| | | Page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144 | APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!??
| IDW
User ID: 315829
10/22/2007 5:40 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
And what about the experiment, Nomuse? Why didnt you do it?
Simple way to prove me wrong or right! Cost you a dollar or two, results definitive and almost immeadiate. Buy a flashlight battery and drive an efficient ground rod into the ground. Now ground the negative terminal of the battery and test it every hour for voltage output. Withen two days the battery will be dead. At higher voltages the discharge is more rapid. There is no positive connection except to the atmosphere. How are these electrons flowing OUT of the battery, yet NOT back into it? |
| nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 315941
10/22/2007 5:53 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
The difficulty with the LEM was its center of gravity was located well above the thruster, making stability an issue. It was an illogical design that doesnt appear to have ever been intended to work, but to satisfy the expectations of what such a vehicle should look like. Quoting: IDW 315829
Pardon me if that's the stupidest thing I've heard in a while.
Satisfy the expectations of WHOM?
If you are trying to satisfy the expectations of those with a basic understanding of Mechanics and rocketry then you MUST create a design that they could see would work. Come on! You've got space scientists and interested amateurs -- down to model rocket clubs and high school science students -- who are scribbling ideas of their own for future spacecraft, for missions to Mars, the first colonies on the Moon, and so forth. They can tell if you made a stupid design.
Heck, hire one of those kids to draw up plans for the fake spacecraft!
There is no excuse for getting it wrong.
Oh, except there IS one excuse to "get it wrong." And that is the kids that slept through class -- and today know a hell of a lot less than that. The people who look at the outside of the LM with visions from Star Wars and Star Trek in their heads and say "That couldn't possibly work! It isn't streamlined! There's no rivets! No flame comes out the back! No glowing panels and random blinking lights! What kind of fake cardboard spacecraft are you trying to fob off on us here!"
How would you satisfy the scientifically illiterate with your design?
Let's take on a parallel case. Own up to it; the first generation of Hoax Believers still think there should be stars in the backgrounds. Heck, a lot of the present crop still do! Do you add stars or don't you?
If you leave the stars out, the yokels will cry "It's a fake!"
If you put the stars in, all the astronomers and photographers will cry "It's a fake!"
The same problem weighs on the designers of the spacecraft. Exactly what would you put on a fake spacecraft that would satisfy the people who think a rocket thrust needs air to push against, while also convincing the people who have shot a bipropellant model rocket 50 miles into the air and retrieved telemetry from it? |
| nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 315941
10/22/2007 5:57 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
And what about the experiment, Nomuse? Why didnt you do it?
Simple way to prove me wrong or right! Cost you a dollar or two, results definitive and almost immeadiate. Buy a flashlight battery and drive an efficient ground rod into the ground. Now ground the negative terminal of the battery and test it every hour for voltage output. Withen two days the battery will be dead. At higher voltages the discharge is more rapid. There is no positive connection except to the atmosphere. How are these electrons flowing OUT of the battery, yet NOT back into it? Quoting: IDW 315829
You first. I've given you fifteen pages to find a battery and two resistors.
But it's too late for you on that one. I don't care how carefully you backstep and retract and try to pretend you knew the right answer all along. I've gotten tired of your bullying tactics. You were wrong about the voltage divider. The only way you'll ever be right, is to admit you were wrong -- with a full apology. |
| lightning
User ID: 264194
10/22/2007 6:30 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
But if you put sentences together like a third grader and apprear to have the knowledge and wisdom of an idiot, your opinion becomes totally irrelevant. Quoting: IDW 315829
ah yes,the old -attacking the writer instead of the arguement- routine. IDW sure is one predictable woo woo.
No, its not. Theres not one piece of incontrovertable evidence. Quoting: IDW 315829
lol,comming from you and your view of reality,i think ill file that under -paranoid uneducated white trash bs-
Thats really the bottom line.
ps:you never answered the question...do you shove this shit down your kids throats!!?? |
| nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 315941
10/22/2007 6:33 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
By the way, your test is a little nonsensical. Why should I drive my own grounding rod? There's one not twenty feet away, bonded to the service box.
And since this is a clean connection to ground, and I have properly grounded and tested outlets, I would get the same result attaching my battery to the ground lug of one of the outlets.
