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Who are the Two Witnesses?

 
Scott Hofstee
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11/11/2007 01:22 AM
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Who are the Two Witnesses?
The Two Olive Trees

The Revelation of the Two Witnesses



The “two olive trees” is another name given for the “two witnesses” or the “two anointed ones” that stand before the Lord of the whole earth in Revelation 11 and Zechariah 4



Revelation 11:3-4

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.



Zechariah 4:11-14

11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.



There is great speculation and debate as to who the two witnesses are. The most popular theory is the theory that Moses and Elijah are the two witnesses because they were on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus or Enoch and Elijah, based on the fact that they never died.



The truth is in the scriptures and the Lord laid out the answers in them and in the construction of the temple as He did with Jesus, the Lamb of God. Let’s take a look.



I Kings 6:21-28

21 So Solomon overlaid the house within with pure gold: and he made a partition by the chains of gold before the oracle; and he overlaid it with gold.

22 And the whole house he overlaid with gold, until he had finished all the house: also the whole altar that was by the oracle he overlaid with gold.

23 And within the oracle he made two cherubims of olive tree, each ten cubits high.

24 And five cubits was the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one wing unto the uttermost part of the other were ten cubits.

25 And the other cherub was ten cubits: both the cherubims were of one measure and one size.

26 The height of the one cherub was ten cubits, and so was it of the other cherub.

27 And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house.

28 And he overlaid the cherubims with gold.



Here is the first mention of the “two olive trees” as two cherubims. They were in the temple because of their place in the Kingdom of Heaven, which would at the end come to earth. First, Immanuel had to come, the first born of many brothers.



Romans 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.



Jesus was the firstborn of those here on earth who came from Heaven. The firstborn of those who were with the Father before the foundations of the earth. The word “foreknow” means to have intimate knowledge of beforehand. The Father had intimate knowledge because these brothers like the Lord Jesus were with the Father before their incarnation here on earth. Jesus was over all of Heaven and had to come to earth to suffer as a man in perfect obedience to the Father in order to be given the glory He had with the Father in Heaven here on earth. This is why He was given all authority in Heaven and Earth. He overcame every obstacle that men face and never once sinned. The scriptures clearly declare that the earth is waiting for and longing for the manifestation or revealing of these “sons of God” into the earth.



Romans 8:18-19

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.



So the “two olive trees” will be the “two cherubim” incarnated into earthen vessels as Immanuel was for the 1260 days of His ministry. Their ministry will be 1260 days as well, completing the second half of Daniel’s 70th week.



The scriptures give us further clues that the two olive trees are two cherubim and who they are.



Revelation 11:7-8

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascended out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.



This scripture is important because it gives two clues by the “spiritual” cities it mentions. Sodom is the city where the Lord sent “two angels” to destroy the city with fire.



Genesis 19:1

1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;



Egypt is the where the Lord sent two physical brothers, Moses and Aaron to set the children of Israel free and destroy Egypt.



Exodus 4:29-31

29 And Moses and Aaron went and gathered together all the elders of the children of Israel:

30 And Aaron spake all the words which the LORD had spoken unto Moses, and did the signs in the sight of the people.

31 And the people believed: and when they heard that the LORD had visited the children of Israel, and that he had looked upon their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshipped.



He also refers to it as the “great city”. The great city is referred to later in Revelation as being Babylon, not Jerusalem. Babylon is a “type” of the world and its systems and governments.



Revelation 16:19

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.



So the city they are slain in is never mentioned to be Jerusalem. That is because Jesus was never crucified in Jerusalem according to scripture but outside the city.



Hebrews 13:11-14

11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.



Outside the city was very significant in that it was a type of the entire world or the “great city” or Babylon not Jerusalem. This is why these cities are prefaced by the phrase, “which are spiritually called” Sodom and Egypt.



The two cherubim are included in the construction of the Ark of the Covenant as well, as mentioned in the following passage of scripture.



Hebrews 9:1-5

1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.



Here is Strong’s definition of the word cherubim:

5502 cheroubim

cherubim, two golden figures of living creatures with two wings; they were fastened to the lid of the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies (both at the sacred tabernacle and of Solomon's Temple) in such a manner that their faces were turned toward each other and down toward the lid, which they overshadowed with their expanded wings. Between these figures God was regarded as having fixed His dwelling place.



