YOU HAVE TO PROVE ME114 WRONG !!!

<snip some stuff>

<snip some more>

Hello Dex,

Rereading your message, it dawned on me that you might be quoting from the teaching of Michael Tsarion about the EGO. If so, I would warn you that Micheal is not teaching it right. If you have read my earliest postings on this subject I explained that the EGO is the real you, or the 'me'. Michael teaches that the EGO is a construct of dealing with the past cataclysms on earth. I know its semantics, but it makes a huge difference.

God saves our true self, our EGO, or unique personality, that God intends to be a Son of God. This other thing, is a denial-mind construct that uses lies and deception to IMPERSONATE the EGO and trick the EGO into speaking and acting on lies and destroy the true person.

I hope this helps. Mike has some good ideas, but his teaching on the EGO leads people astray.

Bud, I don't have to "prove" you wrong about anything.

It's not like you're on trial or anything, you know.

I happen to think your assertions are completely bogus, in that they demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of basic science -- and even the scientific method. And, based on what I've read in some of your other threads, most people on this forum consider you to be a complete idiot, as well.

And given the fact that GLP'ers are about the most credulous folks imaginable, their rejection of your assertions (I won't dignify them with the term "hypotheses") certainly speaks volumes about your believability!

However, I am not obligated to prove anything one way or the other. I can just sit back and either shake my head in wonder or laugh out loud at your assertions, a choice which, I believe, many other people here have to make when reading your drivel.

But "proof"? Naah. Of course, if you want others to believe your assertions, then perhaps a little "proof" (or, at a minimum, some semi-coherent explanations) might help you.

But that's your call, of course.

Meanwhile, have a good day, and remember -- even if no one buys your stuff, you're still contributing to the board by giving everyone a good laugh.

If you're thinking of telling me to turn it over to God or some benevolent being, then "me" must say that was never the point...we created the "not me" it is up to us to "uncreate" it.

How nuts am i now lol
Dex



Quote

"""

What do I make of all this as pertaining to this discussion is, I am confident that anyone who has the Holy Spirit birthed within them, is given so because this is the only way we can surrender ultimately to the Father. The natural human will and sin nature that we embody, has no ability to surrender ourself to this death. It's kind of like, no person can hold there breath until they caused themselves to actually die, So also, only by another's strength (Jesus Christ) can we have our sinful nature and human will put to death.

"""



Ac 1557,

Here is a stark example of how what you are teaching is wrong and leads people astray. If you could only look at it objectively. Okay, now watch this:

The denial-mind construct lies and deceives a person's true self into speaking and acting on lies, leading to DEATH of self.

A person listening to you, will ask God to help them surrender their true self to DEATH (as you said).

Now look at those two statements and see the result is the same.

You are teaching from your own denial-mind construct.

The actual 'person' that God intends to SAVE, is the one you are teaching to ask God to destroy - that HAS to be a LIE.

Do you see it now?

You have been deceived into thinking this way, because the church has not taught PRECISELY what the THORN in the FLESH is. It is NOT the physical body, and it is NOT the natural will of man. It IS this denial-mind construct attached to the flesh. It is a MIND - lets call it - an ANTI-CONSCIENCE.

So that a person has THREE VOICES, this anti-conscience, their Godlike conscience, and their own voice. The Godlike conscience teaches you right from wrong and brings you remorse/repentance, PREPPING you to receive the HOLY SPIRIT who CLEANSES you by giving you the Godly understanding about the lies you have been believing.

Bottom line:

If you teach people that they are 'naturally' sinful, you are teaching a lie.

I will respond more on your posts Me114.

But I have a question for you.

Is your salvation dependent on anything that you or anyone has done?

You cannot honestly answer this question.

You will say that Jesus should be glorified for our salvation, as some sort of programmed response you have adopted. However your testimony speaks differently. When I read your words it is obvious to me that you credit salvation to the person's actions and abilities.

This is what I was talking about in being released into worshipping the Lord in Spirit and Truth. If we have any mindset that salvation is not complete in Christ and we must measure up to receive salvation by our performance. Then we are disqualified from entering the realm of worship in Spirit and truth.

It is a merely a philosophy of man, that you are sharing Me114.

Instead of asking yourself to discern this denial mind construct that you have found. What you really need to be asking yourself is this..

Am I eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, or am I eating from the tree of life.

