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So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator??
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Skeptical Believer
User ID: 280175
4/3/2008 3:48 AM
Report abusive post | So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator??
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The CERN people claim it's completely safe, but the consequences are Way too dire to just take this thing lightly.
I'm actually scared shitless about this. They seem so nonchalant about it, trying to compare it to particles in space and all and yet we don't even know if all the current scientific theories are completely accurate!!!
Does anyone else agree with me about this?
Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this
Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 399774
4/3/2008 3:50 AM | | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
yes! ive been thinking a lot about this lately.
may is just arounnnnd the corner... |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 329158
4/3/2008 3:50 AM | | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
Yes i agree this scares me also .There is a small chance when fired up it could take us and the entire universe with it.How could they even consider it with that being a chance.They have gone mad i tell you. |
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Clavain
User ID: 405478
4/3/2008 3:53 AM | | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
Im pretty hyped about the Large Hadron Collider, (I think this is the same thing you are talking about) its going to be amazing watching what kinds of wacky stuff is found out there. I dont think it's gonna be dangerous personally. Some even say that it is going to be the first time a rift might be opened in space-time, allowing 'something' to come back it time to our present day.... =0 |
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Skeptical Believer
User ID: 272356
4/3/2008 3:55 AM
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Yes i agree this scares me also .There is a small chance when fired up it could take us and the entire universe with it.How could they even consider it with that being a chance.They have gone mad i tell you. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 329158
That's what I'm saying...
How could this even be a consideration. It's not like it might take out a city block or a town if it goes awry, but could take the entire planet and possibly the universe!!!
Why is it so damn important to see what happened seconds after the big bang?
I'm gonna be watching this closely. Is the MSM even talking about it or were they paid to stay hushed?
Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this
Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks. |
|
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 329158
4/3/2008 3:58 AM | | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
Yes i agree this scares me also .There is a small chance when fired up it could take us and the entire universe with it.How could they even consider it with that being a chance.They have gone mad i tell you.
That's what I'm saying...
How could this even be a consideration. It's not like it might take out a city block or a town if it goes awry, but could take the entire planet and possibly the universe!!!
Why is it so damn important to see what happened seconds after the big bang?
I'm gonna be watching this closely. Is the MSM even talking about it or were they paid to stay hushed? Quoting: Skeptical Believer
Well we will see there in court now maybe someone will stop these mad men.Seems we aren't the only ones worried or they wouldn't be in court now. |
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Clavain
User ID: 405478
4/3/2008 3:59 AM
 | | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
Yes i agree this scares me also .There is a small chance when fired up it could take us and the entire universe with it.How could they even consider it with that being a chance.They have gone mad i tell you.
That's what I'm saying...
How could this even be a consideration. It's not like it might take out a city block or a town if it goes awry, but could take the entire planet and possibly the universe!!!
Why is it so damn important to see what happened seconds after the big bang?
I'm gonna be watching this closely. Is the MSM even talking about it or were they paid to stay hushed? Quoting: Skeptical Believer
It's just a bigger version of the one which is already working.... which is and has been safe.
Plus, there is not much else which is more important than to discover how the first few seconds of the big bang happened. Much will be learnt.
The important thing is not to stop questioning - Albert Einstein. |
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Guns n' God
User ID: 275868
4/3/2008 4:01 AM | | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
A lot of scientists thought the nuclear bomb was going to take out the universe too.
I don't think we have anything to worry about. |
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Helmut
User ID: 83663
4/3/2008 4:01 AM | | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
It will eat you, us, earth, sun and the whole universe.
Ich bin der Helmut und habe jetzt ein post gemacht. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 290624
4/3/2008 4:03 AM | | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
There will always be fear about new progress and technologies, however I am with you, this is scary as hell. It is enormous too, what the hell are they possibly thinking?
Nothing is what it seems, you can bet your ass they have secret motivations and agendas lined up with the machine well beyond what the press is reporting. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 290624
4/3/2008 4:05 AM | | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
i.e. could this actually be the world's first time machine ... the big bang motivation is so stupid it's funny. No way would they go to these lengths for that. |
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Clavain
User ID: 405478
4/3/2008 4:06 AM
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rofl, everyone here who is peeing their pants about the hadron collider is ruled by fear.
