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I met Hitler in 1967

 
Angel_Eyes
Living, caring, loving, and trying to survive

User ID: 214668
United States
06/03/2007 05:12 PM

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Re: I met Hitler in 1967
Nym thank you so much for sharing this with us. It is very interesting. I can certainly understand you being in awe of him. I think all of us would have been. A really amazing story!

i am sorry to hear about your health. I hope you have gentle..loving..and peaceful days.
As proud children of science and reason, we have made ourselves the orphans of wisdom.....
Anonymous Coward
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06/03/2007 05:13 PM
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Re: I met Hitler in 1967
I met a guy at a nightclub in Philadelphia once who looked just like Albert Einstein. But that didn't make him Einstein.
 Quoting: monadnock


Late one night while I was getting gas at a gas station, I saw a guy that looked exactly like L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology.

I saw this guy 8 years after Hubbard had "died" in 1986. Since Hubbard was in a lot of trouble with the Government before his "death" it's possible he faked his demise and went underground.
Anonymous Coward
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06/03/2007 05:31 PM
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Re: I met Hitler in 1967
Hve you ever seen his encampment he built in Humboldt county near petrolia ca. He built a concrete bunker up there to hold all of the Hubbard Documents.
Truth Seeker
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06/03/2007 05:43 PM
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Dear OP... For some strange reason I believe you. I have always felt that Hitler made contingency plans for himself and his loved ones should the war threaten his personal safety. I know that TPTB made him a wonderful bogyman, although he was a madman, he was not the worst mad man and won't be the last. I kinda think he might have been a mind controlled victim for the Illuminati agenda to lead us into three major world wars.

Hitler could well have been just a normal human being after the war ... who knows.
Anonymous Coward
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06/03/2007 05:44 PM
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Nym is right; I was at the same party and actually saw Der Fuehrer talking to a young oil representative about cameras. I know realize that must've been Brother Nym his own bad self.

Nymster! Good to see you again!!
Nym (OP)
User ID: 246272
Germany
06/03/2007 05:45 PM
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Nym,

what was that dinner party like? What did you guys eat? who else was there? Who was the person that arranged and kind of guided the whole thing? Who was the "center person" of the pary and how was Hitler treated by everyone else?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 246296



It was actually very informal, and for much of the time, guests were on their feet, walking around the house and wandering around in the gardens. Hitler remained seated at all times in the main dining room, but not like some sort of king demanding hushed attention -- on the contrary, there were several conversations going on at the same time, with folks coming in and out and generally enjoying the ambience.

By the time I got there, the food was served up in the form of a buffet, with lots of delicious meat and fish delicacies. I never saw Hitler eat anything, and I think he was just drinking water.

The guy who took me there wasn't that much older than myself, although he had been there for much longer than I. He's still alive and living in Costa Rica, and I phone him each Christmas. We became good friends in South America and he showed me how to fit in with the local customs and get around the bureaucracy.

His background was product sales, which was not that different to mine. I was basically there to work on sponsorhip deals and social tie-ins, like helping to finance some local schools and talent scouting.

I don't know who was individually responsible for organizing the party, but I went to many like it in the years I was there. They were usually organized by one of the Senor Corellos -- the big landowners who dominate the ranching business down there. My company also instituted a lot of social occasions like that.

As I said, the center person was Hitler, but it was clear to me that most of the people there knew him well enough not to fuss over him. He was treated more like an honored guest who you could approach and talk to in a very relaxed, informal atmosphere, but he wasn't the focal point of the event.

The name of the man who introduced me to Hitler was Senior (Senor) Tejerina, and although I had never met the Senor before, he knew everything about me -- my birthplace, education and college background, company profile, etc! He spoke to Hitler in German and Spanish and Hitler replied in Spanish.

Then Hitler beckoned to me and I sat down next to him and he began talking to me in English. There were two other people listening to us (both diametrically across the table -- a very attractive Anglo woman and a Corello, quite wealthy looking -- and they were both smiling, and watching my reaction.)

I was so absolutely awed by the whole thing, I began to say such stupid things, such as "How are you, Sir?" and "You look so healthy" ... and even (you'll love this) ... "I've heard so much about you!" :-)

At one point I was calling him "Mr President"! :-) I really didn't know what to call him. I noticed that he was laughing gently, and I think he said "Presidente" to correct me with a little joke, so I just went back to using "Sir."

He spoke to me about my career choice and said it was a very wise decision. He asked me if I could speak Spanish (I could, but not very well) and he recommended that I should spend more time in the country and less in the cities. He asked me if I could ride a horse, and if I was much of a sportsman, and then he suggested I should speak to Senor [forgot the name] who coached people to play polo.

I said I wasn't really that athletic but enjoyed photography, and he said that my choice of hobby was a very fine one and he wished he could join me but was too old to learn new things, although he did say he considered himself to have been a competent amateur photographer in his spare time in Germany. He told me he had an old Leica which he never used and he would send it to me.

I told him I had a Pentax, which was very good, but I would really treasure his Leica, although I insisted it was too kind without payment. He dismissed my suggestion immediately and told me that it was a camera waiting for a young, talented owner and it was wasted on an old man who had no use for it.

