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Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit

 
Orion Scope Guy
User ID: 291612
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12/08/2007 01:01 AM
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Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
When you buy a telescope, the instructions they give you for the alignment and navigation of your scope do not require star names or coordinates. You are simply required to aim your scope toward any 3 star cluster and the scope automatically processes them and their pattern and then has its bearing via the software and star positions contained in its memory.

The scope recognizes and identifies three star groups with incredible accuracy and yet no information on the star nems etc. It is not your position on earth that is relevant to the scope accuracy, but the stars you point it at. Therefore, it does not matter where you are, you just aim the scope at any 3 stars and it knows them and proceeds from there. The Earth could flip upside down in its orbit and yet you would be able to point your scope at three stars and navigate with no difficulty

The Sun has been rising in strange places and the moon has been odd at times, and this is true. Even the inuit tribes of Alaska and northern Canada have stated that they had nearly an extra hour of daylight and that the sun was rising further north than ever documented in tribal history.

The Earth may move all it wants, but the stars positions remain the same, just as they have for centuries.
Thoth

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12/08/2007 01:03 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
If the earth flipped over, we would see the southern cross in our North American skies.
All is fair in love & war.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2007 01:06 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
... not if the earth only flips 90 degrees, which is the usual variation, so that the equatorial bulge is corrected and the planet reverts to an ideal spheroid.

This planet flips exactly 90 degrees every 25,900 years, so that it stays round.


Chai
Thoth

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12/08/2007 01:07 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
You mean like Uranus is, spinning on its side?
All is fair in love & war.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/08/2007 01:07 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
If the earth flipped over, we would see the southern cross in our North American skies.
 Quoting: Thoth


That would be cool...

Not to mention that the Bible specifically states that in the End, God will flip the earth upside down and move it from its place(Its orbit)

You would also see the sun rise in the West...

Interesting how scientists are now speaking very animatedly about the polar reversal and how the fact that the sun and the Earth going through it at the same time may cause the earth to roll upside down in its orbit.
Thoth

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12/08/2007 01:10 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
Venus has a reverse spin with a day longer than its year.
Uranus spins on its side nearly
All other planets spin the same way we do with variations in the number of the degrees off of straight up.
All is fair in love & war.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2007 01:12 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
what a stupid idea for a thread..
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2007 01:15 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
what a stupid idea for a thread..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 271167


youre stupid
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2007 01:31 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
When you buy a telescope, the instructions they give you for the alignment and navigation of your scope do not require star names or coordinates. You are simply required to aim your scope toward any 3 star cluster and the scope automatically processes them and their pattern and then has its bearing via the software and star positions contained in its memory.
 Quoting: Orion Scope Guy 291612

Bullshit.

You align the scope to the north, THEN align it to 2 or 3 DIFFERENT stars, and YOU tell it which stars.

THEN it will be able to go to any other astronomical objects you want.


dumbass


.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/08/2007 01:36 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
what a stupid idea for a thread..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 271167

Only to the ignorant and uneducated. The only thing that is stupid is the amazing fact that you came into a thread you obviously had no interest in whatsoever, simply to post some non-sensical teenage drivelthwak

Had you seen all the heated discussion about the moon in weird places and the sun too far North, the number one rebuttal was that the go-to telescopes still worked fine so the earth could not be moving or rolling in its orbit.

So what did we learn here? That you are a bored idiot with nothing better to do than to set your downrigger to max and go trolling. applause You won the door prize ignoramus
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/08/2007 01:38 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
When you buy a telescope, the instructions they give you for the alignment and navigation of your scope do not require star names or coordinates. You are simply required to aim your scope toward any 3 star cluster and the scope automatically processes them and their pattern and then has its bearing via the software and star positions contained in its memory.

Bullshit.

You align the scope to the north, THEN align it to 2 or 3 DIFFERENT stars, and YOU tell it which stars.

THEN it will be able to go to any other astronomical objects you want.


dumbass


.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 326217

Step up with the technology. 3 star patterns are programmed into the scopes
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2007 01:41 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
When you buy a telescope, the instructions they give you for the alignment and navigation of your scope do not require star names or coordinates. You are simply required to aim your scope toward any 3 star cluster and the scope automatically processes them and their pattern and then has its bearing via the software and star positions contained in its memory.

