Reasons to change the standard of tuning from 440 to 432 | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 133770 United States 09/16/2006 05:01 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
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DanG User ID: 135265 United States 09/16/2006 05:03 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 144370 Ireland 09/16/2006 05:33 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | 3. 432 is found at countless ancient sacred sites Furia's virtual tour of sacred sites along with such key locations as the Great Pyramid in Egypt, 432 is found at the largest Buddhist temple in the world The borobudur - At the Borobudur the amount of statues at "The temple of countless Buddhas" is 432 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 144206What do you mean, 432 is "found at countless ancient sacred sites?" I don't know what that means. |
Dilatoriness User ID: 51202 Austria 09/16/2006 05:47 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | quick and easy - tune down 1/2 step. Quoting: DanG 135265go on - try it. A half tone would be much more than that from 440 to 432. Divide 440 or 432 by 1,06, the twelfth root of 2, means 2^(1/12) to get a half tone lower. 432 would result in 407,5 and 440 in 415 Hz so tuning it from E to E flat has nothing to do with this slight retuning mentioned in the op. I am here to challenge your indoctrinated false belief that flaming queens don't use shovels ... |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 144382 United Kingdom 09/16/2006 05:59 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The ONLY valid reason for changing the standard would be a musical one, e.g., it's easier for tuning purposes. The reasons you state are totally irrelevant to musicians and are examples of disconnected, woo-woo thinking to be find here at GLP. |
Ningishiddza User ID: 124957 United States 09/16/2006 06:45 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The ONLY valid reason for changing the standard would be a musical one, e.g., it's easier for tuning purposes. The reasons you state are totally irrelevant to musicians and are examples of disconnected, woo-woo thinking to be find here at GLP. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 144382How do you know it isn't easier? Musicians use 440 because they were socialized to use 440. A counter-socialization movement could easily change that. Besides, 440 is used only because it was cheaper and easier to make pitch-pipes at that frequency. You obviously haven't seen a dozen drunken professional musicians in an out and out brawl over the interpretation of passages from pieces written by Mozart or Beethoven. No one alive today has ever heard a piece written by the old masters and conducted by them, therefore, we have no idea how those pieces were intended to sound, we can only guess, which is individual interpretation. Americanii-s de vina futu-i in gura sa-i fut |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 67387 United States 09/16/2006 06:49 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
andy thomas User ID: 144397 United States 09/16/2006 06:55 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | according to my calculations, if you tuned to e-flat on the guitar, in standard tuning you would have an a-flat as your '2nd' string. but if you are yet assuming 'a' to equal 440, the a-flat string in an e-flat tuning would be roughly 421.6666 cycles in either event tuning to e-flat doesn't appear to result in, '432 tuning'... in other words, 432 is not a half-step below 440... rather, it is a some kind of 'semi-tone in distance'... here is another thing... if one is using a 12-tone scale, why not have notes 'a' through 'l' with no sharps or flats? a staff with perhaps 6 lines? as it is, the sharp-flat system with the 5-line/4-space staff is a fascinating invention... apparently a way of at once musical shorthand and 'visual compression' for those who care to learn it .... but a question