Then I blabbed about mosquitos and told him I hoped he had a place with adequate mosquoito protection, and he laughed gently and said mosquitos didn't bother him, and the two people opposite also laughed, but kindly so. I began to relax more and I told him again that he looked very healthy and asked him if there was anything I could do for him.

Some more poeople came into the room and stood there smiling at us. The attractive lady said something in German and then there proceeded a conversation between her and Hitler, with the young man then commenting in Spanish. All three began laughing about something, but they weren't laughing at me .... I just think it was a "family" joke, although I don't think they wre related in any way, but just very close.

He turned to me and asked if I had eaten, and I said I hadn't. He said that I looked far too thin and needed to eat. A waiter came and served us drinks, but Hitler drank only water. He asked me about my education and I told him a little bit about my background. I noticed there were now more people in the room, but most of them were discussing things between themselves .... very relaxed ambience .... and Hitler asked me if I was planning to marry and raise a large family.

I told him that I had not yet met the girl of my dreams and he laughed and said it was sure to happen soon and that I would have a large family. The lady agreed and said, in English, that I was "handsome" and would have a lout of Senoritas running around after me. I said "No, that hasn't happened yet," and she said I was perhaps too shy. Hitler was laughing gently and was squeezing my shoulder and he said it was important to find a young lady to share my dreams with. Perhaps, he said, I should marry a lady interested in photography or a lady whose father owned the Pentax company. Then we all just laughed and when the waiter came, Hitler spoke to him and asked him to show me where to get some food.

I said much more, and we spoke again later before I left, but that's it in a nutshell!

Sorry for any typos. :-(
Ossie bloke
User ID: 244400
Australia
06/03/2007 05:49 PM
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Just when you thought the Iranian leadership could stoop no further: A top advisor to Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad claimed in an interview with Iranian website Baztab that Nazi leader Adolf Hitler's parents were both Jewish and that Hitler himself was one of the founders of the State of Israel.

n the interview, translated by MEMRI (Middle East Media Research Institute) Mohammad-Ali Ramin, a chief aide to Ahmadinejad, told Baztab that Hitler's paternal grandmother was a Jewish prostitute and his father even kept his Jewish name until finally changing it to Hitler when he was 40.

Ramin also claimed that the reason Hitler developed such an aversion to Judaism was because his Jewish mother was a promiscuous woman. Hitler therefore, says Ramin, tried to escape his religion.

Ramin cites a 1974 book by Hennecke Kardel titled 'Adolf Hitler: Founder of Israel', which alleges that Hitler strived to create a Jewish state as a result of being influenced by his Jewish relatives and his cooperation with Britain – which also wanted to drive the Jews out of Europe.
Nym (OP)
User ID: 246272
Germany
06/03/2007 06:35 PM
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Re: I met Hitler in 1967
Just an oldie on his way out with cancer making a small internet confession before the curtain drops. :-)



Sorry to hear that Nym. I care more about your cancer than I do Hitler.
 Quoting: Atma



Thanks, Atma and Angel Eyes. These things get us all sooner or later, but at least I've had a pretty good life.

I have three children and four grandchildren, all of whom are healthy and doing well.

I've seen much of the world -- believe me, we live on a very beautiful, unique planet. I'm optimistic because I have faith in young people and their ability to turn things around.

You will make me very happy if you promise to do just one thing: Never smoke. If you already do, then please stop.
Anonymous Coward
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06/03/2007 06:42 PM
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Re: I met Hitler in 1967
You didn't bother to ask him if he was the real Hitler nor how he escaped Germany at the end of the war?

That's the most amazing part of your "story".
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 136331
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06/03/2007 06:43 PM
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The Hitler photo was taken during a “reunion” at the Lake McDonald Lodge in Glacier National Park, Montana, on August 27, 1997. According to Skorzeny, Adolph Hitler was alive and well in the U.S. in 1997!

Skorzeny did not stop there. He produced a photo of a young Skorzeny, Mengele, Bormann, and the family of George H. Scherff, Sr.. Seated in the midst of those in the photo was a young George H. Scherff, Jr., who, Skorzeny explained, was trained as a spy and sent to America to work for Adolph Hitler. “He was given false identification and adopted by Prescott Sheldon Bush as his “son,” George Herbert Walker Bush,” Skorzeny went on. “He forged a birth certificate in order to enter the military before he turned 18. He was 16 at the time.”