The scope recognizes and identifies three star groups with incredible accuracy and yet no information on the star nems etc. It is not your position on earth that is relevant to the scope accuracy, but the stars you point it at. Therefore, it does not matter where you are, you just aim the scope at any 3 stars and it knows them and proceeds from there. The Earth could flip upside down in its orbit and yet you would be able to point your scope at three stars and navigate with no difficulty
 Quoting: Orion Scope Guy 291612


You are exactly wrong.

Every GOTO telescope makes four basic assumptions, that cannot be changed.

1) The Earth moves at a predictable rate around its axis.

2) The Earth moves at a predictable rate around the Sun.

3) The Pole lines up with the North Star.

4) The planets have predictable orbits around the Sun.

From here on in, all the telescope does is math. Thus, it has *no way* to compensate for any unpredictable motion of any of those four rules. Thus, if anything *were* wrong with those four things, the telescope *has no way to compensate.* None. Zip. Zero. Nada.

Thus, if GOTOs are functioning, those four assumptions *must not* have changed.

If claims were correct about speed variance in our rotation about our axis, assumption one would fail, and NO GOTO would function. They do function, so assumption one is correct.

If claims were correct about orbit halting, assumption two would fail, and no constellation would be in the correct spot, nor would any summer constellation be visible in the northern hemisphere sky, and thus NO GOTO would function. They do function, so assumption two is correct.

If claims were correct about the Earth tilting from and leaning unpredictably, assumption three would fail; the sky would spin around an unpredictable point, and NO GOTO would function. They do function, so assumption three is correct.

If claims were correct about unpredictable motion of any of the other planets, assumption four would fail, and those planets would be impossible for the GOTO to track; thus no GOTO would function. They do function, so assumption four is correct.

Therefore, matching the four assumptions:

1) The Earth´s rotation remains precisely as predicted.

2) The Earth´s position in orbit around the sun is exactly as predicted.

3) The North Star remains at the apparent center of Earth´s rotation.

4) The planets are all precisely where they belong; exactly as predicted.
 Quoting: Some GLP Astronomy dude from a few years ago


That explains it pretty well.


The Sun has been rising in strange places and the moon has been odd at times, and this is true. Even the inuit tribes of Alaska and northern Canada have stated that they had nearly an extra hour of daylight and that the sun was rising further north than ever documented in tribal history.
 Quoting: Orion Scope Guy 291612


But this is exactly the opposite of your first paragraph. If this were so, even after you aligned on the three stars with your Orion, how would it KNOW thigs were moving differently and still track? Is it a psychic telescope?

The short answer is that it couldn't. So, if it's working, and tracking appropriately, everything is moving predictably.

Try this: align on some stars in the early morning, say about 4 AM. Before sunrise, ask the telescope to lock on and track the Sun. (Use the appropriate filters if you are going to look through it!) You will find that the telescope will lock on and follow its rise without a problem.

If the Sun were rising in 'strange places,' how could it do this?

The Earth may move all it wants, but the stars positions remain the same, just as they have for centuries.
 Quoting: Orion Scope Guy 291612


They stay in the same place vis-a-vie each OTHER, but their MOTION depends on the VERY predictable motions of the Earth. So, if you aligned your telescope, and the Earth were moving in these unpredictable ways, in fairly short order your telescope would track nothing at all. When you'd select an object, it would happily lock onto a spot, and there'd be nothing there. The error would compound by the minute.

So, the fact that your telescope tracks for any length of time demonstrates that the Earth's motion remains predictable.

Does that make sense to you?
Thoth

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12/08/2007 01:47 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
When you buy a telescope, the instructions they give you for the alignment and navigation of your scope do not require star names or coordinates. You are simply required to aim your scope toward any 3 star cluster and the scope automatically processes them and their pattern and then has its bearing via the software and star positions contained in its memory.

The scope recognizes and identifies three star groups with incredible accuracy and yet no information on the star nems etc. It is not your position on earth that is relevant to the scope accuracy, but the stars you point it at. Therefore, it does not matter where you are, you just aim the scope at any 3 stars and it knows them and proceeds from there. The Earth could flip upside down in its orbit and yet you would be able to point your scope at three stars and navigate with no difficulty


You are exactly wrong.


Every GOTO telescope makes four basic assumptions, that cannot be changed.

1) The Earth moves at a predictable rate around its axis.