persists: does it represent the 'natural universe' or is it rather a 'cultural convention?' another key to all of this... it is the tri-tone... that frequency directly between any given 2 octave notes... for example the d# or e-flat between 'a 440' and 'a 880'... it used to be 'illegal' (during the inquisition or somesuch) because it was thought to be 'the devil's note'... as it turns out, the 'doubly-diminished 7' chord gives us a 'haunted house' sound... for instance, the simple g# b d f combination found in 'a, harmonic minor'... and here we haven't even delved much into semi-tones... scales with more than 12 tones.... as sometimes found in both the near and far east... did you know that steve vai built one guitar which was divided into quarter tones?... whereas the standard, 'western' guitar is divided into half-tones (or half-steps)... his special guitar broke it down into quarters... 24-frets per octave... that must have been a long neck on that bad boy! the standard, 'grand piano' is an insrument of astounding depth and beauty... yet it is rigid in its 12-tone structure... the standard electric guitar, with its 12-fret setup, appears at first glance to be regimented like the piano... yet the use of 'string bends,' 'whammy bars,' and 'false harmonics' allow the guitarist access to a dizzying array of available tones... of course 'modern,' 'keyboardists' may have the most flexibility of all, what with all of the advances in synthesizer, sequencer, and sampler technology and whatnot... it is interesting in any event; the op's original premise that the 440 tuning is hard on the human voice, and that basing 'everything' musical off of 432 rather than 440 would put western music as a whole more 'into sync' with the universe at large... interestingly, if we take a=440 and of course a=220, then the intervals break down into 18.33333 cycles apart... 220 (the distance between the 2 'a' notes) divided by 12 is 18.33333 it is fascinating to note that if we were to employ a=432 and by definition, a=216... that the intervals would be a round number, 18... 216/12 = 18 and 432/12 = (36 of course) fascinating... perhaps there is some 'musical conspiracy' to be uncovered, or is it all simple an 'accident' of hystory? finally, here is another thing to consider, whether in a=440 or a=432... the 7-note scales derived from the '12-tone palette' of notes... professor bainbridge has devised 3 new types of minor: "dynamic minor" ... example based on the key of 'a-flat': a-flat b c d e f g this one could be explained in terms of western theory as 'a, harmonic minor with the 'tonic' ('a') removed and the g retained, and the g# renamed to a-flat'... this key wishes to resolve to either the 'a minor triad' or - perhaps secondarily - to the 'f minor triad'... interestingly, the 'a minor triad' doesn't even exist within the structure of the key.... let's now look at professor bainbridge's, "contratonic" minor: here in the key of 'e minor' e f## g## a# b# c# d# this one is amazing... i have not yet found any way to describe it in classical theoretical terms... let's have a look at 'kinetic minor,' also discovered/invented by professor bainbridge: in the key of 'd minor' d e# f# g# a b c interestingly, this one is in 'd minor' but it looks like 'a, melodic minor with an e# thrown in'... or 'let's play in a, melodic minor but with an f (e#) note instead of an e note' as an offshoot of these keys by professor bainbridge, i have 'thrown together' 'astral minor' which in the key of 'a minor' is: a b c d e f gb described as, 'let's take 'a minor' with an f and an f# but leave out g and g#' or 'unorthodox minor' which is a 9-note scale... in 'a minor' it is: a b c d e f f# g g# now it could be said that this is simply 'melodic minor without the '6th and 7th sharped when going up, normal when going down' rule'... when notating this one in 9-note fashion, the notes are: a b c d e f g-flat h (g) i (g#) interestingly, in all of these new minor keys ... whether bainbridge's discoveries or