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US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN

 
PACNWguy
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11/15/2007 12:47 PM
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US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
More service men died during the 80's than during the Iraq war.

From the Congressional Research Service;

[link to sweetness-light.com]


ana
OBAMA - THE FASTEST FAILED PRESIDENT IN AMERICAN HISTORY

"I inherated and I am Great!"
Sinanju
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11/15/2007 12:49 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
The vast majority of single battles in human history have had more causalities then the US military during BOTH Gulf Wars. Of course, I have been saying this for years.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2007 12:54 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
More service men died during the 80's than during the Iraq war.

From the Congressional Research Service;

[link to sweetness-light.com]


ana
 Quoting: PACNWguy



more died in the 80's....

that's just some awsome logic you got there. PACNWguy, you are holding back evolution. please get out of our way.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2007 12:56 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
So what you're saying is that the woman whose husband was decapitated in Iraq should be comforted knowing that statistically speaking, her husband's death is irrelevant? You are an asshole.
Sinanju
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11/15/2007 12:57 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
So what you're saying is that the woman whose husband was decapitated in Iraq should be comforted knowing that statistically speaking, her husband's death is irrelevant? You are an asshole.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 204901


>> I think he was a civilian.
Dervish

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11/15/2007 12:57 PM

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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
Do you count contractors?
[link to www.davidphinney.com]

Hell if we are willing to spend another trillion we could probably have KBR sub contract the war for the USA. The troops could all come home, and we can then just call Iraq a labor dispute.

:)
I know enough to know that I know nothing
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2007 12:58 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
I guess that justifies the 1 million Iraqi civillian deaths. I mean if someone just came over to America and killed 1 million people brutally itd be just fine... NOT
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2007 01:01 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
WHAT SERENDIPITY-

November 15, 2007
America suffers an epidemic of suicides among traumatised army veterans

At least 6,256 US veterans took their lives in 2005, at an average of 17 a day, according to figures broadcast last night. Former servicemen are more than twice as likely than the rest of the population to commit suicide.

Such statistics compare to the total of 3,863 American military deaths in Iraq since the invasion in 2003 - an average of 2.4 a day, according to the website ICasualties.org.

The rate of suicides among veterans prompted claims that the US was suffering from a “mental health epidemic” – often linked to post-traumatic stress.

[link to timesonline.co.uk]
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2007 01:01 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
Suicide Epidemic Among Veterans

A CBS News Investigation Uncovers A Suicide Rate For Veterans Twice That Of Other Americans

Nov. 13, 2007

"They are the casualties of wars you don’t often hear about - soldiers who die of self-inflicted wounds. Little is known about the true scope of suicides among those who have served in the military.

But a five-month CBS News investigation discovered data that shows a startling rate of suicide, what some call a hidden epidemic, Chief Investigative Reporter Armen Keteyian reports exclusively.

“I just felt like this silent scream inside of me,” said Jessica Harrell, the sister of a soldier who took his own life.

"I opened up the door and there he was," recalled Mike Bowman, the father of an Army reservist.

"I saw the hose double looped around his neck,” said Kevin Lucey, another military father.

"He was gone,” said Mia Sagahon, whose soldier boyfriend committed suicide.

Keteyian spoke with the families of five former soldiers who each served in Iraq - only to die battling an enemy they could not conquer. Their loved ones are now speaking out in their names.

They survived the hell that's Iraq and then they come home only to lose their life.

Twenty-three-year-old Marine Reservist Jeff Lucey hanged himself with a garden hose in the cellar of this parents’ home - where his father, Kevin, found him.

"There's a crisis going on and people are just turning the other way,” Kevin Lucey said.

Kim and Mike Bowman’s son Tim was an Army reservist who patrolled one of the most dangerous places in Baghdad, known as Airport Road.

"His eyes when he came back were just dead. The light wasn't there anymore," Kim Bowman said.

Eight months later, on Thanksgiving Day, Tim shot himself. He was 23.

Diana Henderson’s son, Derek, served three tours of duty in Iraq. He died jumping off a bridge at 27.

"Going to that morgue and seeing my baby ... my life will never be the same," she said.

