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RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007

 
Anonymous Coward
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RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
[link to dont_use_this.com]

It may happen, be prepared!
Anonymous Coward
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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
[link to snipurl.com]
wing-ed

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05/15/2007 10:33 AM

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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
Praise the Holy Of HolY: 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:--The dead in Christ arose after crusifiction-- Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,Luk 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Luk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. :::Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up, out of your graves, AND THE RAPTURE HAS TAKEN PLACE EVERYDAY SENSE!
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent the body, and to be present with the Lord.Praise the Holy of Holy:amen
SO you see the rapture takes place at death every day because Jesus was here!!
Holy, holy,holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.Praise the one who gives you peace beyond all understanding Yes that scripture still sounds good !
Anonymous Coward
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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
This quote from that thread you linked to made me laugh:


"Do you think, if I chained twenty or so of the right people together, I could float up with them? Or would I just create a Christio-dirigible? I need to know a.s.a.p. It's just that, I'm gonna have to start buying the rope and a lawn chair soon. Thanks."
Dismas

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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
This Rapture crap just won't die! It is so sad how the protestant movement want so much to create their "own" traditions that they will go to no-limits to do so-even if what they teach is a down-right lie!

I was born & raised a protestant-I know first-hand what I'm talking about. Protestant church services have absolutely no rhyme or reason to anything other than what that particular pastor feels "led" to preach about. So, "his" take on life, the Bible, God, etc. colors his parishioners directly. If "his" attitude/understanding of God's Word is out of line-oh, well! The church be-bops right along-straight down primrose lane.

I cannot tell you how many times, I myself have witness a church being split-divided and or destroyed because, of some holier-than-thou preacher thinking he's God's gift to the world!

This kind of problem will always plague the protestant-movement because, they have no real history/tradition/rituals etc. Each denomination is at the whim of a handful of mostly "un-educated" leaders who structure the church/services according to "their" desires!

When I say un-educated, I'm refering to the fact that their education is not as fine-tuned to theology as say the priest of the Catholic Church (where every aspect of the Mass and everything else involving the Church is well organized and steeped in historical reference and traditions/rituals.)

The Rature doctrine is yet another half-witted ploy to give the protestants some kind of claim of credibility but, unfortunately, it is not founded on sound Biblical teachings. It is nothing more than a "johnny-come-lately" LIE that protestants are swallowing, hook-line & sinker because, they are too ignorant to research the crap their preachers throw at them! They are too willing to accept the preachers word as divine because, he has a "calling!" What garbage!

still, don't take my word-check it out yourselves. Here's a link/essay to get you started-enjoy!

Dismas

ps - The other day I passed by a local Baptist Church-they had a fancy display-board underneath their church sign. The display-board advertised, "traditional" "contemporary" and "blended" services and gave the times! It sounded more like a coffee shop than a church! It would have been funny if it hadn't been so sad.
If that isn't a blatant attempt to appeal to "everybody" and an obvious display of grasping at straws for credibility, I don't know what is!

[link to askelm.com]

The Rapture Theory:
It's Surprising Origin

by Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D., 1976

Almost all Christians are interested in prophecy. This is especially so if the prophecies show what will happen to Christians themselves. There is nothing wrong in desiring such personal knowledge. Even our Lord gave a considerable amount of teaching about the circumstances to befall His people at the end of the age (Matthew 24:22-25). All of us share a common concern in wanting to know about the participants, the chronology, and the geography of those prophecies. To comprehend the full knowledge of them it is obvious that all relevant statements of our Lord and His apostles must be properly interpreted and placed into a coherent order. Many Christians have attempted to do this. As a consequence, the doctrine of the Rapture has arisen. So important has it become to many that the teaching is now sanctioned as the prime revelation from God to show what will happen Lo members of His church just before and during the second coming of Christ. Some even look on it as the heart and core of present Christian expectations! Because of this, it will pay us to review what the doctrine is all about.

The word "Rapture" is not found in the Bible. There is also no single word used by the biblical authors to describe the prophetic factors which comprise the doctrine. Its formulation has come about by means of induction. Certain biblical passages concerning the second coming (and the role that Christians will play in that event) have been inductively blended together to establish the teaching. The modern expression "Rapture" was then invented to explain the overall teaching and the term suits the subject well. The basic tenets of the doctrine are uninvolved. Simply put, it purports that Christ will come back to this earth in two phases. He will first return invisibly to rapture His church away from this world so that they might escape (or partially escape the prophetical tribulation to occur near the end of the age, then later Christ will return in a visible advent to dispense His wrath on the world's nations. This is the general teaching.

Many details concerning these prime factors, however, are hotly debated. There is especially much argument over the chronological features associated with it. Some think the time lapse between the two phases will be 3 1/2 years, others say 7 years. Some feel that the Rapture of the church occurs before the Tribulation, others about mid-way through, Many suggest that the church will be taken to heaven for protection, but a few have proposed a geographical area on this earth. There are those who feel that only part of the church will escape, while others say all will he rescued, These variations, along with others, have multiplied the interpretations to such an extent that many diverse secondary opinions exist among those holding the belief. But all are unanimous on one point: the central theme of the Rapture shows that Christ will return to earth in two phases.

The Newness of the Doctrine
It may come as a surprise to many Christians, but the doctrine of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, of which we have knowledge, until after the year 1830 A.D. Whether the early writers were Greek or Latin, Armenian or Coptic, Syrian or Ethiopian, English or German, orthodox or heretic, no one mentioned a syllable about it. Of course, those who feel the origin of the teaching is in the Bible would say that it only ceased being taught (for some unknown reason) at the close of the apostolic age only to reappear in 1830 A.D. But if the doctrine were so clearly stated in Scripture, it seems incredible that no one should have referred to it before the 19th century. This does not necessarily show that the teaching is wrong, but it does mean that thousands of eminent scholars who lived over a span of seventeen centuries (including some of the most astute of the "Christian Fathers" and those of the Reformation and post-Reformation periods) must be considered as prophetic dunces for not having understood so fundamental a teaching. We are not denigrating the doctrine in mentioning these historical facts. That is not our intention. But we do feel that the Foundation should show the historical problems associated with the teaching. This lapse of seventeen centuries when no one mentioned anything about it must be a serious obstacle to its reliability.