You see the tree of life has no knowledge of good and evil attached to it.

When you claim that salvation is based upon our ability to discern good from evil as you are suggesting in your posts. Then it is obvious that you are eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil in hopes of attaining a perfected Godly character.

In fact the bottom line to your faith is based on the knowledge of good and evil. The underlying tone to all your instruction is not for someone to come and eat freely from the tree of life, but is to learn good from evil through discernments of voices, and choose the good side that they may live.

Take a look at Dexter for example. Your message to him is that if he can learn good from evil( by discerning the badwolf voice) then he can save himself from his denial mind.

There is no need for a Savior in your philosophy.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

I will respond more on your posts Me114.

<snip>

AC 1557,

I want to be bold enough to propose to you something about your position, but I do not want you to be offended, and ignore my proposition.

Your denial-mind construct is doing exactly what Dexter explained so deftly. Just as Dexter said, your true self, AC 1557, has reprogrammed your 'me' to be a Christian - and you have done everything RIGHT. I mean that. That is not the problem. Okay, now, just as Dexter said, your "not me" has kept up with your reprogramming and has inserted failsafes to keep you from going all the way....




What I am trying to say to you Me114 is that there is no good and evil anymore for me after eating from the tree of life. There is no necessity for me to do RIGHT from wrong in hopes of being saved. I am saved solely on the faith that Christ has completed everything for me and nothing is lacking. It is finished!

Seeking to know good from evil, is the ongoing sin that is passed on by the inherited will of Adam to all flesh.
Whatever is not of faith is sin. And this means that anything that trusts in works and deeds apart from the sacrifice of Christ is sin. read 1 Cor 13. Good works are not equated to love.

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

Here is another thing that the Lord has shown me Me114...

There is no such thing as a human ego. The ego is a fabrication of man's invention and is ficticious as in it doesn't exist otyer than in empty philosophies of men.

ME114, Thank you for pointing that out, that the "not me" is the one who doesn't expect any help from God. I must meditate on this, but while Im there, I will do as you suggest, I will ask, I will try, I will listen. "Not me" is strong, very strong, so strong that in fact it tries to convince me that "me" is not me, and so far it has been doing a good job. I've been duped!!

What could it really hurt to ask for help? Not me :)

<snip some stuff>

<snip some more>

Hello Dex,

Rereading your message, it dawned on me that you might be quoting from the teaching of Michael Tsarion about the EGO. If so, I would warn you that Micheal is not teaching it right. If you have read my earliest postings on this subject I explained that the EGO is the real you, or the 'me'. Michael teaches that the EGO is a construct of dealing with the past cataclysms on earth. I know its semantics, but it makes a huge difference.

God saves our true self, our EGO, or unique personality, that God intends to be a Son of God. This other thing, is a denial-mind construct that uses lies and deception to IMPERSONATE the EGO and trick the EGO into speaking and acting on lies and destroy the true person.

I hope this helps. Mike has some good ideas, but his teaching on the EGO leads people astray.


I have never read the works of Mighael Tsarion. I believe he is misterming the item he calls the Ego. The only part of us that is kept is the Soul, this I have witnessed first hand. This is the "true us" the one component with its own special frequency. No two are alike, each a part of the grand harmony. This I have seen firsthand.

In any case I try not to get caught up in pther people's translations. I am fully aware of the incapacity of us humans to properly translate any purethought imprints that come to us from the Divine source. We are capable of recieving the information, and even understanding it. But when it comes to explaining it to others, we have to establish a common ground, and in order to do that, most purethoughts have to be "dumbed down", and "acceptable substitutions" have to be inserted. This, inevitably, clouds the message, and the reciever further clouds it by mistranslating what they have heard...for their better understanding....(is "not me" doing that for them?)

The challenge for me, ME114, is still getting the not me out of me. I have been fully and utterly unsuccessful at eradicating this ever mutating virus. I will ask for help, I will ask for help as I was shown, while I remember Love, and I will shine my question. I will do my best to have faith, but the not me speaks so loudly now that I might not hear. What to do then?

Interesting development. "I" am afraid. "I" dont want to ask. "I" dont want to give up "me". "I" am afriad, and trying to convince myself that asking is pointless and fruitless.

"I" dont want to die. I am not me.