Beyond the individual loss, it turns out little information exists about how widespread suicides are among these who have served in the military. There have been some studies, but no one has ever counted the numbers nationwide.

"Nobody wants to tally it up in the form of a government total," Bowman said.

Why do the families think that is?

"Because they don't want the true numbers of casualties to really be known," Lucey said.

Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash., is a member of the Veterans Affairs Committee.

"If you're just looking at the overall number of veterans themselves who've committed suicide, we have not been able to get the numbers,” Murray said.

-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------


CBS News’ investigative unit wanted the numbers, so it submitted a Freedom of Information Act request to the Department of Defense asking for the numbers of suicides among all service members for the past 12 years.

Four months later, they sent CBS News a document, showing that between 1995 and 2007, there were almost 2,200 suicides. That’s 188 last year alone. But these numbers included only “active duty” soldiers.

CBS News went to the Department of Veterans Affairs, where Dr. Ira Katz is head of mental health.

"There is no epidemic in suicide in the VA, but suicide is a major problem," he said.

Why hasn't the VA done a national study seeking national data on how many veterans have committed suicide in this country?

"That research is ongoing,” he said.

So CBS News did an investigation - asking all 50 states for their suicide data, based on death records, for veterans and non-veterans, dating back to 1995. Forty-five states sent what turned out to be a mountain of information.

And what it revealed was stunning.

In 2005, for example, in just those 45 states, there were at least 6,256 suicides among those who served in the armed forces. That’s 120 each and every week, in just one year.

Dr. Steve Rathbun is the acting head of the Epidemiology and Biostatistics Department at the University of Georgia. CBS News asked him to run a detailed analysis of the raw numbers that we obtained from state authorities for 2004 and 2005.

It found that veterans were more than twice as likely to commit suicide in 2005 than non-vets. (Veterans committed suicide at the rate of between 18.7 to 20.8 per 100,000, compared to other Americans, who did so at the rate of 8.9 per 100,000.)

One age group stood out. Veterans aged 20 through 24, those who have served during the war on terror. They had the highest suicide rate among all veterans, estimated between two and four times higher than civilians the same age. (The suicide rate for non-veterans is 8.3 per 100,000, while the rate for veterans was found to be between 22.9 and 31.9 per 100,000.)

"Wow! Those are devastating," said Paul Sullivan, a former VA analyst who is now an advocate for veterans rights from the group Veterans For Common Sense.

-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------


"Those numbers clearly show an epidemic of mental health problems," he said.

“We are determined to decrease veteran suicides," Dr. Katz said.

“One hundred and twenty a week. Is that a problem?” Keteyian asked.

“You bet it’s a problem,” he said.

Is it an epidemic?

“Suicide in America is an epidemic, and that includes veterans,” Katz said.

Sen. Murray said the numbers CBS News uncovered are significant: “These statistics tell me we've really failed people that served our country."

Do these numbers serve as a wake-up call for this country?

“If these numbers don't wake up this country, nothing will,” she said. “We each have a responsibility to the men and women who serve us aren't lost when they come home."


-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------

An update: The chairman of the Senate Veterans' Affairs Committee, Sen. Daniel Akaka, D-Hawaii, responded to the CBS News story Tuesday.

“The report that the rate of suicide among veterans is double that of the general population is deeply troubling and simply unacceptable. I am especially concerned that so many young veterans appear to be taking their own lives. For too many veterans, returning home from battle does not bring an end to conflict. There is no question that action is needed."

[link to www.cbsnews.com]
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2007 01:02 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
The bloodiest year of the war does not even get mentioned in the article-2007
Sinanju
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11/15/2007 01:02 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
I guess that justifies the 1 million Iraqi civillian deaths. I mean if someone just came over to America and killed 1 million people brutally itd be just fine... NOT
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 310745


>>Got a link for that ridiculous figure?
von Doom
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11/15/2007 01:06 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
Exactly which country are we at war against?
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2007 01:07 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
I live right mext to a military base.Suicides are much more common this year.
Sinanju
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11/15/2007 01:08 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
Exactly which country are we at war against?
 Quoting: von Doom 326813


>>None... so why are we arguing?
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2007 01:11 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
[link to www.antiwar.com]

I guess that justifies the 1 million Iraqi civillian deaths. I mean if someone just came over to America and killed 1 million people brutally itd be just fine... NOT


>>Got a link for that ridiculous figure?
 Quoting: Sinanju 326291
von Doom
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11/15/2007 01:12 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
Exactly which country are we at war against?