It was “two angels” announcing the resurrection of Jesus.



John 20:11-14

11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,

12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.

14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.



In Solomon’s temple, on the porch, he also had two pillars made named “Jachin” which means, “He will establish” on the right and “Boaz” which means, “fleetness” on the left. These two pillars are a type of the “two witnesses”. Interesting as well are the promises made to the overcomers in the church of “Philadelphia” a Greek word that means. “brotherly love”, that the Lord would make them to be” pillars in the temple of My God”.



I Kings 7:21

21 And he set up the pillars in the porch of the temple: and he set up the right pillar, and called the name thereof Jachin: and he set up the left pillar, and called the name thereof Boaz.



Revelation 3:7-12

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.



So it is abundantly clear that the two olive trees are two cherubim that will be incarnated into earthen vessels as Jesus was. The scriptures bear this out in type and foreshadow by the mention of the city of Egypt spiritually being spoken of as the place where the “two witnesses” are slain. Egypt is where two physical brothers, Moses and Aaron, were sent as we mentioned before. There is also a type in the “sons of thunder”, James and John who asked to be the two witnesses and who were present at the mount of the transfiguration of Jesus.



Matthew 20:21-23

21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.

22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.



The Lord said that it shall be "given" to those whom it is prepared of my Father. He wasn't saying that it wasn't available to someone. Just not to them.



On the mount of transfiguration the Lord also took with him Peter, James and John (read Matthew 17:1-5). It was there that Jesus met with Moses and Elijah. We are given a prophetic picture of Jesus and the two witnesses when you have the “rock” in Peter and the “sons of thunder” in James and John. Peter is a type of Christ (read Matthew16:15-19) and James and John, two physical brothers, are a type of the “two witnesses” which were mirrored in the appearance of Moses and Elijah on the mount of Jesus’ transfiguration.



The scriptures also point to the specific identity of the cherubim who will come as earthly, physical brothers. They are Michael and Gabriel, the two who were responsible for delivering the revelation of the end of days to the prophet Daniel. Daniel mentions that Michael will “stand up” and in the following verse says that “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake”. Michael and his army will be among those that will awaken. We also see Michael associated with Moses in the book of Jude’s account of the dispute over the body of Moses. It is also Michael and his army of angels, which will have awakened in the dust of the earth, that face the dragon and his angels which are going to awaken in the dust of the earth as well. Notice the war is in the heavens, which is the mind or the “second heaven” and when that battle is done the dragon is cast “into the earth”. He is no longer able to access the minds of God’s “overcomers”. The Kingdom of Heaven will have fully come into the minds of those who were foreknown by the Father and the Son. The dragon will be confined fully to an earthen vessel, no longer able to bring his accusation of the brethren to those who have made ready. But woe to those who dwell in the “earth” which means the carnality of this life, for the dragon will be given free rule over them for 42 months.



Daniel 12:1-2

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.



Jude 1:9

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.



Revelation 12:7-13

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman, which brought forth the man child.



We know that Gabriel was the angel that brought the revelation of the end of days to Daniel but He was also associated with the “spirit of Elijah”. He was the angel that announced the birth of both John “the Baptist” who came in the “spirit and power of Elijah” and as John the Baptist was the forerunner of Jesus, so too was Gabriel the forerunner of Jesus’ appearance into earth, announcing His birth to Mary and Joseph.



Luke 1:13-19

13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.

15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.

19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to show thee these glad tidings.



Luke 1:26-32

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:



Matthew 1:18-25

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.



So from this we see Michael associated with the “spirit of Moses” and Gabriel associated with the “spirit of Elijah” in John the Baptist and his announcing the birth of Jesus. They are the two olive trees of Revelation 11 and Zechariah 4. They are the “two anointed ones”, the “sons of thunder”, the “two witnesses” that stand on the right and left of the Lord Jesus, Immanuel, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. They are here on this earth and will soon fully awaken to all that they were before the foundations of the earth, along with the rest of the Kingdom of God, each in his own order and time.



