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The Atheist's Riddle...

 
~Sir John~

User ID: 411610
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04/09/2008 07:17 PM

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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
5) DNA was Designed by a Superintelligence, i.e. God.



Bingo
gooderboy

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04/09/2008 07:17 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
'Beginnings'

"It's deceptive to say that thus and so "happened in the beginning," or that "in the beginning was the word," or whatever, because there was no official Beginning when God suddenly came parading out of nothingness, bearing the ingredients of mountains, oceans, and land, and trailing sky banners proclaiming the opening of the universe, or the creation of life from a sea of gases.

There are multitudinous beginnings. "The Beginning" is only the one you came in on, so to speak, which is rather like coming into a dream in the middle and wondering what happened earlier. In dreams, everything really happens at once, even though there seems to be a beginning and ending . . . the past and the present and future merge . . . and the universe is like that in a way.

You're bound to wonder what went on or how long it's all been going on, not realizing that in a matter of speaking, it just started when you got there. And in another way, it really isn't there at all.

If you dream that you're in a jungle, for instance, no vines or tangled undergrowth climb up the bedpost, and no exotic animals prowl between the window and the door. Yet the jungle certainly seems real. Where did it come from, or when did it begin? The universe is like the dream jungle. It exists quite properly, yet in a most profound way it makes no sense to ask when it all began. It begins each day, each moment, at each point of our contact with it.

The gods exist in the same manner, like a giant species of consciousness, striding psychological paths of vast proportions that that never really physically appear in the world at all. The gods and the universe really begin everyplace and "everywhere" at once, at every point. Our psychological reality rises from an inner inconceivable divine mind that's invisible to us, since we are It, earthized, individualized. We are the gods in camouflage."
(thanks ever S&J)

w/luv,hi
just me
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2008 07:23 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
DNA is not a code. We interpret it as such, but that's simply a human mind imposing its view on the natural properties of a molecule. If DNA is a 'code' then the properties of water that lead it to crystallize into snow and ice when frozen could also be considered a code. If DNA is a 'code', it could be argued that every chemical property of any compound or element is part of some 'code'. Your riddle is bullshit, because its first assumption is faulty.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 332889
tim
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04/09/2008 07:27 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
The human hand, the eyeball, obvious intelligent design. To those who do not believe, there is no GOD for you. Your future is to be destroyed. Real smart, WAKE THE HELL UP.
nomuse (NLI)
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04/09/2008 07:34 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
The human hand, the eyeball, obvious intelligent design. To those who do not believe, there is no GOD for you. Your future is to be destroyed. Real smart, WAKE THE HELL UP.
 Quoting: tim 392895



Typical Christer threat.

"If you don't agree with me, my invisible fairy friend will torture you after you are dead."

Some of us think that good works should also be done in THIS lifetime.


Some intelligence (says I, near-sighted, night vision already going as I age). Ask any opthamologist if they couldn't think of ten improvements for the human eye right off the bat.

And, what, did he lose the blueprints? Why come up a completely different eye for insects, and yet another for marine invertebrates? And why put a perfectly functional eye on, say, a cave fish that will never have a chance to use it?
LouisWinthorpeIII

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04/09/2008 07:37 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
It takes more than just looking at the DNA molecule under a microscope to determine a creator or not.

Take your eye off the lens, step back and LOOK at what DNA creates !!


Beautifully complicated, very specifically purposed flora, fauna, foul, mammals, reptiles, fishes.....all working together in perfect balance to one another when left to their own devices...


and each with their own PURPOSE and 'job' within the balance of the ecosystem



Do any of you atheists realize that we wouldn't even BE HERE if it weren't for the color GREEN.


Now ask yourselves how it's possible that within that ecosystem, a single species could possibly have the consciousness to KNOW that it needed to do, and provide within it's appointed place in the food chain to help support everything else further up on the chain.


Everything on land and in the sea has a specific purpose to keep the ecosystem in balance.


