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I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?

 
LukeAtMyDik
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I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
Are u that dumb?
Wait no need for a raply.

The word "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12 presents a minor problem to mainstream Christianity. It becomes a much larger problem to Bible literalists, and becomes a huge obstacle for the claims of Mormonism. John J. Robinson in A Pilgrim's Path, pp. 47-48 explains:

"Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell?

The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."

Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King").

The scholars authorized by ... King James I to translate the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated ... largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and --- ironically --- the Prince of Darkness.

So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

And so there are those who do not read beyond the King James version of the Bible, who say 'Lucifer is Satan: so says the Word of God'...."

Henry Neufeld (a Christian who comments on Biblical sticky issues) went on to say,
"this passage is often related to Satan, and a similar thought is expressed in Luke 10:18 by Jesus, that was not its first meaning. It's primary meaning is given in Isaiah 14:4 which says that when Israel is restored they will "take up this taunt against the king of Babylon . . ." Verse 12 is a part of this taunt song. This passage refers first to the fall of that earthly king...
How does the confusion in translating this verse arise? The Hebrew of this passage reads: "heleyl, ben shachar" which can be literally translated "shining one, son of dawn." This phrase means, again literally, the planet Venus when it appears as a morning star. In the Septuagint, a 3rd century BC translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek, it is translated as "heosphoros" which also means Venus as a morning star.

How did the translation "lucifer" arise? This word comes from Jerome's Latin Vulgate. Was Jerome in error? Not at all. In Latin at the time, "lucifer" actually meant Venus as a morning star. Isaiah is using this metaphor for a bright light, though not the greatest light to illustrate the apparent power of the Babylonian king which then faded."

Therefore, Lucifer wasn't equated with Satan until after Jerome. Jerome wasn't in error. Later Christians (and Mormons) were in equating "Lucifer" with "Satan".
So why is this a problem to Christians? Christians now generally believe that Satan (or the Devil or Lucifer who they equate with Satan) is a being who has always existed (or who was created at or near the "beginning"). Therefore, they also think that the 'prophets' of the Old Testament believed in this creature. The Isaiah scripture is used as proof (and has been used as such for hundreds of years now). As Elaine Pagels explains though, the concept of Satan has evolved over the years and the early Bible writers didn't believe in or teach such a doctrine.

The irony for those who believe that "Lucifer" refers to Satan is that the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer') is used to refer to Jesus, in 2 Peter 1:19, where the Greek text has exactly the same term: 'phos-phoros' 'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for Jesus in Revelation 22:16.

So why is Lucifer a far bigger problem to Mormons? Mormons claim that an ancient record (the Book of Mormon) was written beginning in about 600 BC, and the author in 600 BC supposedly copied Isaiah in Isaiah's original words. When Joseph Smith pretended to translate the supposed 'ancient record', he included the Lucifer verse in the Book of Mormon. Obviously he wasn't copying what Isaiah actually wrote. He was copying the King James Version of the Bible. Another book of LDS scripture, the Doctrine & Covenants, furthers this problem in 76:26 when it affirms the false Christian doctrine that "Lucifer" means Satan. This incorrect doctrine also spread into a third set of Mormon scriptures, the Pearl of Great Price, which describes a war in heaven based, in part, on Joseph Smith's incorrect interpretation of the word "Lucifer" which only appears in Isaiah.
LKXXON
Lucian Ilea

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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
Thank you fro spreading the light
Lucifer
In Arvena Neo et in Arcadia Ego
I am an Atlantean living in Atlantis when it flew again :)
ZAL Moxe
LukeAtMyDik (OP)

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07/13/2007 05:05 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
Thank you fro spreading the light
Lucifer
 Quoting: Lucian Ilea


Yur welcome and thank you for not knowing how to spell fro
lol
LKXXON
Gradient

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07/13/2007 05:10 PM

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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
Thank you fro spreading the light
Lucifer