The kingdom of God has been put into this earth, deposited into those whom were with the Father before the foundations of the earth. Soon many will awaken to everlasting life or everlasting shame and contempt. We are the temple of God, we are the New Jerusalem. The Kingdom that has been in Heaven is about to fully come into the earth. If you do not see with the eyes of the Spirit you will not recognize the Kingdom, this is why the Lord said what He did to the church at Laodicea.



Revelation 3:18

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.



Daniel 12:2-3

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.



1 Corinthians 15:22-25

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.



Hebrews 12:22-23

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
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Anonymous Coward
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11/11/2007 01:30 AM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
:swimmer1:
:Potter:
:OnlyOne!::saveAlife:
:prodigal::guldfish:
Anonymous Coward
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11/11/2007 01:32 AM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
:FisheroMen:
Anonymous Coward
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11/11/2007 01:32 AM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
the old and new testaments. They used to be kept wrapped in sackcloth.
Anonymous Coward
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11/11/2007 01:43 AM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
Malachi 4:5

"See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes.

------------

The two witnesses are no bodies, nothings, unknown to any one.

Elijah is with both of them. They are in the power and Spirit of Elijah.
Scott Hofstee (OP)

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11/11/2007 01:46 AM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
LOL! I see the stupid competition of 11/11 has begun...
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Anonymous Coward
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11/11/2007 01:57 AM
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LOL! I see the stupid competition of 11/11 has begun...
 Quoting: Scott Hofstee


After your post, that made gone with the wind seem like a short story, you win.

i have never seen so many words used to say nothing.
Anonymous Coward
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11/11/2007 02:01 AM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
Moses and Elijah
Anonymous Coward
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11/11/2007 09:09 AM
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LOL! I see the stupid competition of 11/11 has begun...
 Quoting: Scott Hofstee

chuckle
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11/11/2007 09:15 AM
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Let the Games Begin!

[link to www.tntt.org]

NOVEMBER 11
ST. MARTIN OF TOURS

This soldier saint lived in the fourth century. He joined the Roman army in Italy when he was only fifteen. Although his parents were pagans, he began to study the Christian religion. Those who study the Christian religion are called catechumens until they are baptized.
One very cold winter day, Martin and his companions came upon a beggar at the gate of the city of Amiens. The man's only clothes were nothing but rags and he was shaking with cold. The other solders passed by him, but Martin felt that it was up to him to help the beggar. Having nothing with him, he drew his sword and cut his long cloak in half. Some laughed at his funny appearance as he gave one half to the beggar. Others felt ashamed of their own selfishness. That night, Jesus appeared to Martin. He was wearing the half of the cloak that Martin had given away.
"Martin, still a catechumen, has covered me with this garment," Jesus said. Right after this wonderful event, St. Martin went to be baptized.
A few years later, the saint left the army. He became a disciple of St. Hilary, the bishop of Poitiers, France. Because of his strong opposition to the Arian heretics in various cities, Martin had to go into exile. But he was happy to live in the wilderness with other monks. When the people of Tours asked for him as their bishop, he refused. The people would not give up, however. They got him to come to the city to visit a sick person. Once he was there, they took him to the church. As bishop of Tours, St. Martin did all he could to rid France of paganism. He prayed, he worked, he preached everywhere.
Our Lord let Martin know when his death was near. As soon as his followers heard of it, they began to weep. They begged him not to leave them. So the saint prayed: "Lord, if your people need me yet, I will not refuse the work. Your will be done." He was still laboring for the Divine Master in a far-off part of his diocese when death finally came in 397. St. Martin's tomb became one of the most famous shrines in al of Europe.

It is so easy to be concerned about our own interests. But, like Martin, we want to be aware of the needs of others too. We can ask St. martin to share with us his generosity.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/11/2007 09:52 AM
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LOL! I see the stupid competition of 11/11 has begun...


After your post, that made gone with the wind seem like a short story, you win.

i have never seen so many words used to say nothing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 324696


It was only long winded if you have trouble reading...don't feel bad its not a sin. ;-)
Anonymous Coward
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11/11/2007 10:04 AM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
:TheReturn::prodigal:
CUP
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11/11/2007 10:10 AM
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Hmmm....

Woman with stars above head...what do you suppose is going on here?

[link to www.youtube.com]

21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.

22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.



The Lord said that it shall be "given" to those whom it is prepared of my Father. He wasn't saying that it wasn't available to someone. Just not to them.