Except that the electronic equipment on my desk -- including several computers -- has a chassis ground tied to that same ground lug (which is in turn run from well-inspected wires to a copper stake buried deep in the soil near the front of the building.)
The only question remaining is what electronic equipment I own has backup batteries (PRAM batteries, in the case of my laptops), and in which of these circuit ground plane is equal to chassis ground (most of them, I would hope!)
I have a keyboard that has kept it's internal memory on a tiny button battery for five years. Would you accept if I measured the resistance between the ground lug on the nearest outlet and that battery's negative pole? |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 315988
10/22/2007 7:02 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
All right...
[ link to img86.imageshack.us]
Quick gif animation. Dunno about you, but I can see the camera's shift to the right very clearly.
Yeah, the movement is visible, but there are still the same backgrounds. Your gif confirms it.
Come on debunkers, explain it! |
| nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 315941
10/22/2007 7:12 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
I did.
Why wouldn't the background be the same?
I mean, I can stroll all over my home town, and I can still see the same hills in the background.
And there are obvious 3d changes in that gif animation. Features move on the right ridge. The shape of the left ridge changes. You could make a stereogram from these two images.
So if there was a fake background, it wasn't a painted canvas. It had to have depth. In fact, it almost certainly would need to be a sculpted model. |
| nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 315941
10/22/2007 7:14 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
It strikes me that someone might not be looking that closely at my gif animation.
The point is not that the background moves.
The point is that different parts of the background move differently.
The ridge on the left slides behind the ridge on the right. It hides behind it.
No single painting could do that. |
| IDW
User ID: 315829
10/22/2007 8:37 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
By the way, your test is a little nonsensical. Why should I drive my own grounding rod? There's one not twenty feet away, bonded to the service box. Quoting: nomuse (NLI) 315941
Because the grounding rod of your house may already be bringing electrons to ground, which will skew the results.
And since this is a clean connection to ground, and I have properly grounded and tested outlets, I would get the same result attaching my battery to the ground lug of one of the outlets. Quoting: NoUse
Probably, but thats not a sound experimental technique for several reasons. If electricity is leaking to ground through any appliance or circuit in your home, the ground will already have a negative potential.The resistance of the ground is not zero.
Except that the electronic equipment on my desk -- including several computers -- has a chassis ground tied to that same ground lug (which is in turn run from well-inspected wires to a copper stake buried deep in the soil near the front of the building.) Quoting: Nomuse
And the ground is not in any way connected to the dc circuitry inside the computer. Its only there because the computer has a dc output power supply that has an ac input.
The only question remaining is what electronic equipment I own has backup batteries (PRAM batteries, in the case of my laptops), and in which of these circuit ground plane is equal to chassis ground (most of them, I would hope!) Quoting: NoUse
No, it's not. Laptops are not grounded.Negative does NOT equal "ground" in a dc circuit. Weve already covered that.
I have a keyboard that has kept it's internal memory on a tiny button battery for five years. Would you accept if I measured the resistance between the ground lug on the nearest outlet and that battery's negative pole? Quoting: Nouse
Go ahead, but it will prove nothing. I know your too stupid to understand why, that is already well established. Resistance would be almost infinite between the two because they are not connected to each other except by the multimeter measuring the resistance. |
| nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 315941
10/22/2007 8:40 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
Resistance would be almost infinite between the two because they are not connected to each other except by the multimeter measuring the resistance. Quoting: IDW 315829
Will you make a wager?
I'll take my screwdriver to any electronic device I have that's not on an external power supply. |
| IDW
User ID: 315829
10/22/2007 8:42 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
You first. I've given you fifteen pages to find a battery and two resistors.
But it's too late for you on that one. I don't care how carefully you backstep and retract and try to pretend you knew the right answer all along. I've gotten tired of your bullying tactics. You were wrong about the voltage divider. The only way you'll ever be right, is to admit you were wrong -- with a full apology. Quoting: nomuse (NLI) 315941
No, I wasnt wrong, you were. Voltage in a series circuit is equal to voltage of the power source, PERIOD, there is no wiggle room here.
VOltage drop across a resistor is NOT circuit voltage.Tapping into the voltage drop accross a resistance in a series circuit will produce a reduced voltage, but it is an inefficient way to get it, and used only in low power requirement applications.
