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WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession?
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Insurgent in America
User ID: 149294
9/29/2006 7:43 PM
Report abusive post | WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession?
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Its just like dying from drowing except that you wake up to enjoy it all over again.
Eyewitness testimony of the water cure
Lieutenant Grover Flint during the Philippine-American War:
"A man is thrown down on his back and three or four men sit or stand on his arms and legs and hold him down; and either a gun barrel or a rifle barrel or a carbine barrel or a stick as big as a belaying pin, -- that is, with an inch circumference, -- is simply thrust into his jaws and his jaws are thrust back, and, if possible, a wooden log or stone is put under his head or neck, so he can be held more firmly. In the case of very old men I have seen their teeth fall out, -- I mean when it was done a little roughly. He is simply held down and then water is poured onto his face down his throat and nose from a jar; and that is kept up until the man gives some sign or becomes unconscious. And, when he becomes unconscious, he is simply rolled aside and he is allowed to come to. In almost every case the men have been a little roughly handled. They were rolled aside rudely, so that water was expelled. A man suffers tremendously, there is no doubt about it. His sufferings must be that of a man who is drowning, but cannot drown. ..."[2]
[link to en.wikipedia.org]
And they do it again, and again, and again, and again.........
Where is the point that you sign the confession?
How many times will you die before you sign away your life?
The Wall Street Journal doesn't think so. Even those who offer token opposition to the practice imply that this kind of thing has happened in the past and we shouldn't take much notice of it. Here's an interesting transcript from a trial of Japanese interrogators after World War II, who "waterboarded" American detainees in captivity. The war crimes prosecutor is getting testimony from an American soldier who was waterboarded:
"Q: What other physical treatment was administered to you at that time?
A: Well, I was given what they call the water cure.
Q: Explain to the Commission what that was.
A: Well, I was put on my back on the floor with my arms and legs stretched out, one guard holding each limb. The towel was wrapped around my face and put across my face and water was poured on. They poured water on this towel until I was almost unconscious from strangulation, then they would let me up until I'd get my breath, then they'd start over again.
Q: When you regained consciousness would they keep asking you questions?
A: Yes sir they did.
Q: How long did this treatment continue?
A: About twenty minutes.
Q: What was your sensation when they were pouring water on the towel, what did you physically feel?
A: Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death."
Here's the CIA's formal description of the waterboarding technique approved by president Bush for use in Guantanamo and in other secret CIA torture sites around the world:
"The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt."
Sound familiar? It's worth placing in the public record that the Bush administration's torture policies are, in this specific respect, the same as the Japanese dictatorship's in World War II. The American prosecutor at the time dismissed charges against the American serviceman whose testimony appears above on the following grounds: "The untrustworthiness of any admissions or confessions made under torture would clearly vitiate a conviction based thereon." How far we've sunk. And it took a Christian president, supported by Christian voters, to take us there.
[link to time.blogs.com] |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 11632
9/29/2006 7:51 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
Now we know who won WWII. The Nazi's did. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 143621
9/29/2006 7:51 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
Fact is, there's no other way to gather valuable intel from terrorists. If it would save American or other innocent lives from an imminent attack, we must sometimes resort to drastic measures. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 149299
9/29/2006 7:53 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
It's ridiculous - the inquisition elicited so much truth with torture. 
They're making a statement - plain and simple.
[link to en.wikipedia.org] |
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Insurgent in America
User ID: 149294 (OP)
9/29/2006 7:59 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
Fact is, there's no other way to gather valuable intel from terrorists. If it would save American or other innocent lives from an imminent attack, we must sometimes resort to drastic measures. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 143621
This isn't for extracting information.
This is for extracting confessions.
Its exactly like being killed by drowning. The experience is exactly the same. But after the victims loses conciousness they are revived so they can do it again.
And its not just for the terrorists. They can use it on anyone.
America will become the most hated nation in the world outstripping even Israel.
It reminds me of that Stargate episode where O'neil was taken prisoner by the bad guys. He was tortured to death, and then brought back to life to do it all over again.
And again, and again, and again.