>>None... so why are we arguing?
 Quoting: Sinanju 326291


Not arguing.

If we are not at war with another country then military deaths should be a peace time levels.

Right?
Sinanju
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11/15/2007 01:37 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
"Not arguing.

If we are not at war with another country then military deaths should be a peace time levels.

Right?"

>>Exactly! Being that we are BELOW peacetime levels... we need to get the death machine cranked up! We are falling behind!
Sinanju
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11/15/2007 01:37 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
[link to www.antiwar.com]



I guess that justifies the 1 million Iraqi civillian deaths. I mean if someone just came over to America and killed 1 million people brutally itd be just fine... NOT


>>Got a link for that ridiculous figure?

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 310745


>> HA! A credible, non-ridiculous link, please. You might as well be quoting the ONION.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2007 01:42 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
[link to www.cnn.com]

It's from the Lancet, a prestigious journal of medicine and the calculations are proven by actuarials to be within acceptable levels of variation.

The number excludes military deaths and an additional year of warfare, so 1 million would look to be pretty close to accurate, if not a bit low.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2007 01:42 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
We are at peace stupid. Invading a helpless country with pre-oppressed people isn't a war, it's an occupation.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2007 01:44 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
Iraqi's and afgghans know that their lives are considered as being cheap.This war has been sanitized by promoters of it.No one sees the soldiers coming back in coffins.The last person you can believe is a promoter of the death and detruction.Soldiers will be paying the price for many years to come .
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2007 01:44 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
[link to www.cnn.com]

It's from the Lancet, a prestigious journal of medicine and the calculations are proven by actuarials to be within acceptable levels of variation.

The number excludes military deaths and an additional year of warfare, so 1 million would look to be pretty close to accurate, if not a bit low.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5174

plus some 4 million refugees isn't it
Sinanju
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11/15/2007 01:46 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
[link to www.cnn.com]

It's from the Lancet, a prestigious journal of medicine and the calculations are proven by actuarials to be within acceptable levels of variation.

The number excludes military deaths and an additional year of warfare, so 1 million would look to be pretty close to accurate, if not a bit low.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5174



>>Debunked well over a year ago. Try again.
ino
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11/15/2007 01:46 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
more lies fudgepacker. the truth is there is 5 times the amount killed in iraq than reported.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2007 01:48 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
[link to www.cnn.com]

It's from the Lancet, a prestigious journal of medicine and the calculations are proven by actuarials to be within acceptable levels of variation.

The number excludes military deaths and an additional year of warfare, so 1 million would look to be pretty close to accurate, if not a bit low.

plus some 4 million refugees isn't it
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 326762

...coming soon to a state near you
Little Star

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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
Suicide Epidemic Among Veterans

A CBS News Investigation Uncovers A Suicide Rate For Veterans Twice That Of Other Americans

Nov. 13, 2007

"They are the casualties of wars you don’t often hear about - soldiers who die of self-inflicted wounds. Little is known about the true scope of suicides among those who have served in the military.

But a five-month CBS News investigation discovered data that shows a startling rate of suicide, what some call a hidden epidemic, Chief Investigative Reporter Armen Keteyian reports exclusively.

“I just felt like this silent scream inside of me,” said Jessica Harrell, the sister of a soldier who took his own life.

"I opened up the door and there he was," recalled Mike Bowman, the father of an Army reservist.

"I saw the hose double looped around his neck,” said Kevin Lucey, another military father.

"He was gone,” said Mia Sagahon, whose soldier boyfriend committed suicide.

Keteyian spoke with the families of five former soldiers who each served in Iraq - only to die battling an enemy they could not conquer. Their loved ones are now speaking out in their names.

They survived the hell that's Iraq and then they come home only to lose their life.

Twenty-three-year-old Marine Reservist Jeff Lucey hanged himself with a garden hose in the cellar of this parents’ home - where his father, Kevin, found him.