[link to freedom4um.com]
 Quoting: Free Store 158594

I had no idea there was this much bullshit on Hitler available on the net.GHW Bush is clearly a Bush by blood.You'd have to be blind, or have some rare affliction that prevents recognizing family resemblances to think otherwise.
I guess now someone will come out with a revision to this crap, claiming he had extensive plastic surgery to look like a Bush.
Then someone will notice that Gjr also looks clearly like the rest of the family, and then...
.
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06/03/2007 06:48 PM
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I hope this is true. He was a great man. He deserved to live out his life with dignity. In the distant future, he will be revered as a god. just like Genghis Kahn.
Anonymous Coward
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06/03/2007 06:49 PM
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"Sorry for any typos. :-("
Where's your apology for the crapo? If your reaction to "meeting Hitler" was to act like a blushing schoolgirl, that's even sicker than making up this bullshit in the first place.
Should have wrung his neck.Having failed to do that, someone should wring yours.That would take care of that pesky cancer problem, wouldn't it?
Nym (OP)
User ID: 246272
Germany
06/03/2007 06:53 PM
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Dear OP... For some strange reason I believe you. I have always felt that Hitler made contingency plans for himself and his loved ones should the war threaten his personal safety. I know that TPTB made him a wonderful bogyman, although he was a madman, he was not the worst mad man and won't be the last. I kinda think he might have been a mind controlled victim for the Illuminati agenda to lead us into three major world wars.

Hitler could well have been just a normal human being after the war ... who knows.
 Quoting: Truth Seeker 170894



I asked my friend later if the attractive young woman was his daughter and he said that was not the case, but Hitler "adopted" people as part of his family. He said he had always remained faithful to Eva, who died in 1959, and never married again.

The sense that I picked up on was that Hitler was a very gentle person, not at all the "madman" you read about. I could not imagine this person ever harming a fly, let alone another human being.

Of course, I'm not defending him. If what he did is true, then we cannot forgive. But I just can't reconcile the historical view with the man I met that evening so many years ago. I came away with the feeling that he he cared for me and I felt absolute love for this frail old man with such a lovely, gentle laugh.

Funny, but I've oftened dreamed of Hitler, having a conversation with him -- a conversation I really would have loved to have had if I hadn't been so nervous and awed. I wish I had spent more time with him to find out more about his life and his opinions.

One thing is for sure -- we live in an amazing world full of mystery, where everywhere ain't what it seems!

I came to this forum last week and started reading some of the topics being debated. Most of us probably understand less than 1% of what is really happening in the world out there.

In my younger days, we all used to discuss the Kennedy assassination endlessly, knowing, of course, that the whole thing was one big CIA coverup. But still, the truth is yet to be made officially known.

Maybe when I'm on the other side, and that'll be soon, I'll come back here and tell you how things look from another dimension! :-)
Anonymous Coward
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06/03/2007 06:56 PM
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why is this shit pinned?
tachik0ma
User ID: 246205
Spain
06/03/2007 06:58 PM
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Re: I met Hitler in 1967
[link to www15.ocn.ne.jp]
Nym (OP)
User ID: 246272
Germany
06/03/2007 07:03 PM
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You didn't bother to ask him if he was the real Hitler nor how he escaped Germany at the end of the war?

That's the most amazing part of your "story".
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 241465



I'd heard all the rumors about Hitler in South America before I even met him, but I didn't believe them. Still, I guessed they prepped me for what I immediately accepted to be the truth of the situation. Suddenly, the rumors made sense.

I believe the man who committed suicide in Berlin was Hitler's double. They made a flm of "Hitler" inspecting the last very young German army recruits before the fall of Berlin, and I think that was proved to be Hitler's double.

If a friend of yours took you to an upscale party in Little Rock and you met Bill Clinton, would you ask him if he was the real Clinton and, if so, did he lie about having sex with Monica?
HL Shancken

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06/03/2007 07:08 PM
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Re: I met Hitler in 1967
Sinister Implications

by Mark Riebling

How J. Edgar Hoover and Lyndon Johnson thwarted Angleton's conspiracy probe.

A chill mist came off Lake Geneva on the evening of January 23, 1964, exactly eight weeks after the assassination of President Kennedy. A CIA officer hung back in the shadows across from Cinema ABC at 42 Rue Rhone, watching people buy tickets in the strong pool of light under the marquee for Doctor Strangelove. An electrified trolley rattled past, blocking for a moment his view, but then he saw his man. Casually and at the same moment, they walked toward each other. Amidst the jostle of entering and exiting patrons, a matchbook changed hands invisibly.

The KGB man was a full block away before he opened it and read the ballpoint: 20 Chemin Francois Lemann. After an hour of taxis and buses for countersurveillance, me met the CIA man at the safehouse.

They drank. The KGB officer got drunk. He offered "to come over."

An escape was plotted. On February 4, the KGB man failed to turn up for lunch with the rest of the Soviet delegation in the dining room of the Palais de Nations. Most of the Soviets were flying that night to Moscow, so no one had noticed when removed his things from the hotel on Avenue Wendt. By noon he was in the back seat of a sedan with tinted glass and diplomatic plates, disguised as an American Army officer, smoking American cigarettes, wending through the teeth of the Alps toward Germany.

The KGB defector's debriefing would soon assume an awesome significance, for he was America's only source of information on Lee Harvey Oswald's "lost years" in the USSR. Both FBI and CIA agreed that this man could answer the riddle of a possible Soviet role in President Kennedy's death; the fight would come over whether he spoke the truth.