Anyone who could justify this is an animal. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 149170
9/29/2006 8:01 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
I think we should do that to Ann Coulter since she's such a fan until "she" admits she a man. Women should lynch her for abusive shit. |
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Insurgent in America
User ID: 149294 (OP)
9/29/2006 8:02 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
Click the link to see the pictures.
[link to www.davidcorn.com]
This Is What Waterboarding Looks Like
As Congress has debated legislation that would set up military tribunals and govern the questioning of suspected terrorists (whom the Bush administration would like to be able to detain indefinitely), at issue has been what interrogation techniques can be employed and whether information obtained during torture can be used against those deemed unlawful enemy combatants. One interrogation practice central to this debate is waterboarding. It's usually described in the media in a matter-of-fact manner. The Washington Post simply referred to waterboarding a few days ago as an interrogation measure that "simulates drowning." But what does waterboarding look like?
Below are photographs taken by Jonah Blank last month at Tuol Sleng Prison in Phnom Penh, Cambodia. The prison is now a museum that documents Khymer Rouge atrocities. Blank, an anthropologist and former Senior Editor of US News & World Report, is author of the books Arrow of the Blue-Skinned God and Mullahs on the Mainframe. He is a professorial lecturer at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies and has taught at Harvard and Georgetown. He currently is a foreign policy adviser to the Democratic staff in the Senate, but the views expressed here are his own observations.
His photos show one of the actual waterboards used by the Khymer Rouge. Here's the first:
Waterboard1-small.jpg
Here's another view:
Waterboard2-small.jpg
How were they used? Here's a painting by a former prisoner that shows the waterboard in action:
Waterboard3-small.jpg
In an email to me, Blank explained the significance of the photos. He wrote:
The crux of the issue before Congress can be boiled down to a simple question: Is waterboarding torture? Anybody who considers this practice to be "torture lite" or merely a "tough technique" might want to take a trip to Phnom Penh. The Khymer Rouge were adept at torture, and there was nothing "lite" about their methods. Incidentally, the waterboard in these photo wasn't merely one among many torture devices highlighted at the prison museum. It was one of only two devices singled out for highlighting (the other was another form of water-torture--a tank that could be filled with water or other liquids; I have photos of that too.) There was an outdoor device as well, one the Khymer Rouge didn't have to construct: chin-up bars. (The prison where the museum is located had been a school before the Khymer Rouge took over). These bars were used for "stress positions"-- another practice employed under current US guidelines. At the Khymer Rouge prison, there is a tank of water next to the bars. It was used to revive prisoners for more torture when they passed out after being placed in stress positions.
The similarity between practices used by the Khymer Rouge and those currently being debated by Congress isn't a coincidence. As has been amply documented ("The New Yorker" had an excellent piece, and there have been others), many of the "enhanced techniques" came to the CIA and military interrogators via the SERE [Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape] schools, where US military personnel are trained to resist torture if they are captured by the enemy. The specific types of abuse they're taught to withstand are those that were used by our Cold War adversaries. Why is this relevant to the current debate? Because the torture techniques of North Korea, North Vietnam, the Soviet Union and its proxies--the states where US military personnel might have faced torture--were NOT designed to elicit truthful information. These techniques were designed to elicit CONFESSIONS. That's what the Khymer Rouge et al were after with their waterboarding, not truthful information.
Bottom line: Not only do waterboarding and the other types of torture currently being debated put us in company with the most vile regimes of the past half-century; they're also designed specifically to generate a (usually false) confession, not to obtain genuinely actionable intel. This isn't a matter of sacrificing moral values to keep us safe; it's sacrificing moral values for no purpose whatsoever.
These photos are important because most of us have never seen an actual, real-life waterboard. The press typically describes it in the most anodyne ways: a device meant to "simulate drowning" or to "make the prisoner believe he might drown." But the Khymer Rouge were no jokesters, and they didn't tailor their abuse to the dictates of the Geneva Convention. They-- like so many brutal regimes--made waterboarding one of their primary tools for a simple reason: it is one of the most viciously effective forms of torture ever devised.
The legislation backed by Bush and congressional Republicans would explicitly permit the use of evidence obtained through waterboarding and other forms of torture. Khalid Sheikh Muhammad and other top al Qaeda leaders have reportedly been subjected to this technique. They would certainly note--or try to note--that at any trial. But with this legislation, the White House is seeking to declare the use of waterboarding (at least in the past) as a legitimate practice of the US government.