Its Beginning
The result of a careful investigation into the origin of the Rapture has been recently published. The book is an excellent one which deserves to be read by all people interested in the subject. Its title: "The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin" by Dave MacPherson. He catalogs a great deal of historical material which answers the doctrine's mysterious derivation. We wish to review the results of his research. In the middle 1820's a religious environment began to be established among a few Christians in London. England which proved to be the catalyst around which the doctrine of the Rapture emerged. Expectations of the soon coming of our Lord were being voiced, This was no new thing, but what, was unusual was the teaching by a Presbyterian minister named Edward Irving that there had to be a restoration of the spiritual gifts mentioned in I Corinthians 12-14 just before Christ's second coming. To Irving, the time had come for those spiritual manifestations to occur. Among the expected gifts was the renewal of speaking in tongues and of spirit-motivated prophetic utterances. Irving began to propagate his beliefs. His oratorical skills and enthusiasm caused his congregation in London to grow. Then a number of people began to experience the "gifts." Once this happened opposition from the organized churches set in. It resulted in Irving's dismissal from the Presbyterian church in 1832. His group then established themselves as the Catholic Apostolic Church and continued the teachings of Irving.

These events were the beginnings of what some call present day Pentecostalism. Indeed Irving has been called by some church historians "the father of modern Pentecostalism." What does all this have to do with the origin of the Rapture doctrine? Very much indeed. Let us look at what happened in the year 1830 -- two years before Irving's dismissal from the Presbyterian church. In that year a revival of the "gifts" began to be manifested among a few people living in the lowlands of Scotland. They experienced what they called the outpouring of the Spirit. It was accompanied with speaking in "tongues" and other charismatic phenomena. Irving had been preaching these things must occur, and now they were.

On one particular evening. the power of the Holy Spirit was said to have rested on a Miss Margaret .Macdonald while she was in a state of illness at home. She was dangerously sick and thought she was dying. In spite of this (or perhaps because she is supposed to have come under "power" of the spirit for several successive hours during which she experienced the manifestations of "mingled prophecy and vision." The message she received during this prophetic vision convinced her that Christ was going to appear in two stages at His second coming -- and not one! The emanation revealed that Christ would first come in glory to them that look for Him and again in a final stage when every eye would see Him. It was this visionary experience of Miss Macdonald which represents the prime source of the modern Rapture doctrine as the historical evidence compiled by Mr. MacPherson abundantly shows.

The Influence of John Darby
Many people have thought that John Darby, the founder of the Plymouth Brethren, was the originator of the Rapture doctrine. This is not the case. Darby was a brilliant theologian with outstanding scholarly abilities. Even those who have disagreed with his teachings admit that he, and many associated with him, helped to cause a revival in biblical learning throughout the evangelical world (which even has been perpetuated down to our own present day). All who love biblical research ought to be thankful for what Darby and especially his associates accomplished for biblical scholarship. They particularly helped pave the way for the renewal of modern lexical studies of the languages of the Bible. The doctrine of "dispensationalism" was also a teaching they brought to the attention of the Protestant world.

It had long been thought by many Christians that the Rapture doctrine originated with ,John Darby. It is now known that this is not true. Darby only popularized it. Scofield and others who took over Darby's mantle later helped to make it respectable, Today, many of those in the evangelical sphere of Christianity are so certain of its veracity that it is accepted as the absolute truth of God. The fact is, however, John Darby received the knowledge of the doctrine from someone else. The source was the Margaret Macdonald mentioned above.

The studies of Mr. MacPherson show that her sickness during which she received her visions and revelations occurred sometime between February 1 and April 14, 1830. And by late spring and early summer of 1830, her belief in the two phases of Christ's coming was being mentioned in praise and prayer meetings in several towns of western Scotland. In these meetings some people were speaking in "tongues" and other charismatic occurrences were in evidence. These extraordinary and strange events in western Scotland so attracted John Darby that he made a trip to the area to witness himself what was going on. Though he did not approve of the ecstatic episodes that he witnessed. it is nonetheless significant that Darby, after returning from Scotland, began to teach that Christ's second coming would occur in two phases. MacPherson shows good evidence that Darby had even visited Miss Macdonald in her home. There can hardly he any doubt that the visions of Miss Macdonald are the source of the modern doctrine.

Visions and Dreams
While it is possible that visionary revelations can come from God, it is always prudent to be cautious in such matters. Near the same time that Miss Macdonald was receiving her visions, Joseph Smith in America was experiencing his apparitions which brought Mormon doctrines to the world. John Wilson also had his dreams which were the spark that started the false teaching of British realism. Not long afterwards Ellen G. White received her visions that resulted in many Seventh Day Adventist teachings. And remarkably, all these individuals received revelations of doctrines which were much at variance with one another. Such incidents bring to mind the warning that God gave to Moses.

"If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto thee, saying, let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

Deuteronomy 13: 1-3

The teachings of visionaries also recall to mind what the apostle John tells Christians.

"Beloved. believe not every spirit. but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

I John 4:1

And though some point to the prophecy of Daniel that "knowledge shall be increased" (Daniel 12:4) a proof that the revival of doctrinal truths will occur at the end of the age, this is not what Daniel meant. If one reads the prophet carefully. he will find that Daniel is speaking about the knowledge of his prophecies which will be increased. not the revival of general doctrines. In the original text of Daniel the definite article occurs before the word "knowledge." Daniel actually said "THE knowledge will be increased" and the text shows he means "the knowledge of his prophecies." Daniel is in no way speaking about renewing of doctrines at the time of the end. A further admonition is necessary concerning the origins of teachings which might happen near our own time. It is by the apostle Paul.

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils."

I Timothy 4:1

These warnings from God's word are given as a reminder that we ought to exercise caution in accepting the truthfulness of visionary revelations especially those that happen near the end of the age and are contradictory to themselves or the Bible.