"There's a crisis going on and people are just turning the other way,” Kevin Lucey said.

Kim and Mike Bowman’s son Tim was an Army reservist who patrolled one of the most dangerous places in Baghdad, known as Airport Road.

"His eyes when he came back were just dead. The light wasn't there anymore," Kim Bowman said.

Eight months later, on Thanksgiving Day, Tim shot himself. He was 23.

Diana Henderson’s son, Derek, served three tours of duty in Iraq. He died jumping off a bridge at 27.

"Going to that morgue and seeing my baby ... my life will never be the same," she said.

Beyond the individual loss, it turns out little information exists about how widespread suicides are among these who have served in the military. There have been some studies, but no one has ever counted the numbers nationwide.

"Nobody wants to tally it up in the form of a government total," Bowman said.

Why do the families think that is?

"Because they don't want the true numbers of casualties to really be known," Lucey said.

Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash., is a member of the Veterans Affairs Committee.

"If you're just looking at the overall number of veterans themselves who've committed suicide, we have not been able to get the numbers,” Murray said.

-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------


CBS News’ investigative unit wanted the numbers, so it submitted a Freedom of Information Act request to the Department of Defense asking for the numbers of suicides among all service members for the past 12 years.

Four months later, they sent CBS News a document, showing that between 1995 and 2007, there were almost 2,200 suicides. That’s 188 last year alone. But these numbers included only “active duty” soldiers.

CBS News went to the Department of Veterans Affairs, where Dr. Ira Katz is head of mental health.

"There is no epidemic in suicide in the VA, but suicide is a major problem," he said.

Why hasn't the VA done a national study seeking national data on how many veterans have committed suicide in this country?

"That research is ongoing,” he said.

So CBS News did an investigation - asking all 50 states for their suicide data, based on death records, for veterans and non-veterans, dating back to 1995. Forty-five states sent what turned out to be a mountain of information.

And what it revealed was stunning.

In 2005, for example, in just those 45 states, there were at least 6,256 suicides among those who served in the armed forces. That’s 120 each and every week, in just one year.

Dr. Steve Rathbun is the acting head of the Epidemiology and Biostatistics Department at the University of Georgia. CBS News asked him to run a detailed analysis of the raw numbers that we obtained from state authorities for 2004 and 2005.

It found that veterans were more than twice as likely to commit suicide in 2005 than non-vets. (Veterans committed suicide at the rate of between 18.7 to 20.8 per 100,000, compared to other Americans, who did so at the rate of 8.9 per 100,000.)

One age group stood out. Veterans aged 20 through 24, those who have served during the war on terror. They had the highest suicide rate among all veterans, estimated between two and four times higher than civilians the same age. (The suicide rate for non-veterans is 8.3 per 100,000, while the rate for veterans was found to be between 22.9 and 31.9 per 100,000.)

"Wow! Those are devastating," said Paul Sullivan, a former VA analyst who is now an advocate for veterans rights from the group Veterans For Common Sense.

-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------


"Those numbers clearly show an epidemic of mental health problems," he said.

“We are determined to decrease veteran suicides," Dr. Katz said.

“One hundred and twenty a week. Is that a problem?” Keteyian asked.

“You bet it’s a problem,” he said.

Is it an epidemic?

“Suicide in America is an epidemic, and that includes veterans,” Katz said.

Sen. Murray said the numbers CBS News uncovered are significant: “These statistics tell me we've really failed people that served our country."

Do these numbers serve as a wake-up call for this country?

“If these numbers don't wake up this country, nothing will,” she said. “We each have a responsibility to the men and women who serve us aren't lost when they come home."


-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------

An update: The chairman of the Senate Veterans' Affairs Committee, Sen. Daniel Akaka, D-Hawaii, responded to the CBS News story Tuesday.

“The report that the rate of suicide among veterans is double that of the general population is deeply troubling and simply unacceptable. I am especially concerned that so many young veterans appear to be taking their own lives. For too many veterans, returning home from battle does not bring an end to conflict. There is no question that action is needed."

