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The Atheist's Riddle...

 
Anonymous Coward
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11/26/2007 12:38 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
maybe everything that is physical is an illusion. kind of like the movie, the matrix. how do we know what is real and what isn't when everything that exists is based on our 5 senses which are just brain waves interpreted by our brain. take a color blind person for example. to that person everything is black and white. to someone who isn't colorblind, everything is in color. the universe we live in as we know it is just one of many perspectives.

if we can't even prove that we are actually here right now then how can we prove there is a god or prove there isn't. i think the theory of god is unprovable.
Anonymous Coward
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11/26/2007 12:40 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
You're an embarrassment to other atheists.
 Quoting: Thanatos


Why thank you. Coming from a backwards imbecile such as yourself, I will take that as a compliment.
Thanatos

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11/26/2007 12:42 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
You're an embarrassment to other atheists.


Why thank you. Coming from a backwards imbecile such as yourself, I will take that as a compliment.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 289164


That was circular reasoning. Evolution creates code because evolution creates code.
Rarrgh!
Anonymous Coward
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11/26/2007 12:58 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
maybe everything that is physical is an illusion. kind of like the movie, the matrix. how do we know what is real and what isn't when everything that exists is based on our 5 senses which are just brain waves interpreted by our brain.

if we can't even prove that we are actually here right now then how can we prove there is a god or prove there isn't.

i think the theory of god is unprovable.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 289264



Yet other people's reality is that HE is very provable.


so I guess you fall into the color blind category.
Anonymous Coward
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11/26/2007 01:01 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
You're an embarrassment to other atheists.


Why thank you. Coming from a backwards imbecile such as yourself, I will take that as a compliment.


That was circular reasoning. Evolution creates code because evolution creates code.
 Quoting: Thanatos



There is no evolution where there is no intelligent driving force behind it.





now go bury your nuts somewhere, you don't belong in this conversation.
Anonymous Coward
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11/26/2007 01:08 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
We can explore five possible conclusions:

1) Humans designed DNA
2) Aliens designed DNA
3) DNA occurred randomly and spontaneously
4) There must be some undiscovered law of physics that creates information
5) DNA was Designed by a Superintelligence, i.e. God.

(1) requires time travel or infinite generations of humans. (2) could well be true but only pushes the question back in time. (3) may be a remote possibility, but it's not a scientific explanation in that it doesn't refer to a systematic, repeatable process. It's nothing more than an appeal to luck. (4) could be true but no one can form a testable hypothesis until someone observes a naturally occurring code. So the only systematic explanation that remains is (5) a theological one.

To the extent that scientific reasoning can prove anything, DNA is proof of a designer.
 Quoting: Perry Marshall 158854


Then, by your reasoning, who designed God?
Anonymous Coward
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11/26/2007 01:10 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
You answered your own question.... God is "infinitely" complicated, therefore, can have no creator.
 Quoting: Gradient


How convenient.
Thanatos

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11/26/2007 01:12 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
You're an embarrassment to other atheists.


Why thank you. Coming from a backwards imbecile such as yourself, I will take that as a compliment.


That was circular reasoning. Evolution creates code because evolution creates code.



There is no evolution where there is no intelligent driving force behind it.





now go bury your nuts somewhere, you don't belong in this conversation.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 269870


If a predator chases its prey, will the prey evolve the ability to run faster? Will versions with colors that match the environment be more successful? If the prey is in a forest or a tundra will the pressures be different and eventually produce a different species?

I'm not going anywhere. I've got all day to make fools suffer.
Rarrgh!
Anonymous Coward
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11/26/2007 01:29 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
If a predator chases its prey, will the prey evolve the ability to run faster?
 Quoting: Thanatos


It depends on whether the prey is actually caught. You have it exactly backward again. The evolution takes place prior to the chase. Those with the ability to run faster will escape and propagate the genetic information which allowed them to run faster.