-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------

From its inception, the official U.S. government investigation into JFK's death put politics, or policy, at a premium to fact. Obvious delinquencies and cover ups would later lead conspiracy theorists to suspect government complicity in the assassination, but in fact what were covered up were indications of a communist role. On November 23, Helms' assistant, Thomas Karamessines, was put in a state of near panic upon hearing that Mexican authorities were about to arrest and interrogate Silvia Duran, a Cuban consular official who had met with Oswald and, it later developed, had sex with him several times during his visit. As Karamessines later said, "CIA feared that the Cubans were responsible for the assassination, and that Duran might reveal this during an interrogation." That, in turn, might lead to an international crisis that could literally literally mean the end of the world. Faced with the absolute ultimate in "situation ethics," Karamessines sent a flash cable to Mexico Station: "Arrest of Silvia Duran is extremely serious matter.... Request you insure that her arrest is kept absolutely secret, that no information from her is published or leaked, that all such info is cabled to us." When the U.S. Ambassador to Mexico, Thomas Mann, questioned Duran's insistence that her only contact with Oswald had been to process his visa request, Helms cabled Mexico Station Chief David Atlee Phillips, warning that the Ambassador must not go public with his fears. "There is distinct feeling here," Helms wrote, "that Ambassador is pushing this case too hard... and that we could well create flap with Cubans which could have serious repercussions."

The FBI, too, acted to obscure any communist connection. Within hours of the President's death, two key Kostikov-related documents -- the October 18 cable from CIA, and a Hunter report indicating that Oswald had mentioned Kostikov in a 9 November note to the Soviet Embassy -- were removed from the Dallas Office by order of Assistant Director William C. Sullivan. The cover-up continued throughout 1964; when Special Agent James Hosty was called to testify before the Warren Commission, he found that FBI files which he had intended to cite about the Kostikov connection were missing. Without those documents, he could not testify about their contents. When he returned from the hearings, the Kostikov documents had mysteriously appeared back in his file with a note attached: "Removed from Hosty's in-box on November 22." "The withholding of that [Kostikov] information from the public was thus complete," Clarence Kelly wrote after viewing the FBI assassination files, "all because the White House seemingly considered the risk of a confrontation with the Soviet Union over the Kennedy assassination was too great."

Its was just such a desire to avoid world war, in fact, which caused creation of the Warren Commission. After DCI McCone briefed Robert Kennedy and new President Lyndon Johnson about CIA's anti-Castro plots on November 24, both Kennedy and Johnson were haunted by suspicions that JFK had been killed in retaliation for attempts on Castro's life. The next day, worried that evidence of Soviet-Cuban complicity "could lead us into a war that could cost forty million lives," Johnson directed that "speculation about Oswald's motivation should be cut off, and we should have some basis for rebutting the thought that this was a Communist conspiracy." Thus arose, on November 29, an official commission of inquiry under Chief Justice Earl Warren. "The President told me how serious the situation was," Warren recalled. "He said there had been wild rumors, and that there was the international situation to think of.... if the public became aroused against Castro and Khruschev there might be war." Commission members were soon confronted by the same conspiracy conundrum: "If we find out it was the Russians," one commission lawyer wondered aloud during a staff meeting, "will it mean World War III?"

Even if Warren's commission had wanted to find a communist role, however, staff lawyers quickly realized that CIA, and especially the FBI, were unlikely to provide them with evidence that would lead down that avenue. The Bureau had already come under fire for failing to protect JFK, and if it were to be shown that Hoover had failed to detect and thwart a foreign conspiracy, the FBI Director might well lose his job. Commission members knew that Hoover would do whatever it took to shield the FBI from criticism; early on, the staff learned that the FBI had hidden the fact that agent James Hosty's name was in Oswald's address book (Marina had written it there after Hosty visited her house, a few weeks before the assassination, to ask about Oswald). Hoover's duplicity on that matter, and more sociological factors, soon led to a subtle bias at the Commission toward Agency and against the Bureau; commission lawyers admired their sophisticated CIA contacts, many from the same Ivy League schools they had attended, whereas the FBI men, by contrast, seemed plodding. CIA analysts did not dissuade Commission members of that opinion; CIA analysts felt that the FBI had been derelict in its handling of Oswald before Kennedy's assassination, and, in fact, Hoover would secretly discipline seventeen agents for mistakes in handling Oswald.

The Bureau, meanwhile, was not entirely happy with the cooperation it was getting from CIA. After November 23, when the Agency told the FBI that Kostikov was "an identified KGB officer" associated with the group "responsible for sabotage and assassination," the Agency was under great pressure to explain why it hadn't earlier warned the FBI that Oswald might be "dangerous," as CIA's Mexico City station had feared. "We do not participate in the actual work of protecting the president or planning his trips within the U.S.A," one CIA report stated weakly, by way of rationalization. The Bureau's bitterness only deepened, moreover, as it shared post-assassination leads with CIA, but felt it got little in return. For instance, on November 23, according to Bureau documents, the FBI briefed a "Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency" on matters relating to the assassination. Although he denied it, there would later be speculation that "George Bush" was the future President, who was at the time managing a Texas-based offshore oil firm; that position might have put him in contact with George DeMohrenschildt, a Texas-based, Russian-emigre petroleum engineer who specialized in scouting offshore sites; DeMohrenschildt, a Russian emgire investigated by the FBI for alleged communist affiliations, had been Oswald's closest Dallas contact before the assassination. But even as the FBI shared its information with CIA's George Bush, whoever he was, yet another Agency failure to warn the FBI of imminent danger was about to permanently obstruct any probe into a possible conspiracy.