You are missing, that GOD WORKS IT OUT IN US to make us like Jesus. I know you are not saying we can believe and then just go on sinning and ignore God's perfect plan for our unique life? Are you? I doubt that. SO, how do you propose that God works in us to do His Will? He does not FORCE us. He has to TEACH US. He teaches us by His own VOICE. You cant teach yourself from the bible, because that is YOUR WORKS, which are filthy rags. Do you see?

So, Yes, God teaches us to discern Good and Evil, so we can choose to NOT do evil. Look at it this way. You are saying the salvation work is finished in Christ; all we do is believe, and at the last day, we will be all set. I am saying look at the parable of the talents. The man with ONE TALENT did nothing, and got thrown out into outer darkness and was called lazy. God gives you His Holy Spirit to CLEANSE you of all unrighteousness, but if you do NOTHING with this Power, then you WASTE that gift, you make the blood of Christ of none-effect if you continue to sin, which is, speaking, thinking and acting on LIES.

How do you deal with: Work out your salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING?



In fact the bottom line to your faith is based on the knowledge of good and evil. The underlying tone to all your instruction is not for someone to come and eat freely from the tree of life, but is to learn good from evil through discernments of voices, and choose the good side that they may live.


No, choose to LISTEN to God's Voice.
Be taught by God's Voice.
Learn from God's Voice.

This is the sanctification process which leads to glorification.

Are you telling me christians should be lazy bums with this great gift of the cleansing of our sins and power to resist sin and be made into the image of Christ?


Take a look at Dexter for example. Your message to him is that if he can learn good from evil( by discerning the badwolf voice) then he can save himself from his denial mind.


That is NOT what I told Dexter. I told him, now seek to hear the VOICE of God and let GOD help you stop the influence of that 'not me' voice. Now dont you lie about what I said - thats your denial-mind twisting the facts to keep you blinded to what you need to understand about just what I have been sharing here to help your 'me' to get free from your 'not me'. And I tell you the same advice I told Dexter, ASK GOD TO HELP YOU WITH THE VOICES.


There is no need for a Savior in your philosophy.


That is a PURE LIE. I have explained, explicitly, just how Jesus saves us, and in a way that people can better understand AND EVEN AGREE that they NEED a SAVIOUR, because they can not (as Dexter has expressed) defeat this denial-mind's attacks on their true self, WITH-OUT GOD's HELP!

Dont you lie. Everything I have shared about this denial-mind points to the need for ONLY Jesus Christ of Nazareth as the Saviour of human beings.



Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Here is another thing that the Lord has shown me Me114...

There is no such thing as a human ego. The ego is a fabrication of man's invention and is ficticious as in it doesn't exist otyer than in empty philosophies of men.



The EGO is the unique personhood that you are born as - which you develop in your soul - and which Jesus came and died and rose again, to SAVE.

<snip what I said>

Me114

You really like to twist scripture to fit a new age agenda of terminology,...words you develop to prove your point are leaning towards the new age doctrines. Terms such as God-consciousness and now the newly named enemy "Anti-consciousness". There is no such thing as an anti consciousness at work within us. This is called the "Anti_Christ"

What is the purpose of this Anti Christ... but to exalt itself against the knowledge of Christ and deny the Father and Son's work of salvation by faith.

You seem to think I am unaware of the three voices that are influencing the human being, but I am not. I am just identiifying the spirit that lies against Christ for what it is and that is an Anti-Christ spirit. If this has attached itself to the human soul, then deliverance is needed by the Spirit of God. What needs to be dealt with is a demonic entity and not a philosophy.

For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.


The ones who have the ability to accomplish the pulling down of strongholds through God are those who have been established in their own obedience to faith. Dexter for example has no ability to discern the badwolf voice, nor does he have any carnal ability to destroy and pull down this stronghold. But you are teaching that we can, you are saying that we can empty the thougts of the antichrist that are filling our soul by disstinguishing them from the voice of God.

From my standpoint I consider all of your rhetoric spawned of antichrist instruction. Knowing good from evil is not so much the dilemna that you are facing as being steeped in antichrist thoughts, but seeking to gain personal advancemnet through the knowledge of good and evil is the dilemna that has been placed upon you by the antichrist.

When you asked me what the Holy Spirit has shown me, this antichrist agenda is what I was shown.

you said

"""A person listening to you, will ask God to help them surrender their true self to DEATH (as you said)."""

But that is not exactly what I have said as you have misunderstood.

