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If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?

 
Anonymous Coward
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06/23/2017 06:54 PM
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If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
Here is the understanding of photons before Quantum Mechanics started to develop in the early 1920's.

Involving QM in a simple explanation turns the things ugly, because you and I have to deal with probabilities, uncertainties, statistics and the complex mathematical works of De Broglie, Heisenberg, Schrodinger, Feymann, Fermi and 100's of physicists since then.

Many physicists insists in the explanation than links Einstein and Planck equations PLUS Newton Mechanics.

And the key factors are: Light has ENERGY and also has MOMENTUM. With these simple assesments, and having in mind that, for Einstein, mass was explained through its energy and that for Planck, the energy of a "quanta" depends on its frequency, a simple equation appears that relates:

1) Einstein E=mc2, but where m is the relativistic mass (excluding mass at rest).

2) Planck E=kf, where k is the Planck constant and f the frequency of light.

3) Newton p=mv, wich is linear momentum (mass x speed) for a
given mass.

4) Accepting that light has momentum but NO RESTING MASS.


Mixing all them togheter, it's found that:

p = hf/c = mc (light momentum)

then, light mass (relativistic, not inertial) is:

m = hf/c2 ,and this equation tells the mass of a photon.

Mass of a photon grows linearly with the frequency of light.

I don't like it, but is what is told by several scientist.

So, having matter, light is subjected to gravitational attraction. What is said is that force is so small than can't be measured properly in outer space.

Yes it can be measured the attraction force of a celestial body over the light (a different matter).

Here is a nice video:


Anonymous Coward
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06/23/2017 06:54 PM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
1. Because there is no gravity.

2. Because there are no stars.
Anonymous Coward
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06/23/2017 06:55 PM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
Still stuck in particle reality i see.
Anonymous Coward
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06/23/2017 06:56 PM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
Light does have mass
Anonymous Coward
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06/23/2017 06:59 PM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
All particles, including photons, move along geodesics in general relativity and the path they follow is independent of their mass.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/23/2017 07:01 PM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
Light does have mass
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73902666


m = hf/c2 ,and this equation tells the mass of a photon.

That's what I posted, as said by others.

But I don't like explanations based on facts proven in 1919, prior to Quantum Mechanics.

Equations are old and have been replaced by a far more complex mathematical body of work in the last 90 years.
Nick Tesla
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06/23/2017 07:07 PM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
Why do you think something needs mass to be affected by gravity?

You do not understand fields, and you think that particles are fundamental.

There are no such particles (photon, electron, etc). It is all fields.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/23/2017 07:09 PM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
All particles, including photons, move along geodesics in general relativity and the path they follow is independent of their mass.
 Quoting: Smith & Wesson


This explain mainly the gravitational lenses of heavy celestial bodies.

I'm talking about the mass of a photon, no more and no less.

If you watch the video, you'll see that this young scientist talks about momentum and that light from a lantern pushes matter (very weak forces, of course).

It has been measured in modern labs, but explanations are very complex for me to simplify them over here.

One way on the quest for the capture of a single photon involves laser pulses extremely short (Femtoseconds, 10E-15 s)
but still contains a lot of photons.

Other experiments try an indirect way to proof the existance of a single photon and is creating two photons from just one.

There are many other experiments on their way, involving X rays.
Anonymous Coward
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06/23/2017 07:41 PM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
Space-Time is bent by mass.

Light simply follows that path in what it perceives as a straight line.

Keep it simple.
Anonymous Coward
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06/23/2017 10:00 PM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
Light does have mass
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73902666


m = hf/c2 ,and this equation tells the mass of a photon.

That's what I posted, as said by others.

But I don't like explanations based on facts proven in 1919, prior to Quantum Mechanics.

Equations are old and have been replaced by a far more complex mathematical body of work in the last 90 years.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 75128751


Photons have no mass, only energy. The equation you posted is improper usage.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/23/2017 10:20 PM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
Light does have mass
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73902666


m = hf/c2 ,and this equation tells the mass of a photon.

That's what I posted, as said by others.

But I don't like explanations based on facts proven in 1919, prior to Quantum Mechanics.

Equations are old and have been replaced by a far more complex mathematical body of work in the last 90 years.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 75128751


Photons have no mass, only energy. The equation you posted is improper usage.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73775109


This is not my equation, compañero. Mira el video, de donde es deducida!
Anonymous Coward
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06/23/2017 10:25 PM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
Sound can be deflected lol is it that hard to understand really
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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06/23/2017 10:33 PM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
Sound can be deflected lol is it that hard to understand really
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 74036517


Sound lives in the realm of accustic waves and displaces air. Can't exist in outher space. EM waves can. Different realms.
Anonymous Coward
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06/23/2017 10:38 PM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
Here is the understanding of photons before Quantum Mechanics started to develop in the early 1920's.