Within twenty-four hours of the President's death, CIA analysts prepared a memorandum covering the facts they knew at the time. As James Johnston, staff lawyer for a later Congressional reinvestigation of the Dallas tragedy, described the memo's contents: "They [CIA] knew that Oswald had once defected to the Soviet Union. They knew that he made a trip to Mexico City two months before the assassination and talked to Soviet Vice Consul Kostikov about a visa. And they believed that Kostikov was a KGB assassination and sabotage expert. From this, their memorandum argued, there was reason enough to believe that Oswald was part of a foreign plot. If this were true, CIA analysts predicted, then Oswald himself might be killed before he could talk." The gist of the memorandum, according to Johnston, was to be passed through CIA liaison to the FBI -- with the warning that Oswald could be in danger. "Unfortunately, relations between the two agencies were strained, and liaison was awkward," Johnston lamented. Oswald, while in police custody, was killed by Dallas nightclub owner Jack Ruby on November 24, before the FBI received the message.

A fearful symmetry soon attached itself to Ruby's role, for on November 26, CIA received a report that "an American gangster type named Ruby" had visited Cuba in August-September 1959 and visited Santos Trafficante, who was then in his luxurious "confinement" at the hands of Castro. CIA also recorded allegations that Ruby had "interests" in Trafficante's "Florida and Havana gambling houses, and was active in arranging illegal flights from Miami to the Castro organization in Cuba during that period." Furthermore, Ruby was connected to at least three Dallas residents considered by the FBI to be "associates" of Trafficante, including one Jack Todd, whose telephone number was found in Ruby's car after the murder of Oswald. All of which suggested that if the Traffcicante-Castro nexus had been used to kill the President, as Rosselli suspected, it might also have manipulated Ruby into silencing the suspected trigger man. At the time, however, Ruby insisted that he had acted alone, out of a simple desire to avenge the President's murder; after several years in jail he reversed himself and said he had been part of a conspiracy, but would only speak of it if brought to Washington under heavy security. Those conditions were refused, and in 1967 he died in jail, apparently of a heart attack, without fleshing out his allegations.

Meanwhile, on the day that Ruby's alleged links to Trafficante were reported to Langley, President Johnson told McCone that the FBI would have the lead responsibility for investigating JFK's death; CIA was only to assist. Perhaps the decision reflected anger over CIA's failure to warn the FBI about Oswald's safety; perhaps, too, since the FBI did not share the CIA's suspicions about a communist conspiracy, Johnson was signalling that he wanted the FBI view to prevail. CIA, by some accounts, initially welcomed playing second fiddle, because it wanted its own efforts to be as independent as possible, but within a day of Johnson's decision, the FBI's expanded duties seemed to be having just the reverse effect. CIA's Mexico City station refused to cooperate with a Bureau team that tried to wrest away its list of informants, and on November 27 FBI legat Clark Anderson cabled headquarters to complain that, according to the CIA people in Mexico City, only the Agency had "jurisdiction in getting investigative results abroad." An FBI supervisor was sent down from Washington that very day to try to clear up the dispute. CIA station chief David Phillips reluctantly agreed to let the Bureau run the show, but it was not long before a special Warren Commission delegation had to travel to Mexico City to handle problems of interagency coordination, especially in the area of possible Cuban involvement.

One difficulty was that the FBI, being a domestic law-enforcement agency, did not have enough foreign contacts to conduct a meaningful investigation. For instance, after a Mexican woman and her daughter claimed to have seen Oswald with two other gringos at a party at the Cuban Embassy, the FBI interviewed her twice, but having no way to confirm or deny the story, simply left it alone. Nor did the Bureau conduct any follow-up investigation to determine the identity of a "mystery passenger" who had reportedly departed Mexico City for Havana aboard a Cubana Airlines jet, at 11 p.m. on November 22. The FBI similarly failed to follow up on information received by CIA Headquarters from its Mexico Station on December 3, 1963 about the suspicious activities of Gilberto Lopez, a Cuban-American who left the U.S. for Cuba the day after the assassination. Lopez's itinerary was confirmed by several sources, including one who reported hearing, according to a March 20, 1964 memo to the Director of CIA from Mexico station, "that Gilberto Lopez, U.S. citizen, was involved in President Kennedy's assassination." The Lopez case was passed to the FBI, but as a later CIA memo tersely recorded, "FBI furnished no further info on subject." Grilled years later by a Senate Committee, the FBI agents handling the Oswald investigation could never account for their failure to pursue the Lopez lead.