The ecosystem HAS PROVEN itself to be a massive consciousness driven system, evidenced by the cooperation of thousands of species within.


It's downright frightening that some people still believe the infinitely designed balanced ecosystem occured by happenstance.


Doesn't even make sense.



A system without a HIGHER consciousness CANNOT PRODUCE SOMETHING BALANCED AND INTELLIGENTLY ORCHESTRATED ON A MASSIVE SCALE.





this is another good thread about how the universe is set up mathematically.....

Thread: DNA,SYMBOLS and SECRETS...101
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 269870



And yet your sky fairy won't even stop the massicare of millions of people.

God is a luxury of the decadent.
"I don't know which was scarier...the speech...or the Congress cheering it. He evoked Lincoln. Whenever a President is going to get us into serious trouble...they always use Lincoln."
-2010
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2008 07:43 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
And yet your sky fairy won't even stop the massicare of millions of people.

God is a luxury of the decadent.
 Quoting: LouisWinthorpeIII



Free will and the laws of cause and effect are allowed to play out.


You don't want a God in your life, yet you wish there was one to save the world from it's own free will choices.



interesting.
deepend

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04/09/2008 07:46 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
How about this? What is DNA made of? Here is a nice link you might find interesting. What they are talking about is the search for anything that is solid. Is it that we made purely of compressed light? When you think you have found something solid, a closer look shows that it is made of even smaller entities. Nothing exists; yet here we are - it is truly incredible. We are compressed light that thinks.


[link to www.worldontheweb.com]
Scientists seek “God particle”
Written by Daniel Devine
April 1, 2008
Scientists are conducting the largest physics experiment in the world and searching for “the God particle” — a mysterious bit of stuff that would prove the prevailing theory of particle physics. Since the Higgs boson particle should disintegrate and disappear almost as soon as it is created, actually detecting one is a long shot. But if an accelerator can do it, the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) can.
^^ gravity is a harsh reality. ^^
LouisWinthorpeIII

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04/09/2008 07:48 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
And yet your sky fairy won't even stop the massicare of millions of people.

God is a luxury of the decadent.



Free will and the laws of cause and effect are allowed to play out.


You don't want a God in your life, yet you wish there was one to save the world from it's own free will choices.



interesting.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 406731

Oh please, even a child knows there is no such thing as free will.

Tell me why again, god kills billions?

LOL the best question is how many times have I asked this?
"I don't know which was scarier...the speech...or the Congress cheering it. He evoked Lincoln. Whenever a President is going to get us into serious trouble...they always use Lincoln."
-2010
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2008 07:52 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
And yet your sky fairy won't even stop the massicare of millions of people.

God is a luxury of the decadent.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

Free will and the laws of cause and effect are allowed to play out.


You don't want a God in your life, yet you wish there was one to save the world from it's own free will choices.



interesting.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oh please, even a child knows there is no such thing as free will.

Tell me why again, god kills billions?

LOL the best question is how many times have I asked this?
 Quoting: LouisWinthorpeIII



You make no sense.....children are notorious for making free will choices.


btw.....Did you actually SEE God kill billions??

NO.

If you claim you actually SAW GOD doing that, then we must all assume you believe He exists.
nomuse (NLI)
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04/09/2008 07:54 PM
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Wrong.

Just pointing out, if you can praise God for doing good things, then you can chastise him for doing ill. He doesn't get a Get Out of Jail Free card.

It's particularly absurd when you realize a great many Christian sects do not care what exercise is made of this vaunted free will except in one arena. Lie, cheat, steal; or be a philanthropist, a doctor, a good samaritan. Doesn't matter. All that God cares about is if you said the Magic Word or not.

I've attended services. The lessons I heard there disgusted me.
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2008 08:00 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
Wrong.

