand in the holes, even. No blood!

Why? Because our glorified bodies won't need blood as our life is found in the Spirit!

So there you have it, salvation is ongoing and according to our freewill choice. God will never force us to be in a relationship, though He always goes after His straying sheep.

We must be willing to return and fight through the spiritual battles using Jesus' teachings as our guide and empowered by His Holy Spirit.

This is why the baptism of the Holy Spirit is so important. He has given us the power, all we need to is ask for it and receive it by faith.

Now the devil hates this teaching. There are a lot of Christians who don't understand salvation andwho get really antsy when they think about it because of decades of bad teaching on what salvation actually is.

To them I say, "This is not a debate thread!" If you want to debate, make your own thread. Thanks for respecting that in advance.

Last Edited by FireInCairo on 06/12/2015 12:14 PM

I posted a bunch of them in the OP. Go back and re-read it.

"faith without works is dead." = Without actions proving your faith is genuine, your faith is really not genuine.


Works is accurately translated to 'actions'. We are not judged/rewarded by our actions alone, but primarily by the motives behind the actions. This only God can do.

God is that little voice telling you what to do. Most people ignore His voice, therefore they can't be obedient. Adam and Eve were disobedient. Abraham was the father of faith because of his OBEDIENCE. He did what that little voice told him to do. He didn't listen to the "authorities", the "experts", the "officials", the "msm", twitter or facebook. He listened to the voice of God that lives in all of us. Unfortunately, the majority of people are listening to the voices of everything but God's voice, within them.

Faith is DOING what you believe.

Many people are going to be surprised, when they don't make it and wonder why???

You did nothing to build God's kingdom (rule) on Earth. Why should you enjoy an eternity of blissfulness??? What kind of God do you people think God is???

He lived by HIS OWN LAWS....and you think you deserve special treatment? hahahahahahhahahahahaa

BTW: the "new law" is to love. And, as you can see...society is a HUGE FAIL, in that commandment!

How much easier do you want God to make it. We can't even love each other. And you want "Heaven"? Again...hahahahahahahahhahahahaha

You better REPENT (change your thinking), and start expelling those devils that are destroying our planet; homosexuals included!

Excellent and well written!!!!!!!!!

It is a process, that's why it says "those who endure to the end will be saved" and "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" and the parable of the seeds falling on different kinds of soil.

That one parable of the different types of soil demonstrate right there that not everyone makes it....some seed falls on bad soil, thorny soil and so on.

Not everyone that calls themselves a christian really is one of His people.

DR3 is this KJV?
What the flip?

James 2
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Could it be that men just want an excuse to contiue their evil acts?

God will not be mocked.

Right!

In our world culture the Golden Rule is universally known. Good works may be practiced by anyone who understands this principle. Faith in some supernatural entity is NOT required. Humans know what's right and wrong. They know what's good and bad, without needing to rely on the slave morality that religion teaches.

Last Edited by dogman17 on 06/12/2015 12:30 PM

Takes HEART to take action, make commitment, and Come Unto The Father.


Jesus Witnesses HE is only looking for those who See/Hear The Gospel with their heart, rather than their head, in Matt ch 13:
10. And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11. He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.


13. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15. For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Got the Heart to take action? Lifting-up The Son Of Man?

Got the Heart to Trust God Completely with every aspect of your life?


Got the Heart to Hear/See God's Truth and get what Paul called "circumcision of the heart"? That is to follow your heart and make your surrender.

Carnality is your enemy and only God The Father Can Deliver you from it.


Abiding in God's Will is what Jesus Witnesses in John 17.


So many paradoxes. Trust God Completely and give HIM your life, they all resolve. Everything resolves... You Brought Into HIM and Knowing, Doing HIS Will, living without sin.

Maranatha!!!

Thanks for the first sensible post of this thread.