| | | Page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144 | APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!??
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 289861
10/13/2007 6:07 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
So I should sail away from my desired target?
Im no sailor, Quoting: Anonymous Coward 311736
Obviously. Your ignorance on navigation is showing. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 311736
10/13/2007 6:07 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
Barls , the Apollo nuts already said stars cannot be seen in space.
Then you link to NASA.
There are no stars in space!
Astronuts cannot see them!
They can only see the sun/studio lighting, or earth.
NO STARS!
I'm not Barls. I don't know who these "Apollo nuts" you talk about are, and what their line of reasoning is. I don't even know if they said that; all I have is your word on them saying that. Source please. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 289861
You may read the past 15 pages of this thread. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 311736
10/13/2007 6:09 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
So I should sail away from my desired target?
Im no sailor,
Obviously. Your ignorance on navigation is showing. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 289861
Ok,
So to reach my destination, I should sail in the complete opposite direction?
Good to know.
I am learning much about navigation. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 289861
10/13/2007 6:16 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
Seeing as you like to twist my words (I never, NEVER said in order to reach one's destination one should sail away from it), I'm seriously wondering whether it's worth to read the other 15 pages to find out who said there are no stars in space. Are you able to just say "it's in this post"?
The burden of proof is on you, by the way. It's your job to prove your claim that "Apollo nuts" have said there are no stars in space, not mine.
Are you seriously not understanding, or not willing to understand? You seriously need to ask a sailor why you don't approach a pier from windward. |
| nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 311906
10/13/2007 6:20 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
Add "reaching," "close-hauled," "beating" and "luffing" into your search terms. And also learn why you don't approach a pier from windward! (Not unless you want to buy a new boat).
So I should sail away from my desired target?
Im no sailor, but I will take that into consideration if I am sailing.
Sail away from my desired target.
Ok. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 311736
Are you being intentionally obtuse?
You sail with regard to the wind, the right of way, visibility, bearings, and navigational hazards.
Tell me...if you need to drive across town, do you point your wheels at your destination and hit the gas? No? Is it possible the straight-line path is blocked by inconvenient buildings, trees, pedestrians, and the like?
Even in clear water, good visibility, no hazards, you are at the mercy of the wind. If you want to sail downwind, then go right ahead (but don't run with too much sail out; that road leads to disaster!) If you want to sail into the wind, you are going to have to learn to tack. And that means sailing back and forth, in big zig-zags, and never actually pointing at your destination.
Why do we go on with this analogy, when the point seems to have been long-ago missed?
Because in traveling through the solar system there are similar constraints. The biggest being gravity. It costs power -- fuel -- to fight gravity.
The dumb way to go to the Moon is to point the nose of your spacecraft at it and start blasting.
It isn't actually necessary to achieve escape velocity. You don't need to leave Earth orbit at all. After all, the Moon is in Earth orbit itself. What you want to do, is take up an orbit that is high enough up that you intersect the Moon's orbit. Then a very small additional amount of fuel changes you from being mostly in orbit around the Earth, to mostly around the Moon.
As a consequence -- and, again, I am simplifying drastically (and I hope not fatally) -- most of your thrust is applied at a right angle to a line drawn between Earth and Moon.
You know, there are computer games out there that let you play with this stuff. Nothing beats getting a little direct experimenting in to help you understand the geometry of the situation. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 311736
10/13/2007 6:23 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
"The burden of proof is on you, by the way. It's your job to prove your claim that "Apollo nuts" have said there are no stars in space, not mine."
Oh contraire.
I have no burden of proof, as I am not claiming I have accomplished anything.
Nor do I claim the government accomplished anything, now or in 1969.
I claim nothing, so no burden of proof.
I do doubt that sea travel is the same as space travel.
Not that I have done either.
I do know that the astronuts said that stars are not visible in space.
But you have to look that up if you want to confirm it.
I certainly encourage your research, it is a fascinating topic. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 289861
10/13/2007 6:26 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
I do know that the astronuts said that stars are not visible in space.
But you have to look that up if you want to confirm it. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 311736
It certainly is. I know astronauts used stars to nagivate to the moon. That's quite contradictive with what you know. I provided a source for what I know; therefore, what I know is more reliable than what you know.
YOU claim people say stars are not visible in space. YOU are the one who needs to show that people say that. You, and nobody else. You can't ask for someone else to dig up what you claim. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 311736
10/13/2007 6:30 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
I do know that the astronuts said that stars are not visible in space.