my own meanderings... if you 'build out' the triads... it's some crazy stuff... for example, in 'e contratonic minor' you have: e g## b# (could be stated as 'a minor') f## a# c# ('g diminished') g## b# d# ('a diminished') a# c# e ('a# diminished') b# d# f## ('c minor') c# e g## ('A Major') d# f## a# ('D# Major') it's phreaking brilliant! bainbridge's are perhaps more interesting in that they all eschew 'consecutive half-steps' so the question there is, why were these keys - particularly professor bainbridge's - seemingly ignored in western musical theory? in any event, going to a=432 seems like it would be a good move... |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 2534 United States 09/16/2006 07:07 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of a more natural resonance. As long as we're at it, we sould shitcan the equal tempered diatonic scale and move to what Pythagoras intended, which is a true tempered scale. I would also like to hear 1/4 tone scales like Eastern music has. See if you can throw that in too please. |
andy thomas User ID: 144397 United States 09/16/2006 07:23 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | i was mistaken about how to determine the freqs... i had thought it a simple matter of dividing the interval between two octaves by 12... for example, 220/12 or 440/12... apparently it's not that simple... which begs the question: if we did base everything on 432 instead of 440, would it be that simple?... would we then be able to simply divide 216 for example into 12 (=18)? anyway, here are some freqs: Note Frequency A_ 27.500000000000000 A# 29.135235094880619 B_ 30.867706328507756 C_ 32.703195662574829 C# 34.647828872109012 D_ 36.708095989675945 D# 38.890872965260113 E_ 41.203444614108741 F_ 43.653528929125485 F# 46.249302838954299 G_ 48.999429497718661 G# 51.913087197493142 A_ 55.000000000000000 A# 58.270470189761239 B_ 61.735412657015513 C_ 65.406391325149658 C# 69.295657744218024 D_ 73.416191979351890 D# 77.781745930520227 E_ 82.406889228217482 F_ 87.307057858250971 F# 92.498605677908599 G_ 97.998858995437323 G# 103.826174394986284 A_ 110.000000000000000 A# 116.540940379522479 B_ 123.470825314031027 C_ 130.812782650299317 C# 138.591315488436048 D_ 146.832383958703780 D# 155.563491861040455 E_ 164.813778456434964 F_ 174.614115716501942 F# 184.997211355817199 G_ 195.997717990874647 G# 207.652348789972569 A_ 220.000000000000000 A# 233.081880759044958 B_ 246.941650628062055 C_ 261.625565300598634 This is "middle C" C# 277.182630976872096 D_ 293.664767917407560 D# 311.126983722080910 E_ 329.627556912869929 F_ 349.228231433003884 F# 369.994422711634398 G_ 391.995435981749294 G# 415.304697579945138 A_ 440.000000000000000 A# 466.163761518089916 B_ 493.883301256124111 C_ 523.251130601197269 C# 554.365261953744192 D_ 587.329535834815120 D# 622.253967444161821 E_ 659.255113825739859 F_ 698.456462866007768 F# 739.988845423268797 G_ 783.990871963498588 G# 830.609395159890277 A_ 880.000000000000000 A# 932.327523036179832 B_ 987.766602512248223 C_ 1046.502261202394538 C# 1108.730523907488384 D_ 1174.659071669630241 D# 1244.507934888323642 E_ 1318.510227651479718 F_ 1396.912925732015537 F# 1479.977690846537595 G_ 1567.981743926997176 G# 1661.218790319780554 A_ 1760.000000000000000 A# 1864.655046072359665 B_ 1975.533205024496447 C_ 2093.004522404789077 C# 2217.461047814976769 D_ 2349.318143339260482 D# 2489.015869776647285 E_ 2637.020455302959437 F_ 2793.825851464031075 F# 2959.955381693075191 G_ 3135.963487853994352 G# 3322.437580639561108 A_ 3520.000000000000000 A# 3729.310092144719331 B_ 3951.066410048992894 C_ 4186.009044809578154 [link to www.math.niu.edu] |
andy thomas User ID: 144397 United States 09/16/2006 07:27 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | whoah... hadn't thought of how this might affect woodwinds and brass... "Keyboard instruments like your piano made things more complicated. Each piano key participates in a number of different chords, and it turns out that the key would have to be tuned slightly differently for each chord. Around the time of Bach, there was a lot of debate about this, and it was decided to go with a compromise called "equal tempering" that has each note a little bit off from what it should be, so that each chord will sound okay, though none is perfect." [link to mathforum.org] |
