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The Atheist's Riddle...

 
nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 411948
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04/09/2008 09:35 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
oh, ok......your perception is that an animal attacking you and an intestinal virus are both evil (satanic) acts.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 406731


That is a plausible argument as well.

You can argue "God created fluffy bunnies, but the Devil created tapeworms."

Or you can be a little more subtle and say "God created fluffy bunnies, and Adam, but Adam turned out to be an ass and he let the Devil in/forced god to make tapeworms."

(A variation of the above is "Tapeworms were peaceful frolicking vegetarians until Adam fucked it up.")

Of course the whole Original Sin question has not a little of the "Can He create a rock so heavy He can't lift it?" problem. Perhaps best analogy is more of a Pygmalion myth; God wants to be honestly loved, so he creates in Man the ability to reject him. This is certainly preferable to a God that creates creatures programmed to love Him!

This all still, however, calls into question why He bothered creating a world as well. If all you need is Adam, deciding (free will) whether to love you or not, what need you, or Adam, with a complex world with its own moral challenges?



Thus, an alternate idea; God creates a world that is neither paradise nor paradise lost, but one filled with challenges. Tapeworms are there to help humans find moral choices.

But then we smack into, again, the place where I part company with organized religion. Which is, that all of these choices on Earth are treated merely as classroom exercises; as precursors to the only choice that matters.

And that final choice; to love or not love this God of yours, is to be done precisely without most of the ways or tools we use to look at everything on the Earth. It is a choice that must be made blind.
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2008 09:37 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
The starting point of this discussion is my central thesis, which is:

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

Perry Marshall

[link to www.cosmicfingerprints.com]
 Quoting: Perry Marshall 158854

Point 1 to point 2 is a nonsequitor. No need to disprove it.
nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 411948
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04/09/2008 09:41 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
Until a religious person comes along with the perfect escape clause.



Which, from your perspective, is what exactly?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 406731



I have heard this directly from at least two preachers, in front of their regular congregations, as part of services;

"Don't do good works. Murder, lie, steal. And just before you die, accept the Lord as your Savior. And off to Heaven you go!"

(Paraphrased -- but not as much as you might think!)



That's the hideousness of the escape clause. It absolves you from any actions taken in the world God apparently took so much effort to create; because all that really matters to Him is what happens after you are dead.

(This would seem to be contradicted by a God who was busy saving Moses and smiting Sodom and all that biz. Well, maybe it took him a while to back off from his shiny new world and really let Humans go wild on it.)
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2008 09:42 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
The starting point of this discussion is my central thesis, which is:

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

Perry Marshall

[link to www.cosmicfingerprints.com]
 Quoting: Perry Marshall 158854



That is all well and good but this "designer" would be just as complex or MORE complex than we are, so who designed the designer? This is the problem with theories like this, you want a sky hook instead of a bunch of small steps to explain complexity.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 406731
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04/09/2008 09:42 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
oh, ok......your perception is that an animal attacking you and an intestinal virus are both evil (satanic) acts.


That is a plausible argument as well.

You can argue "God created fluffy bunnies, but the Devil created tapeworms."


 Quoting: nomuse (NLI) 411948


I'm sorry, but you were first to classify things into categories of good and evil, not me.




It actually appears that you're arguing with yourself over faceted problems that this world presents to your ego.
nomuse (NLI)
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04/09/2008 09:47 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
Heh.

Re the OP's #2:

Random processes can duplicate the symbol systems of a code. Think of a cloud in the shape of a letter -- (or a hair on a piece of film that looks like a letter "C").

The natural world also contains symbolic abstractions that communicate information. Take the coloring on a poisonous amphibian. The coloring is not the poison, but it is an unambiguous symbol meaning "look out; poison is here!"

Of course symbolic abstractions have nothing to do with DNA. Just pointing out yet another way the point was not thought out clearly.
nomuse (NLI)
User ID: 411948
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04/09/2008 09:50 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
oh, ok......your perception is that an animal attacking you and an intestinal virus are both evil (satanic) acts.


That is a plausible argument as well.

You can argue "God created fluffy bunnies, but the Devil created tapeworms."




I'm sorry, but you were first to classify things into categories of good and evil, not me.




It actually appears that you're arguing with yourself over faceted problems that this world presents to your ego.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 406731



No, I'm trying to respond to your posts. Unfortunately you haven't given me much to understand of what point you wish to make. For that matter, it would be easier if you would pick a name -- makes it harder to figure out who is saying what.



(My "NLI" means "not logged in"; I got tired of having to log back in every few minutes on the old GLP software and just stopped trying. I am, however, a long-term registered user.)
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 193848
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04/09/2008 09:53 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
The starting point of this discussion is my central thesis, which is:

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

Perry Marshall

[link to www.cosmicfingerprints.com]


First you would have to prove that DNA is a 'code'. I think you'll find it's no such thing but rather it's a means of replicating a structure. If you like it's more akin to how a crystal grows.

