| | Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it
| Emperor Kenton
User ID: 255028
8/2/2007 10:43 AM
Report abusive post | Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it
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Subject: Minnesota Bridge Collapse
Date: 8/1/2007 5:23:49 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time
Looks like the jackhammer, used in the repairing , that was ongoing, produced a Tesla earthquake machine type resonance, with the structure, and it collapsed into the Mississippi.
Reminiscent of the earth-trembling "quake" that brought police and ambulances rushing to the scene of Tesla's Houston Street laboratory while an experiment was in progress with one of his mechanical oscillators.
[link to www.tfcbooks.com]
Keep in mind the wind blowing at s key frequency could and probably did bring down a bridge.
NOTE: Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapsing: The wind-induced collapse occurred on November 7, 1940 11:00AM,
[link to en.wikipedia.org]
due partially to a physical phenomenon known as mechanical resonance.
[link to en.wikipedia.org]
[Why am I now thinking of two immense building in NYC that once looked like a tuning fork?] |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 276269
8/2/2007 10:44 AM | | Re: Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it | Quote |
Emperor right again! |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 276157
8/2/2007 10:47 AM | | Re: Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it | Quote |
Pin this! |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 32062
8/2/2007 11:00 AM | | Re: Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it | Quote |
Were the Mythbusters anywhere near that bridge before the collapse? |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 80655
8/2/2007 11:02 AM | | Re: Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it | Quote |
If so, probabely the Yakuza. |
| spacie
User ID: 276288
8/2/2007 11:34 AM | | Re: Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it | Quote |
yes yes !! |
| rparnell
User ID: 277422
8/4/2007 1:42 PM | | Re: Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it | Quote |
Thanks for these links as I have been trying to find out more about mechanical resonance/jackhammer effects on bridge collapse, etc, and my google search lead to your post. I also think your theory is right on. Here is my experience of it (copied from a recent email to my friend): "Yeah, the bridge tragedy has been incredible. Fortunately, neither of us, nor anyone to whom we are close, was involved. I bicycle under it daily to work along the river, including that morning, but take a different route on my return in the evening. The freaky thing, personally, was that I had a premonition about it just a few days earlier. I was biking under it on Saturday to meet a friend for breakfast and they were doing construction on the surface; the jackhammer noise was really loud with lots of vibration, so I was nervous and looking up at the bolted seam where they were working to make sure nothing would break loose and fall on me. As I passed beyond the point of personal anxiety/danger, I then experienced a heavier, darker feeling and a thought jumped into my head: "This jackhammering could destabilize the whole bridge and cause it to collapse." I looked to my right down the structural steel span across the river, and briefly imagined that happening (though, it wasn't a vision). I then remembered a video I had seen many years ago that explained mechanical resonance in which they collapsed a structure with a tiny oscillator set at a certain frequency. I didn't give it any more thought after that, until I got home Weds night and Brenda told me about the collapse (she was upset that I wasn't answering my cell phone, but it was on and I didn't have any missed calls...the TV scroll later said that the cell phone network was down). The next day I did a Google search to see if there was any history of jackhammers associated with bridge collapses, and it took me to a link of the current Mpls collapse and an eyewitness account stating that a driver had heard/seen jackhammers and felt their vibration right before the collapse. Yesterday I learned that the initial evaluation was placing the beginning of the collapse at the very seam that I was looking up at on Saturday morning. Brenda and I were down by the river for a concert on Thursday night, and viewed the wreckage, and watched the search effort. It's been very sad. We live about a mile and a half away so constantly hear the helicopters. The bridge is now lying on the bike path, so it will be a long time before I can bike that way again. |
| Emperor Kenton
User ID: 278607
8/9/2007 2:02 PM | | Re: Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it | Quote |
A bit after the fact but I've posted Notes and Trails here:
[link to www.cyberspaceorbit.com]
We started hearing about quake weapons tech back in 1996
Report: Not So Surprising Nuke-Earthquake News [Report of Russian on-demand earthquake Weapons]
[link to www.coastalpost.com]
Thereafter an enduring series of quakes happened at China Lake which begged the hunch that our lads might be testing something.