2) The Earth moves at a predictable rate around the Sun.

3) The Pole lines up with the North Star.

4) The planets have predictable orbits around the Sun.

From here on in, all the telescope does is math. Thus, it has *no way* to compensate for any unpredictable motion of any of those four rules. Thus, if anything *were* wrong with those four things, the telescope *has no way to compensate.* None. Zip. Zero. Nada.

Thus, if GOTOs are functioning, those four assumptions *must not* have changed.

If claims were correct about speed variance in our rotation about our axis, assumption one would fail, and NO GOTO would function. They do function, so assumption one is correct.

If claims were correct about orbit halting, assumption two would fail, and no constellation would be in the correct spot, nor would any summer constellation be visible in the northern hemisphere sky, and thus NO GOTO would function. They do function, so assumption two is correct.

If claims were correct about the Earth tilting from and leaning unpredictably, assumption three would fail; the sky would spin around an unpredictable point, and NO GOTO would function. They do function, so assumption three is correct.

If claims were correct about unpredictable motion of any of the other planets, assumption four would fail, and those planets would be impossible for the GOTO to track; thus no GOTO would function. They do function, so assumption four is correct.

Therefore, matching the four assumptions:

1) The Earth´s rotation remains precisely as predicted.

2) The Earth´s position in orbit around the sun is exactly as predicted.

3) The North Star remains at the apparent center of Earth´s rotation.

4) The planets are all precisely where they belong; exactly as predicted.


That explains it pretty well.



The Sun has been rising in strange places and the moon has been odd at times, and this is true. Even the inuit tribes of Alaska and northern Canada have stated that they had nearly an extra hour of daylight and that the sun was rising further north than ever documented in tribal history.


But this is exactly the opposite of your first paragraph. If this were so, even after you aligned on the three stars with your Orion, how would it KNOW thigs were moving differently and still track? Is it a psychic telescope?

The short answer is that it couldn't. So, if it's working, and tracking appropriately, everything is moving predictably.

Try this: align on some stars in the early morning, say about 4 AM. Before sunrise, ask the telescope to lock on and track the Sun. (Use the appropriate filters if you are going to look through it!) You will find that the telescope will lock on and follow its rise without a problem.

If the Sun were rising in 'strange places,' how could it do this?


The Earth may move all it wants, but the stars positions remain the same, just as they have for centuries.


They stay in the same place vis-a-vie each OTHER, but their MOTION depends on the VERY predictable motions of the Earth. So, if you aligned your telescope, and the Earth were moving in these unpredictable ways, in fairly short order your telescope would track nothing at all. When you'd select an object, it would happily lock onto a spot, and there'd be nothing there. The error would compound by the minute.

So, the fact that your telescope tracks for any length of time demonstrates that the Earth's motion remains predictable.

Does that make sense to you?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 74444

Thank you for that information.
All is fair in love & war.
Orion Scope Guy (OP)
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12/08/2007 02:04 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
Well, I had a bit of fun playing with the 3 star cluster(at one time) thing, but it mine as well be. However, the new scope I am looking at right now and preparing to order is capable of what I stated and without the names of the stars or anything, so do a little bit more research before you snap someones head off.

Set up is this simple.

Take scope out of car

Unpack and set up tripod

Point at any three bright stars sequentially, no names required.

Enjoy the tour.

It is the Celestron CPC series. Specifically the CPC 800 XLT, 925 XLT and the 1100 XLT. I am kinda leaning toward the 1100...

BTW, my claims about the alignment is true to form. You can dial in all the other crud you want, but as long as you are giving your telescope its bearing based on several objects off of this planet, the computer is simply programmed to go off the map it has in relation to those objects you aligned it with.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2007 02:06 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
May I agree with the OP 2 stars.


In order to use the GOTO aspects of the telescope, the astronomer must work with the GOTO software to first calibrate it to the exact settings of his location and the time. This will allow the computer to know where in the sky certain objects are, as the position of stars is always relative to time of night, season, and actual physical location.