The House of Representatives voted for Bush's bill on Thursday, 253 to 168 (with 34 Democrats siding with the president and only seven Republicans breaking with their party's leader). The Senate is expected to vote on the bill today. Its members should consider Blank's photos and arguments before they, too, go off the deep end.
****** |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 149305
9/29/2006 8:04 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
If I did it to you it would be very illegal
If I did it to your family it would be illegal and punishable by years in prision
If I did it to your pet it would be called “cruelty to animals” and be punishable with a fine and prison
But if I change your name to “suspected terrorist” now it is legal do it..
Life is sacred
yours and his |
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GRRRRR!!!
User ID: 35638
9/29/2006 8:07 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
Fact is, there's no other way to gather valuable intel from terrorists. If it would save American or other innocent lives from an imminent attack, we must sometimes resort to drastic measures. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 143621
FUCK YOU... Goddamn NAZI... When they strap you to the table I hope you remember this... Fuckhead.  |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 149294 (OP)
9/29/2006 8:31 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
I think we should do that to Ann Coulter since she's such a fan until "she" admits she a man. Women should lynch her for abusive shit. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 149170
A better idea would be one of the senators who voted for this bill. |
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Malice
User ID: 116846
9/29/2006 8:33 PM
 | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
Like other things I've experienced throughout the years, I can say with confidence that there are a lot worse things that could be done to someone than waterboarding. Been there, done that, have the t-shirt. It's like anything else; trainable to resist. |
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Insurgent in America
User ID: 149294 (OP)
9/29/2006 8:36 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
Like other things I've experienced throughout the years, I can say with confidence that there are a lot worse things that could be done to someone than waterboarding. Been there, done that, have the t-shirt. It's like anything else; trainable to resist. Quoting: Malice
What could be worse without inflicting grave bodily harm?
Think long and hard about what could be worse than dying over and over and over and over.....
There is a reason why the worst dictatorships in the world used this same method, because it scares the hell out of everyone! |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 149170
9/29/2006 8:37 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
God used to bless this country that brought ideas of respect and dignity and humanity to the world. That torture was despicable. Now they have become common everyday thugs. And will go the way of other tyrannical governments. America is gone, because we don't believe we are better, don't believe that we are special, and are here to set an example anymore.
The LOW road. |
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Malice
User ID: 116846
9/29/2006 8:39 PM
| | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
Remember, the most determined wins. |
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Old-fashioned Catholic
User ID: 148819
9/29/2006 8:39 PM
 | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
Fact is, there's no other way to gather valuable intel from terrorists. If it would save American or other innocent lives from an imminent attack, we must sometimes resort to drastic measures. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 143621
Any honest interrogator will tell you that torture does *not* elicit information. The prisoner simply tells you what you want to hear, whether or not it is the truth or whether he knows the truth.
The sole purpose of torture is to elicit "confessions." |
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Fool
User ID: 142889
9/29/2006 8:40 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
Remember, the most determined wins. Quoting: Malice
Wins what? |
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you have become a terrorist
User ID: 149305
9/29/2006 8:41 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
"Buried amongst the untold affronts to the Bill of Rights, the Constitution and the very spirit of America, the torture bill contains a definition of "wrongfully aiding the enemy" which labels all American citizens who breach their "allegiance" to President Bush and the actions of his government as terrorists subject to possible arrest, torture and conviction in front of a military tribunal..."
[link to www.prisonplanet.com] |
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Malice
User ID: 116846
9/29/2006 8:43 PM
| | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
Any honest interrogator will tell you that torture does *not* elicit information. The prisoner simply tells you what you want to hear, whether or not it is the truth or whether he knows the truth.
The sole purpose of torture is to elicit "confessions." Quoting: Old-fashioned Catholic
The last interrogator I worked with had a PhD in Psychology. Generally torture doesn't elicit information, no. But it does prime a subject to be asked the right questions. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 114312
9/29/2006 8:43 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
how many innocent people are fingered to make the pain stop? |
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^TrInItY^  
Forum Administrator
9/29/2006 8:47 PM
 | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
I Would think..
before one could vote for such a bill...
one should experience what one is about to vote for...
this is just horrible and I cannot believe MY country would legalize such barbaric practices...