Conclusion
While there are many suspicious factors conferred with the origin of the Rapture, it could be admitted that the doctrine may reflect a teaching found in the Bible. At least, many feel so. John Darby no doubt thought there was something to it because after his trip to Scotland he changed his mind from believing in a single stage coming and adopted the two stage doctrine which became known as the Rapture. Darby was certainly not a visionary and his teachings whether right or wrong) are almost always based on scriptural revelation. It was Darby who popularized the Rapture with the scriptural arguments which seem so convincing to some. It could be that the teaching is basically true, but we at the Foundation for Biblical Research in Pasadena have felt incumbent to show our readers the unbiblical source of the doctrine. Too many people have for gotten that it was Miss Macdonald's visions which introduced the doctrine to the world.

In our next Exposition in this series we to show the biblical evidences which tend to support the doctrine. In the one to follow. we'll show those which seemingly speak against it. Our desire to place into your hands the necessary evidence for you to make up your own minds on the In closing, we wish to state one word that no one can gainsay. Whether one believes in the rapture or not, it has nothing to do with the assured salvation that all Christians have in Christ. That is a fact!


Ernest L. Martin
Dismas Zoathan

I've been there-done that so, follow me, I might be a little less lost than you. If not-tag, you're it!
SpectrumBlue

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05/15/2007 11:28 AM
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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
I refuse to go. I'm not leaving my family and friends.
Dreams will begin as they fade into chaos.
Anonymous Coward
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05/15/2007 11:38 AM
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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
The rapture is not going to be today.

The rapture is not going to be tomorrow.

Get into the Word, get into prayer, and get ready for what is ahead.

Instead of getting ready to go, you need to get ready to win souls.
Anonymous Coward
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Sign on the back of my old Dakota;

when the rapture happens, can i have your truck?
Dismas

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05/15/2007 11:40 AM
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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
THE "RAPTURE" DOCTRINE [IV]
"The Origin of the Secret Rapture Doctrine"
by Dr. Les Aron Gosling, Rebbe (e-mail: info@biblicalresearchinstitute.com)

"RAPTURE"

One cannot help but assume the secret rapture theory to be an ancient historical belief of mainstream Christianity due to the enormous publicity it receives, and the mammoth number of books, lectures, sermons and wall-charts that teach it as a biblical fact, and which are presently available in the Christian marketplace. The doctrine is also heavily promoted on Christian audio-tapes, on TV programs, in films and on lapel buttons and car bumper stickers. I recently saw a car bearing the sticker, "In case of Rapture this vehicle will be driverless." In my opinion, the owner was spiritually brainless, or theologically brain-dead, to so openly and brazenly display such inconsideration toward his/her fellow human beings for whom Mashiach also died.

Western Christians live their lives as if they were the only believers on Earth. This is illustrated clearly in their view of Christians avoiding tribulation or "wrath." They seem to be oblivious to the fact that in ancient times Christians were burned alive, crucified, sold as slaves, and thrown to wild beasts in Roman arenas for the amusement of the blood-lusting crowds. They seem to be oblivious to the fact that during the height of the Roman Catholic Church’s power, believers underwent a score of horrifying torturous ordeals. They experienced man’s wrath, and Satan’s wrath, in every conceivable form. Burnings, rape and drownings were commonplace. Foxe even records (in his Book of Martyrs) how women of all ages had starving rats forced into their vaginas and were then sewn up leaving the rat to chew its way into the abdomen in order to get out of the trap it was in. Horrifying? Feel like fainting? Don’t write in to BRI protesting the content matter of our lectures -- this is history and as Christians we should face up to the past with honesty. How can we face up to the past if none of us are aware that things like this actually happened? And they are happening still.

Western Christians seem oblivious that believers in other parts of the world are undergoing horrendous difficulties. And they are apparently ignorant to the tribulation, gaoling and martyrdom already experienced by countless numbers of faithful Christians in China, Russia, Romania, Cuba and Poland. We won’t even begin to list their problems or even begin to mention the trials and wrath encountered by believers in Middle Eastern nations and Black African states.

Someone should have told the millions of Chinese Christians who went to their deaths during Mao’s reign of terror, or the 250,000 Christian martyrs who perished around the globe in 1980-82 that they were not appointed to "wrath."

Strangely, one of the main points of the rapturist’s belief states that Messiah is coming for His saints without being noticed by the world! In their own words they state categorically:

"Quickly and INVISIBLY, unperceived by the world, the Lord will come as a thief in the night and catch away His waiting saints" (Jesse Silver, The Lord’s Return, 1914, 260). "His appearance in the clouds will be veiled to the human eye and NO ONE WILL SEE HIM. He will slip in, slip out; move in to get His jewels and slip out as under the cover of night" (Oral Roberts, How to be Personally Prepared for the Second Coming of Christ, 1967, 34). "It will be a SECRET rapture - QUIET, NOISELESS, sudden as the step of the thief in the night. All that the world will know will be that multitudes at once have gone" (G.S. Bishop, The Doctrine of Grace, 341). "In the rapture only the Christians see Him - it’s a mystery, a SECRET" (Hal Lindsey, The Late Great Planet Earth, 1970, 143). "[The rapture] will be a SECRET appearing, and only the believers will know about it" (Herschel Ford, Seven Simple Sermons on the Second Coming, 1946, 51).

With all due respect to the adherents of the secret two-stage coming of Our Lord, the very Scripture on which the above statements is based implies the absolute EXACT OPPOSITE!

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a SHOUT, with the VOICE of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Messiah shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thes 4:16-17).

This text implies anything but a secret, quiet, unknown event. Rather the noise level will be horrific and involve an astonishing resurrection power surge unleashed in untold millions of people receiving new bodies of immortal, incorruptible SPIRIT! If the great apostle Paul was trying to describe a secret and quiet event, he certainly chose the wrong words!

In fact even Yeshua Himself knew well in advance that the Church would fall into grave error on just this aspect of His coming, and He WARNED AGAINST THE RAPTURE! Notice it now:

"If any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Messiah, or there; believe it not... If they shall say unto you... Behold He is in the SECRET chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Mt 24:23-27).