Once the software is calibrated, the astronomer is able to search through the databases of the software, and determine what objects he wishes to look at. Once he has set his choices, the computer will automatically set his telescope to that position. He can set the telescope to track a certain object as it moves through the sky. He can also have some personal control over the telescope himself through the hand pad.
[link to www.associatedcontent.com]

Alignment Procedure

In order for a GOTO telescope to accurately point to objects in the sky, it must first be aligned with two known positions (stars) in the sky. With this information the telescope can create a model of the sky, which it uses to locate any object with known coordinates. The most common way to align a GOTO telescope is the 2 Star Alignment. The GOTO telescope will ask the user to input simple information such as Date, Time and Location - This basic information will have the telescope roughly aligned. Now it will need to be fine-tuned. Based on the information you have provided the telescope it will automatically select a bright star that is above the horizon and start moving towards it. This movement of the telescope is known as slewing . At this point the telescope is only roughly aligned, so the alignment star should only be close to the field of view of the Finder Scope. Once finished moving, the display will ask you to use the hand controller to center the selected star in the view of the eyepiece. Centering the star in the eyepiece will now give the telescope an extremely accurate reference point.

After the first alignment star has been entered the telescope will automatically slew to a second alignment star and have you repeat the same procedure for that star. When the telescope has been aligned to both stars the display will tell you it is finished its alignment and you are now ready to find your first object!
Alignment Procedure

In order for a GOTO telescope to accurately point to objects in the sky, it must first be aligned with two known positions (stars) in the sky. With this information the telescope can create a model of the sky, which it uses to locate any object with known coordinates. The most common way to align a GOTO telescope is the 2 Star Alignment. The GOTO telescope will ask the user to input simple information such as Date, Time and Location - This basic information will have the telescope roughly aligned. Now it will need to be fine-tuned. Based on the information you have provided the telescope it will automatically select a bright star that is above the horizon and start moving towards it. This movement of the telescope is known as slewing . At this point the telescope is only roughly aligned, so the alignment star should only be close to the field of view of the Finder Scope. Once finished moving, the display will ask you to use the hand controller to center the selected star in the view of the eyepiece. Centering the star in the eyepiece will now give the telescope an extremely accurate reference point.

After the first alignment star has been entered the telescope will automatically slew to a second alignment star and have you repeat the same procedure for that star. When the telescope has been aligned to both stars the display will tell you it is finished its alignment and you are now ready to find your first object!
[link to www.scopes-and-optics.com]
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2007 02:12 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
Well, I had a bit of fun playing with the 3 star cluster(at one time) thing, but it mine as well be. However, the new scope I am looking at right now and preparing to order is capable of what I stated and without the names of the stars or anything, so do a little bit more research before you snap someones head off.
 Quoting: Orion Scope Guy 291612


There was no head snapping involved -- and I apologize for it coming off that way. There was no intent -- just explanation.

Set up is this simple.

Take scope out of car

Unpack and set up tripod

Point at any three bright stars sequentially, no names required.

Enjoy the tour.
 Quoting: Orion Scope Guy 291612


Using the GPS models, the telescope will STILL be the one to choose which stars it is aligning to, I believe. It will have a good idea on what's overhead by the lat, long, time, and date, but will probably need a little interaction to be uber-accurate.

That said, if the Earth did flip, the telescope would be able to track the stars for the moment it was aligned. After that it would fail, because the same assumptions are built into the GPS models as older GOTOs.

It is the Celestron CPC series. Specifically the CPC 800 XLT, 925 XLT and the 1100 XLT. I am kinda leaning toward the 1100...
 Quoting: Orion Scope Guy 291612


I'll have a look. Sounds nifty. But *eyepieces* is where it's at. Get a lot of different, varied ones -- and a good, wide planetary eyepiece. Makes all the difference in the world.

BTW, my claims about the alignment is true to form. You can dial in all the other crud you want, but as long as you are giving your telescope its bearing based on several objects off of this planet, the computer is simply programmed to go off the map it has in relation to those objects you aligned it with.
 Quoting: Orion Scope Guy 291612


Exactly. But if the "map," overhead, is moving in weird unpredictable ways (as you implied with the Sun rising in 'strange places') there isn't any way for the telescope to figure it out. It's still blind as a bat, it just has a very accurate map in its brain, and very precise knowledge of how the sky is SUPPOSED to move. It can't adapt to any weird motion -- it doesn't even have a way to SENSE weird motion.