Yur welcome and thank you for not knowing how to spell fro
lol
 Quoting: LukeAtMyDik



Wait no need for a raply.
 Quoting: LukeAtMyDik





and thank you for not knowing how to spell "raply" lol
:coexistt:


glptrainer(at)yahoo.com
mathetes

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07/13/2007 05:11 PM

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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
Thank you fro spreading the light
Lucifer


Yur welcome and thank you for not knowing how to spell fro
lol





Wait no need for a raply.




and thank you for not knowing how to spell "raply" lol
 Quoting: Gradient

LOL
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2007 05:20 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
Ha, ha. I've wondered the same thing myself. I've read differing opinions. There was a Pope Lucifer, according to "Anacalypsis". Could his name have been substituted for Venus, the lightbringer?

Anu was the highest deity in Babylonian history and Venus was the worshipped deity, Ishtar.
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2007 05:29 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
In the Vulgate, an early-5th-century translation of the Bible into Latin by Jerome, Lucifer ("light-bearer") occurs in Isaiah 14:12-14 as a translation of the Septuagint Greek word heosphoros ("dawn-bearer"), an epithet of Venus. The original Hebrew text of this verse was הילל בן שחר (heilel ben-shachar), meaning "Helel (bright one) son of Shachar (dawn)". Helel, the morning star, was a Babylonian / Canaanite god who was the son of another Babylonian / Canaanite god Shahar, god of the dawn. Isaiah 14:12 is translated "How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning!" in the American Standard Version translating Hebrew Helel as "day-star" and the Hebrew word ben as "son" and the Hebrew word shahar as "morning." The 21st Century King James translates it as "Lucifer, son of the morning".

In Isaiah, this title is specifically used, in a prophetic vision, to allude to the king of Babylon's pride and to illustrate his eventual fate by referencing mythological accounts of the planet Venus.

So, Lucifer was actually a symbol for a bright, shining star that fell from a lofty height.

Is the christ consciousness coming with Venus?
LS

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07/13/2007 05:39 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
OP, you screen name is hilarious!
Tomek
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07/13/2007 05:47 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
Thank you fro spreading the light

Lucifer

 Quoting: Lucian Ilea



I catched you


do you remeber :)
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2007 05:52 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
Lucifer is Satan's name before he was casted to earth, before the fall.
Lucifer="morning star", Satan = Adversary.

Satan is not in Hell, Satan is here on Earth. He is going to hell later....
Anonymous Coward
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
Some people think that Satan lives in hell, but hell is where Satan and the wicked will be sent at the last judgment. Satan now dwells on earth (Job 1:7). At the Second Coming of Christ, he will be bound for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). After the thousand years, he will be set free for a short time and will go out to deceive the nations (Revelation 20:7-9). The devil’s final end will be in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10), which was prepared by God for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2007 05:57 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
WHO IS HE?

He has many aliases . . .

Liar
Angel of light
Imitator
The tempter
The evil one
Prince of demons
Satan = The adversary
The devil = The slanderer
Belial = The wicked one
Beelzebub = Lord of flies
Apollyon & Abaddon = Destroyer
The great dragon
That ancient serpent
Prince of the power of the air Thief
Murderer
Roaring lion
The adversary
The father of lies
Prince of darkness
Prince of this world
The god of this age
The angel of the Abyss
The oppressor of the saints
The sower of discord
The enemy of all good
The spirit that works in the children of disobedience
Tomek
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07/13/2007 06:00 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
Satan is opposer

yes or not ?
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2007 06:00 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
hey Luke, leave my dick alone.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
THE POWER OF SATAN OVER THOSE OUTSIDE OF CHRIST . . .

Satan has the whole world of unbelievers under his control (Matthew 4:8-10; John 14:30; 1 John 5:19).

Unbelievers belong to him (1 John 3:8,12) and are his children (1 John 3:10).