The only thing secret about the coming of Yeshua is the timing (Mt 24:36,43-44; 2 Pet 3:10). Not only is this the case, but Yeshua went on to assure His disciples that, rather than escape trials and tribulation (another important tenet of the rapturists) the Messianic Community would be subject to these very same conditions!

"In the world you shall have TRIBULATION" (Jn 16:33).

The Messianic Community would experience tribulation. Yet, even though they would suffer immensely from the wrath of man Mashiach never expected His followers would exit the planet. In fact He stated clearly enough "I pray NOT that thou [God] shouldest take them out of the world, but that you shouldest keep them from the evil" (Jn 17:15).

Just how plain are these words of Messiah! It was not His will that the disciples escape the confines of the world. One rapturist argued with me that these words of Yeshua applied only to His apostles at the time He spoke them. She failed to realise that in the same breath Yeshua added: "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which believe on me through their word" (Jn 17:20).

This statement includes us today! We are the inheritors of the message -- the Gospel -- of Messiah. In no way does Mesiah want any of us to leave the planetary environs -- His own statements have to be twisted for any evidence of a special, secret, quiet coming of the Lord for His saints. But these are factors often overlooked by believers in the two-stage rapture of the Messianic Community.

Some honest rapturists recognise the enormous difficulties involved in piecing together Margaret Macdonald’s new revelations about the "coming" of the Lord with the plain statements of the Scripture. And so they have attempted to devise word-gymnastics in order to extricate themselves and their doctrine from the pitfalls and flaws that they themselves admit are involved in believing in the two-stage second coming of the Messiah. As one scholar put it, the rapture cannot be the "coming" of "Christ" at all!

"Strictly speaking, the rapture is NOT THE SECOND COMING AT ALL. The second coming is the visible, local, bodily appearance of Christ in the clouds of heaven as he returns to this earth... in power and great glory" (Frank M. Boyd, Ages and Dispensations, 1955, 60).

Admits another: "The thrilling event which will both mark the end of the day and open the door for the Great Tribulation is the rapture... Specifically speaking, THIS IS NOT THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST. Rather this is the rapture, or the catching up, of the true church" (William W. Orr, Antichrist, Armageddon, and the End of the World, 1966, 9).

The problem now is that this ingenious manoeuvre raises more questions than it solves, and defies the plain words of the Lord Himself, "Be ye therefore also ready: for in such an hour that ye think not the Son of man COMETH" (Mt 24:44).

Why on earth would the Lord warn His disciples about the imperative need to be ready for the COMING of the Son of man, if the rapture takes place before His coming?

Again, Yeshua commanded His true disciples: "Occupy till I COME" (Lk 19:13). How then could the church be expected to "occupy until He comes" if the church will be raptured away seven years, or three-and-a-half years, before His coming?

We must press the point. Yeshua said: "I will COME again, and receive you unto myself" (Jn 14:3).

Therefore, according to no less an authority than Yeshua the Messiah Himself, it is when He COMES that He receives His people unto Himself -- if words still mean anything. This "receiving" is decidedly not seven years, or three-and-a-half years, before His COMING. This is why the apostles all admonished the Messianic Community, "Be patient then, brethren, unto the COMING of the Lord... for yet a little while, and He that shall COME will COME, and will not tarry" (Heb 10:36-37; Jam 5:7).

Now I don’t care if the last two references were sent to the Jewish saints as one body or the Gentile saints as another body -- the COMING of Messiah is the COMING of Messiah is the COMING of Messiah! WHY exhort the brethren to be patient unto the COMING of the Lord, if their true hope was some rapture prior to His COMING?

Paul did not think the rapture was a different event from the coming of Mashiach (1 Cor 1:7). For, he is adamant in referring to the rapture as the COMING of Mashiach (1 Thes 4:15) -- yes, he states it right in the middle of the so-called rapture passage.

The secret rapture doctrine is illogical and contradictory. Yet where did such a pernicious idea originate?

The period which brought forth Ellen White, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, Charles Taze Russell, the Fox sisters, Helena Blavatsky and Annie Besant, the British Israelites and others of similar ilk, also gave birth to a certain Miss Margaret Macdonald in Scotland.

The Macdonald family was decidedly Pentecostal. They were preoccupied with the gifts of healing, and tongues. Not only did they speak in tongues, they interpreted them as well. They lived in Port Glascow and in the year 1830 the ignorant peasant girl, Margaret Macdonald, had visions of "Christ’s" return. Robert Norton, a clergyman and British physician, retold the events of 1830 but added that in his understanding Macdonald had studied the Scriptures and arrived at the view that there was to be a two-stage coming of the Lord for His saints before the dreaded "tribulation" (The Restoration of Apostles & Prophets: In the Catholic Apostolic Church, 1861). He wrote, "[W]e FIRST SEE the distinction between that final stage of the Lord’s coming, when every eye shall see Him, and His prior appearing in glory to them that look for Him" (p.15).

It is a contemporary admission, concerning the origin of the rapture theory, about which almost nobody today knows anything. Norton, in other words, was admitting that this doctrine was brand NEW -- no one had ever heard of it before in the entire history of the church!

But he was in error in his consideration that the Macdonald girl had "studied" the Bible on the two-stage coming of the Mesiah. Norton seems to have wanted to give the doctrine the cloak of "respectability." Macdonald herself admits it came through a prophetic trance!

In part, her utterance reads: "Now there is distress of nations with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men’s hearts failing them for fear - now look for the sign of the Son of man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, O it is not known what the sign of the Son of man is... I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even Jesus... men think it will be something seen by the natural eye; but ‘tis spiritual discernment that is needed ...Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance... ’tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air... I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then shall we be caught up to meet him."

For centuries the church believed in and taught the open, visible, awesome second Advent of Yeshua. Now, suddenly, with the trance-like visions and prophetic utterances of a religious peasant Edomite woman in an obscure town in Scotland something not previously known was presented -- the coming of the Lord alone, the Lord not seen, a quiet Advent, a secret coming!