The important thing is not to stop questioning - Albert Einstein. |
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Clavain
User ID: 405478
4/3/2008 4:08 AM
| | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
i.e. could this actually be the world's first time machine ... the big bang motivation is so stupid it's funny. No way would they go to these lengths for that. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 290624
It actually could be a time machine, only for people to come back or us to go forward. Unfortunately there is no way for us to go back as this is the first time we will have blasted a hole in space time.
The important thing is not to stop questioning - Albert Einstein. |
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Skeptical Believer
User ID: 272356
4/3/2008 4:16 AM
| | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
i.e. could this actually be the world's first time machine ... the big bang motivation is so stupid it's funny. No way would they go to these lengths for that.
It actually could be a time machine, only for people to come back or us to go forward. Unfortunately there is no way for us to go back as this is the first time we will have blasted a hole in space time. Quoting: Clavain
I see what you're saying and that is exciting to think that this could be a time machine,or at least lead to making a time machine but how sure are they that they have all the calculations right?
I mean, all scientists don't even agree on Einstein's Theory of Relativity?
It seems like there's too much left to chance with this!
Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this
Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks. |
|
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 400165
4/3/2008 4:20 AM | | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
mad scientists will do anything to find things out.its going to b complete failure.we know what happened after the big bang theory,why duplicate it and destroy us. if we survive you know its going to lead to bigger experiments,it won't stop. it will become a military weapon. either way we r doomed. b grest if a crack team cudnt break in and level the place.. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 403482
4/3/2008 4:35 AM | | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
another theory:
restarting time
and all this material prison.again...
(chk4---> atu-waa)
and ,
do also chk4 --->saturn cassini penetration mission rtg
have an iced day |
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canislatrans
User ID: 339544
4/3/2008 4:39 AM
 | | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
Sounds exciting! I'm ready for it.
And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. |
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Skeptical Believer
User ID: 272356
4/3/2008 4:59 AM
| | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
Maybe they are trying to restart time or maybe they know of an impending global disaster and are hoping they can travel in time with this to escape. They figure what do they have to lose, if it goes wrong, we all would have died anyway...
Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this
Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks. |
|
Skeptical Believer
User ID: 272356
4/3/2008 5:15 AM
| | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
[link to www.risk-evaluation-forum.org]
The Potential for Danger in Particle Collider Experiments
Available at: Risk Evaluation Forum, March 2005----------------Return to Risk Evaluation Forum Home Page
(This is an abstract of a longer paper. It has been abstracted for posting on the Risk Evaluation Forum website.)
Summary:
The upcoming Large Hadron Collider (LHC) at CERN could be dangerous. It could produce potentially dangerous particles such as mini black holes, strangelets, and monopoles.
A CERN study indicates no danger for earth, [Ref. 1] but its arguments are incomplete. The reasons why they are incomplete are discussed here.
This paper considers mainly micro black holes (MBHs) with low speeds. The fact that the speed of resultant MBHs would be low is unique to colliders. An important issue is the rate of accretion of matter subsequent to MBH creation.
This study explores processes that could cause accretion to be significant.
Other dangers of the LHC accelerator are also discussed.
I. Arguments for danger in LHC particle accelerator experiments
"In the 27-kilometer-long circular tunnel that held its predecessor, the LHC will be the most powerful particle accelerator in the world. It will smash fundamental particles into one another at energies like those of the first trillionth of a second after the Big Bang, when the temperature of the Universe was about ten thousand trillion degrees Centigrade." [Ref. 5]
1. There is a high probability that micro black holes (MBHs) will be produced in the LHC. A reasonable estimation of the probability that theories with (4+d) dimensions are valid could be more than 60%. The CERN study indicates in this case a copious production of MBHs at the LHC. [Ref. 1] One MBH could be produced every second. [Ref. 4 & Ref. 5]
2. The CERN study indicates that MBHs present no danger because they will evaporate with Hawking evaporation. [Ref. 1] However, Hawking evaporation has never been tested.[/b] In several surveys, physicists have estimated a non trivial probability that Hawking evaporation will not work. [Ref. 9] My estimate of its risk of Hawking evaporation failure is 20%, or perhaps as much as 30%.
