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The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?

 
Anonymous Coward
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10/19/2007 09:22 PM
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The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
[link to en.wikipedia.org]
The Titles of Nobility Amendment (TONA) is a proposed amendment to the United States Constitution dating from 1810. It was submitted to the state legislatures during the 2nd Session of the 11th Congress via a resolution offered by U.S. Senator Philip Reed of Maryland—and has not taken effect because it has not yet been ratified by the legislatures of enough states. As quoted on page 613, Volume II, Statutes At Large, covering the 6th Congress through the 12th Congress, the proposed amendment reads:

If any citizen of the United States shall accept, claim, receive or retain, any title of nobility or honour, or shall, without the consent of Congress, accept and retain any present, pension, office or emolument of any kind whatever, from any emperor, king, prince or foreign power, such person shall cease to be a citizen of the United States, and shall be incapable of holding any office of trust or profit under them, or either of them.

The TONA—if ever ratified—would modify the following provision which appears in Article I, Section 9, of the original Constitution:
No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.

Theories
Some people claim that the TONA actually was properly ratified and that it has been suppressed as part of a vast conspiracy orchestrated by attorneys who do not wish to forfeit their American citizenship when they use the title "Esquire" after their last name (although Esquire, even in the United Kingdom, is not a title of nobility).

There is a school of thought that Virginia lawmakers adopted the TONA sometime before the invasion of the eastern portion of the United States by British troops during the War of 1812 and that, as a consequence of the sacking, pillaging, and burning of government records in Virginia and Washington, D.C., by the British, there was a loss of the documentation which would attest to a valid ratification of the TONA by Virginia's legislators.

The assertion that the TONA actually was validly ratified has never been upheld by any court in the United States. To the contrary, in the few instances in which courts have been confronted with such claims, judges have brushed those claims aside. In Campion v. Towns, No.CV-04-1516PHX-ROS, *2 n.1 (D. Ariz. 2005), a tax protester raised TONA as one of his defenses to a charge of tax evasion. The court replied that it would "correct any misunderstanding Plaintiff has concerning the text of the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution":

In his Complaint, Plaintiff includes a certified copy of the Thirteenth Amendment from the Colorado State Archives which was published in 1861. As included in that compilation, the Thirteenth Amendment would strip an individual of United States citizenship if they accept any title of nobility or honor. However, this is not the Thirteenth Amendment. The correct Thirteenth Amendment prohibits slavery. Although some people claim that state publication of the erroneous Thirteenth Amendment makes it valid, Article V of the Constitution does not so provide.

In another case, Sibley v. Culliver, 243 F. Supp. 2d 1278, 1283 (M.D. Ala. 2003), aff'd 377 F.3d 1196 (11th Cir. 2004), a federal court in Alabama found that the defendant's invocation of TONA actually worked to his detriment. The court took note of documents produced by the defendant, a convicted murderer who submitted documents in support of his appeal claiming that TONA rendered his conviction invalid:

These documents allege in great detail a complex conspiracy by an illegal monopoly, the American Bar Association, which resulted in a take-over of the judicial systems of this country, both federal and state, by the ABA and its related entities, including the Alabama State Bar Association and Alabama's Unified Court System. It is then alleged that the ABA-controlled system is illegal and in violation of what is referred to as the "missing Thirteenth Amendment," to the United States Constitution, which stated that any person who accepts a title of nobility forfeits his United States citizenship, and which Amendment was ratified but subsequently hidden or excised from the law. Since lawyers and judges accept the titles "Esquire" and "The Honorable," it is argued, they are not citizens and the entire judicial system is illegal.

Furthermore, these documents contend that the charge of conviction in this case, capital murder of a police officer acting in the line of duty, is unconstitutional because it bestows upon police officers special rights or a special designation of the worth of life in contravention of the "missing Thirteenth Amendment." The documents then explain that these are reasons that Sibley and his wife refused appointed counsel on appeal and refused to pursue matters any further in the court system, and that only Congress can give them relief.

The Sibley court dismissed the appeal, concluding in part that the defendant was simply not seeking relief through the courts.