[link to brandautopsy.typepad.com]

PLEASE DISCUSS AMOUNGST YOURSELVES!
Anonymous Coward
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11/11/2007 10:20 AM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
jesus and his real wife.
Anonymous Coward
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11/11/2007 11:14 AM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
Hmmm....

Woman with stars above head...what do you suppose is going on here?

[link to www.youtube.com]

21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.

22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.



The Lord said that it shall be "given" to those whom it is prepared of my Father. He wasn't saying that it wasn't available to someone. Just not to them.


[link to brandautopsy.typepad.com]

PLEASE DISCUSS AMOUNGST YOURSELVES!
 Quoting: CUP 324507

they hate the woman with the 12 stars. they have been conditioned to. they hate Jesus's wife, they do not want the marriage to take place. thru all time they have tried to delete her. the whore that rides the beast has tried to replace her. but it will not be so. tho her body and soul is shredded from fighting the war, she prevails. her enemies will be confronted with kali, and there will be no mercy.
Spirit of LIES
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11/11/2007 11:15 AM
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All men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

The wages of sin is death.

if A + B = C and C - A = B then C - B must = A

If all men have sinned and the wages of sin is death, then all men must (at some point) face death.

The bible speaks of two men who have not, as of yet, experienced a physical death. In other words, they have not paid the price for their sin - yet.

These two men are Enoch and Elijah.

If God does not lie - and he does not, then these two men MUST, at some point, pay for their sinful nature through death.

Moses died and his body was buried - he was 120 when he DIED.

The olive trees are the same as the two lampstands and the bible is clear that these two things are:
1.) The Hebraic people, the children of Israel.
2.) The true church, those who believe in Jesus Christ.

Enoch was a gentile, born before Jacob, who became Israel.
Elijah was a jew and a prophet.

Malachi promised that Elijah would return, it is sad he did not mention the other witness.

God made a covenant with the jews
Jesus made a covenant with the gentiles.

These two are the two witnesses to the world of the glory of God.
Daniel
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11/11/2007 11:30 AM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
Peace be with you x


Firstly id like to thank you for posting this VERY useful information M'Lord


secondly i'd like to offer up a veiled answer that to the spiritually adept will reveal much

;)


"Parable of the arrow smeared thickly with poison:

It is as if a man had been wounded by an arrow thickly smeared with poison, and his friends and kinsmen were to get a surgeon to heal him, and he were to say, I will not have this arrow pulled out until I know by what man I was wounded, whether he is of the warrior caste, or a brahmin, or of the agricultural, or the lowest caste. Or if he were to say, I will not have this arrow pulled out until I know of what name of family the man is -- or whether he is tall, or short or of middle height ... Before knowing all this, the man would die.

Similarly, it is not on the view that the world is eternal, that it is finite, that body and soul are distinct, or that the Buddha exists after death that a religious life depends. Whether these views or their opposite are held, there is still rebirth, there is old age, there is death, and grief, lamentation, suffering, sorrow, and despair.... I have not spoken to these views because they do not conduce to an absence of passion, to tranquility, and Nirvana. And what have I explained? Suffering have I explained, the cause of suffering, the destruction of suffering, and the path that leads to the destruction of suffering have I explained. For this is useful."

From The Seeker's Glossary of Buddhism, edited by Minh Thanh and P.D. Leigh




Is there anything else you'd like to know?


Daniel
Joseph
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11/11/2007 11:39 AM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
Has anyone ever found the Grave of JOHN ?

Did he die?

Elijah and John ?

You know what some of the people think, and you know what Jesus said. Now then there are many wittinesses, but GOD has TWO and they are to lay in the streets unburied, for 3 days.

These therefore must be real men, and seeing that Our teachers , are often liars, we must then trust the Word, which God has preserved for these last days.

I do not know, and I just think I am right.

