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AA is a CULT! IMO

 
Sumati Talveer (OP)

User ID: 370329
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04/30/2008 04:29 PM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
I've been clean & sober for just over 18 months. I went to AA in the begining, but decided it wasn't for me. Am I considered a "dry drunk"? I know AA helps people, but what helped me was exercise. I exercise six days a week, and have never felt better.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 357364


Try fresh veggie/fruit juicing. Works wonders. It takes a little more work and $, cleaning and preparing. But the benefits outwiegh the cost 100 to 1.

My problem is that I invested over 12+ years of my life. I made friendships, associations, etc... My family labeled me as the one continually struggling with "issues". Its in my DNA, I fear.

But I don't have immediate family issues. Instead of feeding into it, I choose to ignore it.

My Dad was an "alcoholic". Went thorugh rehab. It did wonders. But he left AA after 2 years. He heard too much sharing about drugs. (ironically Wilson found GOD through drugs, Bella Donna, and did LSD) My Dad was a very serious chronic drinker for 30 years. Dr. said he would die if he didn't quit. But he stayed sober for 8 more years, without a meeting, until throat cancer claimed his life. Probably as a result of 30 years of alcohol.

I am grateful. AA played a role. But how much is attributed to AA?? AA claims all of the success, but when a person relapses, shuts the door and says GOD had a hand in it, or the person didn't try hard enough, just didn't get it.
Anonymous Coward
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04/30/2008 04:40 PM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
That "cult" saved my life 15 years ago. I am no longer active, but it did work. Besides, at the time, my brain needed washing.
Sumati Talveer (OP)

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04/30/2008 04:59 PM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
That "cult" saved my life 15 years ago. I am no longer active, but it did work. Besides, at the time, my brain needed washing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1884


This is very valid.

Some people can then return to drinking very moderately.

But if it is brainwashing, and the literature is deceptive, it should be reconsidered.

It is SNAKE OIL. People have bought SNAKE OIL for centuries. Nothing new.

And it will emerge at another time, with a different label.

But, realize the amount of $ that is lost, which is supported by statistics. There is a LESS THAN ZERO success rate. Harvard studies proves this. But the guy who did the studying, was on an AA board, so he still advocated its spiritual benefits in the face of evidence. So why is the GOVT Health Industry pouring $ into spiritual endeavours? Betty Ford Center makes you sign a contract that you will read the Big Book cover to cover. Take the Big Book out of rehabs.

Professor George E. Vaillant of Harvard University is a Class A member of the Board of Trustees of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.. He is one of the leaders of A.A., and one of the biggest promoters of A.A..
Professor George E. Vaillant is not an "independent authority" at all.

While working at the Cambridge-Sommerville [Massachusetts] Program for Alcohol Rehabilitation (CASPAR) back in the 1970s and 1980s, Dr. Vaillant conducted an 8-year-long clinical test of A.A. treatment of alcoholics, enthusiastically trying to prove that A.A. works and is a good, effective treatment for alcoholism.

Much to his dismay, Dr. Vaillant instead clearly showed that A.A. kills alcoholics.
And Dr. Vaillant candidly reported those results in his book The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns, and Paths to Recovery, in 1984. (He had to accurately report the results; his work was funded by the U.S. Government.)


To me, alcoholism became a fascinating disease. It seemed perfectly clear that ... by turning to recovering alcoholics [A.A. members] rather than to Ph.D.'s for lessons in breaking self-detrimental and more or less involuntary habits, and by inexorably moving patients from dependence upon the general hospital into the treatment system of A.A., I was working for the most exciting alcohol program in the world.
But then came the rub. Fueled by our enthusiasm, I and the director, William Clark, tried to prove our efficacy. ...
... After initial discharge, only five patients in the Clinic sample never relapsed to alcoholic drinking, and there is compelling evidence that the results of our treatment were no better than the natural history of the disease.
...
Not only had we failed to alter the natural history of alcoholism, but our death rate of three percent a year was appalling.
...
Once again, our results were no better than the natural history of the disorder.
The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns, and Paths to Recovery, George E. Vaillant, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, 1983, pages 283-286.
The same text was reprinted in Vaillant's later book, The Natural History of Alcoholism Revisited, George E. Vaillant, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, 1995, on pages 349-352.