Interagency liaison did improve after Angleton's CI Staff took over CIA's assassination investigation in early 1964. The move ordered was by Helms, he later said, because the CI Staff "had through the years the responsibility for carrying on liaison with the FBI, [and] was in a better position and used to dealing with the Bureau." That was the official reason for the shift; unofficially, Helms wanted to remove the Agency's Soviet Division, which Angleton believed was penetrated by the KGB, from any direct role in investigating possible KGB complicity in the President's death. In most areas, Angleton had little difficulty coordinating with the Bureau; shortly after assuming control of CIA's inquiry, for example, he contacted FBI Assistant Director Sullivan and said that "it would be well for both McCone and Hoover to be aware that the Commission might ask the same questions wondering whether they would get different replies from the heads of the two agencies." The CI chief therefore suggested that the heads of the two organizations rehearse their answers so as not to tell conflicting stories. Examples of possible questions and how they should be answered: "(1) Q. Was Oswald ever an agent of the CIA? A. No. (2) Q. Does the CIA have any credible evidence showing that a conspiracy existed to assassinate President Kennedy? A. No."

Despite good relations with FBI liaison officer Sam Papich, however, Angleton was unable to reconcile the institutional mindsets. Told by Angleton staffer Birch O'Neal on November 27 that Kostikov's KGB role was known "on the basis of an analysis," Papich pressed: "Do you have anything more specific which would pinpoint him as being a member of that department?" O'Neal admitted the case was wholly deductive, but agreed to prepare a statement for Hoover, laying out the case. "Keep it right down, very brief and very simple," Papich reminded. O'Neal conferred with a CIA colleague, probably someone in Raymond Rocca's CI research section, who indicated his "firm belief" that Kostikov was a KGB assassinations specialist and agreed to outline CIA analysis of the point. But it was to be four years before the FBI finally accepted, on the basis of other, non-analytical CIA reporting, that Kostikov was a KGB assassinations man, and that suspension of belief allowed the Bureau considerably more freedom to assure a suspicious public that Oswald had been a lone loony. That conclusion, reached officially by the FBI on December 9, 1963, had in fact colored the Bureau's investigation from the start. As Mexico City Legat Anderson later said, he proceeded at all times under the "impression," conveyed to him by Bureau headquarters, that Oswald was the sole assassin and not part of any conspiracy. He therefore "tried to stress," to the skeptical Ambassador and to his CIA contacts, "that every bit of information that we had developed in Washington, at Dallas, and elsewhere, indicated that this was a lone job." Even though "Solo," an FBI informant in the Cuban Embassy, reported after the assassination that Oswald had offered to kill Kennedy, the idea of a communist conspiracy to kill JFK was simply not a live hypothesis at the Bureau. Neither the KGB nor its Cuban offshoot, the highly professional DGI, would have hired an unstable loser like Oswald, the FBI's reasoning ran; nor would Castro or Khruschev risk U.S. discovery and retaliation, such as an invasion of Cuba, or even world war, merely to replace a liberal like Kennedy with the more conservative Lyndon Johnson. Nor would speculation about a communist role serve either the country or the Bureau well, and so William Sullivan leaked, on what he later said were Hoover's orders, the news that "An exhaustive FBI report now nearly ready for the White House will indicate that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone and unaided assassin of President Kennedy."

That story, which ran nationally on December 13, 1963, caused a direct clash between Hoover and McCone. After the Bureau's ability to conduct an "exhaustive" inquiry in three weeks was questioned by columnist Drew Pearson, Hoover suspected that McCone was leaking anti-Bureau information. According to a heavily redacted December 1963 FBI memo, "Relations with the CIA," which later turned up in the FBI's file on Pearson, Hoover was upset because "Information developed by Mr. DeLoach has indicated that John McCone, Director, CIA, has attacked the Bureau in a vicious and underhanded manner characterized with sheer dishonesty." There should be a "firm and forthright confrontation" with the CIA Director, the FBI memo urged, to discourage any such future "attack against the Bureau." Hoover jotted, "OK." Papich went to McCone and told him, diplomatically but directly, of the FBI Director's concerns. On December 16, McCone telephoned Hoover to appease him. "I know the importance the President places on this investigation you are making," McCone said. "He [the President] asked me personally whether CIA was giving you full support. I said we were, but I just wanted to be sure that you felt so." Hoover was soothed when McCone agreed the main responsibility for the investigation fell on the Bureau, and if the Bureau said there was no foreign plot, CIA would play along -- especially since that was the answer the White House wanted publicized.

While the public record was being censored, however, Angleton was considering more carefully, and secretly, the specter of a possible KGB plot. After an all-nighter at FBI headquarters, Papich had driven to Langley and was in Angleton's office by 10:30 am on November 23, where the CI Chief apprised him of certain "sinister implications." Angleton was bothered by Golitsyn's ominous 1961 warning about KGB General Rodin plotting the death of a "Western political leader," by the mystery of Oswald's travels in the USSR, and unresolved questions about Kostikov and the Mexico City aspect of the case. Angleton's critics would later excoriate him for entertaining what would seem paranoid theories, but it was his job as CI chief to consider every possibility. "In my conversations with Jim, he never excluded that maybe we were missing something on Soviet involvement," Papich recalled. "He and I had a lot of discussions on that. As far was we knew, Oswald acted alone. But Jim felt that we couldn't be sure until we had the full story on Oswald's possible links to the KGB. That meant getting the full story on his stay in Russia."