Norton became a member of the Pentecostal "Catholic Apostolic Church" which was presided over by Edward Irving, who was an acquaintance of Margaret Macdonald! Irving had founded the sect after being excommunicated from the Presbyterian assembly for his teaching of this "new revelation" which he had enthusiastically embraced.

The new teaching of the secret coming of Yeshua for His saints was soon preached among the so-called Plymouth Brethren, and to be expected it split the church. In 1864, S.P. Tregelles, one of those members who rejected the introduction of such a new theory, noted: "I am not aware that there was any definite teaching [among the original Brethren] that there should be a secret rapture of the church at a secret coming UNTIL this was given forth as an ‘utterance’ in Mr Irving’s church from what was then received as being the voice of the Spirit. But whether any one ever asserted such a thing or not it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology respecting it arose. It came, NOT from the Holy Scripture, but from THAT WHICH FALSELY PRETENDED TO BE THE SPIRIT OF GOD" (The Hope of Christ’s Second Coming, 1864, 34-37).

Yet with its introduction, it was taught and preached as if it had always been taught and preached by the entire universal church.

Another very early convert to the church was an Englishman from Doncaster, Robert Baxter. Researcher Dave MacPherson notes, "Baxter had gone down to London in the fall of 1831, visited some of the prayer meetings which preceded the manifestations [spiritual gifts such as prophesying in the middle of a sermon, and speaking in tongues entirely at an inappropriate time and thus Scripturally out of order] in Irving’s church, and soon was a regular attendant at Irving’s services. He then became endowed with the prophetic utterances and had a number of personal revelations. Later, when certain prophecies made by him and others simply were not fulfilled, he became disillusioned and felt that he had been deceived and had in turn deceived others" (The Incredible Cover-Up: The True Story of the Pre-Trib Rapture, Logos International, Plainfield, NJ, 1975, 86).

Not only was this the case, but Baxter himself wrote an expose about the Irvingites in 1833. In one section he states: "There are some general characteristics in the work, which, apart from doctrines or instances of failure of predictions, cast suspicion upon it. One is the extreme secrecy enjoined by the spirit, and the manifest shrinking from public examination. The spirit has, both in England and Scotland, forbidden the writing down of utterances, and even the attempt to repeat them verbatim. Thus errors and contradictions are more easily concealed and explained away" (Narrative of Facts, Characterising the Supernatural Manifestations in Members of Mr Irving’s Congregation, and Other Individuals, in England and Scotland, and Formerly in the Writer Himself, 1833, 126).

In another part of the British Isles, the brilliant John Darby -- a noted scholar in the biblical field who penned more than 30 volumes of 600 pages each, and produced a translation of the Bible with notes (which BRI also utilises in its research activities) -- accepted the secret rapture, after visiting the Macdonald home in 1830, and gave the Macdonald belief much needed respectability when he presented it to the Brethren about a year later. But, although he was the undisputed leader of the Plymouth Brethren, his views on this subject were opposed by his equal, Benjamin W. Newton, who rejected Darby’s new views as "nonsense" and split the Movement. He was joined in his opposition by others of note -- namely Charles Spurgeon, William Booth and George Muller. Ernest Sandeen writes, "Darby introduced... the ideas of a secret rapture of the church and of a parenthesis in prophetic fulfilment between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks of Daniel. These two concepts constituted the basic tenets of the system of theology since referred to as dispensationalism... Newton remembered, years later, opposing both positions. Commenting upon Darby’s interpretations of the seventy weeks of Daniel, Newton remarked, ‘The secret rapture was bad enough, but this was worse’" (The Roots of Fundamentalism, 1970, 38).

It was not long before these new views concerning the secret coming of the Messiah gained popularity in America. "The two stage coming view of the Brethren spread to America and other parts of the world in the latter part of the century. Darby visited the U.S. at least five times. His dispensationalism became part of the Scofield Reference Bible (1909)" (Macpherson, op.cit., 32).

Today this popular non-Scriptural idea, unknown to the original apostles, unknown to the Church for over 1900 years, unknown even to Our Lord Yeshua Himself, and which came out of the visions of an obscure peasant woman in 19th century Scotland, is accepted by countless millions as Gospel Truth.

It is as far from Gospel Truth as the idea that rabbits can lay eggs (although that is also accepted by countless millions of ignorant Christians and promulgated at Easter with equal fervour as the secret rapture).

It is beyond being highly suspect; it is a downright diabolical lie. It is time Christians returned to the plain teachings of the Lord Yeshua haMashiach and jettisoned fables by "old wives" and "silly women ladened with sins" (1 Tim 4:7; 2 Tim 3:6).
Dismas Zoathan

I've been there-done that so, follow me, I might be a little less lost than you. If not-tag, you're it!
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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
I refuse to go. I'm not leaving my family and friends.
 Quoting: SpectrumBlue


LOL, What makes you think you gotta place up there?
Anonymous Coward
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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
Every human soul will "carry the cross" so to speak.. We will all suffer just as The Christ did... No happy, fuzzy clouds to whisk us away... We're all here to learn and grow spiritually and we wont do that by NOT suffering... Sorry folks
Dismas

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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
A simplified version of why the Rapture Doctrine is a load of sour crap! Now even the most ignorant among you protestants, have no excuse for being stupid about The Rapture!

Dismas

How valid is the “Rapture” doctrine? Will it stand up in the Court of Heaven? Have “Rapture” enthusiasts been led astray?


Origin Of The Rapture Doctrine
Part 1

In 1997, in an issue of my publication The Reformer, I issued a challenge to anyone who could document any evidence that the “Rapture” dogma, as publicized today, was taught by any “church leader” or “church father” prior to 255 years ago. No one came forward. It is now 2007. I’m still waiting.
In my research, I discovered that in 1742-44 Morgan Edwards wrote a book on the modern-day “Rapture” doctrine. It was published in 1788. Thus began the contemporary “Rapture” melodrama.