Involving QM in a simple explanation turns the things ugly, because you and I have to deal with probabilities, uncertainties, statistics and the complex mathematical works of De Broglie, Heisenberg...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 75128751


Anonymous Coward
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06/23/2017 10:40 PM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
stars warp space

the light is not deflected


the path it travels is warped


it is not the light that is being effected but the space

and in the case of a black hole space is so distorted that light upon entering it can never find a way out - at least not from any direction through which light can enter - there may be an egress on the other "side", but that is theoretical
Anonymous Coward
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06/23/2017 10:41 PM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
1. Because there is no gravity.

2. Because there are no stars.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 74966352




hesright
Anonymous Coward
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06/23/2017 11:15 PM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
Stars cannot be seen in space.
Everything else can...all is lit
but the stars cannot be seen.
It is the opposite of what we see
within the atmosphere.
Eric Dollard
Ozicell

User ID: 75089420
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06/23/2017 11:27 PM

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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
A magnetic field has no mass yet it can either be attracted or repelled/deflected by another magnetic field!
That which is - has already been, And what is to be - has already been. Quote: King Solomon.
Nick Tesla
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06/23/2017 11:30 PM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
A magnetic field has no mass yet it can either be attracted or repelled/deflected by another magnetic field!
 Quoting: Ozicell


You are not allowed to say the F-word here! These people believe in particles.
Anonymous Coward
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06/23/2017 11:39 PM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
don't care what modern fools claiming to be scientists think...light has mass it can be no other way
Anonymous Coward
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06/23/2017 11:46 PM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
A magnetic field has no mass yet it can either be attracted or repelled/deflected by another magnetic field!
 Quoting: Ozicell


You are not allowed to say the F-word here! These people believe in particles.
 Quoting: Nick Tesla 69689829



Particles exsist....the electron is a particle from an atom.
Anonymous Coward
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06/24/2017 12:00 AM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
A magnetic field has no mass yet it can either be attracted or repelled/deflected by another magnetic field!
 Quoting: Ozicell


You are not allowed to say the F-word here! These people believe in particles.
 Quoting: Nick Tesla 69689829



Particles exsist....the electron is a particle from an atom.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45913868


No, the electron particle is a model, and it is a very inaccurate model.
Anonymous Coward
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06/24/2017 12:07 AM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
Stars cannot be seen in space.
Everything else can...all is lit
but the stars cannot be seen.
It is the opposite of what we see
within the atmosphere.
Eric Dollard
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46972728


Of course they can! Ask an astronaut. The Apollo 13 guys were even forced to use stars to visually orient their damaged spacecraft while returning to Earth!
Anonymous Coward
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06/24/2017 12:10 AM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
A magnetic field has no mass yet it can either be attracted or repelled/deflected by another magnetic field!
 Quoting: Ozicell


You are not allowed to say the F-word here! These people believe in particles.
 Quoting: Nick Tesla 69689829



Particles exsist....the electron is a particle from an atom.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 45913868


No, the electron particle is a model, and it is a very inaccurate model.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 69689829


Particles can advantageously be conceived as something that could coarsely be described as standing waves.
Anonymous Coward
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06/24/2017 12:11 AM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
Just about *everything* you've posting here is fringe and crack pot "science".

Take some Graduate level courses in QM, QFT, and GR from a good university, as I did, and then get back to us.
Anonymous Coward
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06/24/2017 12:11 AM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
Just about *everything* you've posting here is fringe and crack pot "science".

Take some Graduate level courses in QM, QFT, and GR from a good university, as I did, and then get back to us.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 75132955


Oh, and I was a PhD student in theoretical physics.
Anonymous Coward
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06/24/2017 12:12 AM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
Stars cannot be seen in space.
Everything else can...all is lit
but the stars cannot be seen.
It is the opposite of what we see
within the atmosphere.
Eric Dollard
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46972728


Of course they can! Ask an astronaut. The Apollo 13 guys were even forced to use stars to visually orient their damaged spacecraft while returning to Earth!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 49793362


Why do you think we went to all that trouble and expense of putting the Hubble telescope in orbit? Because outside our ever perturbed atmosphere stars can be seen much clearer!
Anonymous Coward
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06/24/2017 12:17 AM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
Just about *everything* you've posting here is fringe and crack pot "science".

Take some Graduate level courses in QM, QFT, and GR from a good university, as I did, and then get back to us.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 75132955


This is GLP, not some peer-reviewed publication. Let people speculate. Even wildly.

Furthermore, it's the fringes that end up causing the advance of science. Let people be.
Anonymous Coward
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06/24/2017 12:17 AM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
light has mass

E(nergy)
=
M(ass)
times
Lightspeed squared

not a lot of mass because the speed thins it out, but it is clearly *there*
Nick Tesla
User ID: 69689829
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06/24/2017 12:39 AM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
Just about *everything* you've posting here is fringe and crack pot "science".

Take some Graduate level courses in QM, QFT, and GR from a good university, as I did, and then get back to us.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 75132955


Oh, and I was a PhD student in theoretical physics.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 75132955


Did you demand a refund?
Anonymous Coward
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06/24/2017 12:45 AM
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Re: If light has no mass how can it be deflected by the gravity of a star?
1. Because there is no gravity.

2. Because there are no stars.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 74966352


This





GLP