Anyhow -- I didn't mean to come off like I was insulting you. Apologies.
Free Store
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12/08/2007 02:13 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
Any questions?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 291612
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12/08/2007 02:23 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
When you buy a telescope, the instructions they give you for the alignment and navigation of your scope do not require star names or coordinates. You are simply required to aim your scope toward any 3 star cluster and the scope automatically processes them and their pattern and then has its bearing via the software and star positions contained in its memory.

The scope recognizes and identifies three star groups with incredible accuracy and yet no information on the star nems etc. It is not your position on earth that is relevant to the scope accuracy, but the stars you point it at. Therefore, it does not matter where you are, you just aim the scope at any 3 stars and it knows them and proceeds from there. The Earth could flip upside down in its orbit and yet you would be able to point your scope at three stars and navigate with no difficulty


You are exactly wrong.


Every GOTO telescope makes four basic assumptions, that cannot be changed.

1) The Earth moves at a predictable rate around its axis.

2) The Earth moves at a predictable rate around the Sun.

3) The Pole lines up with the North Star.

4) The planets have predictable orbits around the Sun.

From here on in, all the telescope does is math. Thus, it has *no way* to compensate for any unpredictable motion of any of those four rules. Thus, if anything *were* wrong with those four things, the telescope *has no way to compensate.* None. Zip. Zero. Nada.

Thus, if GOTOs are functioning, those four assumptions *must not* have changed.

If claims were correct about speed variance in our rotation about our axis, assumption one would fail, and NO GOTO would function. They do function, so assumption one is correct.

If claims were correct about orbit halting, assumption two would fail, and no constellation would be in the correct spot, nor would any summer constellation be visible in the northern hemisphere sky, and thus NO GOTO would function. They do function, so assumption two is correct.

If claims were correct about the Earth tilting from and leaning unpredictably, assumption three would fail; the sky would spin around an unpredictable point, and NO GOTO would function. They do function, so assumption three is correct.

If claims were correct about unpredictable motion of any of the other planets, assumption four would fail, and those planets would be impossible for the GOTO to track; thus no GOTO would function. They do function, so assumption four is correct.

Therefore, matching the four assumptions:

1) The Earth´s rotation remains precisely as predicted.

2) The Earth´s position in orbit around the sun is exactly as predicted.

3) The North Star remains at the apparent center of Earth´s rotation.

4) The planets are all precisely where they belong; exactly as predicted.


That explains it pretty well.



The Sun has been rising in strange places and the moon has been odd at times, and this is true. Even the inuit tribes of Alaska and northern Canada have stated that they had nearly an extra hour of daylight and that the sun was rising further north than ever documented in tribal history.


But this is exactly the opposite of your first paragraph. If this were so, even after you aligned on the three stars with your Orion, how would it KNOW thigs were moving differently and still track? Is it a psychic telescope?

The short answer is that it couldn't. So, if it's working, and tracking appropriately, everything is moving predictably.

Try this: align on some stars in the early morning, say about 4 AM. Before sunrise, ask the telescope to lock on and track the Sun. (Use the appropriate filters if you are going to look through it!) You will find that the telescope will lock on and follow its rise without a problem.

If the Sun were rising in 'strange places,' how could it do this?


The Earth may move all it wants, but the stars positions remain the same, just as they have for centuries.


They stay in the same place vis-a-vie each OTHER, but their MOTION depends on the VERY predictable motions of the Earth. So, if you aligned your telescope, and the Earth were moving in these unpredictable ways, in fairly short order your telescope would track nothing at all. When you'd select an object, it would happily lock onto a spot, and there'd be nothing there. The error would compound by the minute.

So, the fact that your telescope tracks for any length of time demonstrates that the Earth's motion remains predictable.

Does that make sense to you?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 74444

Your theory regarding the tracking is plausible and easily argued, however it would only apply if the said activity and movement were happening after you had calibrated the scope and were viewing.

To reply regarding these constantss that we so depend on for accuracy. That fact became fiction last year when Chandlers Wobble, a well known constant "Jelly Bean wobble" the Earth has in its rotation stopped suddenly and entirely last year [link to en.wikipedia.org] and was the first time ever recorded and yet the scopes across the globe still found their targets and navigated and tracked them fine.