Will versions with colors that match the environment be more successful? If the prey is in a forest or a tundra will the pressures be different and eventually produce a different species?
 Quoting: Thanatos


Again -- same as above. Those who are born with the ability to hide from their predators will have a higher chance of propagating the very genetic information which allowed them to hide better. If you take a green stick insect and move it to a desert, its green color will work to its detriment. It will not be able to hide nearly as well as it once did. Over time, the green will disappear from future generations of that transplanted green stick insect. Future generations will have minor variations, resulting from random mutations within their genetic structure. Those who, as a result, develop brown/tan color, rather than the green, will be favored under the newer conditions.
Thanatos

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11/26/2007 01:31 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
If a predator chases its prey, will the prey evolve the ability to run faster?


It depends on whether the prey is actually caught. You have it exactly backward again. The evolution takes place prior to the chase. Those with the ability to run faster will escape and propagate the genetic information which allowed them to run faster.


Will versions with colors that match the environment be more successful? If the prey is in a forest or a tundra will the pressures be different and eventually produce a different species?

Again -- same as above. Those who are born with the ability to hide from their predators will have a higher chance of propagating the very genetic information which allowed them to hide better. If you take a green stick insect and move it to a desert, its green color will work to its detriment. It will not be able to hide nearly as well as it once did. Over time, the green will disappear from future generations of that transplanted green stick insect. Future generations will have minor variations, resulting from random mutations within their genetic structure. Those who, as a result, develop brown/tan color, rather than the green, will be favored under the newer conditions.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 289164


More or less. I was thinking in terms of an entire population of hypothetical organisms. Any Lamarckism in that post was entirely accidental.
Rarrgh!
Anonymous Coward
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11/26/2007 01:33 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
There is no intelligent design. Creationists are proof of it! laugh

Bunch of idiots who would rather belive the Biblical lies, bullshit and propaganda than engage in some real study about how wonderfull our universe really is.
Anonymous Coward
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11/26/2007 02:01 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
The starting point of this discussion is my central thesis, which is:

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

Perry Marshall

[link to www.cosmicfingerprints.com]
 Quoting: Perry Marshall 158854



Yet we are supposed to believe that god sent his son to die on a cross.

A son who was born of a virgin, impregnated by "god".

Then after he died, he rose from the dead, and went to heaven.

And we havent seen hide nor hair of him in 2,00 years.





bsflag
Anonymous Coward
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11/26/2007 02:05 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
There is no intelligent design. Creationists are proof of it! laugh

Bunch of idiots who would rather belive the Biblical lies, bullshit and propaganda than engage in some real study about how wonderfull our universe really is.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 259114



Could you please explain your opinions on how and why our universe is wonderful.......
Anonymous Coward
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11/26/2007 02:24 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
There is no intelligent design. Creationists are proof of it! laugh

Bunch of idiots who would rather belive the Biblical lies, bullshit and propaganda than engage in some real study about how wonderfull our universe really is.



Could you please explain your opinions on how and why our universe is wonderful.......
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 269870

Nope - not going to get drawn into that trap. Sorry, you'll need to do better, it's not up to any Atheist to prove there is no God, Godess, gods or godesses.

The ONLY person I have resolve my beliefs or otherwise to is myself and I'm perfectly comfortable with that.
Anonymous Coward
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11/26/2007 02:28 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
There is no intelligent design. Creationists are proof of it! laugh

Bunch of idiots who would rather belive the Biblical lies, bullshit and propaganda than engage in some real study about how wonderfull our universe really is.



Could you please explain your opinions on how and why our universe is wonderful.......

Nope - not going to get drawn into that trap. Sorry, you'll need to do better, it's not up to any Atheist to prove there is no God, Godess, gods or godesses.

The ONLY person I have resolve my beliefs or otherwise to is myself and I'm perfectly comfortable with that.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 259114



I suppose you think you created all the wonderful intricate machinations of your body too.


lol


I believe the universe is wonderful because our Intelligent Designer/Creator loves us, and created it that way for our enjoyment.
Anonymous Coward
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11/26/2007 02:33 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
I suppose you think you created all the wonderful intricate machinations of your body too.


lol


I believe the universe is wonderful because our Intelligent Designer/Creator loves us, and created it that way for our enjoyment.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 269870


Since you seem to have such a gifted insight into my beliefs there is no point in further expressing myself in light of such arrogance
Anonymous Coward
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11/26/2007 02:36 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
I suppose you think you created all the wonderful intricate machinations of your body too.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 269870


This is standard non-thinking tripe from the religious nutter camp. Nobody claims that they 'created' their own body. The body is created from the information contained in the DNA of the original fertilized cell we all came from. That information is the result of 2 or 3 billion years of evolution.