It also meant a fight with the FBI over whether that story could be believed, once it was obtained from a new Soviet defector -- a man who said he could resolve, finally, all questions about whether Oswald had been acting as a KGB agent when he killed President Kennedy.



-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------

On February 4, 1964, Yuri Nosenko was met at Geneva's ABC Cinema by Pete Bagley, the CIA officer who had debriefed him two years earlier. Bagley still believed that Nosenko was a provocation, sent in part to discredit Golitsyn. But with Angleton's blessing, Bagley was to continue playing along, to see what the Soviets' game might be. Trouble began, though, as they sat down in the safehouse.

"I'm not going home," Nosenko said.

Bagley was stunned. In 1962, Nosenko had made a big point of saying he would never defect, because he loved his family and country too much.

"Why do you want to defect?" Bagley asked. "Didn't you tell us you never would?"

Nosenko could offer only a vague answer. "Well, I think the KGB may suspect me. I have decided to make a new life."

"How about your family?"

The Soviet changed the subject to Lee Harvey Oswald. He could speak definitively about the Soviet government's relations with the alleged assassin, Nosenko said, because he had personally overseen Oswald's KGB file. Nosenko insisted, according to a Top Secret CIA summary, that "the KGB was frightened of Oswald" and would "absolutely not" have attempted to recruit him. "The thrust of [Nosenko's] account was that neither Oswald nor his wife had at any time been of any interest whatsoever to Soviet authorities, that there had not ever been thought given to recruiting either of them as agents and that, in fact, the Soviets were glad to get rid of them both."

Yuri Nosenko's Oswald story was a red flag to Richard Helms, who as DDP would recommend to McCone whether to accept a Soviet "walk in." Helms knew that Angleton and Bagley doubted the man's bona fides, but no corners were to be cut in the case -- especially since, if Nosenko were bogus, this might mean, as Helms later said, "that Oswald was acting as a Soviet agent when he shot President Kennedy." And so Nosenko had been invited to come over.

The defector had not gone beyond a U.S. Army base in Frankfurt before Bagley's boss, Soviet Division chief David Murphy, expressed renewed certainty that Nosenko was "a plant." Bagley agreed, and together they told Angleton their doubts about Nosenko's Oswald story. Although they could not irrefutably disprove it, because it did not contradict any data in CIA files, Nosenko's mere ability to tell the tale rested on a tripod of incredibles. Of the thousands of KGB officers throughout the world, CIA had secret relations with only one, after Golitsyn, yet he just happened to have participated directly in the Oswald case -- not only once, but on three separate occasions: (1) When Oswald came to Russia in 1959; (2) when Oswald applied for a visa to return to Russia in 1963; and (3) when the Kremlin leadership caused a definitive review of the whole KGB file on Oswald after the assassination. That Nosenko was thus in a perfect position to testify to KGB innocence in JFK's death seemed to Bagley a result of neatly such aligned coincidence that one had to suspect deliberate planning. Nor did Bagley or Murphy believe Nosenko's claim that the KGB would not have at least talked to Oswald. The KGB, as a matter of procedure, didn't ignore foreigners, period, and certainly not a U.S. Marine like Oswald, who had worked at an operational base for CIA's U-2 spyplanes in Atsugi, Japan. Previous KGB defector Pyotr Deriabin told Murphy that the KGB "would be like a pool of piranhas [on such] an American swimming into their sea."

But why would Nosenko, or the KGB, lie about Oswald's Soviet links? Was it because they had conspired to kill the President? If so, and if the KGB had indeed dispatched Nosenko to cover up the plot, how could they have tailored his Oswald story so neatly as to contradict nothing in CIA files? Was it because they had a secret helper inside CIA?

To Bagley, the implications were ugly. There were going to be doors he didn't want to open, corridors he wouldn't want to look down. But the case was there; it would not go away. The burden had fallen on him, and he would do his duty.

[link to www.markriebling.com]
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Anonymous Coward
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06/03/2007 07:09 PM
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Re: I met Hitler in 1967
Sorry about your health.Blessings to you and your family. Oddly: I believe you too!
Anonymous Coward
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06/03/2007 07:12 PM
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Re: I met Hitler in 1967
Sorry about your health.Blessings to you and your family. Oddly: I believe you too!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 224590

What a bunch of sick f-cks you all are.No wonder the OP is cancerous.Cancer is a disease of the soul.Keep it up, you will all be joining him.
Anonymous Coward
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06/03/2007 07:15 PM
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Re: I met Hitler in 1967
OP why didn't you report this and bring him to justice?
Nym (OP)
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06/03/2007 07:16 PM
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Re: I met Hitler in 1967
Sorry about your health.Blessings to you and your family. Oddly: I believe you too!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 224590



Thanks, my friend. I guess everyone has strange experiences and your time for one of those moments will come too.

