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A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.

 
mathetes
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04/07/2007 06:55 PM

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A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
Its been almost a year since I had this debate and being Easter I thought it time once again. The premise of this thread is that pagan gods had no influence on the writing of the Gospels. In any debate I've had on this subject no one has ever shown source material that proves their point, in other words no quotes from pseudo-scholars. Source material(documents or archaeological evidence) Please no long cut and pastes and lets be polite.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Anonymous Coward
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04/07/2007 07:00 PM
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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
My god is better than your god....
mathetes (OP)

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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
To get going I'll start with one that gets thrown around a lot. Krishna, the name means black in Sanskrit, no relation to the word Christ as many wrongly assume. He was the 8th child of Devaki (No virgin birth here)there is no mention in any of the Indian holy witings that say he was crucified as many assert, if you have a ref. from these soueces please give them. Link to Indian holy books [link to webonautics.com]
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Anonymous Coward
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04/07/2007 07:16 PM
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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
Easter Bunny, Eggs....The gospels may not be influenced, but the traditions most certianly have.

I like the idea of integrating festivals though, so I really have no problem with it.
Anonymous Coward
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04/07/2007 07:18 PM
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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
Read crusifiction of God bacco , cuculcan ... mayan christ

want more ?

Fuck you!
mathetes (OP)

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04/07/2007 07:18 PM

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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
Easter Bunny, Eggs....The gospels may not be influenced, but the traditions most certianly have.

I like the idea of integrating festivals though, so I really have no problem with it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 215730

Agreed there were a lot of pagan influences on the church in the 4th century and later.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Lester
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04/07/2007 07:21 PM
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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
If you consider the various organized religions to be representative of Christianity, (mainly roman catholicism), then it is impossible NOT to see the pagan influences.

But, BUT... IF you UNDERSTAND because you have a Relationship With God; then the point is moot.


Nobody who has surrendered their life Unto The Father needs organized religion. Jesus IS The Way Unto The Father. The Holy Spirit Gives HIS Witness unto those HE Abides Within.


If you have God, you don't need religion.
Those who don't understand, but don't Know HIM, aren't "lost or condemned", however they do not have Relationship, Guidance, Witness from and Of-HIM.

Do they?
Do you?


Man, acting in Self-will; even if motivated "for good" or for-God, remains alienated from HIM. Unless you Know HIM, you cannot Know HIS Will for you. "Good people", unless Guided by The Holy Spirit, are just out their winging it; not acting In HIS Accord.

What is anti-Christ?
Anything/anyone that purports to serve God, but rather is directed by Self-will. Anyone claiming to serve God, who doesn't Know HIM is a liar. There are many around.


If you've ever given your life, your will, your future to God; you KNOW, you remember. You Know if you were In HIS Presence. You can't fake it. Not to yourself; maybe to others, but not yourself.


How badly do you want to serve God?
Can you/have you made your surrender?


Those who have, KNOW HIM.
Those who KNOW HIM, need no man to teach them.
As Apostle John witnesses in 1st John 2:20-27 "because you have The Holy Spirit, you Know All Things and need no man to teach you."

Said so many other places in the Holy Scriptures, the same way. If God has Given you a new heart of Flesh, HE enables you to keep his statutes, walk In HIS Accord.... Ezekiel 36:26


Religion matters not.

Maranatha!!!
Christ Jesus IS Embarked back unto this world.
Sooner than you might believe.
mathetes (OP)

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04/07/2007 07:27 PM

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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
Uh? Thanks for your input Lester but I'm sorry it does no pertain to the subject at all, Happy Easter anyway!
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
HPL
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04/07/2007 08:00 PM
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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
Bored by an ordinary, nothing life?

Searching for excitement, power? Seeking a higher cause, one worthy of your very life?

The Campus Crusade for Cthulhu offers all this, AND MORE!