I told you why you were wrong and you still dont get it or unwilling to admit it. WHy do you think your power supplies use tranformers instead of cheaper resisors? |
| IDW
User ID: 315829
10/22/2007 8:45 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
Resistance would be almost infinite between the two because they are not connected to each other except by the multimeter measuring the resistance.
Will you make a wager?
I'll take my screwdriver to any electronic device I have that's not on an external power supply. Quoting: nomuse (NLI) 315941
Do it. Try it. Resistance will be infinite. The button battery in your computer to the grounded chassis would be even easier. |
| IDW
User ID: 315829
10/22/2007 8:55 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
About now, Nomuse is saying to himself, damned, it is infinite , and I am wrong yet again. It would be easier if he just let me take him out back and kick him in the nuts(figuratively speaking, of course) before we ever get started. Then he could save us all alot of time.
Nomuse, you are not just stupid, you are willfully ignorant and unrepentant of your intellectual crimes. I have no mercy for you. Call me an intellectual bully if you like, it just reenforces the idea that youre a numbnut whos always wrong about everything. That is my fualt, my boy. If you would shut your mouth and simply observe the pattern, you could save yourself being repeatedly wrong by AGREEING with me. |
| IDW
User ID: 315829
10/22/2007 8:56 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
No, Nomuse, the batteries in the meter arent dead. That isnt it.
LMAO! I knew THIS shit when I was SEVEN! |
| IDW
User ID: 315829
10/22/2007 9:03 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
Nomuse, now that you are reasonably sure you are wrong again, I wuld like you to point out one instance where you were proved right about something, and I was proved wrong about the same subject. One instance. Now what are the odds you are right about Apollo, and I am wrong?
Genius shouldnt be dispised by those of avergae intellectual capacity, but unfortunately in a world where ignorance is supreme, its no wonder it so often is. |
| nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 315941
10/22/2007 9:11 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
No, I wasnt wrong, you were. Voltage in a series circuit is equal to voltage of the power source, PERIOD, there is no wiggle room here. Quoting: IDW 315829
Wiggle, wiggle. I'd never be dumb enough to say that the total voltages didn't add to zero. But you were.
VOltage drop across a resistor is NOT circuit voltage. Quoting: IDW 315829
No, it's voltage across a resistor. Why do you keep dragging the sum of the total circuit in here? Is it just to present the appearance of not making a mistake earlier?
Tapping into the voltage drop accross a resistance in a series circuit will produce a reduced voltage, but it is an inefficient way to get it, and used only in low power requirement applications. Quoting: IDW 315829
Wrong. Voltage across a load is voltage across a load is voltage across a load. I've powered a bank of 150W lights on more than one occasion. People lighting movies do more than that...purchase and read [link to www.amazon.com] if you'd like to learn more.
WHy do you think your power supplies use tranformers instead of cheaper resisors? Quoting: IDW 315829
Transformers efficiently trade voltage for current. An arc welder, for instance, runs in the tens of volts; it is the current that heats the workpiece.
The problem with voltage-dividing methods is the need to balance the resistance of the loads. To get half the voltage in a simple lamp, for instance, requires a second load of the same resistance -- which means it would burn as much power as the lamp. For lamps, that's easy to do; look at an old Christmas Tree strand. For a home computer, not so easy.
Connected to this is the need to balance a changing load. What if my computer draws more power when the disk is spinning? My series element would have to compensate by lowering it's resistance at the same time.
But, on the other hand -- inside many of the electronic devices I use daily (including the one I'm prototyping on my desk at the moment) is a entirely non-transformer voltage regulator. In the case of my little box, that old standby the 7805. Like a zener diode, it is crowbarring the top of a 9v battery supply down to ground over a millionth-of-an-amp solid state pathway, leaving me with clean regulated 5V "TTL." |
| IDW
User ID: 315829
10/22/2007 9:22 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
But the resistance between the battery and the ground was infinite, wasnt it Nomuse?
Nomatter how elloquently you state nonsense, nomatter how ell written it is or how grmatically correct or how many facts it contains, if the basic premise is wrong, you are wrong. You are ALWAYS wrong when you disagree with me, youre just not bright enough to realize it at first. |
| nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 316058
10/22/2007 9:31 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
Sorry about that. Took a few minutes to shut down my desktop, pull it out to where I could open it up, check for continuity and put it back in working order again.