I suggest you spend some time learning what Evolution is really about:

[link to www.youtube.com]

[link to www.youtube.com]

[link to www.youtube.com]

[link to www.youtube.com]

[link to www.youtube.com]

[link to www.youtube.com]

[link to www.youtube.com]
Anonymous Coward
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11/26/2007 02:52 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
I suppose you think you created all the wonderful intricate machinations of your body too.


lol


I believe the universe is wonderful because our Intelligent Designer/Creator loves us, and created it that way for our enjoyment.


Since you seem to have such a gifted insight into my beliefs there is no point in further expressing myself in light of such arrogance
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 259114



Your overall attitude is that with your intelligence you recognize the wonderful aspects of the universe,

wonderful aspects of the universe that are far and above your ability to completely conceive, but recreate...


all the while you fail to give credance to those wonderful aspects as being Intelligence driven....and mock anyone who does.

that attitude speaks much of your arrogance and limited view of reality.
Thanatos

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11/26/2007 02:52 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
There is no intelligent design. Creationists are proof of it! laugh

Bunch of idiots who would rather belive the Biblical lies, bullshit and propaganda than engage in some real study about how wonderfull our universe really is.



Could you please explain your opinions on how and why our universe is wonderful.......
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 269870


That would be several pages of information even if I compress it down into incomprehensibility. Just...go to college and get great science teachers.
Rarrgh!
edited
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11/26/2007 02:54 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
"wonderful aspects of the universe that are far and above your ability to completely conceive, or recreate..."
Anonymous Coward
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11/26/2007 03:01 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
There is no intelligent design. Creationists are proof of it! laugh

Bunch of idiots who would rather belive the Biblical lies, bullshit and propaganda than engage in some real study about how wonderfull our universe really is.

~~~~~~~~~~~``

Could you please explain your opinions on how and why our universe is wonderful.......

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That would be several pages of information even if I compress it down into incomprehensibility. Just...go to college and get great science teachers.
 Quoting: Thanatos




I don't care to hear your opinion, I was talking to 259114.


I did go to college and aced my science classes.


You, on the other hand, might learn something valuable from this man who I can easily assume is more intelligent than you....




"By Dr. Francis Collins
Special to CNN


Editor's note: Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D., is the director of the Human Genome Project. His most recent book is "The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief."


ROCKVILLE, Maryland (CNN) -- I am a scientist and a believer, and I find no conflict between those world views.

As the director of the Human Genome Project, I have led a consortium of scientists to read out the 3.1 billion letters of the human genome, our own DNA instruction book. As a believer, I see DNA, the information molecule of all living things, as God's language, and the elegance and complexity of our own bodies and the rest of nature as a reflection of God's plan.

I did not always embrace these perspectives. As a graduate student in physical chemistry in the 1970s, I was an atheist, finding no reason to postulate the existence of any truths outside of mathematics, physics and chemistry. But then I went to medical school, and encountered life and death issues at the bedsides of my patients. Challenged by one of those patients, who asked "What do you believe, doctor?", I began searching for answers.

I had to admit that the science I loved so much was powerless to answer questions such as "What is the meaning of life?" "Why am I here?" "Why does mathematics work, anyway?" "If the universe had a beginning, who created it?" "Why are the physical constants in the universe so finely tuned to allow the possibility of complex life forms?" "Why do humans have a moral sense?" "What happens after we die?" (Watch Francis Collins discuss how he came to believe in God )

I had always assumed that faith was based on purely emotional and irrational arguments, and was astounded to discover, initially in the writings of the Oxford scholar C.S. Lewis and subsequently from many other sources, that one could build a very strong case for the plausibility of the existence of God on purely rational grounds.

My earlier atheist's assertion that "I know there is no God" emerged as the least defensible.

As the British writer G.K. Chesterton famously remarked,

"Atheism is the most daring of all dogmas, for it is the assertion of a universal negative.""



[link to www.cnn.com]
Thanatos

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11/26/2007 04:47 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
There is no intelligent design. Creationists are proof of it! laugh

Bunch of idiots who would rather belive the Biblical lies, bullshit and propaganda than engage in some real study about how wonderfull our universe really is.