How does Tall, Green, and Slimey sound to you? Pretty scarey. But you can handle it. You will have to learn how to. You will learn to yearn for the soft squeezing caress of undulating tentacles. Or you will be eternally sorry that you did not.

Think that you are searching for meaning still? Well, search no more! We have found you. Soon, when you expect it least, our agents will contact you. Soon you will not have to worry about anything. Ever. Again.

We know more about you than you can ever learn about us. And who are we?

We are both the oldest and the newest college organization in existence. We are sponsored by the ancient Cthulhu Cult, which predates all history. Before the United States of America, before ancient Greece, before Atlantis. Before the first lIluminati attempts at world conquest our tentacles had an unbreakable grip upon the entire Earth. We have never let go.

Ever since we were pre-men, the Cthulhu Cult has served the Great Old Ones, the unspeakable horrors of legend. It is they who lived eons before they brought life upon this Earth. They came from distant unknown space, falling out of the sky upon our virgin Earth.

Through covert means, their lurking shapes held sway over our young planet, guiding its course to serve their own needs. They destroyed the dinosaurs when they were done with them, and so made way for the first men.

The Old Ones died three million years past, gone into the Earth, under the sea. Dead they were, yet undead, their dreaming still bodies reached out, and so molded the minds of our distant ancestors. The greatest of their High Priests, whom we know as Cthulhu, lay deep within his sunken R'lyeh Temple and guided all of history through the Cult. Ever we have prepared the world for the day they shall return. Then the world shall fall under the clinging grip of the Great Old Ones reborn. And only those who serve them in this life shall survive. For a time.

That is why we worship Cthulhu, why you cannot afford not to. Ever we await his return from his tomb at R'lyeh. For we know that the words ever hold true,

[link to www.locksley.com]
mathetes (OP)

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04/07/2007 08:06 PM

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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
Again another poster with nothing to add to the subject, where are all of the proponent of this subject?
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
B earlaker
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04/07/2007 08:08 PM
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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
bsflag
HeidiLore

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04/07/2007 08:09 PM
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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
Pagan origins of Easter:

Many, perhaps most, Pagan religions in the Mediterranean area had a major seasonal day of religious celebration at or following the Spring Equinox. Cybele, the Phrygian fertility goddess, had a fictional consort who was believed to have been born via a virgin birth. He was Attis, who was believed to have died and been resurrected each year during the period MAR-22 to MAR-25. "About 200 B.C. mystery cults began to appear in Rome just as they had earlier in Greece. Most notable was the Cybele cult centered on Vatican hill ...Associated with the Cybele cult was that of her lover, Attis (the older Tammuz, Osiris, Dionysus, or Orpheus under a new name). He was a god of ever-reviving vegetation. Born of a virgin, he died and was reborn annually. The festival began as a day of blood on Black Friday and culminated after three days in a day of rejoicing over the resurrection." 3

Wherever Christian worship of Jesus and Pagan worship of Attis were active in the same geographical area in ancient times, Christians "used to celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus on the same date; and pagans and Christians used to quarrel bitterly about which of their gods was the true prototype and which the imitation."

Many religious historians believe that the death and resurrection legends were first associated with Attis, many centuries before the birth of Jesus. They were simply grafted onto stories of Jesus' life in order to make Christian theology more acceptable to Pagans. Others suggest that many of the events in Jesus' life that were recorded in the gospels were lifted from the life of Krishna, the second person of the Hindu Trinity. Ancient Christians had an alternative explanation; they claimed that Satan had created counterfeit deities in advance of the coming of Christ in order to confuse humanity. 4 Modern-day Christians generally regard the Attis legend as being a Pagan myth of little value. They regard Jesus' death and resurrection account as being true, and unrelated to the earlier tradition.

Wiccans and other modern-day Neopagans continue to celebrate the Spring Equinox as one of their 8 yearly Sabbats (holy days of celebration). Near the Mediterranean, this is a time of sprouting of the summer's crop; farther north, it is the time for seeding. Their rituals at the Spring Equinox are related primarily to the fertility of the crops and to the balance of the day and night times. Where Wiccans can safely celebrate the Sabbat out of doors without threat of religious persecution, they often incorporate a bonfire into their rituals, jumping over the dying embers is believed to assure fertility of people and crops.
Visit my website...