Furthermore, supporters maintain that—if ratified—the TONA would have consequences above and beyond those listed above. Among the TONA's claimed additional effects would be:

When someone in the United States becomes a lawyer, he or she often uses the title of "Esquire" (or an abbreviation thereof) to signify his or her status, much as doctors attach "M.D." to their names. Supporters of the TONA claim that this constitutes "a British title of gentry" because the state bar associations in the United States were franchises of the British International Bar Association in the early 1800s. Therefore, so the argument goes, any lawyer in the United States who uses the title "Esquire" is British gentry, and would—under a validly-ratified TONA—forsake his or her American citizenship, and be unable to hold any U.S. government office.
The word "honour" (as it is spelled in the text of the proposed TONA) in the phrase "title of nobility or honour" should not be interpreted as "title of honour" in the traditional sense, but rather as "obtaining or having an advantage or privilege over another," which includes, among other things, the immunity to lawsuits which is held by various government officials. Theoretically then—were TONA to ever be ratified—there is a school of thought that judges could be sued for the legal decisions that they make, and that legislators could be sued for the laws that they pass.

...............



DR. Ron Paul - what does he have up his sleave? He is obviously well aware of this -
discuss....
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/19/2007 09:25 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
sorry about the typo. i meant "challenging" in the headline.
Anonymous Coward
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10/19/2007 09:28 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
Why don't you discuss it?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/19/2007 09:35 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
well

it sounds like Paul is either:

a. lying about everything and this whole deal with Paul in every aspect is a set up so the NWO can gain more control.

b. he's challenging this hidden amendment in order to make it come to light so it can be ratified. He is setting up the NWO to attack him over something they have denied, hidden, and distorted.

c. he doesn't consider the hidden amendment to be constitutional because supposedly it was never ratified.
BlueStraza

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10/19/2007 09:43 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
being the constitutionalist RP is, this would make sense hes trying to bring it to light. he follows in the footsteps of the Founding fathers, and the uncorrupt 'old congress'. The fact that 'All man is created equal' in the united states would make this Amendment a very believeable deal. In other words, the found fathers believed having a Title of Nobility or Honour would put some people above others. They never really liked that thought since they believe 'All man are equal'. it also would affect, as stated in the OP's post, the jucial system; which is rather unfair these days, and would weed out pretty much any asshole who hungers for power over others with retarded law and rulings.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/19/2007 09:43 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
bump

HELLO????
this is big people!
this is important!

we need to get a response from Paul in regards to this ASAP!
von Doom
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10/19/2007 09:48 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
Perhaps it's to get Sir Rudy out of the way.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/19/2007 09:49 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
bump !!!!
BlueStraza

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10/19/2007 09:50 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
bump !!!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 311948



agreed.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/19/2007 09:55 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
for the peeps who are having a hard time putting this together:
this hidden amendment, part of the 13th, forbids people who are running for any type of office to hold a title of nobility, ie: DR, MOD, etc. It claims that to accept such foriegn notability you instantly lose your american citizenship.
in a nutshell: you must be a US citizen to run for US president according to the constitution.


the question is: why is he challenging this? if he honestly supports the constitution, then he should be supporting this amendment. But he insists on running for the pres with the title of nobility: DR. Ron Paul.
von Doom
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10/19/2007 09:59 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
for the peeps who are having a hard time putting this together:
this hidden amendment, part of the 13th, forbids people who are running for any type of office to hold a title of nobility, ie: DR, MOD, etc. It claims that to accept such foriegn notability you instantly lose your american citizenship.
in a nutshell: you must be a US citizen to run for US president according to the constitution.


the question is: why is he challenging this? if he honestly supports the constitution, then he should be supporting this amendment. But he insists on running for the pres with the title of nobility: DR. Ron Paul.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 311948



That's not what was written.

Read again.

The title of M.D. was used as an analogy in relation to the use of Esquire.

It said nothing about your interpretation
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/19/2007 10:00 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
this is NOT just a weird coincidence.

this means something. this is either something paul has planned for the good of all people and the constitution OR this is our first glimpse into him being a possible fraud and working for the NWO.


we need to contact him! many of us need to write him in regards to this.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/19/2007 10:04 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
That's not what was written.

Read again.

The title of M.D. was used as an analogy in relation to the use of Esquire.

It said nothing about your interpretation
 Quoting: von Doom 314711


you read again:
If any citizen of the United States shall accept, claim, receive or retain, any title of nobility or honour, or shall, without the consent of Congress, accept and retain any present, pension, office or emolument of any kind whatever, from any emperor, king, prince or foreign power, such person shall cease to be a citizen of the United States, and shall be incapable of holding any office of trust or profit under them, or either of them.
von Doom
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10/19/2007 10:06 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
No you read again.