[link to www.cyberspaceorbit.com]
[link to www.cyberspaceorbit.com]
I sleuthed around for opinions and got this:
BLACK OPS INSIDER [China Lake Quakes: I'll call a friend and check it out...thanks for the update...p.s. there are some RF weapons being tested out there...pretty nasty and unpredictable. . .we air tested them but were restricted from testing below 25,000 ft. due to unknown consequences...the air tests cause topical damage in higher terrain.". We did carry large power systems on the C130's...a mile long antenna stretched out the rear of the aircraft... a rhythmic wave which can cause havoc to anything it hits, problem was we don't have directional control from the air."
[link to www.cyberspaceorbit.com]
Then the Quake Meisters [Russia, US, Japan] went public with:
ISTC Project 1545 MHD Induced Seismicity
Full Title: Induced Seismicity Due to Electromagnetic Impact Caused by MHD Generator
Project Summary
The objective of this Project is to determine physical nature of the induced seismicity under electromagnetic impact caused by the MHD generator and to develop a technology of the controlled electromagnetic impact (EMI) on the Earth crust aimed at the seismic hazard reduction.
[link to www.cyberspaceorbit.com]
Now currently regarding the Bridge look over here: Possibility that Augsburg College has a MHD Generator and the effects usually show up two days after the Generator is pulsed.
[link to www.godlikeproductions.com] |
| scribble
User ID: 5199
8/11/2007 2:33 PM | | Re: Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it | Quote |
First of all, if a Tesla resonance effect collapsed the bridge, then I doubt there would be very many cars on it at the time of impact, given the massive vibrations that would have been produced for quite some time prior to the bridge actually collapsing.
Secondly, to create this effect requires a device much more precise (and likely oscillating at a lower frequency) than a jackhammer. Not only that, but simply tapping the ground would not be enough to cause the effect. Tesla's machine was attached to the structure itself, and the vibrations were caused by a tiny weight that was moving back and forth on the machine.
Third, there is no solid evidence that the Tesla "earthquake" story ever actually happened.
I suggest you find and watch the episode of Mythbusters where they experimented with bridges and Tesla devices. I have no doubt in my mind that such a device COULD collapse a bridge, but the difficulty, precision, and time required would completely rule out any chance of a jackhammer producing the same effect.
Also, did you ever see the video of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge before it collapsed? That thing was an engineering disaster. Did you read any of the information above the part about the collapse? The decision to use inadequate girders to strengthen the base of the road surface actually allowed the entire bridge to flex and move even in mild winds. It wasn't a matter of if the bridge would collapse, but when. And I've never seen or heard of any bridge so uniquely flawed in it's design, so any comparisons of this bridge to the Tacoma Narrows, other than the basic fact that there might have been a design flaw, is not at all relevant. |
| scribble
User ID: 5199
8/11/2007 2:45 PM | | Re: Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it | Quote |
Another thing, you say that "wind blowing at a key frequency could and probably did bring down a bridge." But wind doesn't "blow at a frequency." It comes in gusts, sure, but these are random and never occurring in any such pattern to even remotely resemble an actual frequency.
What brought the bridge down was the frequency of the oscillations of the ROAD SURFACE which was CAUSED by wind, not the frequency of the wind itself. It goes back to the construction of the bridge. This "wind brought the bridge down" scenario is entirely dependent upon the bridge itself having such a massive design flaw that the road surface would be allowed to raise and lower several feet due solely to relatively minor gusts of wind. I don't know of any bridge built since the Tacoma Narrows that suffers from such a flaw.
Wind certainly does play a huge role in engineering, no doubt about that, due to the great stresses and loads it can create on any kind of structure. But as I said before, comparing modern bridges to the Tacoma Narrows Bridge is irrelevant. |
| scribble
User ID: 5199
8/11/2007 2:56 PM | | Re: Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it | Quote |
One last word. It IS possible that the bridge was suffering from some kind of pre-existing problem, such as an eroded or corroded support or connection at some vital load-bearing spot, and the operation of a nearby jackhammer was enough to cause the bridge to collapse. But this situation is not the Tesla resonance effect, this is just stressing a pre-existing flaw.