But clearly we who are alive when iy happens will know the truth, unless, I totally do not understand. But I stick to THE WORD !
Anonymous Coward
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11/11/2007 11:41 AM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
oh and all the sayings work on at least 3 levels


the other two witnesses are your eyes and ears


;)


the day you realise


your eyes are connected to your heart


what you have in your heart you see in this world


your seeing yourself everywhere you go, good and bad


you can only see in others whats inside you


thats the eyes bit


the ears are the other witness when you realise youve only ever spoken about yourself


after all, your only seeing yourself in others


so your only talking about yourself


and only ever have


all the good and bad your parents saw in you, was in them


'the sins of the father shall fall on the son'


because currently everyone in the world is 'blind'


they imagine they are seeing good and bad in others


reality says they are just projecting their own heart




want an example?


a man cheats on his wife, from then on, his wife 'looks' like a bit of a cheat, like him, he isnt seeing his wifes character, hes veiwing his


she cant see the cheat in him because she doesnt have it in her


we only see others as we see ourselves


if we want a world full of fantastic people, BE a fantastic person



unfortunately for everyone this wou mean getting rid of the people around them who reinforce the lie that they are fantastic already


thats poison



peace be with you brother


Daniel x
Joseph
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11/11/2007 11:46 AM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
John 21

23 This saying therefore went forth among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, that he should not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee?


24 This is the disciple that beareth witness of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his witness is true.
25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that should be written.


Truly, I have never spent much time on this subject, but what I do know is, is that, What-ever, Main Stream, saids, is likely the wrong choice !
Lotus Feet

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11/11/2007 12:21 PM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
"her body and soul is shredded from fighting the war, she prevails. her enemies will be confronted with kali, and there will be no mercy."

Sadly, this is true.
i love satan
Redheaded Stepchild

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11/11/2007 12:23 PM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
MIRA A and MIRA B?

Just askin'...
"Until you are willing to organize your friends and neighbors and literally shut down cities - drive at 5mph through the streets of major cities on the freeway and stop commerce, refuse to show up for work, refuse to borrow and spend more than you make, show up in Washington DC with a million of your neighbors and literally shut down The Capitol you WILL be bent over the table on a daily basis." Karl Denninger

Don't blame me; I voted for Ron Paul.


Silence is consent.
Scott Hofstee (OP)
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11/11/2007 12:43 PM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
The two witnesses are the two angels that have been on the right and left of Immanuel from their beginning. Miykael and Gabriel. That is why they are depicted on the ark, their construction is out of olive trees and wrapped in gold. It has been their destiny as all those who preexisted with God and His son Immanuel, to come to earth and in doing so bring the heavenly government to earth.

They must be born of a woman (born of water) as was Messiah, overcome this life, as did Messiah. It is a prerequisite to being given authority over people in the Kingdom. Messiah could not rule here on earth until he had been tried in all ways here on earth as those who He was sent to die for.
Taojones

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11/11/2007 01:07 PM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
Moses and Elijah
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 299617


iamwith
--
Apparently, the name "Los Angeles" is an abbreviated version of "El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles de Porciúncula", roughly translated as:

"The Gaping Maw Feeding Upon Lost Souls and Giving Birth to Broken Dreams."
Anonymous Coward
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11/11/2007 01:25 PM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
MIRA A and MIRA B?

Just askin'...
 Quoting: Redheaded Stepchild


You mean the puppy twins?
Anonymous Coward
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11/11/2007 01:31 PM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
LOL! I see the stupid competition of 11/11 has begun...
 Quoting: Scott Hofstee



Bitch, I am The One.



Respect mah author-eh-tay.
Scott Hofstee (OP)

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11/11/2007 01:36 PM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
LOL! I see the stupid competition of 11/11 has begun...



Bitch, I am The One.



Respect mah author-eh-tay.

 Quoting: King Neptune


KIng you are gonna win this thing if it kills you...LOL! And it just might with all this obviously brilliant competition.
To visit our website or message board, [link to thedaysofthunder.com]
Anonymous Coward
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11/11/2007 01:51 PM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
was in church this morning. we've recently been going there
to observe.

so today we observed them as they pass the money basket which
is done just prior to offering the holy communion. once the
money is recieved which in earlier times was in the forms of coins.
however in present time has been replaced much with checks and paper
money.

however in earlier times it was coins and this is a
very important clue.

so they pass the money basket while the priest prepares
the holy communion. once the money is recieved they offer
holy communion. the holy communion is circular
like that of a coin and it is then given to the people.

can you not see/feel/hear the signifigance to this and how
judas who had the money bag and once betraying jesus those
coins were thrown down.