Please make the most of your life, love the people you're with, and enjoy good health.
Nym (OP)
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Germany
06/03/2007 07:24 PM
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Re: I met Hitler in 1967
OP why didn't you report this and bring him to justice?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 146370


The thought never occured to me and I would never have done such a thing. Looking back on the event now, I'm sure they checked me out beforehand to determine what I would do -- and they read my character correctly. It's not in my nature.

However, it's absolutely certain that Hitler was safe and the authorities knew where he was. It seems a deal was done somewhere down the line to let the old man live out his life in peace. Why? Don't ask me. Your guess is as good as mine.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 239537
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06/03/2007 07:25 PM
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Re: I met Hitler in 1967
How did you know for sure it was the real Adolph Hitler?



Good question. He could have been a look-a-like and I have no way of proving that this was the real Hitler.

However, why would anyone go to so much trouble to scam a party of oil execs and local Paraguayan dinitaries and government types (the "Corellos")?

My friend and I dined on the experience for years and we both laughed it over whenever one of us said, "You know, we should tell someone." I did in fact tell my wife, whom I married in 1973, and she just fell about laughing, so I never went that route again.

I've read a lot of stuff about the "Hitler in South America" angle, and I do know that he had look-a-likes in case the Mossad came looking for him. One of the guys I used to know down there, who later worked for the Shell oil company, told me that the Israelis knew and were quite happy to let Hitler live out his last years in peace. Some kind of deal was struck in Washington, so they say. No idea why.
 Quoting: Nym 246272

What a fascinating work of fiction, Nym! I applaud your sincerity though.

Next up...some whackjob is going to dream up a story on how wonderful Stalin, Lenin, Mussolini, and the rest of humanities butcher's were also "good" guy's after they "retired" from the biz and granted asylum courtesy of the matrix.

As for the smoking, good advice. However, YOU should have stopped that nasty habit decades ago. We've all got to go sometime. In your case I hope you go quickly and do not suffer for too long. I've had friends and family die of smoking related cancers.

Unfortunately, their deaths did NOT come quickly, and the pain became so severe that the pain medications no longer had any effect. :(
tachik0ma
User ID: 246205
Spain
06/03/2007 07:38 PM
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Re: I met Hitler in 1967
Hitler did his job and then retired, like many others, human global consciousness forget them as soon as they are no longer under the spotlight and keep quiet.
Nym (OP)
User ID: 246272
Germany
06/03/2007 07:40 PM
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Re: I met Hitler in 1967
How did you know for sure it was the real Adolph Hitler?



Good question. He could have been a look-a-like and I have no way of proving that this was the real Hitler.

However, why would anyone go to so much trouble to scam a party of oil execs and local Paraguayan dinitaries and government types (the "Corellos")?

My friend and I dined on the experience for years and we both laughed it over whenever one of us said, "You know, we should tell someone." I did in fact tell my wife, whom I married in 1973, and she just fell about laughing, so I never went that route again.

I've read a lot of stuff about the "Hitler in South America" angle, and I do know that he had look-a-likes in case the Mossad came looking for him. One of the guys I used to know down there, who later worked for the Shell oil company, told me that the Israelis knew and were quite happy to let Hitler live out his last years in peace. Some kind of deal was struck in Washington, so they say. No idea why.

What a fascinating work of fiction, Nym! I applaud your sincerity though.

Next up...some whackjob is going to dream up a story on how wonderful Stalin, Lenin, Mussolini, and the rest of humanities butcher's were also "good" guy's after they "retired" from the biz and granted asylum courtesy of the matrix.

As for the smoking, good advice. However, YOU should have stopped that nasty habit decades ago. We've all got to go sometime. In your case I hope you go quickly and do not suffer for too long. I've had friends and family die of smoking related cancers.

Unfortunately, their deaths did NOT come quickly, and the pain became so severe that the pain medications no longer had any effect. :(
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 239537



Not fiction, my friend, but thanks for the well-wishes.

My doc knows the score and when the time comes, he'll up the dose so that I just "go to sleep" and don't wake up. You have to tell 'em "off the record" beforehand to make it all "sort of" legal, even though it's not .... if you know what I mean.
wcsmithiii
User ID: 246351
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06/03/2007 07:45 PM
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Re: I met Hitler in 1967
I met a guy that looked and sounded just like John Denver,,,,put it wasn't....
wcsmithiii
User ID: 246351
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06/03/2007 07:45 PM
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Re: I met Hitler in 1967
I met a guy that looked and sounded just like John Denver,,,,put it wasn't....
UltraLord
User ID: 246342
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06/03/2007 07:49 PM
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Re: I met Hitler in 1967
Strange/weird to think about the old saying about everyone having body doubles somewhere on this planet.Also yrs ago as a young lad I had a stamp collection with many used stamps with Hitlers pic on them.Sold my collection when I got in high school.cheap.kicking myself in the ass now.
freddie
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06/03/2007 07:58 PM
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Good Luck Nym. Sorry about your health. I believe your story.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 246357
United States
06/03/2007 08:00 PM
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Re: I met Hitler in 1967
For the OP. Through the looking glass we all go.

Peace [link to www.phoenixarchives.com]

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