lamontcranston User ID: 108959 United States 09/16/2006 08:27 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | 3. 432 is found at countless ancient sacred sites Furia's virtual tour of sacred sites along with such key locations as the Great Pyramid in Egypt, 432 is found at the largest Buddhist temple in the world The borobudur - At the Borobudur the amount of statues at "The temple of countless Buddhas" is 432 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 144206I am not musically informed enough to follow this entire argument, but here's some interesting info re an "ancient sacred site", complete w/music in which "... the musical note A below middle C vibrates at 440 KHz and produces a shape that looks like a rhombus.", whatever that may mean, & the music sounds pretty good to my untrained ears. [link to heritage.scotsman.com] |
smasheasy User ID: 363033 United States 01/27/2008 02:42 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | This whole thread is very fascinating to me. I could tune my celtic harp to 432...easily with a strobe-tuner. But not everyone has a strobe tuner! Most tuner's won't let you vary from 440. That aside, the dynamic, kinetic, melodic, augmented melodic (that one's my own) and contratonic minor scales you mention are ones I've been using because my harp levers allow me only "so much" variation on songs. It's been really expansive for my work, and knocks down some of the preceonceptions that "music theory" taught me at college, etc. It is ALL just "theory" after all :) And the music on the page is just "notes" to remind you how to think of it - how it's supposed to go, to a degree anyway. And true to the person who wrote that we don't know what classical music was supposed to sound like. We only have their "notes". And...that's a good thing! It forces you to make it your own. Speaking of which, I'm off to re-tune my harp. Will bookmark this page and let you know how it sounds when I record it! In all fairness, I should say, I'm primarily a flutist, and keyboardist. Harp is a recent musical acquisition, and I'm happy to be in a wildly experimental phase!! So thanks for the random-googled-input. (of course, I was looking for something totally unrelated.....) |
smasheasy User ID: 363033 United States 01/27/2008 02:46 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 363042 Australia 01/27/2008 03:03 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | This guy [link to users.rcn.com] makes guitars with different tunings (prime, 21-tone, harmonic series) There's a whole load of MP3's you can listen to as well on his site showing how this music sounds. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 350263 United States 01/27/2008 03:05 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Parksy User ID: 131494 United States 01/27/2008 03:14 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Sorry its long but i was in a discussion last year about this subject and here are some notes i collected. Let's ask what is a Herz? A whole cycle of a wave in one second. What is a second then? 1/60 of a minute or as it's definition - the fraction 1/31,556,925.9747 of the tropical year for 1900 January 0 at 12 hours ephemeris time? As for our tuning issue, Let's say A = 432. This will mean the following octave of frequencies: E = 432 x 3 / 2 = 324 B = 324 x 3 / 2 = 486 F# = 486 x 3 / 2 / 2 = 364.5 C# = 364.5 x 3 / 2 / 2 = 273.375 G# = 273.375 x 3 / 2 = 410.0625 D# = 410.0625 x 3 / 2 / 2 = 307.546875 A# = 307.546875 x 3 / 2 = 461.3203125 F = 461.3203125 x 3 / 2 = 345.990234375 (~346) C = 346 x 3 / 2 / 2 = 259.5 G = 259.5 x 3 / 2 = 389.25 D = 389.25 x 3 / 2 / 2 = 291.9375 A = 291.9375 x 3 / 2 = 437.9 