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DESCHOOLING SOCIETY
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KNOW
User ID: 206414
 United States
3/12/2007 11:44 AM
Report abusive post | |
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 196275
United States
3/12/2007 12:02 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
ad-hoc |
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KNOW
User ID: 206414 (OP)
United States
3/12/2007 12:05 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
Ivan Illich says :
The pupil is thereby "schooled" to confuse teaching with learning, grade advancement with education, a diploma with competence, and fluency with the ability to say something new. His imagination is "schooled" to accept service in place of value. Medical treatment is mistaken for health care, social work for the improvement of community life, police protection for safety, military poise for national security, the rat race for productive work. Health, learning, dignity, independence, and creative endeavor are defined as little more than the performance of the institutions which claim to serve these ends, and their improvement is made to depend on allocating more resources to the management of hospitals, schools, and other agencies in question.
This man should have received a Nobel Price ! |
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dumb
User ID: 206811
United States
3/12/2007 12:08 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
too much truth. |
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KNOW
User ID: 206408
United States
3/12/2007 1:16 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
too much truth. Quoting: dumb 206811
He is one of the few who is right on the spot.
Education is the key.
Another State Monopoly.
Look what the State demands if you want to start your own school. |
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John B.
User ID: 183469
United States
3/12/2007 1:24 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
Very, very interesting ! I've read the complete book in about 1 1/2 hour. Great piece ! Why have I never heard of him before ?
Thanks OP, will read more of Illich. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 196122
United States
3/12/2007 1:42 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
Thumbs UP !
Interesting ! |
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SpectrumBlue
User ID: 181546
United States
3/12/2007 1:48 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
Very interesting. I must say, I learned more outside of school then I did inside of school.
Dreams will begin as they fade into chaos. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 8414
United States
3/12/2007 2:24 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
Very interesting. I must say, I learned more outside of school then I did inside of school. Quoting: SpectrumBlue
Same here Spectrum, and when it's an area of personal interest, I learn much more than something forced down my throat for one reason or another.
I look forward to reading this, but I agree with the jyst of it, and have unschooled my own children the last 5 years in the natural learning way. |
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Tim
User ID: 203185
United States
3/12/2007 2:31 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
This man knew what he was talking about.
Never heard of him before, digged a little and found out he was heavily suppressed by our fine government. I've looked into some other works from him, the man is a genius. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 203185
United States
3/12/2007 2:39 PM | |
Sahih_Bukhari
User ID: 141057
United States
3/12/2007 2:57 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
awesome book.
incredible man.
the book "a history of needs" summarizes his
anti-institutional approach.
a very spiritual man who truly lived his beliefs.
towards the end of his life he developed
a cancerous growth on his face. he refused
standard medical treatment (keeping with his beliefs)
and smoked opium to ease the pain. at one point
he said, "i follow the naked Christ."
like a Catholic Michel Foucault. |
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KNOW
User ID: 197096
United States
3/12/2007 3:03 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
awesome book.
incredible man.
the book "a history of needs" summarizes his
anti-institutional approach.
a very spiritual man who truly lived his beliefs.
towards the end of his life he developed
a cancerous growth on his face. he refused
standard medical treatment (keeping with his beliefs)
and smoked opium to ease the pain. at one point
he said, "i follow the naked Christ."
like a Catholic Michel Foucault. Quoting: Sahih_Bukhari 141057
Would have loved to meet him once in my life.
Pitty. |
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K.C. Wildman
User ID: 207594
United States
3/12/2007 3:23 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
Very interesting. I must say, I learned more outside of school then I did inside of school. Quoting: SpectrumBlue
ditto
tested out of high school at 16
nothing there left to learn
useless information only makes the good stuff harder to remember
these words are just the ramblings of a domesticated savage |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 191988
United States
3/12/2007 3:32 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
The Earth is Flat is another great book.
You basically have to teach yourself. This worker bee enslavenment program called public school is a dead end. |
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BluzGal
User ID: 58341
United States
3/12/2007 3:39 PM
 | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
Seems incredible now, but in the late 60s, early 70s, there were a variety of experiments with alternative education designed to teach to each child's learning style; to integrate art, music, and movement into instruction; to identify which of Howard Gardner's 7 different intelligences were dominant in each child and gear instruction toward those strengths, and more. Illich's book was the alternative educators' bible in those days. Alas. School funding was soon cut so only the basics were droned at children who were too bored to learn. And now we reap what 35 years of soulless instruction has sown. Thanks, OP, for reminding us of this good book.