But you have to look that up if you want to confirm it.
It certainly is. I know astronauts used stars to nagivate to the moon. That's quite contradictive with what you know. I provided a source for what I know; therefore, what I know is more reliable than what you know.
YOU claim people say stars are not visible in space. YOU are the one who needs to show that people say that. You, and nobody else. You can't ask for someone else to dig up what you claim. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 289861
I have no need of anything.
What you dig up up, is up to you.
The Apollo guys all claim that stars were either non existent or very faint.
Silly claims, considering what Yuri Gagarin said.
I ask nothing from anyone. Believe what you will.
But I dont buy it. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 289861
10/13/2007 6:34 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
The Apollo guys all claim that stars were either non existent or very faint. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 311736
And this is one of such claims you need to show that is true before it is true. And this claim by you is not true. The Apollo guys don't all claim that stars were either non existent or very faint; I've given an example where an astronaut talks about using stars to line up the Apollo spacecraft correctly in space that proves your unproven statement wrong. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 311736
10/13/2007 6:38 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
"And this is one of such claims you need to show "
Again, pumpkin, I do not have any "needs".
I dont "need" to show anything, as I do not care what you believe.
Stars did not exist to Apollo astronuts. Unseeable.
Cheerio. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 289861
10/13/2007 6:41 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
Stars did not exist to Apollo astronuts. Unseeable. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 311736
Alright, this is going nowhere. Let me take a different route.
How do you know this? How do you know stars did not exist to Apollo astronauts? |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 311736
10/13/2007 6:42 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
Stars did not exist to Apollo astronuts. Unseeable.
Alright, this is going nowhere. Let me take a different route.
How do you know this? How do you know stars did not exist to Apollo astronauts? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 289861
You may read the past 15 pages, if you like. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 289861
10/13/2007 6:44 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
I have. I found no such claims. So where did you find it? |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 311736
10/13/2007 6:46 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
I have. I found no such claims. So where did you find it? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 289861
Pumpkin, the past 15 pages have been about the no stars deal.
Please, dont bullshitt experienced folks.
Its not appropriate. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 289861
10/13/2007 6:48 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
I have found no post where proof was given that all of the astronauts said there are no stars in space. |
| futrono
User ID: 292268
10/13/2007 6:50 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
To any of those "in the know" with some time and patience to share: What was the purpose of taking the lunar rover up to the moon ? |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 311736
10/13/2007 6:51 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
I have found no post where proof was given that all of the astronauts said there are no stars in space. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 289861
Well, I guess that then, that is your problem.
No one else's.
Good day. |
| nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 311906
10/13/2007 6:53 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
He saw it in a YouTube video. Can't remember who said it, or why, or what proof was offered. But, hey, it was on a video, so it must be real!
I really wonder sometimes about this selective standard of proof. A video of Bart Sibrel saying "Aldrin won't say he was on the Moon" is more convincing than a video of ALDRIN saying "I was on the Moon." |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 289861
10/13/2007 6:54 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
Au contraire, pumpkin.
It's your problem. Your claims remain unproven, and they remain proven wrong. You've been proven wrong and any proof that shows you are right is nowhere to be found.
Basically, you're bullshitting everyone here, saying the astronauts said they never saw stars, and being unable verify it. Your claim, your inability to back it up, your problem. Don't try to shift your problems to other people, that's inappropriate. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 311736
10/13/2007 6:59 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
Au contraire, pumpkin.
It's your problem. Your claims remain unproven, and they remain proven wrong. You've been proven wrong and any proof that shows you are right is nowhere to be found.
Basically, you're bullshitting everyone here, saying the astronauts said they never saw stars, and being unable verify it. Your claim, your inability to back it up, your problem. Don't try to shift your problems to other people, that's inappropriate. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 289861
Not really.
I have no problem with believers.
If people want to believe in this scam, I say fine. Go for it.
It does not affect me either way.
You believe.
Thats cool.
I dont. And thats cool, too.
Thats freedom, baby. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 289861
10/13/2007 7:02 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
True, true, you have the right to believe whatever you want. Even if one's beliefs are based on thin air and incorrect facts.
I myself try to stay a bit closer to the truth than blindly believing things and ignoring everything that proves it wrong. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 311736
10/13/2007 7:05 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
True, true, you have the right to believe whatever you want. Even if one's beliefs are based on thin air and incorrect facts.