Let's say A = 440. This will mean the following octave of frequencies(using opposite direction of division by 3): D = 440 / 3 * 2 = 293.3333... G = 293.3333... / 3 * 2 * 2 = 391.1111... C = 391.1111... / 3 * 2 = 260.740740... F = 260.740740... / 3 * 2 * 2 = 347.6543... A# = 347.6543... / 3 * 2 * 2 = 463.539 D# = 463.539 / 3 * 2 = ~309 G# = 309 / 3 * 2 * 2 = 412 C# = 412 / 3 * 2 = 274.6666... F# = 274.6666... / 3 * 2 * 2 = 366.2222... B = 366.2222... / 3 * 2 * 2 = ~488 E = 488 / 3 * 2 = 325.3333... A = 325.3333 / 3 * 2 * 2 = 433.777.... Notice the similar C notes, and notice the other notes - esspecially A. So maybe the 3/2 way of doing these things is wrong... Which tone is 1 Hz? Why A should be 432Hz? Let's bring this A to its first tone by dividing by 2 untill we reach a fraction point: 432 / 2 / 2 / 2 / 2 = 27 Should I use 3/2 method again? to reach D I'll divide by 3: 27 / 3 = 9 to reach G I'll divide by 3 again: 9 / 3 = 3 to reach C I'll divide by 3 once again: 3 / 3 = 1 Does this mean C will be the tone of 1Hz? And if D is 9Hz, then let's multiply it by 2 to reach a higher D tone: 9 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 = 288Hz We want to reinvent the evenly tempered scale of tones? What frequncy table do you suggest we shall use with the 'new' 432Hz of A? I'd appreciate the input. -Adding the digits of any note in 432 adds to 9 -There a 9 levels of conscious awarness (underworlds).................................. -Scales are 7 notes and 6 intervals = 13 events = one octave -There are 7 days and 6 nights to every conscious level (Underworld) = 13 events = also one octave............................ -Pinnacle events are always on the 5th day and 5th night. -Musicians have the "Cycle of Fifths"...................................... -Music has 3 note triads that when played in 432 cover all the harmonic octaves that cannot be reproduced with A-440hz. and when you hear the word triad you instantly think of the triangle. [link to www.aleph9.com] C - Mars D - Sol E - Mercury F# - Venus G# - Moon A - Saturn A# - Jupiter C - Aries C# - Taurus D - Gemini D# - Cancer E - Leo F - Virgo F# - Libra G - Scorpio G# - Sagittarius A - Capricorn A# - Aquarius B - Pisces Saturn 69.3 BPM Moon 98.6 BPM Mercury 66.2 BPM Venus 103.7 BPM Sun 118.3 BPM Mars 67.8 BPM Jupiter 86.1 BPM Nepturne 99.1 BPM Pluto 65.7 BPM Uranus 97.2 BPM Aleph E Air Beth E Mercury Gimel G# Moon Daleth F# Venus Heh C Aries Vav C# Taurus Zayin D Gemini Cheth D# Cancer Teth E Leo Yod F Virgo Kaph A# Jupiter Lamed F# Libra Mem G# Water Nun G Scoprio Samekh G# Sagittarius Ayin A Capricorn Peh C Mars Tzaddi A# Aquarius Qoph B Pisces Resh D Sun Shin C Fire Tav A Saturn Elemental Notes: C - Fire E - Air G# - Water A - Earth Alchemical Notes: C - Sulfur E - Mercury G# - Salt Tarot Correspondences: The Fool E The Magus E High Preistess G# Empress F# Emperor C Hierophant C# Lovers D Chariot D# Strength E The Hermit F Wheel of Fortune A# Justice F# The Hanged Man G# Death G Temperance G# The Devil A The Tower C The Star A# The Moon B The Sun D Judgement C The Universe A Color Note Interp 1 Interp 2 Red C Mars Mars Red-Orange C# Orange D Mercury Sun Yellow E Sun Mercury Yellow-Green F Green F# Venus Venus Bue-Green G Blue G# Jupiter Moon Blue-Violet A Saturn Saturn Violet A# Moon Jupiter Red-Violet B We'll Start with Chakra-Color,Their ELF waves-And Musical Note Correspondences Root Red 8hz C Svadhisthana Orange 9hz D Solar Plexus Yellow 10hz E Heart Green 10.5hz F Throat Blue 12hz G 3rd eye/Brow Indigo 13hz A Crown White 15hz B Physical Plane/Body Root Chakra Lower Plane Sound: akin to a low rumbling thunder Higher Plane Sound: soft whistling sound Astral Plane/Body Svadhisthana Chakra Lower Plane Sound: Roar of the ocean Higher Plane Sound: akin to gentle wind blowing through tress Mental Plane/Body Solar Plexus Lower Plane Sound: Bell/Gong Sound Higher Plane Sound: Waterfall, Rushing Water Intuitive Plane/Body Heart Chakra Lower Plane Sound: buzzing, like a light swarming of bees Higher