I said that a person must be born again of the Holy Spirit, and this experience of the Spiritual birth is what kills the antichrist and the old man that was sold under sin. It is finished upon the Spiritual birth of the human spirit.

You said

"""If you teach people that they are 'naturally' sinful, you are teaching a lie."""

Wrong again Me114, and this is why you should seek your wisdom from Scripture as well as from the Holy Spirit because the two are in complete agreement.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.

Do you see the part that says we are sold under sin?

It is because of Adam's sin and his seed transfered through Eve in childbirth that men are sinners from birth..

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

You truly need to grasp this simple truth that we are sinners from birth because of Adam's sin.

Because it is destroying any faith in Christ that you may have been given.

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Your philosophy is teaching that we are responsible for our sin nature and thus we are also responsible for our righteous heavenly nature.

And when I say responsible I mean that these natures are dependant upon our works and deeds. If we have a sin nature because we sinned, Then the same would apply to the righteous nature that we have when we are saved. The righteous nature would also be accounted to us by our good works of righteousness.

Hence because we are now esteemed for our ability to do battle and be saved, there is no worship of the Father in Spirit and Truth. And this leaves us looking for the correct mountain so that we might worship the Father correctly. But in reality there is no worship offered to the Father, unless we know His salvation.

John 4:22
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews

Getting back to reality for a second, first, you can't prove a negative and second, you can't argue a belief system. So, don't look for too many serious replies, me114.

<snip what I said>

Me114

You really like to twist scripture to fit a new age agenda of terminology,...words you develop to prove your point are leaning towards the new age doctrines. Terms such as God-consciousness and now the newly named enemy "Anti-consciousness". There is no such thing as an anti consciousness at work within us. This is called the "Anti_Christ"

What is the purpose of this Anti Christ... but to exalt itself against the knowledge of Christ and deny the Father and Son's work of salvation by faith.



DUH - thats EXACTLY what I have been saying. In my other post on GLP I say that the anti-christ is you - this denial-mind in people tricks them into becoming anti-christ. And this denial-mind keeps people from accepting the work of salvation in Christ.

As for New-Age terminology - how do you propose to witness to new agers? I mean, do you ALLOW the Holy Spirit to TAYLOR your witnessing message to what the person you are speaking to, is able to receive?

What makes it SO EASY, for you to reject my message as WRONG, because I use new-age terminology? I know what makes it so easy. It is your 'stinking' righteousness, that's what. Your rules. Your way. Your godly way. Your saved in Christ way, says, oh she must be a witch and a new-ager because look at the words she uses. Did you ask God? What does HE SPEAK TO YOU ABOUT IT?




You seem to think I am unaware of the three voices that are influencing the human being, but I am not. I am just identiifying the spirit that lies against Christ for what it is and that is an Anti-Christ spirit. If this has attached itself to the human soul, then deliverance is needed by the Spirit of God. What needs to be dealt with is a demonic entity and not a philosophy.


How did we EVER get so far in this discussion before you ADMITTED that you knew about the THREE VOICES? And NO it is not a demon; each human is born with it attached to their flesh, due to Adam's fall. If you teach that it is a demon, and it is NOT, then you teach wrong, and the person will not be delivered (logic).




For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.


The ones who have the ability to accomplish the pulling down of strongholds through God are those who have been established in their own obedience to faith. Dexter for example has no ability to discern the badwolf voice, nor does he have any carnal ability to destroy and pull down this stronghold. But you are teaching that we can, you are saying that we can empty the thougts of the antichrist that are filling our soul by disstinguishing them from the voice of God.


Please dont lie. I teach it every single time - ASK GOD TO HELP YOU. Only GOD can do it for you. Why do you change what I've said? What in you makes you do that? That is clearly dishonest.

The fact that DEXTER can discern the difference between his 'me' and 'not me' indicates that God was already helping him. He said, if you will remember, that he had already been policing his thoughts at the suggestion of a book he read, before he saw my post. He also knows about the imprinting of pure divine thought - which is an excellent definition of God's Voice. Yet, I still told Dexter, and today repeated, that only God can defeat that 'not me'. So, do not say that I have said things that I have not, to prove your position, because that is a CLASSIC tactic of the denial-mind construct's influence OVER YOU. And I have to, here make an example of that fact, for your sake and the sake of others reading this.