Morgan became a Baptist leader of notoriety, confirming my conviction that the “Rapture” doctrine is largely a Baptist doctrine, not a doctrine of Jesus and his apostles. As far as my research implies, there’s no record prior to 1742 of the “Rapture” doctrine being taught or its details being published by anyone, not even by the “church fathers.” It strikes me rather odd that if the “Rapture” doctrine is a divine teaching, why did our “church fathers” fail to write about it? They wrote about all other major doctrines of the apostles. Why would they overlook a major topic as important as the “Rapture?”

It should be noted at this junction that the “Rapture” teaching has Jesus descending twice more, once to “rapture” saints and once to put an end to the so-called “Tribulation” and “Armageddon,” followed by a thousand-year earthly government. In this matter, the “Rapture” advocates select a few distinct, highly symbolic passages from the Book of Revelation, tie them in with the Thessalonian verses, and the screenplay is consummated.

It is wise to remember that nowhere in scripture is it taught, or remotely indicated, that Jesus will personally and visibly return twice more. His second advent is alluded to time after time, but never a third advent. Nor do the scriptures speak of saints ascending into heaven twice, once at the so-called “Rapture,” and once again “when the thousand years are over,” as the doctrine is advocated.


The “Rapture’s” Authenticity
Part 2

Before delving further into the “Rapture” doctrine and its biblical authenticity, I think it wise that we identify the doctrine’s composition, for I do not wish to misrepresent. Let’s begin with the term “rapture.”
1) “Rapture” is not found in any of our oldest Greek manuscripts. It has its origin in the Latin word “rapere,” which means to “take away,” “snatch out,” or “to seize.” We must not call “rapture” a biblical term for there is no Greek word that translates it.

2) The idea is that Jesus will suddenly appear in the air to snatch away from the earth and take to heaven all living saints, as well as the resurrected bodies of those believers who have died.

3) If you are on the roof of your house, or riding horseback, or in your car on a busy highway, or in bed with your spouse, you will be “snatched”or “caught up”—disappear all of a sudden. Your unregenerate friends and relatives will be amazed at your sudden disappearance. Cars will crash without drivers; planes will fall without pilots.

4) At the “Rapture,” Jesus “snatches up the church” only. But at “The Revelation,” when He is revealed once again, He will “return with the church” and bring an end to the “Tribulation” and “Armageddon.” A thousand-year earthly reign will then commence.

Does this sound like something you’ve never heard before? If yes, it is because you’ve never read it before—at least not in the scriptures. The scriptures used to support the “Rapture” are 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17, where Paul deals with the Lord’s return. Revelation, chapters 4-5, are supposed to capture the heavenly scene, and the 7-year “Tribulation” period, which follows the “snatching up,” is described in Revelation, chapters 4-19—or so allege the “Rapture” defenders.

Now read me carefully. If 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17 do not teach the “Rapture” creed, the entire core of the screenplay collapses. We agree that when Jesus returns, He will bring with him "those who have fallen asleep” (v.14). Furthermore, we concur that when He makes His second advent, He will “snatch up” those of us still living “to meet the Lord in the air” (v.17). It is agreed further that those of us still living will not precede or go ahead of those who have died (v.15). We will be caught up together with departed saints, after they have been resurrected from their paradise abode. These saints will accompany Jesus (“God will bring with Jesus,” v.14) as He gathers to Himself those who are still alive.

This is where the agreement ends. Our premillennial brethren have Jesus descending twice, once to “rapture” saints and once more when He returns with them to put an end to the “Tribulation” and “Armageddon,” followed by a thousand-year earthly government. In this matter, they select a few highly symbolic passages from the Book of Revelation, tie them in with the Thessalonian verses, and the “Rapture stage” is ready to perform. Nowhere in the Thessalonian verses is it remotely implied that Jesus will descend twice more. Please keep that idea in mind as we examine this dramatic creed. For if, as stated earlier, these verses fail to advance the “Rapture” doctrine, it falls by the wayside.


Ambassador Paul vs. The “Rapture” Viewpoint
Part 3

Let it be noted that if Paul in 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17 fails to bolster the “Rapture” doctrine, it falls by the wayside. Let’s examine the apostle’s remarks in detail. We’ll read them as they appear in the New International Version.

13. “Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15. According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, and are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”
1) Paul is speaking of one event, one occurrence, one happening—not two. It all happens in instantaneous succession.

2) A speedy return of the Lord apparently was on the minds of the Thessalonian saints, and they felt badly about those who had “fallen asleep” (died), thinking it a great loss that they were not alive to meet Jesus when He made His second advent (v.13).

3) When Jesus is personally revealed again, those saints who have died will be resurrected from their paradise abode and accompany Jesus as He gathers to Himself those who are still alive (v.14).

4) It would take a lot of theological distorting of verse 15 to make it mean something other than what Paul said. When Jesus makes His second personal advent, living saints will not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep, but “will be caught up together with them [departed saints] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.”

5) Jesus will return from heaven for the second time with an announcement everyone will be able to hear (v.16). The dead in Christ will be resurrected prior to meeting the Lord, and prior to living saints gathering to Him.

6) In verse 17, “after that” points directly to the same sequence of things, as mentioned in verse 16. In other words, living saints will be caught up with resurrected saints the moment those saints are raised. I repeat again: Only one advent is alluded to in these verses.

Nowhere in scripture does it speak of Jesus making two personal advents, following His ascension into heaven two-thousand years ago. Nor do they speak of saints ascending into heaven twice. Saints have been reigning with Jesus since He was “Exalted [enthroned] to the right hand of God” (Acts 2:33-35). He now sits on “David’s throne” (Acts 2:30) in heaven as King over God’s new nation or kingdom, the community of the saints. Jesus’ throne in heaven typifies David’s reignship over old Israel. David reigned as king over old Israel; Jesus now reigns as King over new Israel, the family of believers. The saints at Colosse had been “rescued from the dominion [kingdom] of darkness” and transferred “into the kingdom of the Son He loves” (Colossians 1:13).

As there can be no body without a head, or a kingdom without a king, we conclude that since the believers at Colosse were citizens of God’s kingdom, Jesus must have been their King! If He is now King, and He is, why in logic’s name would He surrender his superior kingship in heaven to return to earth to become King of an inferior kingdom during an alleged thousand-year earthly reign?