Vaillant's A.A.-based treatment program had no better a success rate than several other treatment programs that he examined, or even a group of alcoholics who got no treatment at all.
As Vaillant plainly stated, his A.A.-based treatment program "failed to alter the natural history of alcoholism." ("Natural history of alcoholism" means what usually happens to untreated alcoholics.)
A.A. didn't work; it didn't save any alcoholics. A.A. was no better than no treatment at all.
And it was even worse than that, because, after 8 years of A.A. treatment, 29% of Vaillant's patients were dead. That is nearly one out of every three patients, dead.
Vaillant's A.A.-based treatment program had the highest death rate of any treatment program that he examined. Even Professor Vaillant called the A.A. death rate "appalling".


And here is the extreme insanity of Prof. Vaillant and his love of Alcoholics Anonymous:

Even though Vaillant proved that A.A. didn't work and didn't help the alcoholics to avoid death, Vaillant still insisted on sending all alcoholics to Alcoholics Anonymous anyway, so that they could get "an attitude change" by "confessing their sins to a high-status healer".
[No, that is not a joke or an exaggeration.]
Vaillant said that he wanted to play mind games on his patients by combining "the best placebo effects of acupuncture, Lourdes, or Christian Science with the best attitude change inherent in the evangelical conversion experience" to "win their hearts and minds".
[And no, that is not a joke or an exaggeration, either.]
And Vaillant even recommended using non-logical mind-control techniques like "systematic indoctrination and repetition" on the patients, to "effect significant attitude change", rather than any kind of common-sense approach like "explanation of risk and rational advice by physicians." (See pages 286-291, or pages 352-357 of the new book, Revisited).
Vaillant was obviously, blatantly, pushing his favorite irrational cult religion, not promoting a working cure or treatment for alcoholism.
Vaillant even said point-blank that he did not intend to heal or cure the alcoholics at all:
"The point is that if one cannot cure an illness, one wants to make the patient less afraid and overwhelmed by it."
So that they can die as "less afraid and overwhelmed" members of Vaillant's religion, is what he really means.

And Prof. Vaillant also wrote:

"AA certainly functions as a cult and systematically indoctrinates its members in ways common to cults the world over."
"...in the absence of proven scientific efficacy, critics are legitimate in suggesting that mandated AA attendance may be criticized as a failure of proper separation between church and state."
The Natural History Of Alcoholism Revisited, George E. Vaillant, page 266.
Sumati Talveer (OP)

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04/30/2008 05:18 PM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
You seem a classic in denial. So being in denial you want to sabbotage those who would avail themselves of the help provided by AA??

No it is not a cult. If you don't call them for help they will not call you.
 Quoting: Mickeyblue 330969



Vaillant's A.A.-based treatment program had the highest death rate of any treatment program that he examined. Even Professor Vaillant called the A.A. death rate "appalling".
Sumati Talveer (OP)

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05/01/2008 10:06 AM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
bump

I could sure use a meeting, right now.

not. iamwith
Jenalice

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05/01/2008 10:31 AM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
If you leave our CULT, you will either:

1. Go insane.
2. Die drinking
3. Become incarcerated.

What about the 4th option???

4. Just don't drink. Become a functioning member in society without participating cult indoctrinating mantras, and never have to label yourself alcoholic. Ever.

When do you hear that option at meetings??? BUT IT'S NOT A CULT!!!!?????
 Quoting: Sumati Talveer


Jesus you just fucking rant on and on and on about your opinion about AA. If it upsets you that people call you a dry drunk, then don't fucking listen to them! ok we fucking get it, you are sooooo much better since you left AA, move the fuck on. No one has made you listen to AA or anything they have to say, be your own person and think for yourself, why do you have to beat the issue into the ground man, give it up, we get it...you think AA is a cult, Bill W was a looser and you just can't comprehend how the program helps anyone...you have been heard now


stfu givedamn tantrum yawn
"Some things are true weather you believe them or not."
Anonymous Coward
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05/01/2008 10:34 AM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
holy crap

you are beyond delusional

please get some help

seriously
 Quoting: malu

drunk
Sumati Talveer (OP)

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05/01/2008 10:34 AM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
It's not about me.

It's about helping people get out of the 12 Step CULT. I am saving lives.

that's the message I am tyring to convey.

In studies, it has a death rate that is found to have been "appalling", compared to other non-12 Step programs. It's no wonder Churches condone it, funerals are good business.

GOD BLESS! My GOD isn't a doorknob, either. It's Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior.
Jenalice

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05/01/2008 10:36 AM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
It's not about me.