This denial mind can RUIN CHRISTIANS and turn them into RELIGIOUS SPIRITS - and they are the HARDEST to get through to, because they believe they have all the truth and cant be told anything, because they are AFRAID of being deceived because they do NOT FULLY TRUST GOD to keep them from being deceived.

I told this to you before, but you ignored it. So stop thinking that I must be wrong, and ignoring everything I say. I havent done that to you.


From my standpoint I consider all of your rhetoric spawned of antichrist instruction. Knowing good from evil is not so much the dilemna that you are facing as being steeped in antichrist thoughts, but seeking to gain personal advancemnet through the knowledge of good and evil is the dilemna that has been placed upon you by the antichrist.

When you asked me what the Holy Spirit has shown me, this antichrist agenda is what I was shown.


So be it then. Before you had blessings for me, now a day later you are calling me an antichrist. So whose discernment were you using two days ago, and whose are you using now? Your own, right?


you said

"""A person listening to you, will ask God to help them surrender their true self to DEATH (as you said)."""

But that is not exactly what I have said as you have misunderstood.

I said that a person must be born again of the Holy Spirit, and this experience of the Spiritual birth is what kills the antichrist and the old man that was sold under sin. It is finished upon the Spiritual birth of the human spirit.

You said

"""If you teach people that they are 'naturally' sinful, you are teaching a lie."""

Wrong again Me114, and this is why you should seek your wisdom from Scripture as well as from the Holy Spirit because the two are in complete agreement.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.

Do you see the part that says we are sold under sin?

It is because of Adam's sin and his seed transfered through Eve in childbirth that men are sinners from birth..

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

You truly need to grasp this simple truth that we are sinners from birth because of Adam's sin.

Because it is destroying any faith in Christ that you may have been given.


Do you OBEY His commandments to you?

You are not listening to me at all; you ignore everything I say. Why should I repeat myself over and over with you, if you will not listen? When you debate with someone, even if you think they are wrong, can you still at least listen to and think about what they say?!
Please read this:



1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.




After you have believed in the finished work of Christ, as you have said, do you not sometimes fall into sin? Yes? I hope you said yes. When you do, then you are convicted by the Holy Spirit - this conviction takes the form of a 'nudge' in your heart, or maybe an imprint of a divine thought as Dexter put it so well, and then you CONFESS to God, yes God you are right, that was not your way to do or speak, then Jesus FORGIVES you and ERASES that sin, and you LEARN LEARN LEARN LEARN, and are not tempted by that situation in the future. This is sanctification.

Now all I am adding to that, in this thread, is that there is a denial-mind attached to every human being, who SPEAKS in our minds, to TEMPT us to SIN.

And, by the way, PAUL NEVER FIGURED IT OUT PRECISELY. But you can still see that Paul is talking about when he says that he does, what he does not want to do - Paul could not defeat this thorn in the flesh - so he settled for God's grace, ie the precise truth of the matter was NOT revealed to Paul at that time. Why? I leave it up to the reader to ponder why.



Your philosophy is teaching that we are responsible for our sin nature and thus we are also responsible for our righteous heavenly nature.


Thats a LIE. First of all, I totally DISAGREED with you that we even HAVE a sinful nature!

And for heaven sakes, God is the one who cleans away our sins through Christ's blood and God teaching us and empowering us to resist the temptations to sin - leaving us with HIS Righteousness which He Himself authored. If that was not my clear position before now, then there it is.

You making stuff up now.


And when I say responsible I mean that these natures are dependant upon our works and deeds. If we have a sin nature because we sinned, Then the same would apply to the righteous nature that we have when we are saved. The righteous nature would also be accounted to us by our good works of righteousness.


Your denial-mind is working overtime. I never said we had a sin nature - YOU DID. I said we are born, pure, clean, holy souls, and then we sin by our free will by being deceived by the denial-mind, and then we are responsible for soiling our soul. Now our clean soul God gave us, is polluted, and WE NEED God to cleanse it. You know darn well that is what I said, so stop letting your denial-mind change it; stop lying. You claim to be a christian and look how easy your denial mind tricks you into twisting what I have said, to make me wrong, and keep you from even paying a little attention to anything I have said.