The following points assume MBH production, and they assume that Hawking evaporation will fail.
3. The cosmic ray model is not valid for the LHC. It has been said that cosmic rays, which have more energy than the LHC, show that there is no danger. This may be true for accelerators that shoot high energy particles at a zero speed target. This is similar to cosmic ray shock on the moon's surface. In these cases the center of mass of interaction retains a high speed. This is different from the situation at the LHC, where particles with opposing speeds collide. With cosmic rays (mainly protons in cosmic rays) we need a speed of 0.9999995 c to create a micro black hole of 1 TeV and after the interaction the micro black hole center of mass will have a speed of 0.999 c. As MBHs are not very reactive with matter, calculations indicate that this is more than enough velocity to cross planets or stars without being caught and to escape into space.
4. Lower speed MBHs created in colliders could be captured by earth. Using Greg Landsberg's calculation [Ref. 3] of one black hole with velocity less than escape velocity from earth produced every 10^5 seconds at the LHC, we have 3.160 (US notation 3,160) MBHs captured by earth in ten years. More precise calculations show that we could have a distribution of MBHs at every range of speed from 0 m/sec to 4 m/sec. The probability of very low speed MBHs is not zero. We need to evaluate if low speed MBHs present more risks.
5. The speed of a MBH captured by earth will decrease and at the end MBHs will come to rest in the center of earth. The speed will decrease because of accretion and interaction with matter.
If we consider that:
a. The CERN study's calculus for accretion uses the "Schwarzschild radius" for the accretion cross section. [Ref. 1] In the case of low speeds, we must not use the Schwarzschild radius for the calculus of accretion. There are several reasons the capture radius extends beyond the Schwarzschild radius. For example, if the MBH speed were zero, gravitational attraction would be active at a distance greater than the Schwarzschild radius.
b. If a MBH accretes an electron, it will acquire a charge and then probably accrete a proton.
c. If a MBH accretes a quark it will then probably accrete a proton. When a quark is caught, the whole nucleon can be expected to be caught because otherwise the black hole would have acquired a charge which is not complete. (For example minus 1/3.) In a nucleus a fractional charge is unstable and is not allowed. This strongly suggests that the MBH will be required to accrete other divided charges to reach a completed integer number of charges. The same process can be expected in regard to quark color.
d. Gauge forces at short distances could also help to capture an atomic nucleus.
Our calculus indicates that a slow speed MBH can be expected to capture 8.400 (US notation 8,400) nucleons every hour, at the beginning of an exponential process.
6. In the center of earth new processes could occur: As stated above, it has been estimated that in ten years 3.160 (US notation 3,160) MBHs could be captured by earth. All MBHs will progressively lose speed because of numerous interactions. After a time (calculations have to be completed to estimate this time) all these MBHs will go toward the precise gravitational center of earth. (Kip Thorne [Ref. 7 p. 111]) After numerous interactions they will stop there at rest and then coalesce into a single MBH. To get an idea and for a first approach our calculus indicates that the mass of this MBH could be on the order of 0.02 g with a radius of 4 x 10^-17 m. At the center of earth, the pressure is 3.6 x 10^11 Pascals. [Ref. 8]. This pressure results from all the matter in Earth pushing on the electronic cloud of central atoms. The move of electrons is responsible of a pressure (called degenerescence pressure) that counterbalance the pressure of all the matter in Earth.
Around a black hole there is not an electronic cloud and there is no degenerescence pressure to counterbalance the pressure of all the Earth matter.To indicate the pressure we must use the surface If in an equation Pressure P = Force F / Surface S if we keep F= Constant and we reduce surface, we are obliged to notice that Pressure P will increase. Here F is the weight of all the matter of Earth and this do not change. As the surface of the MBH will be very small, calculus indicate on this surface an impressive increase of pressure in the range of : P = aprox 7 x 10 ^ 23 Pa .
The high pressure in this region push strongly all the matter in direction of the central point where the MBH is.
Electrons directly in contact with the Micro Black Hole will first be caught, then the nucleus will be caught.