It's about helping people get out of the 12 Step CULT. I am saving lives.

that's the message I am tyring to convey.

In studies, it has a death rate that is found to have been "appaling".

GOD BLESS! My GOD isn't a doorknob, either. It's Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior.
 Quoting: Sumati Talveer



You are not helping anyone, you are just pissing people off
"Some things are true weather you believe them or not."
Sumati Talveer (OP)

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05/01/2008 10:41 AM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
You are not helping anyone, you are just pissing people off
 Quoting: Jenalice


Why? I am merely stating facts, statistics and opinions.

If they have a problem with it, they are either in the CULT, or probably know someone who is. Or they are on the $ take. They choose to live in denial.

I'm not attacking anyone personally.

But when the 12-Steps are referred to as a CULT, people are offended.
BelgianBoy

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05/01/2008 10:49 AM
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You ARE attacking everybody who was somehow helped by AA.
It saved my life 23 years ago. I think of myself as an alcoholic and have no problems with that.
Tell me: do you still drink?
Anonymous Coward
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05/01/2008 10:51 AM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
It's not about me.

It's about helping people get out of the 12 Step CULT. I am saving lives.

that's the message I am tyring to convey.

In studies, it has a death rate that is found to have been "appalling", compared to other non-12 Step programs. It's no wonder Churches condone it, funerals are good business.

GOD BLESS! My GOD isn't a doorknob, either. It's Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior.
 Quoting: Sumati Talveer







I don't even drink and I'm thinking about going to AA!
OR
START DRINKING HEAVILY!

Dude you really need to start your own blog and leave this web site alone!

FYI: that god you talk about is the biggest cult ever so get over this thing about AA!
Anonymous Coward
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05/01/2008 11:10 AM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
AA works, but only if you work it. The tools are there to help you through all the self denial that most alcoholics have.

If it don't apply let fly!!

The steps are a way of looking at all the damage one has done over the course of one's drinking career.

An hour a day usually keeps the alcohol away, just a reminder of where we came from.


keep it simple!! stupid


Now go to a meeting and shut up!
Sumati Talveer (OP)

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05/01/2008 11:14 AM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
You ARE attacking everybody who was somehow helped by AA.
It saved my life 23 years ago. I think of myself as an alcoholic and have no problems with that.
Tell me: do you still drink?
 Quoting: BelgianBoy


No Sir. Do not drink. haven't in 15 years. But I didn't drink alcoholically prior to. I was brainwashed. But I confess, I was into Satanism prior to and Witchcraft and I think it bit me in the AZZ and I became vulnerable and succumbed to AA fabrications. I had this huge altar and everything. I didn't care what my college housemates thought. I went to ACOA, because my Dad sobered up and I thought it was the right thing to do.

If you consider yourself an alcoholic, then what are you doing about it??? Are you helping others?

If alcohol is a DISEASE, then how do AA amateurs give "professional" suggestions/advice on marriage, spirituality or health? Either it's a DISEASE and should be handled appropriately, or not. A minority within the medical field, notably Herbert Fingarette and Stanton Peele, argue against the existence of this disease.
BelgianBoy

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05/01/2008 11:19 AM
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If alcohol is a DISEASE, then how do AA amateurs give "professional" suggestions/advice on marriage, spirituality or health? Either it's a DISEASE and should be handled appropriately, or not.
 Quoting: Sumati Talveer


If they do that they step over the border of what AA is about: namely helping people to stop drinking AND not regretting it.
I am very happy and adressed other issues in suitable venues, not AA. And yes, I helped a few... probably saved some lives.
Sumati Talveer (OP)

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05/01/2008 11:23 AM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
Sumati Talveer (OP)

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05/01/2008 11:24 AM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
keep it simple!! stupid

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 426240


I'm not calling anyone names. Am I? 5a

There is a story, I doubt if its true, but it could be, that while Dr Bob was examining Bill's rectum for a physcial, Bill exclaimed, "Whoah! Easy Does It, Bobby!"
Sumati Talveer (OP)

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05/01/2008 11:26 AM
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I am very happy and adressed other issues in suitable venues, not AA. And yes, I helped a few... probably saved some lives.
 Quoting: BelgianBoy


but how many lives have you hurt by sharing about the SNAKE OIL virtues of the 12 Steps?? We'll never know that.
BelgianBoy

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05/01/2008 11:30 AM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
I'll repeat that: you don't want to go to AA to solve your health/marriage or other problems! Your amongst drunks for most part for crying out loud! Of course they will have advice. Mostly bad. You go for only one purpose: you have a problem with alcohol, wich by the way only you can decide about wether it IS a problem.
BelgianBoy

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05/01/2008 11:32 AM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
but how many lives have you hurt by sharing about the SNAKE OIL virtues of the 12 Steps?? We'll never know that.
 Quoting: Sumati Talveer


What are you rambling about? Enlighten me...
Sumati Talveer (OP)

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05/01/2008 11:36 AM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
will this help?