Then to top it off, you yourself are the one who has accounted your righteous nature to what you have done - and that is filthy rags in God's eyes. How can I say that? Because, if you were truly willing to listen to God, instead of your own built up righteous personna, then you would debate with me honestly, instead of, now, suddenly, twisting what I have said, in blatant lies, which if you stepped back, you could admit and see, whoa, something is wrong here. AGAIN, ONLY GOD can help you see the work of the denial mind in you. Since you believe I was WRONG in the first place, then you wont ask GOD to help you to know whether I was wrong or not. Your 'not me' is now fighting tooth and nail to keep you from discovering it, so it resorts to tricking you into even LYING. Have I got through to your 'me' yet? I pray God help you with this, in Jesus' Name (thats the only way. Im sure others here can see it).





Hence because we are now esteemed for our ability to do battle and be saved, there is no worship of the Father in Spirit and Truth. And this leaves us looking for the correct mountain so that we might worship the Father correctly. But in reality there is no worship offered to the Father, unless we know His salvation.

John 4:22
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews



LIE LIE LIE

I said, when you let God teach you His voice from the denial-mind's voice, then you will be able to commune with God, now and forever into eternity.

Sounds just like WORSHIP GOD IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH to me.

Im praying for you. I want you to know, nothing comes from arguing with a denial-mind; I pray God intervenes on yours and show you its ways are working in you. It HAS to make me wrong - its cover is blown - it will lose control over you - it will fight - ask GOD TO HELP you with your denial-mind construct is all I could end this message with.

p.s. now everyone knows why Paul did not get it. We have Paul's letters in the bible - if he did get it, we dont have that letter, or he didnt write one revealing it - or he never got it. It is harder for christians to discover the denial mind construct in them; and for everyone, only GOD can help you defeat it.

Here is another thing that the Lord has shown me Me114...

There is no such thing as a human ego. The ego is a fabrication of man's invention and is ficticious as in it doesn't exist otyer than in empty philosophies of men.



The EGO is the unique personhood that you are born as - which you develop in your soul - and which Jesus came and died and rose again, to SAVE.


Me114

Be honest

is this ego explanation true because you say so??

Getting back to reality for a second, first, you can't prove a negative and second, you can't argue a belief system. So, don't look for too many serious replies, me114.

Precisely.

GLP is full of such assertions, ain't it.

< snip my voluminous writings - GRIN >

Me114

I just want you to know I am not purposing to lie, if something becomes misunderstood by our communication weakness, then it is for that reason only.

It is difficult to explain something from the lens of grace as grace unfolds by the knowledge of the Holy Spirit given to us.

I agree with most of your retorts, but I don't see them as balanced throughout your words. by this I mean that i hear you making claims of grace and the finished work of Christ, but your testimony and instruction speaks the opposite from my understanding of grace.

Here is something for you to read concerning your question??

"""How do you deal with: Work out your salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING?"""




...what does Philippians 2:12 mean when it says "work out your salvation with fear and trembling´?
Was Paul really urging the Philippians not to be over confident but to realize that their final salvation was not yet assured? Not at all.!
This verse has nothing to do with assurance of final salvation for individual believers.
We have to take the whole context of the book of Philippians and the situation that their church was going through...The church at Philippi was plagued with...
1) rivalries and individual ambition(Phil. 2:3,4: 4:2)
2) the teaching of Judaizers(who claimed circumcision was needed to have salvation--3:1-3)
3) the influence of fulfilling carnal desires-(3:18,19)

Because of these problems the church itself was in need of salvation, in the temporal ,experiential sense, not in the eternal sense. ´Salvation" in this context is referring to the community of beleivers and not to individuals. Salvation is spoken of in the corporate sense. The Philippians were called by the Apostle Paul to ´keep on working out´ continuosly the deliverance of the church into a state of christian maturity.

The greek word for ´work out´ (katergazomai) is a compound verb that indicates acheivement or bringing to a conclusion. Paul was calling the Philippians to solve all the church´s problems, and bring corporate ´salvation´ to a state of final acheivement..Paul insisted that the problems needed to be solved. The Philippians were to work it out to the finish.
In the phrase ´work out your own salvation´ the words "your own" are strongly explicit in the greek text.

Paul was bidding them to ´learn to walk alone´ instead of always leaning on him to be present with personal influences plaguing them. this was necessary as Paul was absent from the church.

The Philippians were to accomplish the task with an attitude of ´fear and trembling´. This doesn´t mean Paul wanted them to have terror in their hearts as a motivation. But was expressing that they should have great reverence for the Lord and a humble frame of mind. ( remember many in the church were prideful and had little reverence for God...Such humility and reverence for God would help them overcome their problems in the church...(1 Cor. 2:3; 2 Cor. 7:15; Eph. 6:5)

Cross with
Romans 8:29,30 Paul said...
"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son...and those He predestined, He also called, those He called, those He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified."