Bottom line is that you are aligning your scope to objects not affected by this world or it burps and belches, of which the computer on board has a map. Have map and earth rotation constant and its go time. Now if something were to happen while you were viewing, you may notice it, but more than likely you will be like the rest of the world and simply dismiss it. Once you realign the scope with its required three stars, it is back to tracking. Star position in relation to each other is the key for the tracking to work combined with the earths rotation which gives us the timing
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/08/2007 02:26 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
Your theory regarding the tracking is plausible and easily argued, however it would only apply if the said activity and movement were happening after you had calibrated the scope and were viewing.

To reply regarding these constantss that we so depend on for accuracy. That fact became fiction last year when Chandlers Wobble, a well known constant "Jelly Bean wobble" the Earth has in its rotation stopped suddenly and entirely last year [link to en.wikipedia.org] and was the first time ever recorded and yet the scopes across the globe still found their targets and navigated and tracked them fine.

Bottom line is that you are aligning your scope to objects not affected by this world or it burps and belches, of which the computer on board has a map. Have map and earth rotation constant and its go time. Now if something were to happen while you were viewing, you may notice it, but more than likely you will be like the rest of the world and simply dismiss it. Once you realign the scope with its required three stars, it is back to tracking. Star position in relation to each other is the key for the tracking to work combined with the earths rotation which gives us the timing
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 291612

I am not saying all of my premises are correct, but doesn;t this make sense as to why???
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2007 02:31 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
Bottom line is that you are aligning your scope to objects not affected by this world or it burps and belches, of which the computer on board has a map.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 291612


What motions of ANY of those objects would not be affected by the motions of the Earth? And, remember, the effect of the Earthquake on Earth's motion was measured in the tenths of THOUSANDTHS of a degree.

If what you were saying were true, no telescope programmed pre-2004 would track accurately. And most people don't even bother updating their onboard firmware -- there's no real point, unless you are trying to track newly discovered asteroids. My neighbor's two GOTOs haven't been updated since 1998.

Have map and earth rotation constant and its go time. Now if something were to happen while you were viewing, you may notice it, but more than likely you will be like the rest of the world and simply dismiss it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 291612


Any astrophotographer would disagree -- particularly using older film style cameras, with exposures measured in hours. The slightest change or unpredictable movement in the heavens would ruin the shot.

Once you realign the scope with its required three stars, it is back to tracking. Star position in relation to each other is the key for the tracking to work combined with the earths rotation which gives us the timing
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 291612


The Earth's motions are the key -- it's the most motion you have to compensate FOR. And the only way to compensate for it is because of its utter predictability.

Suppose that the Earth flipped 90 degrees. So now the North Star is not the apparent center of rotation of the sky, and some unpredictable point 90 degrees away from it is now the center.

How would the telescope *learn* this?
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2007 02:33 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
GPS tracks right down to the feet. So the program relies on minute by minute information.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2007 02:41 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
GPS tracks right down to the feet. So the program relies on minute by minute information.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 142947


I THINK the GPS is only used for the inital setup -- I don't think if you put the telescope in a truck it would be able to keep aligning and realigning. But let's assume that was true.

If the Earth were moving unpredictably -- how does GPS figure that out? It uses triangulation -- and makes the same assumptions that the 'scope does.

Let's say the Earth magically halted suddenly. GPS will triangulate where you are in relation to the satellites -- but the way the GPS receiver calculates where you are on Earth would be completely wrong. Likewise, the telescope would think it was rapidly moving, at thousands of miles per hour, because the Earth suddenly stopped. Not to mention other catastrophic effects of that, anyway...

Same thing goes for flips or other unpredictable motions. There just isn't any math for predicting the unpredictable, and that's all these 'scopes do is math.

And, also, older telescopes, not using the nifty GPS tech, would certainly have no minute-by-minute information. They work on plain old gears and math. Permanently mounted telescopes, likewise, would fail altogether.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2007 02:44 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
If the Earth tipped 90 degrees, the information from GPS would be from wherever you are located .
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/08/2007 02:46 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
There was no head snapping involved -- and I apologize for it coming off that way. There was no intent -- just explanation.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 74444


Point at any three bright stars sequentially, no names required.

Enjoy the tour.

 Quoting: Orion Guy

Using the GPS models, the telescope will STILL be the one to choose which stars it is aligning to, I believe. It will have a good idea on what's overhead by the lat, long, time, and date, but will probably need a little interaction to be uber-accurate.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 74444


Actually, I am looking at the details in the Prion catalog right now and it specifically says that it is point and shoot system. It states the following ...