~~~~~~~~~~~``

Could you please explain your opinions on how and why our universe is wonderful.......

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That would be several pages of information even if I compress it down into incomprehensibility. Just...go to college and get great science teachers.




I don't care to hear your opinion, I was talking to 259114.


I did go to college and aced my science classes.


You, on the other hand, might learn something valuable from this man who I can easily assume is more intelligent than you....




"By Dr. Francis Collins
Special to CNN


Editor's note: Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D., is the director of the Human Genome Project. His most recent book is "The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief."


ROCKVILLE, Maryland (CNN) -- I am a scientist and a believer, and I find no conflict between those world views.

As the director of the Human Genome Project, I have led a consortium of scientists to read out the 3.1 billion letters of the human genome, our own DNA instruction book. As a believer, I see DNA, the information molecule of all living things, as God's language, and the elegance and complexity of our own bodies and the rest of nature as a reflection of God's plan.

I did not always embrace these perspectives. As a graduate student in physical chemistry in the 1970s, I was an atheist, finding no reason to postulate the existence of any truths outside of mathematics, physics and chemistry. But then I went to medical school, and encountered life and death issues at the bedsides of my patients. Challenged by one of those patients, who asked "What do you believe, doctor?", I began searching for answers.

I had to admit that the science I loved so much was powerless to answer questions such as "What is the meaning of life?" "Why am I here?" "Why does mathematics work, anyway?" "If the universe had a beginning, who created it?" "Why are the physical constants in the universe so finely tuned to allow the possibility of complex life forms?" "Why do humans have a moral sense?" "What happens after we die?" (Watch Francis Collins discuss how he came to believe in God )

I had always assumed that faith was based on purely emotional and irrational arguments, and was astounded to discover, initially in the writings of the Oxford scholar C.S. Lewis and subsequently from many other sources, that one could build a very strong case for the plausibility of the existence of God on purely rational grounds.

My earlier atheist's assertion that "I know there is no God" emerged as the least defensible.

As the British writer G.K. Chesterton famously remarked,

"Atheism is the most daring of all dogmas, for it is the assertion of a universal negative.""



[link to www.cnn.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 269870


And if you ask I'll be able to answer. Give me something specific.
Rarrgh!
Anonymous Coward
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11/28/2007 03:56 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
Great post OP!

Really makes the atheists sweat!!
Anonymous Coward
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11/28/2007 04:26 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
The starting point of this discussion is my central thesis, which is:

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

Perry Marshall

[link to www.cosmicfingerprints.com]
 Quoting: Perry Marshall 158854

DNA is not a code. We interpret it as such, but that's simply a human mind imposing its view on the natural properties of a molecule. If DNA is a 'code' then the properties of water that lead it to crystallize into snow and ice when frozen could also be considered a code. If DNA is a 'code', it could be argued that every chemical property of any compound or element is part of some 'code'. Your riddle is bullshit, because its first assumption is faulty.
Anonymous Coward
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11/28/2007 04:40 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
DNA is also sloppy code. just look at the all the junk dna.

it shows patterns of commenting out code just like in real programming languages.

i believe we are intelligently designed but I'm starting to wonder if we are genetically engineered apes created by some ET scientists.
Anonymous Coward
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11/28/2007 04:40 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
DNA is not a code.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 332889



lol

Educate yourself




"The level of scientific knowledge we have arrived at today shows that the evident design and complex systems in living things make it impossible for them to have emerged by chance.

For instance, thanks to the recent "Human Genome Project," the marvelous design and the enormous information content in human genes have been revealed for all to see.


In the framework of that project, scientists from many countries, from the United States to China, worked for 10 years to decipher one by one the 3 billion chemical codes in DNA.

As a result, nearly all the information in human genes has been set out in its correct order.