Here we find an unbroken progression from predestination to glorification. And the tense of the word ´glorified´ is so certain that it can be said to be already accomplished.

Ephesians 4:30 affirms our salvation where believers are told they are "sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption" The presence of the Holy Spirit, the ´seal´, is the beleivers guarantee of the security of his salvation, and that they will be in God´s presence for all eternity

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Me114

don't take this personally, because the antichrist spirit that I speak of is not you.

I have attempted to share scripture with you regarding the sinful nature, it seems you have no desire to investigate the scripture I have shared. We seem to stray pretty far from a point trying to make a point. So can we focus on this situation with whether a person is born with a sinful nature or not. From there we can proceed to what may seem like other errors between us.

The reason I press this point because I see this mistake in your thinking as being foundational to having an antichrist spirit swaying your theology. and again I am not saying this to make judgment against you, because this spirit is not a part of you as you have suggested the antichrist spirit is.

we do not test the humans to see if they are antichrist, we test the spirits.

So please don't take my discernment as a judgment against you personally.

Again I share the scripture p[assage that talks of the human sin nature that is inherited from Adam...Are you denying the Word of God?

"""12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."""

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Me114

don't take this personally, because the antichrist spirit that I speak of is not you.

I have attempted to share scripture with you regarding the sinful nature, it seems you have no desire to investigate the scripture I have shared. We seem to stray pretty far from a point trying to make a point. So can we focus on this situation with whether a person is born with a sinful nature or not. From there we can proceed to what may seem like other errors between us.

The reason I press this point because I see this mistake in your thinking as being foundational to having an antichrist spirit swaying your theology. and again I am not saying this to make judgment against you, because this spirit is not a part of you as you have suggested the antichrist spirit is.

we do not test the humans to see if they are antichrist, we test the spirits.

So please don't take my discernment as a judgment against you personally.

Again I share the scripture p[assage that talks of the human sin nature that is inherited from Adam...Are you denying the Word of God?

"""12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."""



What I am saying does not negate the Word of God.

Because of Adam's sin, listening to and obeying and acting on a LIE, we have inherited EXACTLY what caused his fall - a denial-mind construct that LIES to us. It is in our flesh.

We are a soul and our soul has nothing wrong with it until we sin, at least once, and then it is spoiled because God is Holy and He can not live with a soul with a sin-spot on it.

The only reason that the debate you and I are having, about whether man is inherently sinful or chooses to sin, is important, is because we both need to know the TRUTH.

It seems to me, the only way to prove the truth of this one question is to do the exercise I suggested by creating this thread in the first place!

YOU HAVE TO PROVE ME114 WRONG !!!

-----

Lets look at this logically. Lets say you are right. Man is born from the womb with a sinful nature. The man's soul, all things being equal, has an inherent tendency to sin, because it is born IN SIN - IS SINFUL - period. I hope I stated your position correctly.

Okay, if this is so, then logically, one must totally identify themselves with Christ, that their original soul is dead and crucified in Christ, and that they are now a new creature in Christ, all by faith. Sound familiar, right? This is standard christian teaching. You can not identify your self as being anything at all, OF the person you were born as. That person is dead. And, so according to Paul's thorn in the flesh, because you are waiting for the full manifestation of your new position in Christ, which is either after death, or at the point of glorification, until then, you have to deal with the fact that you keep doing what you dont want to do - you keep sinning - because you are having to settle for standing on your faith that you are new creature - and wait for the final manifestation of that fact.

Let's see where this leads....

Lets say you are an infant and you get mashed to death by a wall knocked down by a hurricane in europe last week. (very very sad). Most christians agree that the soul of that infant goes back to God. Because the bible teaches that where there is no knowledge of the law, there is no sin, and the infant had not reached (in God's knowing) the age of accountablity. So, if that is true, then how is it, that if that baby was born a SINNER - his soul is still saved when he was killed? If not, that the TRUTH is, he must willfully SIN himself and soil his soul, after he has reached the age of accountability in God's eyes?