Just pointing out, if you can praise God for doing good things, then you can chastise him for doing ill.
 Quoting: nomuse (NLI) 411948



When did you actually SEE God do ill?



popcorn
tim
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04/09/2008 08:08 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
I assure you, no one is dead, no one is hurt, and no one is getting away with anything.
LouisWinthorpeIII

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04/09/2008 08:12 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
You make no sense.....children are notorious for making free will choices.


btw.....Did you actually SEE God kill billions??

NO.

If you claim you actually SAW GOD doing that, then we must all assume you believe He exists.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 406731


You fail to grasp simple mechanics. There is no free anything. Certainly no free will.

And yes if you have your god, your god set in motion all death.

Your god sucks, it's a shame you don't understand that. But it's not your fault as your mind is simply constructed in a manner that cannot grasp that.

At least nobody has bothered with painfully simple watches yet...

As for DNA it's funny how there are precursive versions of it, but of course like evoltion the sky goddess people must put their heads in the sand.

but then it's not their fault, they were simply delt that hand.
"I don't know which was scarier...the speech...or the Congress cheering it. He evoked Lincoln. Whenever a President is going to get us into serious trouble...they always use Lincoln."
-2010
anonymous coward
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04/09/2008 08:12 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
The only way christers can prove they have a god, is to drag its sorry ass down here on earth for all to see.

Of course they can't do that because their invisible god is non existent.

No real god could be such a nasty lousy murderous scum bag god as the stinking bible god.

It slaughtered every living thing on earth with it's flood. Then it once blew through Egypt and murdered every first born child including all first born animals.

That sort of god is an insame maniac. It can go f itself.
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2008 08:16 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
The starting point of this discussion is my central thesis, which is:

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

Perry Marshall

[link to www.cosmicfingerprints.com]



Piss poor logic. Like the teleological argument (I think), its circle logic - you base the conclusion on a premise that is inherently unprovable. You ASSUME that #2 is true, but you have not proved that point. Prove that and I might stop being an atheist.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 331850

NO, it's perfect.

Phi-1.618
nomuse (NLI)
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04/09/2008 08:18 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
Wrong.

Just pointing out, if you can praise God for doing good things, then you can chastise him for doing ill.


When did you actually SEE God do ill?



popcorn
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 406731



I haven't seen a sky fairy do ANYTHING.

I am just objecting to those who go around saying "oooh, look at all the cool stuff our god did!" and then try to avoid making him responsible for anything other than the cool stuff.

I would think this would be a clear and simple idea. I don't need to have any personal connection or animosity towards a sky fairy to be able to theorize about the actions of one. I can make moral judgements about the behaviors of people in a movie. So what prevents me from making moral judgements about the behavior of people in a Book?
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2008 08:18 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
The only way christers can prove they have a god, is to drag its sorry ass down here on earth for all to see.

Of course they can't do that because their invisible god is non existent.

No real god could be such a nasty lousy murderous scum bag god as the stinking bible god.

It slaughtered every living thing on earth with it's flood. Then it once blew through Egypt and murdered every first born child including all first born animals.

That sort of god is an insame maniac. It can go f itself.
 Quoting: anonymous coward 394969

A god? The OP is wanting to discuss an intelligent consciousness. If you can get past pre-school, you're on your way.
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2008 08:19 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
I don't believe it's possible that there is not a code. Even chaos must have a code.
anonymous coward
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04/09/2008 08:20 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
And yet your sky fairy won't even stop the massicare of millions of people.

God is a luxury of the decadent.



Free will and the laws of cause and effect are allowed to play out.


You don't want a God in your life, yet you wish there was one to save the world from it's own free will choices.



interesting.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 406731


-------------------------------------------------------------​-

There can be no free will with an "all knowing" god.
He knows everything we will do in advance. We have no choice in the matter. If we have a choice then your pussy boy god is not "all knowing"

You chirsters can't have it both ways. Your god loves to see babies raped, starved to death, born deformed, and blown to bits when one country attacks another.