Satan has the power of influence and blinding. He blinds the minds of the unbelieving (2 Corinthians 4:4). He prevents the gospel from entering their hearts (Matthew 13:19; Luke 8:11). Satan speaks through fortunetellers (Acts 16:16), cult leaders (1 Timothy 4:1-2), and false preachers (2 Corinthians 11: 13-15). He seeks to deceive about his existence, his purposes, his activities, and his coming defeat. He is the deceiver of the whole world (Revelation 12:8). His ultimate deception will be in the anti-christ (2 Thessalonians 2:9).

Satan can control a person’s body. Demons can cause muteness (Luke 11:14), mental disorder (John 10:20), violent action (Luke 8:26-29), and crippling (Luke 13:11,16). In these examples Satan caused people to be handicapped although there was nothing physically wrong with them.

Satan influences governments and nations. Daniel 10:12-13,20-21 gives us a glimpse into the spiritual realm of angels and demons and how they affect nations. The "prince of the Persian kingdom" (v.13) is apparently a demon exercising influence over the Persian realm in the interests of Satan. The archangel of God named Michael finally overcame his resistance. Likewise the "prince of Greece" in verse 20 is also a demon.
Tomek
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
Satan is opposer

yes or not ?
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2007 06:12 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
Yes Tomek, Opposer = Adversary = Satan
Tomek
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07/13/2007 06:17 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
so we have now to ways .

if the man is oppose to God what God said mean He ignore what God siad is He Satan or not ?

because how we saw Satan didnt ignored was not opposed when Lord comand him to leave the man .
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2007 06:21 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
so we have now to ways .

if the man is oppose to God what God said mean He ignore what God siad is He Satan or not ?

because how we saw Satan didnt ignored was not opposed when Lord comand him to leave the man .
 Quoting: Tomek 189887


No, Man was deceived by Satan in the garden of eden, we DISOBEYED God, But we didn't try to overthrow Him like Lucifer Did, That's why he was casted down to earth and now is trying to get as many people he can with him to hell
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2007 06:28 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
Lucifer = knowledge.

Which the church suppresses with glee, from the flat earth to the idiotic idea that the earth and man were formed in 7 days.

religion = pure evil

Lucifer = enlightenment

by making people scared of the knowledge that the truth of Venus represents, those that know the truth are able to separate the idiots from those that deserve power, and come to acquire it.

Venus was the first planet/movement early sea farer's such as the Phoenicians learned to understand moved and changed positions in the night sky and this discovery led to the first age of enlightenment, the Greek philosophy, alchemy and hermetic texts.

ask yourself one question - why, beyond coincidence, would the church specifically choose the pentagram to symbolize everything evil, when the pentagram is the only and perfect mathematical shape in the world - a self-perpetuating and infinite matrix of pentagrams that will perpetuate into infinity in over 5 points - 5 dimensions, for all time and infinity?

when you finally understand that Satan serves g-ds plan just as all things do, you come to see that Satan is not the devil, but the bringer of truth and light, and that he frees your mind, and uses the church to control those that are truly dangerous.

this game has been played for a long time, and it serves a specific purpose - when the time comes and evolution takes the next step forward, only those that have not strayed from the true g-d will be able to take the next step forward.
Tomek
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
and now is trying to get as many people he can with him to hell
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 160826


see I have a problem

some peoples ignoring that to reject the devil acts from me and reject devil spirit marriage was given to me by Lord .

I understand that it is not you who finaly ignoring this .

tell me what to do ?
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2007 06:33 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
and now is trying to get as many people he can with him to hell


see I have a problem

some peoples ignoring that to reject the devil acts from me and reject devil spirit marriage was given to me by Lord .