THIS IS NOT THE AMERICA I KNOW!!
Few will listen,
Of the few who listen, fewer still will understand,
Understanding does not mean believe,
Of the handful who believe, most may not know what to do,
Those who even know, how many will actually do ?
And the rare ones who have done it.......
Need not listen to you anymore.
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 149320
9/29/2006 8:48 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
Fact is, there's no other way to gather valuable intel from terrorists. If it would save American or other innocent lives from an imminent attack, we must sometimes resort to drastic measures. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 143621
Wow. Are you brainwashed. How many convictions since 9/11?
holy fuck. wake up. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 114312
9/29/2006 8:50 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
all of our previous wars were fought against regimes which used these horrific practices |
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^TrInItY^
Forum Administrator
9/29/2006 8:52 PM
| | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
all of our previous wars were fought against regimes which used these horrific practices Quoting: Anonymous Coward 114312
yes but now have become exactly like our enemy...
what good are we now?
when you bring things like torture out of the shadows and try to legitimize them with LAW..
you have a serious fucking problem in your society
HOW CAN ANY MAN OF GOD STAND BY A GROUP OF MEN WHO WOULD LEGALIZE SUCH THINGS?
Few will listen,
Of the few who listen, fewer still will understand,
Understanding does not mean believe,
Of the handful who believe, most may not know what to do,
Those who even know, how many will actually do ?
And the rare ones who have done it.......
Need not listen to you anymore.
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 149170
9/29/2006 8:53 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
So we attacked Iraq and sluaghtered untold numbers, so that we could remove Saddam. He was a threat to America because he "tortured his own people".
Now Bush wants to emulate the personthat we supposedly went after.
When did we all drop into the fucking rabbit hole? |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 148485
9/29/2006 8:55 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
I Would think..
before one could vote for such a bill...
one should experience what one is about to vote for...
this is just horrible and I cannot believe MY country would legalize such barbaric practices...
THIS IS NOT THE AMERICA I KNOW!! Quoting: ^TrInItY^
Trin,
let me thank you again for having removed the ban thing. At a time like this, we need to KNOW. The lame stream media is NOT reporting this, GLP is getting the real news out.
Thank you again! |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 149174
9/29/2006 9:03 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
Fact is, there's no other way to gather valuable intel from terrorists. If it would save American or other innocent lives from an imminent attack, we must sometimes resort to drastic measures. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 143621
how many lives have been "saved" through this means? |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 114312
9/29/2006 9:05 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
and how many innocent people were driven insane or killed during their interrogation? |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 149174
9/29/2006 9:05 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
it was already admitted that the information derived through such torture at gitmo did not help anyone.
yet the USA will do more? |
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^TrInItY^
Forum Administrator
9/29/2006 9:06 PM
| | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
Fact is, there's no other way to gather valuable intel from terrorists. If it would save American or other innocent lives from an imminent attack, we must sometimes resort to drastic measures.
how many lives have been "saved" through this means? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 149174
the end does not justify the means..
becoming a barbarian, even worse LEGALIZING BARBARIC TORTURE, in supposed civilized society is a gigantic step backward for our country and man kind at large..
Few will listen,
Of the few who listen, fewer still will understand,
Understanding does not mean believe,
Of the handful who believe, most may not know what to do,
Those who even know, how many will actually do ?
And the rare ones who have done it.......
Need not listen to you anymore.
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 114312
9/29/2006 9:06 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
as of today
all of the states are free and sovreign
the constitution has been breached
and no longer holds the Union together
now is the time to rely on your governor for protection from the feds |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 149320
9/29/2006 9:09 PM | | Re: WATERBOARD TORTURE NOW LEGAL- How Many Times Can You Die Before Signing A Confession? | Quote |
Habeas Corpus, R.I.P. (1215 - 2006)
>I’d like those supporting this evil bill to spare me one affliction: Do not, please, pretend to be shocked by the consequences of this legislation. And do not pretend to be shocked when the world begins comparing us to the Nazis.<
[link to www.commondreams.org] |
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