Your god loves this stuff. He is a real murderous blood and guts god.
nomuse (NLI)
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04/09/2008 08:22 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
Question before us now is if this thread has been hijacked by knee-jerk Christers (and atheists responding in kind), or if the OP had all along such a transparent purpose there really is no point in discussing the actual mechanics of DNA, information theory, semiotics et al.
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2008 08:26 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
Now, I'm confused. OP, I thought you were revealing that there is an intelligent consciousness, that which IS the code of all or behind all. I don't believe it is possible to NOT have that code of ALL THERE IS. I believe even chaos has a code.

Many scientist believe in the God particle. How can one colony of monkeys invent a different way of making something and another group 1000 miles away start doing the same thing? Everything is connected. There is no separation.
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2008 08:27 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
Question before us now is if this thread has been hijacked by knee-jerk Christers (and atheists responding in kind), or if the OP had all along such a transparent purpose there really is no point in discussing the actual mechanics of DNA, information theory, semiotics et al.
 Quoting: nomuse (NLI) 411948

There should be no separation between science and spirituality. How does a water molecule form?
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2008 08:28 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
Wrong.

Just pointing out, if you can praise God for doing good things, then you can chastise him for doing ill.


When did you actually SEE God do ill?



popcorn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I haven't seen a sky fairy do ANYTHING.

I am just objecting to those who go around saying "oooh, look at all the cool stuff our god did!" and then try to avoid making him responsible for anything other than the cool stuff.

 Quoting: nomuse (NLI) 411948



Well let's see, creation is pretty darn cool....



what man chooses to do with his free will....not so much.


You do understand what free will means, correct?
nomuse (NLI)
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04/09/2008 08:59 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
This sounds like you are ascribing all "evil" to free will.

At first it looks defensible. God makes the world. He then lets humanity chose what they will do. Some chose violence, torture, self-destruction, etc.


But let's take a closer look at what lies within those choices. I can chose not to apply violence to my fellow humans. Can I chose not to have a virus apply violence to my intestinal tract? Can I chose whether the tiger attacks me? Well -- we might think about applying free will to the tiger. But, being a carnivore, the only path that leads that tiger away from predation is one of self-destruction. Did God set up a world in which the tiger is either damned, or dead? Seems a little pointless to me but anyhow...

Actually, though, I can chose to avoid some of the travails of infection (and malnutrition, and genetic defect...) Among the tools given to me with free will are the tools of science and technology.

This is even more interesting. God has created a world which awards us for using the intelligence and free will he has also given us. Sounds to me like a plan.

As an individual, I can chose to act as an individual, and directly compete for my needs against other individuals. Or I can chose to act as a member of a society, and work together to fulfill my needs in much greater ways. As an individual I can not cook a gourmet meal or compose a symphony; but as a member of society I have access to both of these. Enlightened self-interest on top of instinctual communal behavior.

So, again, God has created a world in which being an intelligent, free-willed individual is rewarded. In which morality itself is rewarded. And it requires no external system of checks and balances, awards and punishments.



Until a religious person comes along with the perfect escape clause.
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2008 09:04 PM
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maybe i should clarify myself. the universe only exists because we observe it. it can't exist without observers. the big bang existed only because we observe the radation left behind from it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 289264


wait a minute....if I've got this right, you're saying that if a tree fell in the forest and nobody saw it fall, it should not be laying on the ground?

I see trees laying on the ground all the time! I bet nobody saw, at least one of the trees I saw, fall!

AH HA!
anonymous coward...
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04/09/2008 09:06 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
This sounds like you are ascribing all "evil" to free will.

At first it looks defensible. God makes the world. He then lets humanity chose what they will do. Some chose violence, torture, self-destruction, etc.


But let's take a closer look at what lies within those choices. I can chose not to apply violence to my fellow humans. Can I chose not to have a virus apply violence to my intestinal tract? Can I chose whether the tiger attacks me? Well -- we might think about applying free will to the tiger. But, being a carnivore, the only path that leads that tiger away from predation is one of self-destruction. Did God set up a world in which the tiger is either damned, or dead? Seems a little pointless to me but anyhow...