This is similar to the way many things naturally work. For instance, corrosion of a material occurs much more rapidly if there is a pre-existing flaw, such as a crack, in the material. If the bridge did have some sort of weak joint, and the jackhammer helped this point to fail, it's inaccurate and silly to place the blame on the jackhammer; had the weak spot not been there, the jackhammer would have been unable to cause the bridge to fall.
Let's not scare people into fearing jackhammers on bridges because we're misunderstanding the application of Tesla's ideas. Tesla's effect would likely be able to topple a bridge, building, or any kind of structure that is completely structurally sound, no pre-existing flaw required. It's important to understand the conditions under how it works, and why it doesn't apply to this particular situation. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 243937
8/11/2007 3:13 PM | | Anonymous Coward
User ID: 280879
8/11/2007 3:41 PM | | Re: Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it | Quote |
I-35W Bridge 1 week prior to collapse [link to www.92kqrs.com]
the bridge is in excellent shape! |
| scribble
User ID: 5199
8/11/2007 11:02 PM | | Re: Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it | Quote |
Right, the bridge is in excellent shape because you've got a few wide shots of it that don't show any major damage, and naturally, you're qualified to assess the structural integrity of bridges through limited photos.
The type of flaw I was talking about is likely either a design flaw, which isn't something you can possibly spot from a visual inspection, or a very specific, very critical flaw that is concentrated in one spot, something that could likely be overlooked and certainly wouldn't show up on pictures like these.
The mere fact that you're assessing the integrity of the bridge off a few little photos shows that you have no idea the kind of detail that is required with regards to quality inspections.
By the way, I'm an inspector myself. I don't inspect bridges, but I do have an appreciation for the process of how quality control inspections are carried out. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 21159
8/11/2007 11:52 PM | | Re: Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it | Quote |
The corner of the bridge that move to the side 50' give or take is where the failure was, by that corner failing it pulled the bridge and that caused the rest of the bridge to come down, it would of taken an angled cut/failure for that corner to move as far as it did, for a Tesla affect the whole bridge would of been moving to the freq. of the bridge and would of gave lots of notice to the people on the bridge... IMO... |
| Emperor Kenton
User ID: 278607
8/12/2007 12:06 AM | | Re: Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it | Quote |
Another thing, you say that "wind blowing at a key frequency could and probably did bring down a bridge." But wind doesn't "blow at a frequency." It comes in gusts, sure, but these are random and never occurring in any such pattern to even remotely resemble an actual frequency. Quoting: scribble 5199
NOVA:
[link to www.pbs.org]
1940, the Tacoma Narrows Bridge
The failure came as a severe shock to the engineering community. Why did a great span, more than half a mile in length and weighing tens of thousands of tons, spring to life in a relatively light wind? And how did slow, steady, and comparatively harmless motions suddenly become transformed into a catastrophic force? To answer these questions engineers began applying the science of aerodynamics to bridge designs. Technical experts still disagree on the exact cause of the bridge's destruction, but most agree the collapse had something to do with a complex phenomenon called resonance: the same force that can cause a soprano's voice to shatter a glass.
Today, wind tunnel testing of bridge designs is mandatory. |
| midnight oil
User ID: 279107
8/12/2007 12:10 AM
 | | Re: Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it | Quote |
i'll vote 5..
Science is but a perversion of itself unless it has as its ultimate goal the betterment of humanity - Tesla
Miracles happen, not in opposition to Nature, but in opposition to what we know of Nature.
-St. Augustine |
| scribble
User ID: 105726
8/12/2007 1:00 PM | | Re: Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it | Quote |
I'm not saying the jackhammer or some more nefarious means didn't cause the bridge to collapse. I'm saying that, for a fact, the jackhammer could not have caused a Tesla effect and that a Tesla effect is not what brought the bridge down.