I myself try to stay a bit closer to the truth than blindly believing things and ignoring everything that proves it wrong. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 289861
It's cool baby!
Its just a moon hoax.
No need to get excited. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 311736
10/13/2007 7:22 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
" myself try to stay a bit closer to the truth than blindly believing things "
You believe what your TV told you to believe.
You lash out at unbelievers.
You are the blind believer. |
| SpaceCadet
User ID: 16644
10/13/2007 8:25 PM
 | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
NASA has been claiming for decades that it is nearly impossible for astronauts to see stars, but now the Astronomy Picture of the Day admits that without an atmosphere(AS ON THE MOON), we would see stars even when the sun was shining.
[link to www.erichufschmid.net]
The reflected sunlight travels in straight lines. There is no atmosphere to scatter the sunlight(LIKE ON THE MOON), so when an astronaut (or camera) looks up at the stars, how could the reflected light from the lunar surface get into his eyes?
[link to www.erichufschmid.net]
The other thing is how is it possible for the backside of astronauts from the Sun to be illuminated the way it does while on the Moon. When no light can be scattered up from the ground to lighten them as bright as they are shown, when there is no atmoshere to carry alot of light back up, except of course for only up to 7% of reflected light. 7% of reflected light would not illuminate their backsides from the Sun as much as is shown in the Moon pics. The light would also not be so very consistant all over the backside of the astronauts from the Sun. Their whole backsides in the shade is illuminated so very evenly and no darkspots are shown, that is very unusual for 7% reflected light that travels in a straight line from any bumps, curves or angles in the Moon ground.
The only way for the consistancy of reflected light to occur the way it does on the parts of the astronauts so very clearly seen in the shade, is if the Moon surface in front of the shaded body parts was perfectly smooth & completely flat, and facing up at any astronaut in a straight line towards them.
I'll wait for Jack Barls, Jack Hazzard, and all of the other hoax debunker Jack's out there to try and debunk this one. |
| nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 311906
10/13/2007 8:35 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
Um...how is it no light can be scattered off the surface without an atmosphere?
I can see myself in a mirror. Does that require atmosphere? I can see light reflecting off a satellite. Aren't they outside the atmosphere?
Really, you should take a look outside more. Basically, for any shot you make in daylight, there are three primary sources of light; the sun, the sky.....and the light that bounces off the other objects around.
Here's a quick and easy. Look under a car. Can you see anything? Why can you? The body of the car not only shades the sun, but the sky. The only light getting down there is bouncing from street, buildings, other cars, your own body.
Atmosphere has nothing to do with the reflection of light. |
| nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 311906
10/13/2007 8:46 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
I should specify, in as much as we have some astoundingly literal-minded people on this thread, that light does reflect (and refract) within the atmosphere. No-one disagrees with that.
The point is that light does not require an atmosphere to reflect.
All objects reflect. Most will have a combination of specular and diffuse components. Many will have other qualities, including retroreflection. Many objects also fluoresce. None of these are required for the basic task of sending light from a single source to some other place.
Next time you see a "making of," or are lucky enough to watch a film crew at work, notice the large white or silver objects they are holding up. For that matter, your corner portrait photographer will also have similar devices. These variously-named objects bounce light from the sun or sky to where it can fill in a scene or photographic subject.
The real world does the same. Take a look next time you are outside on concrete, on sand, on snow; see how sunlight and skylight reflect upwards and light the undersides of objects.
What is seen in the Apollo photographs is no different. And it isn't even a strong effect in the Apollo record; in almost all of the pictures where shadows are being filled in by bounce light, those parts of the astronaut that are in direct sunlight are the pure blurred-out white of intense over-exposure. |
| SpaceCadet
User ID: 16644
10/13/2007 9:02 PM
| | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
What is seen in the Apollo photographs is no different. And it isn't even a strong effect in the Apollo record; in almost all of the pictures where shadows are being filled in by bounce light, those parts of the astronaut that are in direct sunlight are the pure blurred-out white of intense over-exposure. Quoting: nomuse (NLI) 311906
What you said still doesn't explain what I wrote, "The only way for the consistancy of reflected light to occur the way it does on the parts of the astronauts so very clearly seen in the shade, is if the Moon surface in front of the shaded body parts was perfectly smooth & completely flat, and facing up at any astronaut in a straight line towards them."