Which leads me to my side of the argument. Which is, that the baby's body, from birth, has attached to it, a denial mind construct. No matter how much, if any influence it has on the infant, UP TO the age of accountablity, there is no imputed sin to the child, until, in God's eyes, the child has received a law and willfully broke it.

Look at this also:



Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.




This scripture clearly implies that God 'saves souls'. If a soul is born a sinner, as you suggest, then why would God save it? If the soul is to be considered dead in Christ, and REPLACED with a new creature-soul (that by the way, still seems to sin), then which soul is God saving? The soul you were originally born as? If not, then.. what is being saved?


You said, we should focus on this one point. Is man born a sinner, or does man choose to sin and become a sinner?

My position is, man chooses to sin. Every man does, except Jesus of Nazareth who did no sin. SO, have you every wondered why Jesus' parentage could NOT be of two humans? His Divine parentage on the one side must have had a part in His ability to resist the temptations (of the denial mind) to sin; whether that was a more clear ability to hear God's voice, or what, I do not know.

The question boils down to, whether it is possible for God to reveal a deeper understanding of His Word IN THE BIBLE, now, or not? Because all the places where we are taught about 'the flesh' and the 'old man' can more PRECISELY be explained as the presence of this denial-mind construct, WITH-OUT taking anything of the TRUTH away from the Word of God. And actually, being more precise, deliver even Believers from the bondage to this denial-mind construct so that their souls can, experientially, be conformed to the image of Christ, NOW, before death, and in the process of sanctification leading to glorification. The power from God to resist sin and to stop sinning (disobeying God's truth in word and action).



Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.




If we live by obeying the denial mind construct, then our souls are antichrists.




Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?



see where is says obeying sin unto death?




Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.





But if we obey the Voice of God ( live THROUGH the Spirit) we kill the deeds of the denial-mind - those things it tempts us to do - and we live unto God. If we CHOOSE to move our free will toward ALLOWING the Spirit of God to LEAD us, then we are the SONS of God <-- sounds like salvation to me.

so... you can believe a lot of things, and even believe them in your heart. but if you DISOBEY God's voice and live in obedience to the denial-mind then you are not saved - and you deceive yourself.

I mean.. this matters, which one of us is right, AC 1557.

"""After you have believed in the finished work of Christ, as you have said, do you not sometimes fall into sin? Yes? I hope you said yes. When you do, then you are convicted by the Holy Spirit - this conviction takes the form of a 'nudge' in your heart, or maybe an imprint of a divine thought as Dexter put it so well, and then you CONFESS to God, yes God you are right, that was not your way to do or speak, then Jesus FORGIVES you and ERASES that sin, and you LEARN LEARN LEARN LEARN, and are not tempted by that situation in the future. This is sanctification."""
-----------------------------------------------------

Me114

You see, from my perspective this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and is not biblical. And by this I mean specifically this comment

""When you do, then you are convicted by the Holy Spirit""

I have heard this taught since I was a newborn christian, but God has shown me by the Spirit and by the word that this is ridiculous.

The Holy Spirit cannot convict a believer of sin, only an unbeliever. The Holy Spirit convicts the believer of righteousness, because Jesus was resurrected from the dead and this faith is what makes a believer in fact a believer.

It is the accuser of the brethren who convicts or acuses a christian of sin..

How can the Holy Spirit declare to us that Christ has paid for our sins and made complete atonement for us and then also convict and accuse those who believe of being in sin.

I hope you can see this error as being against what the Holy Spirit is commisioned to reveal and bear witness of...

7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;

10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;

11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
-------------------------------------------------

As scripture states the Holy Spirit bears witnes of three things
1) sin to the unbelieve
2) righteousness to the believer
3) judgment to the devil or antichrist spirit

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Jam 4:5 Do ye think that the Scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
Jam 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Jam 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jam 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Technically I have proven you wrong twice,

the first was showing you from scripture that mankind inherited a sin nature from birth.

You seem to be refusing to hear the Word of God on this.

The second is that the Holy Spirit cannot convict a believer of sin.

You have invited, no demanded, that you were to be proven wrong, Are you refusing to repent of your error, because it seems to me and this is the worse thing is that you are refusing to admit your error through justification your own words and not the Word of scripture.

can you not admit that you are in disagreement with God's word regarding these two things.
1 inherited sin nature
2 Holy Spirit convicting believers of sin

If you cannot admit your error, then it is pointless for me to go through your complete theology and break it down error by error.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jo 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Jo 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.