It is sure that the atoms will be caught one after the other but the more the pressure will be important the more the caught will be quick. When a neutron star begins to collapse in a black hole (implosion), at the beginning the black hole is only a micro black hole as we see in [Ref. 7 Page 443]. At this very moment the high gravitational pressure in the center of the neutron star is there breaking the "strong force" which lays between the quarks located into the neutrons.
The MBH will grow there only because of the high pressure.
In center of Earth pressure is normally far to small for such a process, but if we create a slow speed MBH that does not evaporate and if this MBH comes at rest in the center of Earth, the pressure in the center of Earth could be sufficient for the growing of the MBH. We must remember that in the surrounding of the MBH the "strong force" is broken and this could mean that the same kind of pressure process than in neutron star could work there ( in a slow mode compared with a neutron star of course ). In the center of Earth, the high pressure, the high temperature, the increasing mass associated with electrical and gauge forces process could mean important increase of capture and a possible beginning of an exponential dangerous accretion process. Our calculus indicates as a first approximation with a MBH of 0.02 g at rest at the center of earth that the value for accretion of matter could be in the range of 1 g/sec to 5 g/sec.
7. Conclusion about MBHs : We estimate that for LHC the risk in the range of 7% to 10%. II. Other Risk Factors
The CERN study indicates that strangelets and monopoles could be produced and present no danger for earth. [Ref. 1]
We will present arguments of possible danger.
1. Strangelets
Strangelets are only dangerous for earth if they are not moving rapidly through matter. If only one strangelet is at zero speed there would be danger. We have seen for MBHs that the cosmic ray model is very different from the LHC where particles with opposing speeds collide. We have seen that, given the impact of opposite speed particles, the distribution of speeds of resultant particles indicates the probability of very low speeds (0 m/sec < speed < 4 m/sec) and this could mean dangerous strangelets. We estimate a minimal risk for strangelets on the order of 2%. We might estimate as high as 10 % if we want to be wise because the danger is primary!
2. Monopoles
Monopoles could be produced in the LHC. [Ref. 1] .CERN's calculations indicate that one monopole produced in LHC could destroy 1.018 (US notation 1,018) nucleons but it will quickly traverse the earth and escape into space. However, we know that photons produced in the center of the sun need thousands of years to traverse the sun and escape into space because of the numerous interactions. If the speed given to the monopole after interaction is a speed in a random direction, we can imagine that the monopoles produced in the LHC could stay a very long time in earth and be dangerous. 3. Estimate of danger due to our ignorance of ultimate physical laws: We have not exhausted processes that might cause danger. There are other particles, black energy, black mass, quintessence, vacuum energy, and many non definitive theories. We estimate this danger ranging from a minimal 2% risk to 5%.
III. CONCLUSION
The CERN study [Ref. 1] is a remake of a similar study for the earlier Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider at Brookhaven (RHIC) [Ref. 6] adapted to the LHC.
It is important to notice that: The study for the RHIC had concluded that no black holes will be created. For the LHC the conclusion is very different: "Black holes could be created!" !
The main danger could be now just behind our door with the possible death in blood of 6.500.000.000 (US notation 6,500,000,000) people and complete destruction of our beautiful planet. Such a danger shows the need of a far larger study before any experiment ! The CERN study presents risk as a choice between a 100% risk or a 0% risk. This is not a good evaluation of a risk percentage!
If we add all the risks for the LHC we could estimate an overall risk between 11% and 25%!.
We are far from the Adrian Kent's admonition that global risks that should not exceed 0.000001% a year to have a chance to be acceptable. [Ref. 3] .Even testing the LHC could be dangerous. Even an increase in the luminosity of the RHIC could be dangerous! It would be wise to consider that the more powerful the accelerator will be, the more unpredicted and dangerous the events that may occur! We cannot build accelerators always more powerful with interactions different from natural interactions, without risk. This is not a scientific problem. This is a wisdom problem!
Our desire of knowledge is important but our desire of wisdom is more important and must take precedence. The precautionary principle indicates not to experiment. The politicians must understand this evidence and stop these experiments before it is too late!
Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this
Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks. |
|
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 405478
4/3/2008 5:15 AM | | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
Maybe they are trying to restart time or maybe they know of an impending global disaster and are hoping they can travel in time with this to escape. They figure what do they have to lose, if it goes wrong, we all would have died anyway... Quoting: Skeptical Believer
If they had the techonolgy to restart time, do you seriously think we'd be still on this planet? I don't. Also there is no way for masses such as a human body to be transported across time, it is so extremely improbable that it could be classed as impossible. The best we could dream to do, even with this machine would be to transport a particle. The energies required for human travel would be roughly equivalent to all the engergy in the galaxy-or more.
The realistic view is that this collider is just a research tool, yes, I agree that there is probably a hidden agenda for secret technology or some other bazaar contraptions but it is doubtful anyone would be stupid enough to build something so dangerous as to destroy the universe...
If I were you, I'd be more worried about the subliminal control our governments have on our conciousnesses. |
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Skeptical Believer
User ID: 272356
4/3/2008 5:21 AM
| | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
Maybe they are trying to restart time or maybe they know of an impending global disaster and are hoping they can travel in time with this to escape. They figure what do they have to lose, if it goes wrong, we all would have died anyway...
If they had the techonolgy to restart time, do you seriously think we'd be still on this planet? I don't. Also there is no way for masses such as a human body to be transported across time, it is so extremely improbable that it could be classed as impossible. The best we could dream to do, even with this machine would be to transport a particle. The energies required for human travel would be roughly equivalent to all the engergy in the galaxy-or more.
The realistic view is that this collider is just a research tool, yes, I agree that there is probably a hidden agenda for secret technology or some other bazaar contraptions but it is doubtful anyone would be stupid enough to build something so dangerous as to destroy the universe...
If I were you, I'd be more worried about the subliminal control our governments have on our conciousnesses. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 405478
There are a lot of things to worry about on this planet.
But this is something that they aren't 100% sure of!
It has not been completely proven by anyone. I would think you would be a little more concerned about this. IT IS A BIG FUCKING DEAL!
Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this
Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks. |
|
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 403482
4/3/2008 5:24 AM | | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
right!You're right.
and did you notice how far we are getting from our governments?
and so distants from Earth and nature(only cash)...
think about it.Deeply. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 405320
4/3/2008 5:33 AM | | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
Particle accelerator, hrmm.. now that sounds like fun.  |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 405478
4/3/2008 6:26 AM | | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
You know, reading through that report does give me thoughts of danger, i'll admit But I'm much more excited to see the results of the experiments which will be conducted there.
Maybe a happy medium would be to put it on the moon.
The thing is, if we dont do these unknown, untested and unproven experiments, what will we learn which will take us further collectively and techonologically than we are now? |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 400165
4/3/2008 6:40 AM | | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
they ain't spent all that money and time just close up afterwards,they gna keep repeating it till it goes bang |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 312069
4/3/2008 6:50 AM | | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
LMAO, when i expressed the same concerns about the LHC back in 1997 everyone thought i was nutz.....and now everyones getting tetchy about it LMFAO |
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White Light
User ID: 406887
4/3/2008 7:59 AM
 | | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
LMAO, when i expressed the same concerns about the LHC back in 1997 everyone thought i was nutz.....and now everyones getting tetchy about it LMFAO Quoting: Anonymous Coward 312069
Are they trying to aquire Anti-matter??
Now that would be a big deal wouldnt it??  |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 406825
4/3/2008 8:18 AM | |
Skeptical Believer
User ID: 272356
4/3/2008 11:38 AM
| | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
You know, reading through that report does give me thoughts of danger, i'll admit But I'm much more excited to see the results of the experiments which will be conducted there.
Maybe a happy medium would be to put it on the moon.
The thing is, if we dont do these unknown, untested and unproven experiments, what will we learn which will take us further collectively and techonologically than we are now? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 405478
This thing is too big to even get it to the moon!
Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this
Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks. |
|
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 369529
4/3/2008 11:41 AM | | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
i'm big into scientific advancement but this 'experiment' doesn't seem useful and the reward is not worth the risk. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 256229
4/3/2008 11:43 AM | | Re: So what's really the deal with this CERN Particle Accelerator?? | Quote |
Restarting time? Do you think it is the Atu Wa? |
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