mary and jesus represent the two witnesses yet they
are Truly one.

jesus on the cross is displayed with a sunken abdomen.
this is representing the gutting of the ghost within.
interesting that mary was pregant with the holy spirit
and jesus appears to be gutted. the depiction of the beard
is really her blood soaked hair stuck to the face.

so we do not take the offering of their holy communion.
instead we pray for protection and shielding from the one true
God who created us and loves us. praying for his will for us to
be preserved and to continue guiding us according to that will
and to please keep us whole and One.

today we took the hand of the other and walked out. right hand
held two fingers(index and middle finger) on the left and we
walked out while they offered the holy communion to the masses.

we hope they'll see/feel the Truth but it has to be their own need
to deeply want to be closer to God. so we hope with compassion
and love that they will somehow see/feel/hear in unison. we will be
back again at church next week in the living vessel if it be
according to God's will that we still be here at that time in the living
vessel. all we have in the vessel is today and we pray to God to be
useful in a compassionate loving way.



today as all this was in our vision the priest was sweating
a lot and had to keep wiping his face and forehead with a cloth. he kept
making eye contact with us every so often but then seemed uncomfortable
and would then look away.


the church. what they feed can be bad fruit
because they are not honest with that which they simulate upon feeding
to all those people. the people like sheep go and take it and give that
priest the job as mediator between them and God.
Anonymous Coward
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11/11/2007 01:52 PM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
Has anyone ever found the Grave of JOHN ?

Did he die?

Elijah and John ?

You know what some of the people think, and you know what Jesus said. Now then there are many wittinesses, but GOD has TWO and they are to lay in the streets unburied, for 3 days.

These therefore must be real men, and seeing that Our teachers , are often liars, we must then trust the Word, which God has preserved for these last days.

I do not know, and I just think I am right.

But clearly we who are alive when iy happens will know the truth, unless, I totally do not understand. But I stick to THE WORD !
 Quoting: Joseph 291316


History of Christian Martyrs to the First General Persecutions Under Nero Christ our Savior, in the Gospel of St. Matthew, hearing the confession of Simon Peter, who, first of all other, openly acknowledged Him to be the Son of God, and perceiving the secret hand of His Father therein, called him (alluding to his name) a rock, upon which rock He would build His Church so strong that the gates of hell should not prevail against it. In which words three things are to be noted: First, that Christ will have a Church in this world. Secondly, that the same Church should mightily be impugned, not only by the world, but also by the uttermost strength and powers of all hell. And, thirdly, that the same Church, notwithstanding the uttermost of the devil and all his malice, should continue.

Which prophecy of Christ we see wonderfully to be verified, insomuch that the whole course of the Church to this day may seem nothing else but a verifying of the said prophecy. First, that Christ hath set up a Church, needeth no declaration. Secondly, what force of princes, kings, monarchs, governors, and rulers of this world, with their subjects, publicly and privately, with all their strength and cunning, have bent themselves against this Church! And, thirdly, how the said Church, all this notwithstanding, hath yet endured and holden its own! What storms and tempests it hath overpast, wondrous it is to behold: for the more evident declaration whereof, I have addressed this present history, to the end, first, that the wonderful works of God in His Church might appear to His glory; also that, the continuance and proceedings of the Church, from time to time, being set forth, more knowledge and experience may redound thereby, to the profit of the reader and edification of Christian faith.

As it is not our business to enlarge upon our Savior's history, either before or after His crucifixion, we shall only find it necessary to remind our readers of the discomfiture of the Jews by His subsequent resurrection. Although one apostle had betrayed Him; although another had denied Him, under the solemn sanction of an oath; and although the rest had forsaken Him, unless we may except "the disciple who was known unto the high-priest"; the history of His resurrection gave a new direction to all their hearts, and, after the mission of the Holy Spirit, imparted new confidence to their minds. The powers with which they were endued emboldened them to proclaim His name, to the confusion of the Jewish rulers, and the astonishment of Gentile proselytes.