[link to heidi-lore.tripod.com]

Need to email? heidilore@gmail.com

Visit the GLP video site and click on groups:

[link to youtube.com]

_____________

The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door. That's the only difference.

I believe I can see the future, 'cause I repeat the same routine. I think I used to have a purpose, but then again, it might have been a dream
Bearlaker
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04/07/2007 08:14 PM
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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
Excellent, Heidilore.
Anonymous Coward
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04/07/2007 08:25 PM
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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
Gaze into her face, and listen. The Dark Madonna whispers to us from a realm beyond time.

The darker the soil, the more fertile it is. Out of the darkness of the earth, into which the seeds are planted, life springs up. We see it in this season, in this place. Green grass sprouts out of the darkness beneath the hills of gold. In the dark hollows of the redwood forest, lacy ferns explode into life. In the darkness of the womb, new life grows and then emerges.

[link to tcpc.blogs.com]



When I opened the 5th seal

[link to www.thebluestar.co.uk]
Anonymous Coward
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04/07/2007 08:27 PM
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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
Short and sweet, the tell me who Amen RA was and why AMEN is still in use today? Wake up.
mathetes (OP)

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04/07/2007 08:29 PM

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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
Pagan origins of Easter:

Many, perhaps most, Pagan religions in the Mediterranean area had a major seasonal day of religious celebration at or following the Spring Equinox. Cybele, the Phrygian fertility goddess, had a fictional consort who was believed to have been born via a virgin birth. He was Attis, who was believed to have died and been resurrected each year during the period MAR-22 to MAR-25. "About 200 B.C. mystery cults began to appear in Rome just as they had earlier in Greece. Most notable was the Cybele cult centered on Vatican hill ...Associated with the Cybele cult was that of her lover, Attis (the older Tammuz, Osiris, Dionysus, or Orpheus under a new name). He was a god of ever-reviving vegetation. Born of a virgin, he died and was reborn annually. The festival began as a day of blood on Black Friday and culminated after three days in a day of rejoicing over the resurrection." 3

Wherever Christian worship of Jesus and Pagan worship of Attis were active in the same geographical area in ancient times, Christians "used to celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus on the same date; and pagans and Christians used to quarrel bitterly about which of their gods was the true prototype and which the imitation."

Many religious historians believe that the death and resurrection legends were first associated with Attis, many centuries before the birth of Jesus. They were simply grafted onto stories of Jesus' life in order to make Christian theology more acceptable to Pagans. Others suggest that many of the events in Jesus' life that were recorded in the gospels were lifted from the life of Krishna, the second person of the Hindu Trinity. Ancient Christians had an alternative explanation; they claimed that Satan had created counterfeit deities in advance of the coming of Christ in order to confuse humanity. 4 Modern-day Christians generally regard the Attis legend as being a Pagan myth of little value. They regard Jesus' death and resurrection account as being true, and unrelated to the earlier tradition.

Wiccans and other modern-day Neopagans continue to celebrate the Spring Equinox as one of their 8 yearly Sabbats (holy days of celebration). Near the Mediterranean, this is a time of sprouting of the summer's crop; farther north, it is the time for seeding. Their rituals at the Spring Equinox are related primarily to the fertility of the crops and to the balance of the day and night times. Where Wiccans can safely celebrate the Sabbat out of doors without threat of religious persecution, they often incorporate a bonfire into their rituals, jumping over the dying embers is believed to assure fertility of people and crops.
 Quoting: HeidiLore

