WHAT THE MAYA PEOPLE DID NOT KNOW ABOUT 2012

I almost hate to get into this but I feel compelled to point out how little the Maya have written and/or say today about the end of the 13th Baktun of their Long Count, the nature of Hunab Ku, time, etc.

I have long studied the historical sources (the hieroglyphic texts, historical documents and ethnographical studies) concerning Maya knowledge and concepts of astronomy, time keeping and cosmology. My masters thesis, “A New View on Maya Astronomy” can be read at Mayaexploration.org. My Doctoral thesis concerns Maya cosmology, astronomy and geometry and should be published this year under the title “The Shapes of Scared Space”. I am an archaeologist who has lived and worked in the Maya region for nearly 15 years and I teach curriculum development courses to professors form the National Science Foundation and the Mathematical Association of America specifically concerning how to design courses to teach these subjects. I am not trying to blow my own horn. I am just letting you know what my general background is relative to the Subject at hand.

I will always consider myself a student of these subjects as there is so much to learn. The materials that we do have to study, including the living traditions of millions of Maya in Southern Mexico and Central America, provide ample grist for those who wish to study these fascinating mysteries. There are probably few people on earth that have a greater respect for Maya knowledge of astronomy and cosmology.

That being said, and getting back to my opening statement, precious little is actually known from the hieroglyphic, historic and ethnographic sources at hand about what the Maya actually think or thought about the end of the current cycle of 13 Baktuns. There are only two known hieroglyphic texts that mention this date. One at the site of Querigua in Guatemala where it is simply written on the side of a stella (standing stone) and a second text at the site of Coba on the Caribbean coast of Southern Mexico has a partial text beginning with this date and is frustratingly broken off and missing right where the verb would be that would refer to the meaning of that date.

From historical sources, non is richer in detail than the Popol Vuh, a 15th century document written in the Kiche Maya dialect but in Latin characters, by three Maya Shaman/Scribes who had been recently and forcibly converted to Catholicism. I recommend the “The Popol Vuh the Definitive Edition” by Dennis Tedlock. These scribes begin this text by saying to the effect that not all will be reveled here and much knowledge will remain hidden from view. They go on to describe the three previous creations (presumably 13 Baktun periods) in terms of the gods attempting to create human beings. These earlier attempts ended in failure and with each failure the earth was cleansed for the next attempt by flood, fire, and earthquake respectively.

Unfortunately, no mention is made in the Popol Vuh about what will happen at the end of our current Maya era on Dec. 221 or 23, 2012.

John Major Jenkins observation that the rising sun on the end date is near the center of the bulge of the Milky Way is interesting to me as no other obvious planetary alignment, astronomical event, or calendrical conjunction has been proposed for this date . Mr. Jenkins does his research before he writes and his observations on the importance of the zenith passage of the sun in the Tropics are cutting edge.

And finally, what Jose Arguelles and many others say about these events and concepts generally have very little to do about what the Maya have written, said, or say.

I posted the above in response to an earlier thread called “What the Maya knew about 2012”. That thread faded and I thought that starting with the above as a new thread might stimulate some thoughtful debate. With out being critical of earlier posts, I am hoping this thread will explore this topic with a focus on what we really do know and how we know it.

I am interested in innovative, unusual, off the beaten track and even wild ideas and observations or I wouldn’t be here in the first.

I have long enjoyed this forum even though it drives me nuts sometimes.

Vamos a ver.

Christopher Powell

Ouch. Not a great start here.

Ouch. Not a great start here.

Ouch. Not a great start here.


No matter where you go, in real life and on the net, you will meet many closed minds and also much ingnorance.

Just know that there are alot of us out there that are intrigued by ancient culture.

When an event happens, no matter what that event is, to find the truth you much find the beginning... So where do we go ti find the truth about our origins??

The ancient cultures of the world all hold bits of this truth.. Maya, Aztecs, Native Americans, Native Orientals, Aboriginies (sp?) and so on.. Even Jews have bits of truth.. It is so unfortunate however, that so much of the TRUE TRUTH has been suppressed since the beginning of written history that today's people cant find the truth and hardly know where to start their search it...

The search for truth begins in your heart.

Has any of the Mayan science and knowledge survived in oral form?

”Unfortunately, no mention is made in the Popol Vuh about what will happen at the end of our current Maya era on Dec. 221 or 23, 2012.

Most of the real information has been kept by Mayan priesthood in Guatemala. Up to few years ago they have been harassed and hunt down by the by the church/goverment. No wonder the information has been hidden for so long.

The information has been concealed for Jenkins, Arguelles and others.”

I completely agree with the last sentence above. That information has been “concealed” for Jenkens and Arguelles and others. I correspond with Jenkins and read his work. He makes no such claim. As for the others, I would prefer to review them case by case.

Arguelles, in my opinion, did not bother to learn the basics of what is known about Maya math, calendrics and astronomy before he scrambled it together with Cabalarion Numerology and Mathobabble. Sorry but the guy bothers me. I have met him more than once when I was directing excavations at the site of Palenque in Chiapas Mexico. One time he asked to interview me on film. I invited him to see the newly excavated texts at Temple XIX and discuss their extensive astronomical content. He showed very little interest in learning something new and even less knowledge about the subject matter. He seemed more interested in posing for the camera and his entourage. He and his work just rub me wrong.