[link to www.cbsnews.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 74668



You can show Pacnwguy this info, but he will side step the info and call if false.
He is part of the political beast system.
Fun With Numbers
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11/15/2007 02:06 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
More service men died during the 80's than during the Iraq war.

From the Congressional Research Service;

[link to sweetness-light.com]

 Quoting: PACNWguy



Now, while I cannot claim to hold an equal amount of blind loyalty to a failed policy and a certifiable idiot, I can make the claim of holding a university degree in mathematics and of having more than a decade of experience in industry in the field of metrics collection and analysis. And whenever I see a numerical claim that raises an eyebrow, I tend to take a firsthand look at the numbers in question.

With that in mind, it gives me no small pleasure to expose the utter bullshit behind the fantasy-driven conclusions put forth by our truthtarded friend here.

You see, it's somewhat absurd to interpret anything from your claim, for several reasons:

1. The aggregate number of deaths, comparing the 10 years of the 80's to the four full years since the invasion of Iraq is ridiculous. The only fair comparison would be to look at the four-year stretch from 2003 through 2006 and compare it with the same four-year stretch in the 80's (1983-1986).

2. However, even then, as the invasion did not take palce until March 2003, and the subsequent occupation did not begin until late-April, the best data set for comparing the 1980's to post-war Iraq would only be the years 2004, 2005, and 2006, and their corresponding years in the 80's.

3. The total number of deaths is not the correct metric (read: it is a bullshit metric), considering there were, on average, 37% more serving U.S. military personnel during the 1980's than there have been since the invasion of Iraq. Of course one would expect more aggregate deaths.

4. The correct metric by which to analyze and compare the death rate would to compare the per capita death rate.

5. Another correct, i.e., not misleading comparison, would be between the rates during the Iraq war and the years immediately before the war. This comparison is far more relevant as it represents a similar-sized military under the command of a single Commander in Chief and reflects contemporary best practices meant to mitigate accidental death and injury.




Now, using the very same numbers in the very same Congressional report:

The average per capita death rate of U.S. military FTE from 1984-1986 was 9 in 10,000 (.000893). By comparison, the death rate between 2004-2006 was 11 in 10,000, a 22.2% increase over the corresponding years in the 1980s.

If one compares the rates since this administration took office, the average death rate for before Iraq (2001 and 2002) is only 6 deaths per 10,000. Compared with the average rate from 2004-2006 of 11 deaths per 10,000 means that in the three full years of post-war occupation in Iraq, the rate of death among U.S. military personnel has increased 83.3%... meaning it
has almost doubled.


Those are the truth in the numbers you provided. Thanks, PACNW, for bringing these alarming statistics to our attention for all the world to see.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2007 02:08 PM
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
"Compiled by the Department of Defense"

It's safe to say anything the DoD releases into the public record can pretty much be bsflag
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Re: US Military Deaths are at peace time levels and suicides are even lower. You wont hear this on MSN
At least 6,256 US veterans took their lives in 2005, at an average of 17 a day, according to figures broadcast last night. Former servicemen are more than twice as likely than the rest of the population to commit suicide.

Such statistics compare to the total of 3,863 American military deaths in Iraq since the invasion in 2003 - an average of 2.4 a day, according to the website ICasualties.org.

[link to timesonline.co.uk]
 Quoting: Source
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2007 02:19 PM
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[link to www.cnn.com]

It's from the Lancet, a prestigious journal of medicine and the calculations are proven by actuarials to be within acceptable levels of variation.

The number excludes military deaths and an additional year of warfare, so 1 million would look to be pretty close to accurate, if not a bit low.



>>Debunked well over a year ago. Try again.
 Quoting: Sinanju 326291


No, I am afraid your simpleton claim is unfounded.

In the future so as not to look like a tard, you must include links to alleged "debunks", mmaky asshat?
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[link to www.antiwar.com]



I guess that justifies the 1 million Iraqi civillian deaths. I mean if someone just came over to America and killed 1 million people brutally itd be just fine... NOT


>>Got a link for that ridiculous figure?



>> HA! A credible, non-ridiculous link, please. You might as well be quoting the ONION.
 Quoting: Sinanju 326291


and what makes you such an expert ?

News








We're dropping truth bombs like it's the end of days!