If you're interested in educational alternatives and are not an evangelical Christian, you might want to check out the closest Waldorf school -- an interesting approach that's been around since the 20s.+ |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 208029
 Canada
3/12/2007 3:56 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
Thanks OP. One of my mantras has been that the 20th century is a wasteland of literature and free thought. "Artists" spent the century trying to cram "art" into societal constructs (Brecht called it the scientification of society and people), hand all "thinking" over to experts, and live in aesthethic orgies, donc, what art had become.
Thinkers who tried to change this such as Brecht were pigeonholed as "Marxist" (a marxist with a belief in spirit, different thing), Camus as "absurdist" or Hemingway as an "adventurer". University curricula perpetuate this nonsense so that any work proposing societal change will be deemed "moralising" or some other stigmatic labels that we are all familiar with.
Ivan Illich has joined my list of thinkers who battled against all odds in the 20th century to make a difference. I'll be sure to make sure his name becomes better known. thanks. |
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October
User ID: 181509
United States
3/12/2007 3:57 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
Thanks for this, OP! 
Great timing as well!!
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KNOW
User ID: 197096
United States
3/12/2007 4:08 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
I never met the good man, but when I read his work, I read REASON and LOGIC. He certainly was profetic, read about "the learning webs" he mentioned.
Looks like this is one of the first "respected" threads, no trolls, or stupid comments. Hopefully it stays that way. Anyone who reads his works sees the truth within the message.
Education is the root of future.
That's how I think about it. |
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D. Smith
User ID: 199904
United States
3/12/2007 4:09 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
Seems incredible now, but in the late 60s, early 70s, there were a variety of experiments with alternative education designed to teach to each child's learning style; to integrate art, music, and movement into instruction; to identify which of Howard Gardner's 7 different intelligences were dominant in each child and gear instruction toward those strengths, and more. Illich's book was the alternative educators' bible in those days. Alas. School funding was soon cut so only the basics were droned at children who were too bored to learn. And now we reap what 35 years of soulless instruction has sown. Thanks, OP, for reminding us of this good book.
If you're interested in educational alternatives and are not an evangelical Christian, you might want to check out the closest Waldorf school -- an interesting approach that's been around since the 20s.+ Quoting: BluzGal
My wife is a teacher in Public school. Its a shame really she is person who has experienced so much in life and has so much to offer, yet is regulated to being a drone teaching for students to pass arbitrary test set up by the government. She like so many other teachers do their best to offer more, but it is difficult. Both my sisters are teachers as well, they have both taught in a number of private schools and report that the schools they taught at were not much better, no change in methods just different agendas. |
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KNOW
User ID: 197096
United States
3/12/2007 4:12 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
My wife is a teacher in Public school. Its a shame really she is person who has experienced so much in life and has so much to offer, yet is regulated to being a drone teaching for students to pass arbitrary test set up by the government. Quoting: D. Smith 199904
Respect to you both. |
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October
User ID: 181509
United States
3/12/2007 4:25 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
My wife is a teacher in Public school. Its a shame really she is person who has experienced so much in life and has so much to offer, yet is regulated to being a drone teaching for students to pass arbitrary test set up by the government.
Respect to you both. Quoting: KNOW 197096
Respect indeed...
Teachers and parents!! |
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Jahnets
User ID: 191736
United States
3/12/2007 4:46 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
Ivan Illich says :
The pupil is thereby "schooled" to confuse teaching with learning, grade advancement with education, a diploma with competence, and fluency with the ability to say something new. His imagination is "schooled" to accept service in place of value. Medical treatment is mistaken for health care, social work for the improvement of community life, police protection for safety, military poise for national security, the rat race for productive work. Health, learning, dignity, independence, and creative endeavor are defined as little more than the performance of the institutions which claim to serve these ends, and their improvement is made to depend on allocating more resources to the management of hospitals, schools, and other agencies in question.