Continuity established, battery negative pin to chassis ground, also chassis ground to electrical ground.
Now, I dare you to do the same.
Actually, I've got a better idea. Every reader of this thread who hasn't yet been convinced of IDW's ignorance, and who has a continuity tester or volt-ohmeter available, crack the case of their own PC and measure from back-up battery, negative terminal, to metal chassis. Anyone who gets the expected continuity, you've earned the privilege to say "IDW is a big idiot and I've proved it to myself."
Hey, if there are enough takers I'll look into getting a t-shirt design set up at Cafe Press! |
| IDW
User ID: 315829
10/22/2007 9:32 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
No, I wasnt wrong, you were. Voltage in a series circuit is equal to voltage of the power source, PERIOD, there is no wiggle room here. Quoting: IDW
Wiggle, wiggle. I'd never be dumb enough to say that the total voltages didn't add to zero. But you were. Quoting: NoUse
No I wasnt, and given the twi quote above it proves your a moron. Thw two mean the same thing.
Voltage drop across a resistor is NOT circuit voltage. Quoting: IDW
No, it's voltage across a resistor. Why do you keep dragging the sum of the total circuit in here? Is it just to present the appearance of not making a mistake earlier? Quoting: NoUse
A review of the posts in question will show where you interchanged voltage drop to circuit voltage, and were wrong.
Tapping into the voltage drop accross a resistance in a series circuit will produce a reduced voltage, but it is an inefficient way to get it, and used only in low power requirement applications. Quoting: IDW
Wrong. Voltage across a load is voltage across a load is voltage across a load. I've powered a bank of 150W lights on more than one occasion. People lighting movies do more than that...purchase and read [ link to www.amazon.com] if you'd like to learn more.
I didnt say you couldnt get a reduced voltage that way, did I now?
WHy do you think your power supplies use tranformers instead of cheaper resisors? Quoting: NoUse
Transformers efficiently trade voltage for current. An arc welder, for instance, runs in the tens of volts; it is the current that heats the workpiece. Quoting: NoUse
No, it isnt. Its the wattage that produces an arc that creates the heat. Wattage = current X voltage. A typical mig welder like I have in my garage operates at aorund 22 volts dc and 100 amps, or 2200 WATTS. Without a high enough voltage, no arc will occur.
The problem with voltage-dividing methods is the need to balance the resistance of the loads. To get half the voltage in a simple lamp, for instance, requires a second load of the same resistance -- which means it would burn as much power as the lamp. For lamps, that's easy to do; look at an old Christmas Tree strand. For a home computer, not so easy.
Connected to this is the need to balance a changing load. What if my computer draws more power when the disk is spinning? My series element would have to compensate by lowering it's resistance at the same time.
But, on the other hand -- inside many of the electronic devices I use daily (including the one I'm prototyping on my desk at the moment) is a entirely non-transformer voltage regulator. In the case of my little box, that old standby the 7805. Like a zener diode, it is crowbarring the top of a 9v battery supply down to ground over a millionth-of-an-amp solid state pathway, leaving me with clean regulated 5V "TTL." Quoting: NoMuse
This is not only off topic nonsense, its not worthy of my time to respond. |
| nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 316058
10/22/2007 9:35 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
By the by, if the battery-to-ground lug test I suggested won't work because "there's too may electrons already in the ground," then why are my lights still on?
I mean, there's a single ground rod for my service (like I said, about twenty feet from where I sit).
Every time I turn on a light, that's more electrons to ground (by IDW's wacky electronics, that is).
So how come I can continue turning them on without a drop in potential? Why aren't they getting dimmer? Aren't they're electrons getting congested?
The more I look at your theory, the more holes it seems to have. And I'm not talking positive carriers in a conductor, neither! |
| lightning
User ID: 264194
10/22/2007 9:36 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
that is IDW talk for - i just lost the debate.
you are such a prdictable woo woo. |
| IDW
User ID: 315829
10/22/2007 9:36 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
Sorry about that. Took a few minutes to shut down my desktop, pull it out to where I could open it up, check for continuity and put it back in working order again.
Continuity established, battery negative pin to chassis ground, also chassis ground to electrical ground.