The first edition Big Book authors fared like this:


Henry "Hank" Parkhurst (The Unbeliever) - NYC/NJ Gone
Dr. Robert H. Smith (Dr. Bob's Nightmare) - Akron Stayed
Dr. William D. Silkworth ("The Doctor's Opinion") -- NYC Stayed
Fitz M. (Our Southern Friend) - Washington, DC/Maryland Stayed
Clarence Snyder (Home Brewmeister) - Cleveland Stayed
Removed from the 4th edition because he criticized Bill Wilson.
Ernie Galbraith (The Seven Month Slip) - Akron
"AA #4", Dr. Bob's constantly-relapsing son-in-law. Gone
Charlie Simonson (Riding The Rods) - Akron Gone
Bob Oviatt (The Salesman) - Akron Gone
Arch T. (The Fearful One) - Detroit/Grosse Point Gone
Dick S. (The Car Smasher) - Akron Gone
Joe D. (The European Drinker) - Akron Stayed
Florence Rankin (A Feminine Victory) - NYC Gone
Note: The REAL First A.A. Woman, who relapsed and disappeared.)
William 'Bill' Ruddel (A Business Man's Recovery) - NYC Gone
Harry Brick (A Different Slant) - probably NYC Gone
Jim Scott (Traveler, Editor, Scholar) - Akron Gone
Walter Bray (The Back-Slider) - Akron Gone
Marie Bray (An Alcoholic's Wife) - Akron Gone
Tom and Maybell Lucas (My Wife and I) - Akron Gone
William 'Bill' Van Horn (A Ward of the Probate Court) - Akron Gone
Wallace 'Wally' Gilliam (Fired Again) - Akron Gone
Paul Stanley (Truth Freed Me!) - Akron Gone
Harold Sears (Smile With Me, At Me) - NYC Gone
Henry J. 'Harry' Zoeller (A Close Shave) - Akron (later moved to NY) Gone
Norman Hunt (Educated Agnostic) - Akron Gone
Ralph Furlong (Another Prodigal Story) - NYC Gone
Myron Williams (Hindsight) - NYC Gone
Horace R. 'Popsy' Mayer (On His Way) - NYC Gone
Ray Campbell ( An Artist's Concept) - NYC/Carmel NY Gone
Lloyd Tate (The Rolling Stone) - Akron/Cleveland Gone
Sumati Talveer (OP)

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05/01/2008 11:43 AM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
What are you rambling about? Enlighten me...
 Quoting: BelgianBoy


a pidgeon, perhaps? I cut n' paste from Orange Papers.



Shifting objectives: First the goal is to quit drinking, and then the goal is to "acquire faith" and "come to believe" in Bill Wilson's religion.

First, A.A. is just a nice neighborhood quit-drinking self-help group, and then it's a hard-core religion.

First, it's only a "spiritual" alcoholism recovery program, and then it's a fundamentalist religion whose 'real purpose' is to make you 'serve God'.

First, they will tell you that you can "Take what you want, and leave the rest." Then they will tell you that you can't ever leave.

First, they will tell you that you can "Take what you want, and leave the rest." Then they will tell you that you must follow the formula exactly, or else it won't work.

First, they will tell you that you can do it your way. Then they will tell you that you must do it their way.

First, they will tell you to see a doctor, and say that "we know only a little", but then it's "We know more than doctors", "We are the experts on addictions", and "Don't take medications."

First, they will tell you that the Twelve Steps are only suggested as a program of recovery, but then you hear the slogan "Work The Steps Or Die".

First, Bill Wilson declared that Alcoholics Anonymous was only one of many ways to achieve sobriety, then he declared that it was The Only Way.

First, God loves you, and then He doesn't.

First, God loves you unconditionally, and then God won't save you unless you 'work a strong program'.

First, God is your servant, and then you are a slave of God.