St. Stephen
St. Stephen suffered the next in order. His death was occasioned by the faithful manner in which he preached the Gospel to the betrayers and murderers of Christ. To such a degree of madness were they excited, that they cast him out of the city and stoned him to death. The time when he suffered is generally supposed to have been at the Passover which succeeded to that of our Lord's crucifixion, and to the era of his ascension, in the following spring.
Upon this a great persecution was raised against all who professed their belief in Christ as the Messiah, or as a prophet. We are immediately told by St. Luke, that "there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem;" and that "they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles."

About two thousand Christians, with Nicanor, one of the seven deacons, suffered martyrdom during the "persecution that arose about Stephen."

James the Great
The next martyr we meet with, according to St. Luke, in the History of the Apostles' Acts, was James the son of Zebedee, the elder brother of John, and a relative of our Lord; for his mother Salome was cousin-german to the Virgin Mary. It was not until ten years after the death of Stephen that the second martyrdom took place; for no sooner had Herod Agrippa been appointed governor of Judea, than, with a view to ingratiate himself with them, he raised a sharp persecution against the Christians, and determined to make an effectual blow, by striking at their leaders. The account given us by an eminent primitive writer, Clemens Alexandrinus, ought not to be overlooked; that, as James was led to the place of martyrdom, his accuser was brought to repent of his conduct by the apostle's extraordinary courage and undauntedness, and fell down at his feet to request his pardon, professing himself a Christian, and resolving that James should not receive the crown of martyrdom alone. Hence they were both beheaded at the same time. Thus did the first apostolic martyr cheerfully and resolutely receive that cup, which he had told our Savior he was ready to drink. Timon and Parmenas suffered martyrdom about the same time; the one at Philippi, and the other in Macedonia. These events took place A.D. 44.

Philip
Was born at Bethsaida, in Galilee and was first called by the name of "disciple." He labored diligently in Upper Asia, and suffered martyrdom at Heliopolis, in Phrygia. He was scourged, thrown into prison, and afterwards crucified, A.D. 54.

Matthew
Whose occupation was that of a toll-gatherer, was born at Nazareth. He wrote his gospel in Hebrew, which was afterwards translated into Greek by James the Less. The scene of his labors was Parthia, and Ethiopia, in which latter country he suffered martyrdom, being slain with a halberd in the city of Nadabah, A.D. 60.

James the Less
Is supposed by some to have been the brother of our Lord, by a former wife of Joseph. This is very doubtful, and accords too much with the Catholic superstition, that Mary never had any other children except our Savior. He was elected to the oversight of the churches of Jerusalem; and was the author of the Epistle ascribed to James in the sacred canon. At the age of ninety-four he was beat and stoned by the Jews; and finally had his brains dashed out with a fuller's club.

Matthias
Of whom less is known than of most of the other disciples, was elected to fill the vacant place of Judas. He was stoned at Jerusalem and then beheaded.

Andrew
Was the brother of Peter. He preached the gospel to many Asiatic nations; but on his arrival at Edessa he was taken and crucified on a cross, the two ends of which were fixed transversely in the ground. Hence the derivation of the term, St. Andrew's Cross.

St. Mark
Was born of Jewish parents of the tribe of Levi. He is supposed to have been converted to Christianity by Peter, whom he served as an amanuensis, and under whose inspection he wrote his Gospel in the Greek language. Mark was dragged to pieces by the people of Alexandria, at the great solemnity of Serapis their idol, ending his life under their merciless hands.

Peter
Among many other saints, the blessed apostle Peter was condemned to death, and crucified, as some do write, at Rome; albeit some others, and not without cause, do doubt thereof. Hegesippus saith that Nero sought matter against Peter to put him to death; which, when the people perceived, they entreated Peter with much ado that he would fly the city. Peter, through their importunity at length persuaded, prepared himself to avoid. But, coming to the gate, he saw the Lord Christ come to meet him, to whom he, worshipping, said, "Lord, whither dost Thou go?" To whom He answered and said, "I am come again to be crucified." By this, Peter, perceiving his suffering to be understood, returned into the city. Jerome saith that he was crucified, his head being down and his feet upward, himself so requiring, because he was (he said) unworthy to be crucified after the same form and manner as the Lord was.