Now, I dare you to do the same. Quoting: nomuse (NLI) 316058
Youre a fucking liar as well as an idiot. |
| IDW
User ID: 315829
10/22/2007 9:39 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
that is IDW talk for - i just lost the debate.
you are such a prdictable woo woo. Quoting: lightning 264194
You two working together against me are like two raccoons tag teaming a grizzly.
Remember, I enjoy this. Theres a reason. |
| nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 316058
10/22/2007 9:40 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
A 7805 is nonsense? A zener diode is nonsense? Oh, come on. You can't open a batter-powered electronics device without finding a solid-state voltage regulator in it.
Right on my desk is a self-contained, battery-powered device with TTL-level circuitry (aka 5V DC.) It is powered by a single 9V "transistor" battery. How does it get from one to the other? Not a transformer in sight. It's all done in a block of silicon belonging to the 7805 family.
A little later this week I'm breadboarding up another one with my favorite 7805, filter caps, and of course another 9V battery. The voltage inside the circuit, circuitry which draws somewhere above 30 mA and runs down that battery in approximately ten hours, is 5V.
Solid-state regulation is a reality, no matter what you think of it. |
| nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 316058
10/22/2007 9:43 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
Sorry about that. Took a few minutes to shut down my desktop, pull it out to where I could open it up, check for continuity and put it back in working order again.
Continuity established, battery negative pin to chassis ground, also chassis ground to electrical ground.
Now, I dare you to do the same.
Youre a fucking liar as well as an idiot. Quoting: IDW 315829
Now why does this surprise me?
IDW, if you did the same test you are either a liar, a complete incompetent at using basic electronics test tools (which would not surprise me), or you are on a computer assembled by someone who shouldn't be allowed near sharp objects.
Hey, lightning, care to be the first in the "I slapped IDW" club? All it takes is a few minutes, a computer, and a continuity tester. |
| IDW
User ID: 315829
10/22/2007 9:43 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
Grounding the battery to the same circuit you grounded the negative side of the rest of the dc chassis would pop the battery wide open. The negatives CANT be all grounded, theyre different voltages. My cpmuter has a power supply that produces three seperate voltages, and the only thing that is grounded is the metal chassis. There IS NOT an connection between dc negative and this chassis. |
| nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 316058
10/22/2007 9:50 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
Not going to check the battery, then? |
| IDW
User ID: 315829
10/22/2007 9:51 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
By the by, if the battery-to-ground lug test I suggested won't work because "there's too may electrons already in the ground," then why are my lights still on?
I mean, there's a single ground rod for my service (like I said, about twenty feet from where I sit).
Every time I turn on a light, that's more electrons to ground (by IDW's wacky electronics, that is).
So how come I can continue turning them on without a drop in potential? Why aren't they getting dimmer? Aren't they're electrons getting congested?
The more I look at your theory, the more holes it seems to have. And I'm not talking positive carriers in a conductor, neither! Quoting: nomuse (NLI) 316058
The chances are , you have trace amounst of electricity leaking to ground. Thats why you have a ground, so that the path of least resistance is not YOu in such a case. All it takes is a little water or corrosion. My house had a ground fault in the washing machine, and my computer never fried out because of it. If the negative side of the dc circuit were grounded, the computer would be shot, wouldnt it? 220 volts would flow BACKWARDS through the ground overcoming the lower dc potential and fry the power supply and most of the components.
I KNOW youre a liar, Nomuse. Youre not just stupid, you compound it with dishonesty. There is no connection between ground and CMOS backup battery in a computer. Ive done enough diagnostic testing on computers to know what you claim is patently rediculous. |
| IDW
User ID: 315829
10/22/2007 9:55 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
Not going to check the battery, then? Quoting: nomuse (NLI) 316058
I have three computers here and the resistance between the negative of the backup battery and the chassis is infinite in all three. There is nothing wrong with any of them. PERHAPS< you dont know how to place the multimeter selector to measure resistance, you dont know how to read it, or you are lying. It is one of the three. |
| nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 316058
10/22/2007 9:58 PM | | Re: APOLLO MOON LANDINGS ------- FAKED OR REAL !!?? | Quote |
By the by, voltages are referenced to ground. You can have multiple voltages reference a single ground. I've worked with op-amp circuits with +/- 12V supplies referenced to common ground.
(You can also have an isolated "signal ground" that is not connected to chassis ground; some audio gear uses this.) |
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