How is it that the astronauts body parts seen in the shade are all evenly illuminated? There should be lighter spots, slightly darker spots, and completely blackened unseen spots. |
| nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 311906
10/13/2007 9:05 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
NASA has been claiming for decades that it is nearly impossible for astronauts to see stars, but now the Astronomy Picture of the Day admits that without an atmosphere(AS ON THE MOON), we would see stars even when the sun was shining. Quoting: SpaceCadet
If our eyes could handle the dynamic range. APOD is aimed at people with a basic background in stargazing. No stargazer of more than a night's experience thinks you can look at surroundings as bright as the daytime Earth, and also be adjusted to see faint stars.
Try this for an experiment. Get one of those little LED penlights. Have a friend flash it at you from half a block away. That's close to the illumination level of a star. Can you see it on a nice night? Probably. During the day? Almost certainly not.
The light didn't change. Your eyes did; they adjusted to the brighter surroundings.
The reflected sunlight travels in straight lines. There is no atmosphere to scatter the sunlight(LIKE ON THE MOON), so when an astronaut (or camera) looks up at the stars, how could the reflected light from the lunar surface get into his eyes? Quoting: SpaceCadet
Light always travels in straight lines, except for curved space, and when moving from one medium to another of different density.
First problem here is "the astronaut looks straight up." With a full helmet on, that doesn't tilt, and a heavy pack. Here's an approximation; load up a frame pack until you can barely stand. Now put on a motorcycle helmet. How comfortable is it looking "straight up?" Now imagine that pack is fragile and you will die if anything in it breaks. Still want to lean way back?
The astronaut can still, however, look up a little. Problem is that the ground is not flat. There is stuff in his visual horizon. A worse problem is...he isn't bare-headed under the stars (there's that whole quick-death thing again.)
Again the motorcycle helmet is a simple analogy. Only let's go dirt-biking first, so it is nice and dusty, has some smears and maybe some scratches on the visor where you tried to wipe it off. Hey, good luck even seeing a bird through that thing now! You are trying to crane your head, the sun is bouncing off all that nice dust and your own white suit...about all you can see up there is glare.
Sure, it is doable.
In fact, several astronauts have accounts of doing so!
But what did they do? Find five minutes out of their busy schedule, get themselves and that white suit and as much of their immediate surroundings as they could manage into shadow (usually the shadow of the LM), wait for their eyes to adjust...and then they can look at stars.
Not particularly entrancing or glorious. But, heck, I'd do it too. |
| nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 311906
10/13/2007 9:11 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
How is it that the astronauts body parts seen in the shade are all evenly illuminated, there should be lighter spots, slightly darker spots, and completely blacken unseen spots. Quoting: SpaceCadet
I can see lighter spots, darker spots. But that's maybe because I have done lighting professionally.
Thing to look for...look for illumination that isn't 180 degrees from source. That's going to be less. Also, look at the astronaut's shins. The light on their lower legs tapers off rapidly.
Another thing to look for. Look at the TOPS of shapes that are in shadow of the astronaut. Those will reveal quite quickly that the fill light is coming from below the astronaut, not above.
What may be confusing your mental model is that you forget light doesn't stop, either. The light on the astronaut is not from a rock or two a meter in front of them; it's from the entire lunar landscape out to the horizon.
This smooths out the "lumpiness" you seem to be expecting. |
| SpaceCadet
User ID: 16644
10/13/2007 9:19 PM
| | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
What may be confusing your mental model is that you forget light doesn't stop, either. The light on the astronaut is not from a rock or two a meter in front of them; it's from the entire lunar landscape out to the horizon.
This smooths out the "lumpiness" you seem to be expecting. Quoting: nomuse (NLI) 311906
Your also forgetting the Moon is a very poor reflector, only 7% of light is reflected, light off in the horizon would not reflect very far at all. Also if light hitting the ground in front of the astronauts shaded areas bounces off grains of sand/dust, little rocks, ect, at a 7% reflection in a straight line onto another grain of sand, it would only bounce off that second lot of grain of sand/dust/rocks-7% of 7% reflected light, ect, that is a very weakened continual amount of reflection indeed.
It is just not possible and against all laws of science, that the astronauts body parts seen in the shade are all evenly illuminated and with no completely blackened unseen spots! |
| | Page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144 | |
|