A Crushing Argument Against The “Rapture” Dogma
Part 4

One of the most crushing arguments against the modern-day “Rapture” doctrine is 1st Corinthians 15. Of the 58 verses contained in this chapter, 85 percent of them deal with the resurrection. Yet, in all of these verses, not once does Paul allude to Jesus descending twice more. Listen to verse 23:

“But each in his own turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes [referring to one advent], those who belong to him. Then the end will come.”
It might interest you to know that “will come” is not in the oldest Greek manuscripts. Literally, the verse reads, “Then the end.” End of what? End of time and tangible matter as we know them today. When that occurs, Jesus “hands over the kingdom [reign] to God the Father after he has destroyed all [earthly] dominion, authority, and power. For he must [now] reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet” (verses 24 & 25).

Our “Rapture” brethren say that Jesus will suddenly appear in the air to snatch away from the earth and take to heaven all living saints, as well as the resurrected bodies of those believers who have died. At the “Rapture,” Jesus “snatches up the church” only. But at “The Revelation,” when He is revealed once again, He will “return with the church”and bring an end to the “Tribulation” and “Armageddon.” A thousand-year earthly reign will then commence, as per the doctrine. Consequently, we have two future advents. It makes little difference whether Jesus’ feet will touch the earth during His first advent (“Rapture”). The fact is, there are two advents scheduled. The scriptures speak of only one.

If Jesus is to descend twice more, as our “Rapture” brethren claim, please tell me why Paul failed to communicate that fact when he wrote at length about the resurrection? He alludes to one advent (verse 23), not two. He had every opportunity to say something about a second advent. He is completely silent on the subject! You see, if the scriptures fail to teach that Jesus will descend twice more, the contemporary “Rapture” doctrine falls short of evidence. And when a doctrine falls short of evidence, it is most likely of man and not of God. The “Rapture” doctrine falls short of evidence. It simply ain’t there!

Jesus is now reigning over new Israel, the redeemed society. The new Israel was not meant to be earthly and external, as earthly kingdoms are, and her King was to reign in the hearts of His subjects, not from a throne constructed from earthly stones and materialistic hardware. Jesus states it far more exquisitely, “The kingdom [reign] of God does not come visibly, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom [reign] of God is within you” (Luke 17:20-21). Jesus reigns from His throne in heaven and in the hearts of His subjects, not in earthly Jerusalem at a future date. For then people would be able to say, “Here it is,” or “There it is.” And Jesus says this will not be the case!


A Spiritual Kingdom vs. The “Rapture”
Part 5

Up to this point, I have described in detail the “Rapture” theology, taking my information from those who advocate this teaching. I think it only fair that I allow you to hear from two of my readers who support the position I take. The first brother was, at one time, an ardent modern-day “Rapture” enthusiast. Apparently, he knows what he’s talking about. The second brother raises a point you won’t want to miss.

“I can come up with hundreds of internal contradictions they [‘Rapture’ brethren] have to explain away on the basis of logic, supposition, and just plain guesswork. The secret is to listen to what they have to say, then ask them to explain the details. If you let them talk long enough, they will only confuse themselves. You don’t really have to attack or refute them. They do it themselves. It’s even better when you get two or more of them in a room together, because you will never see any two agree completely on the details.
“How do I know this? I was raised in a ‘pre-tribulation’ and a ‘pre-millennial’ church. I used to argue these positions and made myself look like a fool. Needless to say, I no longer believe in a ‘pre-tribulation’ Rapture. But I certainly don’t believe in using it as a test of brotherhood, as so many do.”—Rick Presley.

“I think it is interesting, albeit sad, that I’ve heard so many ‘rapturists’ and ‘premillennialists’ on the one hand speak of the short-sighted Jews of the first century who could not see the spiritual reign of Jesus in His earthly appearance, yet turn around and are guilty of doing the same thing by speaking of an earthly kingdom and reign the Messiah will usher in! I see no distinction in their follies.”—Joel Cranford.

This brother makes an excellent point. I’d like to comment. The Jews in Jesus’ day failed to envision His reign as spiritual because they were looking for an earthly kingdom with all of the political trimmings that accompany earthly kingdoms. “Rapture” brethren are making the same mistake. They’re looking for a “glorified kingdom” with all of the “glorified trimmings” that accompany “glorified kingdoms.” In the meantime, they fail to understand that such a kingdom or reign has existed since the very moment Jesus was “exalted [enthroned] to the right hand of God” (Acts 2:33). His kingdom is not earthly, palpable, and tangible. It is spiritual in that its King reigns from heaven and in the hearts of His subjects.

Ahhhh, Those “Rapture” And Other “Prophets!”
Part 6

Are those “doomsday prophets” counterfeit? Some, yes; others, no. In past years, I have written extensively on disagreements among brethren, and I have taken, and still take, the position that teaching falsely does not necessarily make a believer a false prophet or teacher, as per the scriptures. I do not believe most of my brethren who hold to the thousand-year earthly reign, the “Rapture”doctrine, and other related topics, are false teachers in the biblical sense.
It is my understanding that, in scripture, “false teachers” are those who teach falsely, knowingly and deliberately. The term is never once applied to those who embrace and advocate wrong teaching honestly and sincerely. So at this point, we need to ask ourselves: Can we logically and rationally equate false teachers who are sincere with those brothers who seem to have some kind of “supernatural” insight into God’s timetable for the ages? This is where the bone rubs. Should we make a distinction between the two? I’m inclined to answer in the affirmative.

Hal Lindsey and Grant Jeffrey are a case at hand. As you recall, a few years ago they sensationalized the Y2K scenario. Tens of thousands of gullible believers fell head-long into their soul-stirring and thrilling rhetoric and purchased their tapes and books. These two “prophets” capitalized upon the occasion and “collected” hundreds of thousands of dollars from suckered believers.

During the period leading up to Y2K, their speaking engagements were numerous, and untold thousands paid out cash to warm pews while Hal Lindsey and Grant Jeffrey tickled their ears with the “drama of the ages,”only to discover at 12:05 a.m. on January 1, 2000 that none of their “prophecies” materialized. What a disappointment that must have been for those tens of thousands of duped believers who had been brainwashed by two “celebrated prophets.”