In other words, there's no logical reason to be fearful of jackhammers bringing down bridges, because if the bridge is in proper condition, then it can't happen. Of course, if we allow our bridges to deteriorate to an unsafe level, a jackhammer in the right spot COULD become a threat, but the problem isn't the jackhammer, the problem is the condition of the bridge. Even without the jackhammer, a deteriorated bridge will collapse eventually, it just may take more time. |
| scribble
User ID: 105726
8/12/2007 1:10 PM | | Re: Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it | Quote |
Quoting: Emperor Kenton 278607
It's great that you post links with sources and everything, but the facts have nothing to do with what you're saying. You quoted me, and posted random facts that had nothing to do with the part of my post that you quoted. You're just spitting facts out that may or may not be related to each other, which is why your first post is entirely incorrect. Taken separately, the facts generally stand (other than that unsubstantiated story about Tesla causing havoc and reports of earthquakes... the only documentation of that story is from words Tesla wrote himself), but it's almost as if you're assuming that, because they are grouped together, they are related.
I already acknowledged that wind plays a huge factor in engineering. I acknowledged the huge loads wind can cause. What you seem to not be understanding is that I was pointing out the wind loads that caused the Tacoma Narrows Bridge to collapse WEREN'T huge, they were moderate, and a properly designed bridge of the time would have withstood those loads. The Tacoma Narrows bridge had a unique design flaw, so it doesn't really apply to other bridges. They learned from their mistakes and haven't built another "Galloping Gertie" since.
At this point, I thoroughly feel like I'm beating my head against the wall, as I'm just repeating things I've already said before. |
| scribble
User ID: 105726
8/12/2007 1:22 PM | | Re: Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it | Quote |
Why did a great span, more than half a mile in length and weighing tens of thousands of tons, spring to life in a relatively light wind?
...
Today, wind tunnel testing of bridge designs is mandatory. Quoting: Emperor Kenton 278607
I'm going to spell it out for you as clearly as I possibly can.
Those engineers that were scratching their heads were doing so, AS STATED IN THE ABOVE QUOTE, because the wind loads were fairly light. Not because strong wind brought the bridge down. That is because wind did not directly cause the bridge collapse. The resonance effect, as you stated, caused the bridge to collapse. Obviously, if you prevent the bridge from flexing the way the Tacoma Narrows Bridge did, like every bridge ever built since, then you eliminate the possibility of another bridge failing due to resonant fluctuations caused by light wind conditions.
So to sum it up: You claim that wind could have possibly brought the bridge down, and cite the Tacoma Narrows Bridge as an example. But I'm saying that your example, which you repeatedly cite, does not apply since it suffered from a unique design flaw that no other bridge since suffers from. The fact that wind testing is mandatory should also make you realize that if anything, wind should be one of the last concerns for a bridge. You simply aren't moving logically from one step to the other. You're taking facts and using them to move backwards to a predetermined conclusion. |
| Tess Lah
User ID: 115
8/12/2007 1:30 PM | | Re: Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it | Quote |
I think a jackhammer frequency would be way to fast. Someone else said thay personally experienced two cement trucks with rotating loads that caused a bridge to start vibrating so much that he was worried. Since they were working on the bridge at the time I would suspect something like this more than a little jackhammer. Jackhammers are used all the time and never cause a problem like this. I think the tesla jackhammer probably had some sort of feedback loop so that it was continually hitting the object at exactly the right time.
. |
| Normal Is Subjective
User ID: 281407
8/12/2007 1:46 PM
 | | Re: Minnesota Bridge Collapse, the Tesla jackhammer did it | Quote |
Imagine what's not talked about in public:
U.S. Defence Secretary Cohen expresses concern about eco-terrorism using scalar electro-magnetic weapons.
"Others are engaging even in an eco-type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves... So there are plenty of ingenious minds out there that are at work finding ways in which they can wreak terror upon other nations... It's real,and that's the reason why we have to intensify our efforts."
Quoted from DoD News Briefing, Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen, Q&A at the Con-ference on Terrorism, Weapons of Mass Destruction, and U.S. Strategy, University of Georgia, Athens, Apr. 28, 1997. [link to www.iamishisname.com]
I thought I'd beat the inevitibility of death to death just a little bit. |
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