"Skyalign makes the often tedious initial alignment of the scope for computerized operation as easy as 1,2,3! You just aim the scope sequentially at any three bright stars or planets in the sky - and you don;teven have to know their names! Then - PRESTO! The telescope is oriented and ready to go"

That said, if the Earth did flip, the telescope would be able to track the stars for the moment it was aligned. After that it would fail, because the same assumptions are built into the GPS models as older GOTOs.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 74444

That makes sense

It is the Celestron CPC series. Specifically the CPC 800 XLT, 925 XLT and the 1100 XLT. I am kinda leaning toward the 1100...


I'll have a look. Sounds nifty. But *eyepieces* is where it's at. Get a lot of different, varied ones -- and a good, wide planetary eyepiece. Makes all the difference in the world.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 74444


Thanks for the tip. I definitely want some good eyepieces. This is my first big purchase as the scope itself will cost 2700.00 and it is a Schmidt-Cassegrain which is a new scope for me.

Exactly. But if the "map," overhead, is moving in weird unpredictable ways (as you implied with the Sun rising in 'strange places') there isn't any way for the telescope to figure it out. It's still blind as a bat, it just has a very accurate map in its brain, and very precise knowledge of how the sky is SUPPOSED to move. It can't adapt to any weird motion -- it doesn't even have a way to SENSE weird motion.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 74444

That is completely logical, but can you explain why the abrupt stoppage of Chandler's wobble did not affect anyone's scopes?? This Chandler's wobble thing is what made me begin to think this way. As long as we have star map vs. constant(ie earth rotation and timing), would it really matter where you were?

How is it that you can go anywhere on earth and have them still be accurate even though the line of sight regarding earth has change


Anyhow -- I didn't mean to come off like I was insulting you. Apologies.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 74444

That being said, no need for apologies but it was appreciated. This place has trolls with industrial downriggers so sometimes you walk in here with the gloves up so my apologies as well.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2007 02:48 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
If the Earth tipped 90 degrees, the information from GPS would be from wherever you are located .
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 142947


No, it wouldn't. Because there's no way for the GPS (specifically, the handset) to know that you've tipped.

It will show you at 90 degrees to where you actually are. The lat/long would be entirely wrong. It would correctly know where you were in space, but the assumptions built into the handset on where that space should be at that moment would be completely wrong.

Likewise, since now the Earth's spin is in a completely unpredictable direction, it can't figure that out either. It's best guess would be that you're traveling thousands of miles per hour in some random direction. It would be able to figure out that the EARTH were moving in a weird way below it. It has no way of measuring that.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/08/2007 02:50 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
Bottom line is that you are aligning your scope to objects not affected by this world or it burps and belches, of which the computer on board has a map.


What motions of ANY of those objects would not be affected by the motions of the Earth? And, remember, the effect of the Earthquake on Earth's motion was measured in the tenths of THOUSANDTHS of a degree.

If what you were saying were true, no telescope programmed pre-2004 would track accurately. And most people don't even bother updating their onboard firmware -- there's no real point, unless you are trying to track newly discovered asteroids. My neighbor's two GOTOs haven't been updated since 1998.


Have map and earth rotation constant and its go time. Now if something were to happen while you were viewing, you may notice it, but more than likely you will be like the rest of the world and simply dismiss it.


Any astrophotographer would disagree -- particularly using older film style cameras, with exposures measured in hours. The slightest change or unpredictable movement in the heavens would ruin the shot.


Once you realign the scope with its required three stars, it is back to tracking. Star position in relation to each other is the key for the tracking to work combined with the earths rotation which gives us the timing


The Earth's motions are the key -- it's the most motion you have to compensate FOR. And the only way to compensate for it is because of its utter predictability.

Suppose that the Earth flipped 90 degrees. So now the North Star is not the apparent center of rotation of the sky, and some unpredictable point 90 degrees away from it is now the center.

How would the telescope *learn* this?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 74444

Great points and duly noted...
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/08/2007 02:52 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
Anonymous Coward 74444-

Thanks for the good conversation. I have to close for now as I just looked at the time...
peace
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2007 02:53 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
If the Earth tipped 90 degrees, the information from GPS would be from wherever you are located .


No, it wouldn't. Because there's no way for the GPS (specifically, the handset) to know that you've tipped.