Or would you argue that crystals are the product of an intelegent force?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 259114


Comparing crystals to DNA is like comparing Tinker Toys to the guts of a Boeing 747. That's called hand-waving where I come from.
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2008 10:00 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
The only way christers can prove they have a god, is to drag its sorry ass down here on earth for all to see.

Of course they can't do that because their invisible god is non existent.

No real god could be such a nasty lousy murderous scum bag god as the stinking bible god.

It slaughtered every living thing on earth with it's flood. Then it once blew through Egypt and murdered every first born child including all first born animals.

That sort of god is an insame maniac. It can go f itself.
 Quoting: anonymous coward 394969

Your concept of god or the "Source" is flawed. You probably went to church at some time during your childhood. Expand your "consciousness."
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2008 10:10 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
What IS the mind and what is it that observes? Consciousness is the one thing we can be sure of.

Does ether have a code?

Actually, yes we are all knowing. That consciousness we are a part of makes it so.
Anonymous Coward
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Sweden
04/09/2008 10:11 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
Traditional "primordial soup" theory does not explain how life arose from NO life.

WHY or HOW would life ( even IF it was accidentally created by lightning striking a pond full of chemicals and proteins ) be able to "replicate" itself ???

I believe a Creator answers all questions, except...

...how could the Creator not have had an "origin" ??

But if there is no Creator, how did mass and energy come into existence ??

If evolution is true, which arose first, an orifice to take in nourishment or a digestive system ?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 150446


If the Creator had an origin then he was created and therefore he cannot be God, tis not so.

Anything that doesn't have all information and has always existed can be the Creator God.
So God always existed and he knows all things and has all power.
nomuse (NLI)
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04/09/2008 10:20 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
Comparing crystals to DNA is like comparing Tinker Toys to the guts of a Boeing 747. That's called hand-waving where I come from.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 193848



Yes, it is comparing Tinker Toys to a Jumbo Jet. And it is the furthest thing from hand-waving there is. A 20-line java app can (and usually does) include all the elements that make up a program. It is the same animal, even though the program you compare it to may be millions of lines longer.

Tinker Toys are manufactured parts designed and built to tolerances to fit together, and to operate under specific environmental stresses (summed up mostly as; "being played with.")

In comparison a great many of the parts of a 747 are not custom built, but they are in sub-assemblies that are quite custom -- as well as of course the many fabrications that are specific to not just that aircraft but that variation and the specific manufacturer and details of that particular airframe as assembled.

Do not be confused by complexity.



Besides, the analogy was not that of DNA to seed crystal or catalyst; it was of the way protein interactions are governed by a set of rules in the same way crystal formation is, or fluid dynamics, or orbital dynamics. In all of these one can find fascinatingly complex patterns arising randomly that have superficial similarities to human-created artifacts.
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2008 10:23 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
For that matter, it would be easier if you would pick a name -- makes it harder to figure out who is saying what.



 Quoting: nomuse (NLI) 411948



Hi Muse, I'm 406731, glad to meet you.





*extends right hand*
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2008 10:29 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
OP, you've only observed materiality within this magnetosphere. What about beyond?
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2008 10:33 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
Here is my answer, OP, but it doesn't prove there is or isn't a creative intelligence, because you can't see it, but you can observe it. It's consciousness.
Anonymous Coward
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04/09/2008 10:38 PM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
There must be communication between water molecules.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 413263
United Kingdom
04/11/2008 09:58 AM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
The starting point of this discussion is my central thesis, which is:

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

Perry Marshall

[link to www.cosmicfingerprints.com]
 Quoting: Perry Marshall 158854


What is your evidence that DNA is any of "a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism"?

You need to provide that evidence and it needs to be irrefutable or else your hypothesis falls over at the first step.

*IF* DNA is "a code", then that would prove that a code has been produced the random process of Natural Selection. Hence your hypothesis would fall over at the second step even if it did not at the first.

Therefore your conclusion is entirely false.
Anonymous Coward
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04/11/2008 10:01 AM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
 Quoting: Perry Marshall 158854


OMG. You can't be this friggin' stupid...can you?!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 290322
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04/11/2008 10:02 AM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
Here, OP. This thread refutes all your claims.

[link to www.stumbleupon.com]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 413263
United Kingdom
04/11/2008 10:06 AM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
But if there is no Creator, how did mass and energy come into existence ??
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 412137


The fact that mass and energy exist now is evidence only that they exist now, not that they were at some fixed point in the past 'created'. There is no evidence that mass and energy were ever 'created' hence there is no evidence to support the hypothesis of their 'creator'.
Anonymous Coward
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04/11/2008 10:09 AM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
...you can't see it, but you can observe it...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 403022


How can anyone possibly "observe" what they cannot "see"?