Heidi the first pagan god you mentioned was Attis, do you have any source doc. to prove your statements about him, of course not none exist! From an expert on the subject: In a study devoted entirely to the subject of "soteriology"(study of salvation ) in the Attis cult, Gasparro finds no " statements about the prospects open to the mystai of Cybele and Attis" and "little basis in the documents in our possession" for the idea of "a ritual containing a symbology of death and resurrection to a new life." Gasparro, Sfameni. Soteriology: Mystic Aspects in the Cult of Cybele and Attis. Brill, 1995.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
mathetes (OP)

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04/07/2007 08:31 PM

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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
Next you mentioned Krishna which I already covered but here it is again: Krishna, the name means black in Sanskrit, no relation to the word Christ as many wrongly assume. He was the 8th child of Devaki (No virgin birth here)there is no mention in any of the Indian holy witings that say he was crucified as many assert, if you have a ref. from these soueces please give them. Link to Indian holy books [link to webonautics.com]
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Anonymous Coward
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04/07/2007 08:38 PM
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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
Jeremiah 10:1-5 in the Bible says the following (NIV):

1 Hear what the LORD says to you, O house of Israel. 2 This is what the LORD says: "Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them. 3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. 4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter. 5 Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good." (NIV)


Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." (KJV).




Pagans in the past did not cut down evergreen trees, bring them into their homes and decorate them. That would have been far too destructive of nature. But during the Roman celebration of the feast of Saturnalia, Pagans did decorate their houses with clippings of evergreen shrubs. They also decorated living trees with bits of metal and replicas of their God, Bacchus. Tertullian (circa 160 - 230),



Pagan traditions: Many Pagan cultures used to cut boughs of evergreen trees in December, move them into the home or temple, and decorate them. 7 Modern-day Pagans still do. This was to recognize the winter solstice -- the time of the year that had the shortest daylight hours, and longest night of the year. This occurs annually sometime between DEC-20 to 23. They noticed that the days were gradually getting shorter; many feared that the sun would eventually disappear forever, and everyone would freeze. But, even though deciduous trees, bushes, and crops died or hibernated for the winter, the evergreen trees remained green. They seemed to have magical powers that enabled them to withstand the rigors of winter. Not having evergreen trees, the ancient Egyptians considered the palm tree to symbolize resurrection. They decorated their homes with its branches during the winter solstice. 3
"The first decorating of an evergreen tree began with the heathen Greeks and their worship of their god Adonia, who allegedly was brought back to life by the serpent Aessulapius after having been slain." 5
The ancient Pagan Romans decorated their "trees with bits of metal and replicas of their god, Bacchus [a fertility god]. They also placed 12 candles on the tree in honor of their sun god" 2 Their mid-winter festival of Saturnalia started on DEC-17 and often lasted until a few days after the Solstice.
In Northern Europe, the ancient Germanic people tied fruit and attached candles to evergreen tree branches, in honor of their god Woden. Trees were viewed as symbolizing eternal life. This is the deity after which Wednesday was named. The trees joined holly, mistletoe, the wassail bowl and the Yule log as symbols of the season. All predated Christianity. 5
mathetes (OP)

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04/07/2007 08:38 PM

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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
Short and sweet, the tell me who Amen RA was and why AMEN is still in use today? Wake up.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 217698

Your not serious are you, this is very weak and has no merit at all. And heres why the Hebrew "Amen" is never used as a salutation and means "let it be so" which means it is not "invoked" as a deity is. Beyond that, let's see an etymological connection based on the original languages, not on the correspondence of English characters.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
HeidiLore

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04/07/2007 08:39 PM
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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
It doesn't matter what you say. His god reigns supreme, regardless of common sense...
Visit my website...

[link to heidi-lore.tripod.com]

Need to email? heidilore@gmail.com

Visit the GLP video site and click on groups:

[link to youtube.com]

_____________

The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door. That's the only difference.