Actually, though, I can chose to avoid some of the travails of infection (and malnutrition, and genetic defect...) Among the tools given to me with free will are the tools of science and technology.

This is even more interesting. God has created a world which awards us for using the intelligence and free will he has also given us. Sounds to me like a plan.

As an individual, I can chose to act as an individual, and directly compete for my needs against other individuals. Or I can chose to act as a member of a society, and work together to fulfill my needs in much greater ways. As an individual I can not cook a gourmet meal or compose a symphony; but as a member of society I have access to both of these. Enlightened self-interest on top of instinctual communal behavior.

So, again, God has created a world in which being an intelligent, free-willed individual is rewarded. In which morality itself is rewarded. And it requires no external system of checks and balances, awards and punishments.



Until a religious person comes along with the perfect escape clause.
 Quoting: nomuse (NLI) 411948


----------------------------------------------------------



If we have free will then your god is not "all knowing".
An "all knowing" god knows what we will do before we do it.

Therefore your god is not "all aknowing"

It is also obviously not "all powerful" either., Actually its a nothing god. It can't even do a card trick. it no where and no body. Zero, nothing.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
I don't believe it's possible that there is not a code. Even chaos must have a code.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 403022


How could that be? You are saying that Chaos is the exact antonym of itself?!?!!? Thats crazy, maaaan!!!!
nomuse (NLI)
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04/09/2008 09:20 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
If we have free will then your god is not "all knowing".
An "all knowing" god knows what we will do before we do it.

Therefore your god is not "all aknowing"

It is also obviously not "all powerful" either., Actually its a nothing god. It can't even do a card trick. it no where and no body. Zero, nothing.
 Quoting: anonymous coward... 394969



Well, the above was basically me trying to expand on the theorist above me. I am still not sure what his point was, but I thought I might explore the possibility of a god that does not "evil" but merely stands back.

I guess it depends on your definition of "evil." I can't call a god who created cancer "loving," but I can intellectually understand it as a productive environment.

The problem I ran into -- that my little essay above begins to explore -- is that once you imagine a God who lauds free will, and who has created a world with challenges for the exercise for intelligence, you take the stated purpose of religions out of the picture.

It seems obvious such a world was designed for the benefit of those in that world. We apply our free will and our intelligence towards improving our lots, and the conditions of all humanity (and, perhaps, one day, towards creatures further down the sentience chain as well).

There is no reason to apply that energy and intelligence towards some theoretical life after death.

But even more; in setting up such a set of ground conditions, our theoretical God makes himself unnecessary to the process at all. The world operates without need of a God. The world could even have come to its present shape without need of a god.


Free will, if extrapolated far enough, frees you from requiring a Sky Fairy in the first place.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
This sounds like you are ascribing all "evil" to free will.

At first it looks defensible. God makes the world. He then lets humanity chose what they will do. Some chose violence, torture, self-destruction, etc.

But let's take a closer look at what lies within those choices. I can chose not to apply violence to my fellow humans. Can I chose not to have a virus apply violence to my intestinal tract? Can I chose whether the tiger attacks me? Well -- we might think about applying free will to the tiger. But, being a carnivore, the only path that leads that tiger away from predation is one of self-destruction. Did God set up a world in which the tiger is either damned, or dead? Seems a little pointless to me but anyhow...
 Quoting: nomuse (NLI) 411948



oh, ok......your perception is that an animal attacking you and an intestinal virus are both evil (satanic) acts.



So, again, God has created a world in which being an intelligent, free-willed individual is rewarded. In which morality itself is rewarded. And it requires no external system of checks and balances, awards and punishments.

Until a religious person comes along with the perfect escape clause.
 Quoting: nomuse (NLI) 411948



Which, from your perspective, is what exactly?
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