I am sorry to say these things because a lot of people are interested in his work. But I think that the more you really learn about Maya calendrics, astronomy, math etc. the more likely you will be to see him in a different light.

CP: You noted that John Major Jenkins referred to the closeness of the sun to the Galactic center on Dec. 21, 2012. There may be more significance to it.
At the core of the Milky Way Galaxy, there is a bulge that has the appearance of a serpent's head, jaws open and swallowing its tail. On the Winter Solstice of 2012, the sun rises in the serpent's mouth. This occurs on a successive solstice or equinox every 6,480 years, completing the cycle in 25,920 years; the precession of the equinoxes. David Flynn includes this info in his book Cydonia: The Secret Chronicles of Mars. There are some photos and depictions about a third of the way down the page, at [link to www.mt.net]

I also remember seeing on TV that on Dec. 21, 2012 that as the sun sets on one of the Mayan pyramids, that the shadows from the steps have the appearance of a serpent, crawling. Maybe you know about that.

Whether there are cataclysms associated with the completion of the 6,480 cycles, is debatable but there is some evidence to suggest that global flooding accompanied the last two. Fire next?

CP: You noted that John Major Jenkins referred to the closeness of the sun to the Galactic center on Dec. 21, 2012. There may be more significance to it.
At the core of the Milky Way Galaxy, there is a bulge that has the appearance of a serpent's head, jaws open and swallowing its tail. On the Winter Solstice of 2012, the sun rises in the serpent's mouth. This occurs on a successive solstice or equinox every 6,480 years, completing the cycle in 25,920 years; the precession of the equinoxes. David Flynn includes this info in his book Cydonia: The Secret Chronicles of Mars. There are some photos and depictions about a third of the way down the page, at [link to www.mt.net]

I also remember seeing on TV that on Dec. 21, 2012 that as the sun sets on one of the Mayan pyramids, that the shadows from the steps have the appearance of a serpent, crawling. Maybe you know about that.

Whether there are cataclysms associated with the completion of the 6,480 cycles, is debatable but there is some evidence to suggest that global flooding accompanied the last two. Fire next?

I think Jenkins focuses too much on doom, the unknown, etc.
You are correct about Arguelles. Once you get to know his work, you can see what really moves him.

In a couple of months, I might be heading for Mayaland again. I'll try to get a personal interview with Don Alejandro Oxlaj, Head of the Council of Elders of the Maya. I'm sure he will tell me something.

Adios Amoebas..>.!

Funny how ignorant people don´t see anything.

Ignorance blinds people.

When the student is ready, then the teacher arrives...

Christopher day to learn hasn´t begun, yet.

Fire, flood and earthquake ended the last three Maya eras (see the Popol Vuh) so maybe something cosmic is due. (I am half joking here). I have no inside track on prophecy.

I went through 2and a half years of military service without owning a wristwatch.
I had to pull guard duty every second night, and wake up my relief at the end of half hour or 1 hour watch.
I told time accurately by the stars, the sun, and my biological clock.
It is amazing how much you can see in the skies when you are under them 24/7.
There is no mystery in how the pyramids were aligned due North. Watch a star rise and set. Mark the middle. Step back 100 paces and do it again. There is your North/South line.

I read a great book this year called "Uriel's Machine" by Knight & Lomas. It is about the astronomy of Stonehenge.
It shows how simple uneducated neolithic farmers, fulfilling basic needs like marking the sun's northernmost and southernmost rising and setting to determine the solstices, would lead to greater and greater discoveries.
These discoveries include the circumference of the Earth, the distance to the sun and planets, and predicting the paths of comets to determine if they were threats or not.
It would lead to standardised units of measurements that could be reproduced without an original meter rod to measure against.

Knight & Lomas are Masons, and they refer to an ancient text brought back from Ethiopia by Masonic explorers. This text tells of how Enoch, the grandfather of Noah was brought to a Stone Henge like building in Ireland or Britain and shown a comet that would impact Earth in Noah's time. This was the warning that led to the building of the Ark.

In our day, we live indoors at computers, rarely venturing outside, working at specialised tasks. We are full of knowledge, but we are stupid compared to our stone age ancestors.
These men stood outside, under the heavens, with no one to rely on but themselves and the LORD.
They saw the plane of the Earth tilting under the heavens, the moon and planets (especially Venus) travelling in predictable routes across this starry firmamnent.
They figured it out on their own.
They were intelligent people. They laid the foundations of our civilisation.

As Newton said "I saw further because I stood on the shoulders of Giants."

Fire, flood and earthquake ended the last three Maya eras (see the Popol Vuh) so maybe something cosmic is due. (I am half joking here). I have no inside track on prophecy.

Could be wind is next. Makes sense if global warming (however it's caused) becomes more intense.

While we may not be able to consolidate much from Mayan ruins, we certainly can hear (or read) what the Hopi Elders have to say about the current time. They don't mince words or waffle on with shallow neologisms like Arguelles and other pretend academics:

www.thebeloveddisciple.org

Thanks OP for a great thread. I have little to add, other than that the Maya were given instruction by a fair skinned teacher. Some would say he was Atlantian, but they were reputed to be colored similar to the American Indians. Your thoughts on this?