First, you don't have to be perfect, and then you do.

First, they tell you that Alcoholics Anonymous is a program of "rigorous honesty", and then it's gross dishonesty: "Fake It Until You Make It" and "Act As If" and "Don't tell the newcomers..."

First, it's just a quiet, confidential program of attraction, then it's a tough-love program of steel-fisted coercion and promotion.

First, you get declarations of easy-going tolerance, and then, death threats.

First, A.A. tells you that you are responsible for your own sobriety -- that you must do all of the work -- but then, if you succeed, A.A. claims that it was responsible for your success.

First, the story is "The A.A. program works great", but then, when people relapse, "It isn't our fault".

First they tell you that you are powerless over alcohol, but if you drink any alcohol, then it's your fault because you chose to drink.

First, they talk about numbers, and then they refuse to discuss numbers. Likewise, first they claim a great success rate, and then they refuse to discuss the success rate.

First, a cure, and then, no cure. First, hope of recovery, and then hopelessness.

First it works, and then it doesn't. First, the story is that the Twelve Steps will work and make you quit drinking, and then they won't.

Redefine Words: First a word means one thing, and then it means something else.

First, the insanity referred to in Step Two means that you have been insanely drinking enough alcohol to kill you, but then "insanity" means that you have not been living according to God's will.

First, Alcoholics Anonymous is a community of equals, just a nice neighborhood self-help group, and then it's a hierarchical dictatorship with Bill Wilson at the top.

First, you are an adult, and then you are a child.

First, the alcoholics who are still drinking are our brothers, our "fellow travelers" -- people who should be granted sympathy, understanding, unconditional love, and complete acceptance -- and then the alcoholics who won't conform to the A.A. program are just worthless bums.

The medical-to-moral morph: First, alcoholism is a disease to be cured, and then it is a sin that must be removed by God.

First, A.A. is good treatment for the disease of alcoholism, and then it isn't treatment at all.

First, A.A. is very scientific and is psychologically sound, and then it isn't based on science at all.

The psychological-to-moral morph.

First it isn't your fault that you were born an alcoholic, and then it is.

First you aren't supposed to feel guilty, and then you are.

First they will tell you that alcoholism is not a moral stigma, and then they will tell you that it is.

First they say that they want to reduce the stigma of alcoholism, and then they work to increase it.

First they will tell you that an alcoholic is just an good person who can't control his drinking, but later they will tell you that an alcoholic is a disgusting immoral selfish evil creature who has a "spiritual disease".

First they tell you that "There are no 'MUSTS' in Alcoholics Anonymous, only suggestions", but then they will tell you that there are many necessities and musts.

First it isn't political, and then it is.

Progressive Terminology: First, they tell you to do an honest, complete, "moral inventory", and then they tell you to only talk about your "wrongs" and "character defects" and "moral shortcomings".

First, ego-mania, and then abject humility. First, happiness, and then sadness.

First, ego-destruction, and then bombastic delusions of grandeur.

First, expect a great religious or spiritual experience, and then expect nothing.

First, "unconditional love" and then hateful contempt.

First, A.A. tells you to "Think, Think, Think", but later it's "Stop Your Stinkin' Thinkin'."

First, A.A. tells you that "A.A. requires no beliefs," but then you have to believe everything they tell you, and have blind faith in the proclamations of Bill Wilson.

First, prospective new members are offered a tolerant, open-minded "spiritual" program, but then they get narrow-minded demands for belief in Bill Wilson's teachings.

First, you can keep your own religion, and then you can't.

First it's "Surrender to God" and then it's "surrender to some A.A. members".

First, it's "any God as you understand Him", and then it's "You don't understand God. You are 'confused' and 'prejudiced'."

First, declarations of Religious Freedom, and then demands for Religious Conformity.

First, a loosely-defined "Higher Power", and then an explicitly-defined "God".

Redefine God. First you get one God, then you get a different God.

Hide from newcomers what membership entails. First show them one image, then show them another image.

Offer them medical treatment for alcoholism, but give them the twelve-step religion.
BelgianBoy

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05/01/2008 11:45 AM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
No. I don't even know what this is all about, and I don't care. The 12 steps are based one the idea that people who struggle with the same problems are likely to understand one another and therefore help, just by recognition, each other.
That's why so many "group" therapies are based on it, with some success.