When a brother steps into God’s role by either predicting or prophesying future events that are in His hands only, he has, in my opinion, involved himself in affairs that belong only to Deity. He dare not do that! Lindsey and many others have “played around” with God’s timetable for decades and have gotten rich by fleecing God’s sheep. This is why I’m inclined to make a distinction between those brothers who are sincerely wrong in some of their interpretations of scripture and those who play around with God’s timetable. Many of the “Rapture” enthusiasts fall into the same pigeonhole—not all of them, of course, but some of them.

Buff Scott, Jr.
Author - Reformer - Columnist
5a
Dismas Zoathan

I've been there-done that so, follow me, I might be a little less lost than you. If not-tag, you're it!
King James

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05/15/2007 12:05 PM
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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
Fortunately for believers, the Rapture is a sound and Biblical doctrine.
Jeff
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05/15/2007 12:06 PM
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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
may God help those "left behind"
Anonymous Coward
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05/15/2007 12:17 PM
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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
Why do you want to be raptured away to heaven when Gods' kingdom is going to be set up here on earth?
King James

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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
God's kingdom is going to be setup here on Earth after the Tribulation. The Tribulation will be the worst time the world has ever seen. Nobody will want to be here. The Bible says that in those days, people will seek death and they will not find it.
Anonymous Coward
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05/15/2007 12:39 PM
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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
Why do you want to be raptured away to heaven when Gods' kingdom is going to be set up here on earth?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 236865



Nowhere does it say that Christ's Kingdom shall be upon this Earth.
King James

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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
Why do you want to be raptured away to heaven when Gods' kingdom is going to be set up here on earth?



Nowhere does it say that Christ's Kingdom shall be upon this Earth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 236924



That is true. We will rule and reign here for 1000 years after the Trib.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
God's kingdom is going to be setup here on Earth after the Tribulation. The Tribulation will be the worst time the world has ever seen. Nobody will want to be here. The Bible says that in those days, people will seek death and they will not find it.
 Quoting: King James

You know how that happens don't cha'? Medical Miracles abound, as those which bring the dead back to life! You've really got to go out of your way to leave on your own . . and lots are trying to get out now . .
Anonymous Coward
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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
rapture is really just half-price pancakes at IHOP - sorry to disappoint...unless you love pancakes, in that case may 17 will be a good day
LEGION, FOR THERE ARE MANY
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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
may God help those "left behind"
 Quoting: Jeff 236964

They had their chance, as when Jesus Christ walked among them.

They did not get it then and they do not get it now...hardness of heart, blind eye and a deaf ear........LEGION
Uuggerr

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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
Praise the Holy Of HolY: 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:--The dead in Christ arose after crusifiction-- Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,Luk 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Luk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. :::Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up, out of your graves, AND THE RAPTURE HAS TAKEN PLACE EVERYDAY SENSE!
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent the body, and to be present with the Lord.Praise the Holy of Holy:amen
SO you see the rapture takes place at death every day because Jesus was here!!
 Quoting: wing-ed



Am I the only one that notices alot of the bible thumpers take 1 verse from 1 book and start pasting them together to try and make a logical train of thought... but if I was to go take 1 sentance out of 12 differant chapters of 12 differant books and contruct a paragraph it would be out of context?

1Th 4:16
Mat 27:52
Luk 20:37
Luk 20:38
Eze 37:13
2Co 5:8
Anonymous Coward
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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
Yawn... nothing to see here folks. Sorry... the rapture bus isn't coming. You can all go back to work now.
wing-ed

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I refuse to go. I'm not leaving my family and friends.
 Quoting: SpectrumBlue

Praise the Holy Of Holy::Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. ::THESE ARE THE RAPTURED BEFORE TRIBULATION-THEN THESE ARE THE RAPTURED DURING TRIBULATION!! Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Praise the Lamb:amen SEE BLUE YOUR FAMILY IS WAITING FOR YOU!!
Holy, holy,holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.Praise the one who gives you peace beyond all understanding Yes that scripture still sounds good !
wing-ed

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Praise The Holy Of Holy ::Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. :: Praise the Lamb:: Amen
Holy, holy,holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.Praise the one who gives you peace beyond all understanding Yes that scripture still sounds good !
Anonymous Coward
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Why do you want to be raptured away to heaven when Gods' kingdom is going to be set up here on earth?



Nowhere does it say that Christ's Kingdom shall be upon this Earth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 236924


Revelation - I saw the holy city coming down out of heaven, New Jerusalem.
Anonymous Coward
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I could care less if the rapture is pre-tribulation, mid or post-tribulation. I just wish the rapture would come soon or the tribulation start soon.
Saxon
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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
"Rapture" = "The Hour of Darkness"

Lucifer/Jehovah/Yahweh (put your favorite king of darkness name here) will be showing up as "Jesus and the Saints".

Prepare your minds likewise.
magicfairy

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I dont know what you guys mean by the rapture, but I have JOY in my heart every day,,,,, that is here and now.....
so this is it!!!!!!
sandpiper
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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
Matthew 24:31 And HE will send out HIS angles with a loud trumpet call and they will gather HIS elect (saved) from the four winds of the Earth from one end of the universe to the other. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God has NOT appointed us to (incur HIS) wrath but that we might obtain salvation through our LORD JESUS CHRIST, the MESSIAH. You shall reign with God over the whole earth! The wrath of GOD is for the evil doers and unbelievers. Bless Ya!
sandpiper
User ID: 237002
United States
05/15/2007 01:49 PM
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Re: RAPTURE alert! May 17 2007
Matthew 24:31 And HE will send out HIS angles with a loud trumpet call and they will gather HIS elect (saved) from the four winds of the Earth from one end of the universe to the other. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God has NOT appointed us to (incur HIS) wrath but that we might obtain salvation through our LORD JESUS CHRIST, the MESSIAH. You shall reign with God over the whole earth! The wrath of GOD is for the evil doers and unbelievers. Bless Ya!

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