I believe I can see the future, 'cause I repeat the same routine. I think I used to have a purpose, but then again, it might have been a dream
mathetes (OP)

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04/07/2007 08:42 PM

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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
It doesn't matter what you say. His god reigns supreme, regardless of common sense...
 Quoting: HeidiLore

Nice debate, I asked for source documents and you cannot provide them, we can say whatever we want or read something and post it that has no backing ,how about some proof?
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Anonymous Coward
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04/07/2007 08:42 PM
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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
I am slayed by the thread, I always thought he was anti religion.

I smell intent.



It doesn't matter what you say. His god reigns supreme, regardless of common sense...
 Quoting: HeidiLore
Bearlaker
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04/07/2007 08:43 PM
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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
A Christian, demanding proof? That's rich.
mathetes (OP)

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04/07/2007 08:44 PM

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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
By the way Heidi I answered your post and I guess you can't refute the response so you attack me, nice!
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
HeidiLore

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04/07/2007 08:44 PM
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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
It doesn't matter what you say. His god reigns supreme, regardless of common sense...

Nice debate, I asked for source documents and you cannot provide them, we can say whatever we want or read something and post it that has no backing ,how about some proof?
 Quoting: mathetes


I can provide you with many links, but you will regard them as superficial and inaccurate, so why should I? But for your edification...

[link to www.religioustolerance.org]

[link to www.lasttrumpetministries.org]
Visit my website...

[link to heidi-lore.tripod.com]

Need to email? heidilore@gmail.com

Visit the GLP video site and click on groups:

[link to youtube.com]

_____________

The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door. That's the only difference.

I believe I can see the future, 'cause I repeat the same routine. I think I used to have a purpose, but then again, it might have been a dream
Anonymous Coward
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04/07/2007 08:45 PM
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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
The Catholic Church burned most of the source documents. They needed to cover up what they had done.
HeidiLore

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04/07/2007 08:46 PM
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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
By the way Heidi I answered your post and I guess you can't refute the response so you attack me, nice!
 Quoting: mathetes


I just did refute you...we both know it makes no sense to provide you with anything, you will refute anything I say. Most of this is common knowledge that ANY first year cultural anthropology student can share with you.
Visit my website...

[link to heidi-lore.tripod.com]

Need to email? heidilore@gmail.com

Visit the GLP video site and click on groups:

[link to youtube.com]

_____________

The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door. That's the only difference.

I believe I can see the future, 'cause I repeat the same routine. I think I used to have a purpose, but then again, it might have been a dream
HeidiLore

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04/07/2007 08:46 PM
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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
The Catholic Church burned most of the source documents. They needed to cover up what they had done.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2298


That is very true.
Visit my website...

[link to heidi-lore.tripod.com]

Need to email? heidilore@gmail.com

Visit the GLP video site and click on groups:

[link to youtube.com]

_____________

The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door. That's the only difference.

I believe I can see the future, 'cause I repeat the same routine. I think I used to have a purpose, but then again, it might have been a dream
Anonymous Coward
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04/07/2007 08:54 PM
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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
You're awesome Mathetes. Do you know if there's an entire page or something that debunks "The Naked Truth" (The Pagan Gods part)? I've tried disproving some on my own. But I have limited knowledge on most of the examples.
mathetes (OP)

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04/07/2007 08:57 PM

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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
The Catholic Church burned most of the source documents. They needed to cover up what they had done.


That is very true.
 Quoting: HeidiLore

Because you cannot provide anything you say they were all destoryed? How convenient! On your links the 2nd provides no footnotes whatsoever and this is form your 1st link "The name "Easter" originated with the names of an ancient Goddess and God. The Venerable Bede, (672-735 CE.) a Christian scholar, first asserted" So your link gives as proof someone from the 8th century, not much influence and of course he gives no source info.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Anonymous Coward
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04/07/2007 09:02 PM
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Re: A Easter challenge :pagan gods had no influence on Biblical Christianity.
How about the Christmas tree thingy..

Evergreens
Gold and Silver decor
Lights/Candles
Late Dec


For one of their gods.


Jerimiah in all versions clearly states Idol Worship. This was 'before' Christ was born into that current role. Around 160 AD I believe.

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