Paul
Paul, the apostle, who before was called Saul, after his great travail and unspeakable labors in promoting the Gospel of Christ, suffered also in this first persecution under Nero. Abdias, declareth that under his execution Nero sent two of his esquires, Ferega and Parthemius, to bring him word of his death. They, coming to Paul instructing the people, desired him to pray for them, that they might believe; who told them that shortly after they should believe and be baptized at His sepulcher. This done, the soldiers came and led him out of the city to the place of execution, where he, after his prayers made, gave his neck to the sword.

Jude
The brother of James, was commonly called Thaddeus. He was crucified at Edessa, A.D. 72.

Bartholomew
Preached in several countries, and having translated the Gospel of Matthew into the language of India, he propagated it in that country. He was at length cruelly beaten and then crucified by the impatient idolaters.

Thomas
Called Didymus, preached the Gospel in Parthia and India, where exciting the rage of the pagan priests, he was martyred by being thrust through with a spear.

Luke
The evangelist, was the author of the Gospel which goes under his name. He traveled with Paul through various countries, and is supposed to have been hanged on an olive tree, by the idolatrous priests of Greece.

Simon
Surnamed Zelotes, preached the Gospel in Mauritania, Africa, and even in Britain, in which latter country he was crucified, A.D. 74.

John
The "beloved disciple," was brother to James the Great. The churches of Smyrna, Pergamos, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea, and Thyatira, were founded by him. From Ephesus he was ordered to be sent to Rome, where it is affirmed he was cast into a cauldron of boiling oil. He escaped by miracle, without injury. Domitian afterwards banished him to the Isle of Patmos, where he wrote the Book of Revelation. Nerva, the successor of Domitian, recalled him. He was the only apostle who escaped a violent death.

John was one of the sons of Zebedee (a fisherman of Galilee) and his mother's name was Salome (Salome is believed to be a sister of Jesus' mother, Mary). John, along with his brother (the apostle James) and the apostles Peter and his brother Andrew , were all partners in a fishing business prior to their call by Jesus to follow Him. Zebedee

was also a partner in the business.

It is said that John owned a home in Jerusalem and that it is possible that the interview Nicodemus had with Jesus was held there.

The apostle John rose to a position of influence within world-wide Christianity and shortly before the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD, he moved to Ephesus. He became the pastor of the church in Ephesus and had a special relationship to other churches in the area, as we know from the letters to the Seven Churches in Asia, in the book of Revelation.

John's brother, James, was the first of the apostles to die, where John, on the other hand, was the last. All of the apostles met a violent death, however, John died peacefully in Ephesus, at an advanced age, around the year 100 AD.

There is a church tradition, which says, that while John was living in Ephesus, John had with him Mary, the mother of Jesus, for a few years.

While in Ephesus, by order of the Roman emperor Domitian, John was exiled to an island called Patmos. In what is known as the cave of the Apocalypse (located on this island), the sacred text of the book of Revelation was given to the apostle John by Jesus (it is here that John recorded what is written in the New Testament book of Revelation.) Other New Testament books accredited to John are the Gospel of John, along with 1st, 2nd and 3rd John.

When he was released from exile, he returned to Ephesus and lived till the time of the Roman emperor Trajan. It is said that John, "Founded and built churches throughout all Asia, and worn out by old age, died in the sixty-eight year after our Lord's passion and was buried near the same city (Ephesus)."

There is a church tradition, which says, that when John was evidently an old man in Ephesus, he had to be carried to the church in the arms of his disciples. At these meetings, he was accustomed to say no more than, "Little children, love one another!" After a time, the disciples wearied at always hearing the same words, asked, "Master, why do you always say this?" "It is the Lord's command," was his reply. "And if this alone be done, it is enough!"

There is, also, a tradition which says that John was in Rome for a time.

Barnabas
Was of Cyprus, but of Jewish descent, his death is supposed to have taken place about A.D. 73.
And yet, notwithstanding all these continual persecutions and horrible punishments, the Church daily increased, deeply rooted in the doctrine of the apostles and of men apostolical, and watered plentously with the blood of saints.
PACNWguy

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11/11/2007 01:54 PM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
Hannity and Colmes
OBAMA - THE FASTEST FAILED PRESIDENT IN AMERICAN HISTORY

"I inherated and I am Great!"
Anonymous Coward
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United Kingdom
11/11/2007 01:58 PM
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Re: Who are the Two Witnesses?
your eyes


your ears



on that day ....


Daniel x

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