I understand that it is not you who finaly ignoring this .

tell me what to do ?
 Quoting: Tomek 189887


you have Free will my friend, it's your choice. Satan don't respect free will, once you are under his power he'll try really hard to keep you down. Only God can help you
Tomek
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07/13/2007 06:38 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
what it is free will mean for you ?
Tomek
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07/13/2007 06:48 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
it is I dont care ?
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2007 07:18 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
Free will means you have the RESPONSABILITY of making your choices, with freedom comes responsability. You can't use the " the devil made me do it" argument, He is going to tempt you, but you are the one who decides
MuadDib987
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07/13/2007 08:47 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
Here's a related article. I haven't read it all, so lemme know how it turns out.

[link to www.logon.org]
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2007 08:55 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
OP, you forgot to post the link to the original article. Are you trying to pass this article off as one that you wrote?

[link to www.lds-mormon.com]
LukeAtMyDik (OP)

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07/13/2007 08:56 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
Lucifer = knowledge.

Which the church suppresses with glee, from the flat earth to the idiotic idea that the earth and man were formed in 7 days.

religion = pure evil

Lucifer = enlightenment

by making people scared of the knowledge that the truth of Venus represents, those that know the truth are able to separate the idiots from those that deserve power, and come to acquire it.

Venus was the first planet/movement early sea farer's such as the Phoenicians learned to understand moved and changed positions in the night sky and this discovery led to the first age of enlightenment, the Greek philosophy, alchemy and hermetic texts.

ask yourself one question - why, beyond coincidence, would the church specifically choose the pentagram to symbolize everything evil, when the pentagram is the only and perfect mathematical shape in the world - a self-perpetuating and infinite matrix of pentagrams that will perpetuate into infinity in over 5 points - 5 dimensions, for all time and infinity?

when you finally understand that Satan serves g-ds plan just as all things do, you come to see that Satan is not the devil, but the bringer of truth and light, and that he frees your mind, and uses the church to control those that are truly dangerous.

this game has been played for a long time, and it serves a specific purpose - when the time comes and evolution takes the next step forward, only those that have not strayed from the true g-d will be able to take the next step forward.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 187006

LKXXON
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2007 11:04 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
Lucifer = knowledge.

Which the church suppresses with glee, from the flat earth to the idiotic idea that the earth and man were formed in 7 days.

religion = pure evil

Lucifer = enlightenment

by making people scared of the knowledge that the truth of Venus represents, those that know the truth are able to separate the idiots from those that deserve power, and come to acquire it.

Venus was the first planet/movement early sea farer's such as the Phoenicians learned to understand moved and changed positions in the night sky and this discovery led to the first age of enlightenment, the Greek philosophy, alchemy and hermetic texts.

ask yourself one question - why, beyond coincidence, would the church specifically choose the pentagram to symbolize everything evil, when the pentagram is the only and perfect mathematical shape in the world - a self-perpetuating and infinite matrix of pentagrams that will perpetuate into infinity in over 5 points - 5 dimensions, for all time and infinity?

when you finally understand that Satan serves g-ds plan just as all things do, you come to see that Satan is not the devil, but the bringer of truth and light, and that he frees your mind, and uses the church to control those that are truly dangerous.

this game has been played for a long time, and it serves a specific purpose - when the time comes and evolution takes the next step forward, only those that have not strayed from the true g-d will be able to take the next step forward.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 187006


If you knew Christ's message, you would know that the various "Christian" churches have NEVER served him - they have served willingly and purposely served Lucifer.
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2007 11:12 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
I have to say it. If people insist on calling Lucifer the evil one, even though the name means lightbringer, why don't people see that we are the fallen angels? There are literally thousands of anti-christs walking around and these people believe their religion is sufficient. If we were spiritually evolved, we wouldn't be in 3-D and there would not have been a fall. I'm just sorry that people believe they have so little power and have yet to realize that it's their thoughts and feelings that determine how they exist. I think the E.T.'s are probably saying, "Damn, wake up already!"
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2007 11:15 PM
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Re: I C SO MANY HERE SAYING LUCIFER IS SATAN-WTF IS WRONG W/U PEOPLE?
The truth is, it's our ego, the false self that each created that is not the real you. The real you is pure love.