Observation and seeing are one and the same thing.
Anonymous Coward
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04/11/2008 10:13 AM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
The starting point of this discussion is my central thesis, which is:

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

Perry Marshall

[link to www.cosmicfingerprints.com]


First you would have to prove that DNA is a 'code'. I think you'll find it's no such thing but rather it's a means of replicating a structure. If you like it's more akin to how a crystal grows.

Or would you argue that crystals are the product of an intelegent force?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 259114



[link to www.amazon.com]
Anonymous Coward
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Russian Federation
04/11/2008 10:21 AM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
And does nobody want to challenge me on evolved computer code?
 Quoting: Thanatos


Well computer code could not exist without there being a computer and who built that computer?
Anonymous Coward
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04/11/2008 10:53 AM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
And does nobody want to challenge me on evolved computer code?

Well computer code could not exist without there being a computer and who built that computer?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 405017


"Computer code" is not DNA.
LouisWinthorpeIII

User ID: 384893
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04/11/2008 10:56 AM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
So logically crystals must be "designed", like all lattice structures?

lol what about planets? Orbits?

I thought the flat earthers were still reeling from the discovery that orbits are not in perfect concentric circles?

Since when were the flat earthers compatable with a chaotic universe?
"I don't know which was scarier...the speech...or the Congress cheering it. He evoked Lincoln. Whenever a President is going to get us into serious trouble...they always use Lincoln."
-2010
Anonymous Coward
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04/11/2008 11:17 AM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
There must be communication between water molecules.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 403022


They're telling one another what a moron you are.
Anonymous Coward
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04/11/2008 11:29 AM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
The starting point of this discussion is my central thesis, which is:

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

Perry Marshall

[link to www.cosmicfingerprints.com]



You think inside a box looking for proof of God. Given the errors and flaws inherent in the DNA model God was more likely a committee.
 Quoting: Prof-Rabbit 148352



First I can not belive that someone would compaire DNA to a crystal and second DNA was not flawed in the begining.

We who are christians understood from the Bible that someone would come and start a new world wide belief and that the people would be in ah of him and his teachings.
What really botherd me was I went to the book store to buy it so I would no what we are up agenst. Not even thinking how the shop keeper of the store could be in to this. I made a few coments then she let me know she was reading it. So I talked to her like I want the book because I want to understand it. She started to talk about how it is changing her life and it was like a glaze came over her eyes and she just started going on about it. Then I asked her so do you go to church? Yes she said yes im a lutheran. I just smiled. I did not want to say anymore until I had read it.
After reading it I was and am in shock. There is some really bad stuff in it that are going to decive sooooo many people. One of the most starteling statements in it is on page 21 chapter 1 EVOLVE OR DIE In the bible it says that the people who do not except the new way of thinking will be killed. hmmmmmmmmmm I know my spelling and grammer are very poor but my words are true.......................

Wish We'd All Been Ready


Life was filled with guns and war
and all of us got trampled on the floor
I wish we'd all been ready

Children died the days grew cold
a piece of bread could buy a bag of gold
I wish we'd all been ready

There's no time to change your mind
the Son has come and you've been left behind

A man and wife asleep in bed
she hears a noise and turns her head he's gone
I wish we'd all been ready

Two men walking up a hill
one disappears and one's left standing still
I wish we'd all been ready

There's no time to change your mind
the Son has come and you've been left behind

Children died the days grew cold
a piece of bread could buy a bag of gold
I wish we'd all been ready

There's no time to change your mind
the Son has come and you've been left behind


The Father spoke
the demons dined
how could you
have been so blind

There's no time to change your mind
the Son has come and you've been left behind

I hope we'll all be ready
you've been left behind
I hope we'll all be ready
you've been left behind
I hope we'll all be ready
you've been left behind
Anonymous Coward
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United Kingdom
04/11/2008 11:36 AM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
...DNA was not flawed in the begining.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 413326


What "beginning" was that?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 413263
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04/11/2008 11:40 AM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
The starting point of this discussion is my central thesis, which is:

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

Perry Marshall

[link to www.cosmicfingerprints.com]


What is your evidence that DNA is any of "a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism"?

You need to provide that evidence and it needs to be irrefutable or else your hypothesis falls over at the first step.

*IF* DNA is "a code", then that would prove that a code has been produced the random process of Natural Selection. Hence your hypothesis would fall over at the second step even if it did not at the first.

Therefore your conclusion is entirely false.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 413263


I love the way religious fruitcakes just ignore difficult questions such as those I have asked above. If nothing else proves them to be a pack of devious liars, that does.
Anonymous Coward
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04/11/2008 11:42 AM
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Re: The Atheist's Riddle...
...DNA was not flawed in the begining.


What "beginning" was that?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 413263


I'm betting that not one of the many religiomaniacs who post here will attempt to answer the above question.
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