Although this is a very exciting and important development, as Dr. Francis Collins, who leads the Human Genome Project states, so far only the first step has been taken in the decoding of the information in DNA.


In order to understand why it took 10 years and the work of hundreds of scientists to uncover the codes that make up this information, we have to understand the magnitude of the information contained within DNA.


There is enough information in the DNA of a single human cell to fill an encyclopedia of one million pages. It would be impossible to read it all in one lifetime.

If one person set out to read one DNA code per second, non-stop, all day every day, it would take him 100 years.

That is because the DNA encyclopedia in question possesses nearly three billion different codes.

If we wrote down all the information in DNA on paper, it would stretch from the North Pole to the Equator. That means some 1,000 large volumes-more than enough to fill a big library.


Even more important, all this information is contained in the nucleus of each and every cell,..... which means that as each individual consists of some 100 trillion cells, there are 100 trillion versions of the same library.


If the information in DNA were written out on a piece of paper, it would stretch from the North Pole to the Equator.


If we wish to compare this treasury of information with the level of knowledge so far reached by man, it is impossible to provide any example of the same magnitude.


An unbelievable picture presents itself: 100 trillion x 1,000 books!

Furthermore, if we multiply that number by the six billion people currently living on the Earth, and the billions more who have ever lived, then the number is beyond our capacity to grasp, and the amount of information stretches to infinity.


These examples are an indication of what imposing information we are living cheek by jowl with.

We possess advanced computers that can store great amounts of information.


However, when we compare DNA to these computers, we are amazed to see that the most modern technology-the product of the cumulative human labour and knowledge over the centuries....does not even possess the storage capacity of a single cell.


[link to darwinismrefuted.com]
Anonymous Coward
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11/28/2007 04:41 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
DNA is also sloppy code. just look at the all the junk dna.

it shows patterns of commenting out code just like in real programming languages.

i believe we are intelligently designed but I'm starting to wonder if we are genetically engineered apes created by some ET scientists.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 289264



what i mean is clean code would prevent cancer. sloppy code causes cancer. just like in a computer programming language.
Thanatos

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11/28/2007 04:56 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
The starting point of this discussion is my central thesis, which is:

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

Perry Marshall

[link to www.cosmicfingerprints.com]

DNA is not a code. We interpret it as such, but that's simply a human mind imposing its view on the natural properties of a molecule. If DNA is a 'code' then the properties of water that lead it to crystallize into snow and ice when frozen could also be considered a code. If DNA is a 'code', it could be argued that every chemical property of any compound or element is part of some 'code'. Your riddle is bullshit, because its first assumption is faulty.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 332889


I'm shocked and amazed. Genes shut themselves on and off and have a whole elaborate set of integene interactions. Did you ever wonder why not all your genes are transcribed at once and how they know when to stop growing or when to warm up the acid production pathways after a meal? Its all programming. I lived and breathed this stuff in biology class.

And in my humble opinion, it looks wrong. Not only is it extremely complex, many of the operons are vastly overcomplex. There are things that are done with horrible inefficiency. Whole big chunks of it can be removed without a penalty to fitness. Despite this, it all works. Based upon what I've seen it was either designed by an idiot savant with an obsession for reusing old chunks and an actual love of complexity and fractals, or its evolved code. You just don't see anything else that looks like this, and if anybody here would know it would be me. I already posted the link to Avida so people can play around with digital organisms.
Rarrgh!
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
The starting point of this discussion is my central thesis, which is:

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

Perry Marshall

[link to www.cosmicfingerprints.com]


First you would have to prove that DNA is a 'code'. I think you'll find it's no such thing but rather it's a means of replicating a structure. If you like it's more akin to how a crystal grows.

Or would you argue that crystals are the product of an intelegent force?



Many patterns occur in nature without the help of a designer – snowflakes, tornados, hurricanes, sand dunes, stalactites, rivers and ocean waves. These patterns are the natural result of what scientists categorize as chaos and fractals. These things are well-understood and we experience them every day.