Plane Sound: Flute Like Tones Spiritual Plane/Body Throat Chakra Lower Plane Sound: Wind Higher Plane Sound: Humming, "ohm" Collective Mind Plane/Body: 3rd Eye, the Brow Chakra Lower Plane Sound: Similiar to distant violins carried by the wind Higher Plane Sound: Similiar to deep woodwinds Divine Plane/Body: Crown Chakra Lower Plane Sound: Soft "huuuu..." Higher Plane Sound: All sound and no sound felt as opposed to heard Root Saturn Prithivi (earth) Lead Svadhisthana Mars Apas (water) Iron Solar Plexus Jupiter Tejas (fire) Tin Heart Sun Vayu (air) Gold Throat Venus Akasha(Spirit-Ether) Copper 3rd Eye Moon All 5 Tattwas Synthesized Silver Crown Mercury Singularity presented as a point Quicksilver Letter Astrological Musical Note English Equivilant Un Air E A Pe Mercury E B Ged Luna G# G Gal Venus F# D Graph Aries C E Orth Taurus C# F Ceph Gemini D Z Na-Hath Cancer D# H Gon Virgo F I, J, Y Veh Jupiter A# C, K Ur Libra F# L Tal Water G# M Drun Scorpio G N Pal Sagittarius G# X Med Capricorn A O Mals Mars C P Ger Aquarius A# Q Don Pisces B R Fam Sol D S Gisa Fire C T Vau Saturn A U, V, W Reptilian Brain Beta 13-40hz Limbic System Alpha 8-13hz Neo-Mammalion Theta 4-8hz 4th Brain (crown chakrish in nature) Delta 0-4hz 5-7th Ketheric Brains Slower than Delta [link to www.hinduism.co.za] Determination of the pitches for each chakra note Chakra Location Petals Association Colour Tone Sahasrara above head 1000 transcendent gold 486 Guru above head 12 transcendent silver Nirvana crown 100 mind origin white Indu forehead 16 buddhi Manas forehead 6 chitta Ajna brow 2 manas violet 432 Talu/Lalana roof of mouth 12 or 64 Vishuddha throat 16 space blue 405 Anahata heart 12 air green 370 Hrit below heart 8 Manipura sternum base 10 fire yellow 324 Svadhistana below navel 6 water orange 288 Muladhara base of spine 4 earth red 270 |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 363042 Australia 01/27/2008 08:25 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | 350263 - yes this is a conspiracy site - so, what do you think of the fact that the musical scale has been tampered with, ie: A = 440 in order to keep us from creating music in keeping with healing frequencies and creating higher vibrations? I think you have missed the point... The conspiracy embraces all aspects of what we have been taught, and music is no exception |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 363016 Ireland 01/27/2008 08:33 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
picesnator User ID: 318318 United States 01/27/2008 08:37 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 326428 United States 01/27/2008 08:37 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 327736 Canada 01/27/2008 08:41 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | vocalists find it easier to sing some stuff when in 432 as well... my guitarists used to tune down 1/2 step all the time for that reason, although i remember them having to change the way they played a few things as well. good thing im a drummer and do not have to worry about keys,..lol it is fun to watch new players faces when i sit in with them and ask what key its in ,..lol, like it matters. ba dat boom! |
HashishAssassin User ID: 363185 Australia 01/27/2008 08:42 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Curtis Loew User ID: 263006 United States 01/27/2008 08:42 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | many guitarists tune a half step down, to E flat, Van Halen, SRV, Hendrix ...hmmm Quoting: Anonymous Coward 326428Why is this done? You can get a slightly fatter tone by tuning your guitar down a half step. A little easier to bend strings too. My Dog Ate My Signature. |
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Smellin' DeGenerates User ID: 363176 United States 01/27/2008 08:49 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | RE:tunings;modes;scales here is much Info: [link to smphillips.8m.com] Pick the appropriate chapter. |
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