It will show you at 90 degrees to where you actually are. The lat/long would be entirely wrong. It would correctly know where you were in space, but the assumptions built into the handset on where that space should be at that moment would be completely wrong.

Likewise, since now the Earth's spin is in a completely unpredictable direction, it can't figure that out either. It's best guess would be that you're traveling thousands of miles per hour in some random direction. It would be able to figure out that the EARTH were moving in a weird way below it. It has no way of measuring that.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 74444


The Scope works anywhere on Earth. You name it. Set up is the same anywhere you are located.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2007 02:55 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
The lines would be different.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2007 03:08 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
Actually, I am looking at the details in the Prion catalog right now and it specifically says that it is point and shoot system. It states the following ...

"Skyalign makes the often tedious initial alignment of the scope for computerized operation as easy as 1,2,3! You just aim the scope sequentially at any three bright stars or planets in the sky - and you don;teven have to know their names! Then - PRESTO! The telescope is oriented and ready to go"
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 291612


I see. It's using your GPS to know where three bright objects OUGHT to be, then you center the objects for it, giving it VERY precise alignment. Very slick!

Thanks for the tip. I definitely want some good eyepieces. This is my first big purchase as the scope itself will cost 2700.00 and it is a Schmidt-Cassegrain which is a new scope for me.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 291612


Schmidt's do rock. But take a look at the Masutov-Cassengrains as well -- they both have strengths and weaknesses depending on what you are going to be imaging most of the time. Deep sky stuff is different than looking at nearby planets -- and you need to practice relaxing your eyes to get a sense of color. CCDs are better for that. But yous should *easily* see the Spot on Jupiter, Saturn's rings, and even the Martian poles with that one.

There was an old book called "Star Ware," by Harrington, which he used to update every year. Great book to get pre-telescope. And get a couple of issues of Sky and Telescope, too. And the telescope newsgroups are VERY friendly. Don;t hesitate to ask all SORTS of things.

That is completely logical, but can you explain why the abrupt stoppage of Chandler's wobble did not affect anyone's scopes?? This Chandler's wobble thing is what made me begin to think this way.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 291612


It got a lot of people thinking that way. But simply -- Chandler's Wobble is WAY too small to affect telescope sightings -- it's effect is usually noticeable from *millennia* to millennia.

Put it this way -- Polaris was named by the Greeks for being the pole star, some three or four thousand years ago, and it still is. But, in some TWENTY thousand years, our pole will have wandered a bit to nearly another star.

So the wobble is negligible in human lifetimes.

As long as we have star map vs. constant(ie earth rotation and timing), would it really matter where you were?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 291612


Yep! The telescope is compensating for different things -- among them include the speed at the equator versus the speed at the poles. There's about a thousand mile per hour difference, and your telescope has to be able to compensate for both, or any speed in between!

How is it that you can go anywhere on earth and have them still be accurate even though the line of sight regarding earth has change
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 291612


The same way Star Maps do. The stars are static, it just the Earth's motion that needs compensating. The scope you are eyeing (ooh, a pun!) does all that math FOR you based on your position on Earth with the GPS, the exact time and date, and with the starmap in its brain. The map it sees is a full sphere all around you -- it just knows certain objects at that moment will be beneath the horizon. The Earth is in the way of them being imaged.

So, knowing where and when you are, it'll know the sky above your head at that exact time and date -- anywhere on Earth. Cool, eh?

There's several sites that will give you Star Maps, too -- and a program I love is called Celestia -- which you can download for free, and it gives you a three-d picture of what the sky will look like, and you maneuver around using the arrow keys to represent you moving your head. VERY highly recommended.

That being said, no need for apologies but it was appreciated. This place has trolls with industrial downriggers so sometimes you walk in here with the gloves up so my apologies as well.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 291612


None necessary, but thank you as well. Wouldn't it be cool if we could all be able to be nice to each other all the time here?

Of course, I guess some poor guy got nailed to a tree for suggesting something similar...

Hope that helped out!
Danny K
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12/08/2007 03:13 AM
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Re: Why your go-to telescope is not affected even if the Earth flipped in orbit
On the other hand, the GOTO people are cozy with the powers that be and could have programed the Earth flip, the 26 degree over shift of the axis, AND the gravatATional effects of Planet X into the software ahead of time...

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