I do not wish to antagonise you (waste of my time) and will leave you to think freely what you want. Goodbye.
Sumati Talveer (OP)

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05/01/2008 11:48 AM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
No. I don't even know what this is all about, and I don't care.
 Quoting: BelgianBoy


You don't care because like the Hare Krishnas, you won't listen to what you have invested so much of your personal beliefs, time and sacrifices.

ENJOY the KOOL AID! tomato

BTW. Did you know Bill Wilson participated with LSD for 2 1/2 years, and "advocated it" enthusastically, which is documented in AA approved literature? Does your group talk about that? It's in the literature, why not? But I don't think it refers to his alley cat methods at meetings, where someone was assigned by his side, in order to curtail his 13th Step lifestyle. But he ended up with a Secretary, for that. A rather cunning SNAKE OIL salesman.
Anonymous Coward
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05/01/2008 12:05 PM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
If you leave our CULT, you will either:

1. Go insane.
2. Die drinking
3. Become incarcerated.

What about the 4th option???

4. Just don't drink. Become a functioning member in society without participating cult indoctrinating mantras, and never have to label yourself alcoholic. Ever.

When do you hear that option at meetings??? BUT IT'S NOT A CULT!!!!????? bsflag
 Quoting: Sumati Talveer


! thru 3. I don't know who is translating for your mind, but I think you need a new internal speaker.

AA is a voluntary program unless you have been sent there by a judge or otherwise. If you are being forced into it then I can understand the mistranslation. You are brain dead and need to get in touch with reality.
Sumati Talveer (OP)

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05/01/2008 12:16 PM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
AA is a voluntary program unless you have been sent there by a judge or otherwise. If you are being forced into it then I can understand the mistranslation. You are brain dead and need to get in touch with reality.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 423556


My first meeting, at South Plainfield, NJ; I heard from an oldtimer:

1. Don't Drink.
2. Go to meetings.
3. Change Everything

that was MY internal speaker for years and years. It was part of my DNA.

guess what. I'm on the road to changing how people think about AA.

And my meetings are in Communion, with Jesus Christ.

And I don't drink. (not even Communion wine, which makes me feel like an outcast)
Sumati Talveer (OP)

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05/01/2008 12:22 PM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
AA is a voluntary program unless you have been sent there by a judge or otherwise.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 423556


First, they will tell you that the Twelve Steps are only suggested as a program of recovery, but then you hear the slogan "Work The Steps Or Die".
Anonymous Coward
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05/01/2008 12:39 PM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
The pyramid and the sun should have been the first clue. The second would be Bill Wilsons friendship and AA funding by Mr Rochefeller.
malu

User ID: 421073
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05/01/2008 12:51 PM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
AA is a voluntary program unless you have been sent there by a judge or otherwise.


First, they will tell you that the Twelve Steps are only suggested as a program of recovery, but then you hear the slogan "Work The Steps Or Die".
 Quoting: Sumati Talveer



alcoholism kills

it is not a fucking game

if you care to live it is "suggested" you take the program and the disease seriously
"By way of deception, thou shalt do war."

Israel's Mossad

"The truth shall set you free."

U.S. Central Intelligence Agency Motto
Sumati Talveer (OP)

User ID: 370329
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05/01/2008 01:47 PM
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Re: AA is a CULT! IMO
This is as serious as it gets. AA plays with lives. Tell your sponsor your checking out other programs, like Rational Recovery; because your sick and tired of AA Nazis.

from Orange Papers verbatim:

Nowhere in the Twelve Steps does it say that you should quit drinking, or help anyone else to quit drinking, either. Nowhere do the words "sobriety", "recovery", "abstinence", "health", "happiness", "joy", "love", or "love", appear in the Twelve Steps. The word "alcohol" was only mentioned once, where it was patched into the first step as a substitute for the word "sin" -- Bill Wilson wrote,
"we are powerless over alcohol and our lives have become unmanageable",
instead of the Oxford Group slogan,
"we are powerless over sin and have been defeated by it".
And then the phrase "especially alcoholics" was patched into the 12th step as a suggested target for further recruiting efforts:
"...we tried to carry this message to others, especially alcoholics"...
(But regular non-alcoholic people were still fair game for recruiting into Bill's "spiritual fellowship"...)

The Twelve Steps are not a formula for curing or treating alcoholism, and they never were.
The Twelve Steps are not "spiritual principles" and they never were.
The Twelve Steps are cult practices that work to convert people into confirmed true believers in a proselytizing cult religion.

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