This man should have received a Nobel Price ! Quoting: KNOW 206414
Bravo... really I wonder why I have never heard of him either...Stupid question I guess since he is radical enough that if society picked up on this TPTB would loose out big time... Great post... |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 207944
 Switzerland
3/12/2007 5:03 PM | |
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 197096
United States
3/12/2007 5:07 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
Now for some real DESCHOOLING SOCIETY
This example ALONE proves that the illuminati rule US and the EU
[ link to ]
Get lost with you Matt Maggot shit ! |
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KNOW
User ID: 197096
United States
3/12/2007 5:08 PM | |
Jahnets
User ID: 191736
United States
3/12/2007 5:11 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
"The original Pandora, the All-Giver, was an Earth goddess in prehistoric matriarchal Greece. She let all ills escape from her amphora (pythos). But she closed the lid before Hope could escape. The history of modern man begins with the degradation of Pandora's myth and comes to an end in the self-sealing casket. It is the history of the Promethean endeavor to forge institutions in order to corral each of the rampant ills. It is the history of fading hope and rising expectations."
He is soooo right here. They corral the sins so that no one really learns anything on their own about them. I have always felt that Earth is a school and the sins were let out on purpose to teach souls with. Each person needs different lessons, and a different way of learning, to cram everyone in a room to study a curiculum that society feels will make sure that everyone who has schooling at various levels will have is only those hiring people being lazy. Trying to find the easy way out, following the South Node...Lets face it, it really tells you nothing. It does not matter how many degrees you have. Some things you will not do as well at due to your own "desires" about it. Teachers fed up with students pass them on through or flunk them. This is a natural thing and not against teachers in any way. They are human also. The real problem is the students not wanting to learn what they are forced to learn. Any other way they see as chaos, but I do not see that the present way is not chaos and more and more students fall by the wayside because of it. They are made to feel bad like they can not do it when deep down they do not really want to do it and that is the issue, not how smart they are. What the soul wants and needs is the issue, not what the ego needs... |
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October
User ID: 181509
United States
3/12/2007 5:14 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
I think "deshooling" the population will only be possible after some massive societal change has occurred.
It seems that is about the only thing that will make people wake up and take notice...
For them to realize how easily and completely they've been misled.
That is going to be an arduous task for those of us who are the "deprogrammers" for society.
'Twill be well worth it though...once it's done, lol!
to all of us!!
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Eagle # 1
User ID: 207756
United States
3/12/2007 5:18 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
Spent 29 years in public education. Can positively verify that public education IS controlled by the city councils/board of education and the superintendent of schools through their lackies, principles and assistant principles.
ALL educational changes in courses taught is STRICTLY frownded upon, discouraged and if you insist, your job is threatened/taken. The only way was to work in minor changes
that were labled as part of existing programs and ONLY after 5 or 6 years into your career, when they were not looking over your sholder every day.
BUT, God help you if ONE student of a doctor/politician told his parent what you were doing in class and the parent was illiterate in the subject area. Suddenly, his embarassment became a political matter and with ONE phone call, you were told to stop immediately. Then, regardless of department head, school department heads previous approval, all hell would break lose. Most teachers who last the first three years are in it for the money.
ALL ideas pertaining to really teaching what is relivent to the outside JOB world and neaningful to the student is lost from the altruistic ideals the teacher once had. I had worked in Veterans Hospitals, Pratt and Whitney Aircraft, on both jet engines and the atomic engine, as well as other industries before becoming a teacher. I distinctly remember telling the superintendent of schools at the begining of the fall semester of my second year, that I now realized there were three distinct 'worlds' out there; the home, the work place and the school setting, and I could NOT see how the teachers who had never been a part of industry could make the CONNECTION between what they were teaching in their science classes, and what industry needed when they graduated.
To my suprise, the next year all teachers were REQUIRED to 'tour' some main industries in the city and actually see firsthand the skills required by the graduating student. Unfortunately, that was the LAST year for him, and that small bit of progress was LOST to the new POLITICAL employee to head the system.
Sorry for the rant, but after 40 years it still seems like yesterday, and I can still feel the sting of idealistic defeat to this day.
Eagle |
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October
User ID: 181509
United States
3/12/2007 5:21 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
Eagle!  |
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Eagle # 1
User ID: 207756
United States
3/12/2007 5:50 PM | | Re: DESCHOOLING SOCIETY | Quote |
Thanks. Most science teachers taught from the book/cirriculum. I had labs for all my classes, as you must realize can NOT be expected to sit still and read/write all the time with growing, active bodies; yet it was IMPOSED.
My reward ? At the begining of the school year, many eighth/nineth grade students had scheduling difficulties. As I was walking down the hall, an assistant principle of my 'House II' made my month, when out of 10 science teachers, 7 out of 10 students specifically asked to be placed in MY science classes. MADE my MONTH !
Eagle |
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