exactly which King, Emperor, Prince, or whomever bestowed upon Paul the title of M.D.?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/19/2007 10:08 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
"Also, Paul is a member of the American Medical Association (AMA) and carries the Foreign Nobility Title of Doctor, designating him as a foreign agent (the same as Esquire for attorneys) working under the authority of the Crown Queen of England. That alone is treason, and he cannot hold public office under the original 13th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution of the Republic."
[link to fourwinds10.com]
Anonymous Coward
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10/19/2007 10:13 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
"Also, Paul is a member of the American Medical Association (AMA) and carries the Foreign Nobility Title of Doctor, designating him as a foreign agent (the same as Esquire for attorneys) working under the authority of the Crown Queen of England. That alone is treason, and he cannot hold public office under the original 13th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution of the Republic."
[link to fourwinds10.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 311948



~boy are you guys desperate~
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/19/2007 10:14 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
bump
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/19/2007 10:17 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
~boy are you guys desperate~
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 102035


listen, i'm just trying to get to the bottom of this.
many truths lay under these stones we are lifting right now. i'm not sure what to believe, no one should be too sure at this moment until we find out more.
lets try to keep an open mind.
this is very serious regardless if a NESARA founder brought this to light.
von Doom
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10/19/2007 10:17 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
A Title of Nobility has to be issued by the Crown, not a University.

I don't give a rat's ass what site you are citing. They are wrong.

Why would Paul be trying to negate his own bid for the Presidency.

Rudy Giuliani, however, has been issued a Title of Nobility by the Crown of England, as he has been knighted, making him ineligible as a Foreign Agent to run for the Presidency of the United States of America.

Doesn't this make much more sense.
V
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10/19/2007 10:18 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
OK Fine.

He's a doctor and can't hold office because of title of foreign nobility.

NOW who are you going to vote for smart as$?

Prey tell which of the other candidates in the field GENUINELY believes and wants to adhere to the rule of law and Constitution?

And while the 'original 13th' may well have been ratified, it has not been recognized as such for nearly 200 years, so....you're going to use that non-recognized fine print to exclude the best candidate.


You shills make me laugh.

V
Anonymous Coward
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10/19/2007 10:19 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
The 13th don't say that anymore, and Dr.Paul has adderessed it before. Just like several other amendments it needs review and investigation.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/19/2007 10:23 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
i am not a shill. i sware on everything i know i am not a shill.
i'm an honest person who is trying to get to the bottom of this.
i have made no final conclusions, and i'll tell you right now i dont want to think paul is a bad guy.
however i will not refuse to read between the lines just because things are complicated.

i am AM, who replied in that message from that fourwinds10 link
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/19/2007 10:24 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
The 13th don't say that anymore, and Dr.Paul has adderessed it before. Just like several other amendments it needs review and investigation.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 314735


is there video? do you have a link?
Anonymous Coward
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10/19/2007 10:25 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
and Rudy has an honorary knighthood, in name only, from what I understand it is not the same. I was thinking of doing an oped on it, and need to do more research, but I don't think it is the same. I would love to see Rudy ousted for that, but not sure if it is possible
Anonymous Coward
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10/19/2007 10:26 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
You may not want to unturn that rock because you are not ready for the answers.

It lies in the american civil war... the government was changed...
von Doom
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10/19/2007 10:36 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
and Rudy has an honorary knighthood, in name only, from what I understand it is not the same. I was thinking of doing an oped on it, and need to do more research, but I don't think it is the same. I would love to see Rudy ousted for that, but not sure if it is possible
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 280540


I'm not absolutely sure on this but Honorary Knighthood is issued to those that are not British citizens, so in essence it is the same thing.

Also, the Constitution forbids Federal Employees only from accepting foreign titles of nobility, which negates this entire thread.

This also means that Sir Rudy still has the right to run for president, so I apologize for my mistake.
Anonymous Coward
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10/19/2007 10:42 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
"....such person shall cease to be a citizen of the United States, and shall be incapable of holding any office of trust or profit under them, or either of them."

citizen of the United States = Officer
Anonymous Coward
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10/19/2007 10:44 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
So why do you have to take an oath to register to vote?

(theres an "oath" box next tothe signature line)
ThePower
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10/19/2007 10:53 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
It seems you're speaking of the forgotten 13th Amendment and not the one ratified in 1865.
Anonymous Coward
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10/19/2007 10:54 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
There was no such thing as the United States when the 13th Amendment came in regardless of which 13th we speak of. The United States came about in 1868 with the 14th Amendment.
Anonymous Coward
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10/19/2007 10:57 PM
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Re: The 13th Amendment forbids Titles of Nobility - Why is DR. Ron Paul silently challending this hidden amendment?
am i missing something? i didn't see a damn thing from, or about RP in the OP. WTF?!?

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