Codes, however, do not occur without a designer. Examples of symbolic codes include music, blueprints, languages like English and Chinese, computer programs, and yes, DNA. The essential distinction is the difference between a pattern and a code. Chaos can produce patterns, but it has never been shown to produce codes or symbols. Codes and symbols create information, which is not a property of matter and energy alone. Information itself is a separate entity on par with matter and energy.

roof that DNA was designed by a mind: (1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism. (2) All codes we know the origin of are created by a conscious mind. (3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind, and language and information are proof of the existence of a Superintelligence.

We can explore five possible conclusions:

1) Humans designed DNA
2) Aliens designed DNA
3) DNA occurred randomly and spontaneously
4) There must be some undiscovered law of physics that creates information
5) DNA was Designed by a Superintelligence, i.e. God.

(1) requires time travel or infinite generations of humans. (2) could well be true but only pushes the question back in time. (3) may be a remote possibility, but it's not a scientific explanation in that it doesn't refer to a systematic, repeatable process. It's nothing more than an appeal to luck. (4) could be true but no one can form a testable hypothesis until someone observes a naturally occurring code. So the only systematic explanation that remains is (5) a theological one.

To the extent that scientific reasoning can prove anything, DNA is proof of a designer.
 Quoting: Perry Marshall 158854

DNA is not a code in the sense you are asserting. We view it as a code, but that's just our minds imposing a view on reality. DNA is an intelligently designed 'code' as much as the 'law' of gravity is an intelligently designed 'law'. You had might as well argue that the planets need a divine hand to guide them around the sun, as their orbits must certainly have been intelligently designed. The behavior of DNA is simply the emergent result of the chemical properties of its constituents, just as the behavior of the orbits of the planets is the result of the force of gravity. No intelligent design is involved, just unthinking, unaware forces of nature guiding the behavior of matter.

Your whole argument is nothing more than asserting that DNA is a code, that all codes must be intelligently designed, and thus DNA was intelligently designed. You've completely neglected mention of natural phenomenon whose behavior can look to a human mind like 'intelligently designed' codes but are really just the result of basic natural law. DNA is an example of such a phenomenon, so is the assembly of polymers from base monomers, the crystallization of solids, the self assembly of planets and stars from planetary nebula materials, the weather, the ocean currents, the movement of the tectonic plates, etc. All of these systems exhibit great complexity and self organization to varying degrees, but none of them require an intelligent designer.

Before we could assume that DNA was a code in the manner you suggest, we'd need proof that it was intelligently designed - we'd need to see proof of its alleged designer. You're putting your conclusion before the chain of evidence that's supposed to lead up to it. You're starting off with the assumption that DNA is an intelligently designed code - you never bother to actually prove it. Your argument is fundamentally flawed in this sense, and I dare you to even try to fix it without resorting to hand waving and special pleading.
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
The starting point of this discussion is my central thesis, which is:

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

Perry Marshall

[link to www.cosmicfingerprints.com]

DNA is not a code. We interpret it as such, but that's simply a human mind imposing its view on the natural properties of a molecule. If DNA is a 'code' then the properties of water that lead it to crystallize into snow and ice when frozen could also be considered a code. If DNA is a 'code', it could be argued that every chemical property of any compound or element is part of some 'code'. Your riddle is bullshit, because its first assumption is faulty.


I'm shocked and amazed. Genes shut themselves on and off and have a whole elaborate set of integene interactions. Did you ever wonder why not all your genes are transcribed at once and how they know when to stop growing or when to warm up the acid production pathways after a meal? Its all programming. I lived and breathed this stuff in biology class.

And in my humble opinion, it looks wrong. Not only is it extremely complex, many of the operons are vastly overcomplex. There are things that are done with horrible inefficiency. Whole big chunks of it can be removed without a penalty to fitness. Despite this, it all works. Based upon what I've seen it was either designed by an idiot savant with an obsession for reusing old chunks and an actual love of complexity and fractals, or its evolved code. You just don't see anything else that looks like this, and if anybody here would know it would be me. I already posted the link to Avida so people can play around with digital organisms.
 Quoting: Thanatos

If you took biology and didn't come away with an understanding of how natural selection could produce systems exactly like this over time, then you didn't learn a thing.
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