I wonder if with that "bubbler", you aren't just leaning out your gas/fuel mixture. After all, you are inserting more air via a vacuum line, right? How is that different than just a vacuum leak, other than it being a more humid one?
Exactly.
This stupidity worked in the days of non-optimized carbureted engines but the new model of fuel injection maintained to a "stoichiometric" ratio by catalytic converters with computerized oxygen sensor feedback is a very elegant model, it is a GOOD system, and interfering with it won't gain you much but higher emissions. "Leaning out" the engine is way old thought from the 70's; better to have a SMALLER engine in the first place, a smaller engine that still uses fuel injection/catalytic converter/computer controlled mixture via oxygen sensor. We're not savages, we can do reduced emissions with our current technology, no good reason to defeat it with 70's style air-bleed devices disguised as "browntard's gas" or any other popular internet fraud.
Quoting: Reptilecus 431646
Believe what you like. I will continue enjoying 3 extra miles per gallon, and the added power I feel in the seat of my pants.
When you can get your 14 year old V8 truck to achieve 21 mpg on the highway, better than when it was new, I'll listen to you.
I was reading Meyer's bio, and it says that his technology was never proven to work and that all his drawings are on the internet. Nobody has been able to do what he claimed.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 411384
Well Im doing it from scratch in my basement and so far it seems to be working pretty damn good! lol
Pal User ID: 429946 5/12/2008 10:08 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
I just wish I could be a better banner for proper spelling..
Its NEUTRAL lol.
Quoting: Primordial
I also wish people would learn the difference between "your" and "you're"... and "to" and "too".
Another thing... It isn't cute to run on without capitalization or punctuation. And don't say: Well, you know what I meant"... No, type what you mean. Don't expect people to wade through misspellings and wrong words to figure it out.
GAAH!
Anonymous Coward User ID: 214557 5/12/2008 10:13 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
The Lindemann video makes the claim that the Meyers cell did not rely on resonance, but rather was an averaged sawtooth waveform from a series of pulses that drove a water capacitor through a diode until dielectric failure occurred.
These high voltage pulses are low current, high voltage in nature, and the Meyers cell gains some kind of overunity output during the dielectric breakdown.
Circuits of the MEG, or Flynn parallel path, or toroid transformer designs may each or all contribute to overunity performance.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 428246 5/12/2008 10:21 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
From my experiences of distilling my drinking water (my rocky mountain spring is actually quite hard), it is fairly obvious that the Meyers cell would give you a lot less trouble if it was always filled with distilled water.
Using tap water in a Meyers cell means hard water deposits will cake up inside the cell until it was plugged.
Frequent cleaning of hard water deposits would be necessary.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 214557 5/12/2008 10:38 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
(unless you found a way to separate the oxygen, and if you did, I'd relish you explaining how you did it)
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 372844
Use an H shaped chamber, + and - on each stem at the bottom, hydrogen will collect on one stem, oxygen on the other. The current passes through the cross-over. A valve at the top of each stem would allow you to release the gas, one side will fill up twice as fast as the other
Anonymous Coward User ID: 214557 5/12/2008 10:48 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
(unless you found a way to separate the oxygen, and if you did, I'd relish you explaining how you did it)
Use an H shaped chamber, + and - on each stem at the bottom, hydrogen will collect on one stem, oxygen on the other. The current passes through the cross-over. A valve at the top of each stem would allow you to release the gas, one side will fill up twice as fast as the other
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 214557
I tried something like this. It work nowhere near what it would do if you had them closer to each other. I guess you dont pull on the H2O molecule hard enough to split it until you get to a certain closeness. Although i can see a smaller chamber being done. The distance I had in between where over a good 5-6 inches.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 18059 5/12/2008 11:26 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
scimitar if you dont feel like showing me a few things on here we can do it privately. i am all ears 4 you
Quoting: Grower 429597
I don't get to spend too much time on here so it's touch and go.
I have in the past spent time looking at Stanley Meyers implementation and find a reasonable merit in his ideas.
As always when someone is trying to create a device that the scientific community says is impossible then there is pressure in the individual to explain their ideas in terms that technically describes things. This may sometimes seem more complicated that the actual mechanics of the process.
Just using your imagination with a few basic facts can often lead to success in certain endevours
Generating high voltages is primarily done using either a step up transformer or the inductively generated back EMF that is created when the electrical current induced magnetic field collapses after energizing current is removed.
In a automotive ignition system this is accomplished as is generally common knowledge with the use of an auto-transformer, basically a single coil winding with 3 taps. by energizing a small portion of the entire coil one can obtain a voltage step up action when the energizing current is removed. The actual output voltage can be controlled by controlling the duty cycle of the energizing current.
Now I am no expert on the current level of high energy automotive ignition systems, but the basic will still be there.
The stated basic process that is occurring in the Stanley Meyer device relies on forming a resonant circuit with the water cell being the capacitive component of the resonant LC circuit. If this is fact then any experimental implementation would require a considerable amount of tuning.
However if it happens to be as simple as stressing the distilled water dielectic with a high voltage that should not exceed the breakdown enough to cause current flow then a very easy implememtation would be possible.
The heart of the system could be accomplished with the use of an ignition coil and a solid state switch regulated by some fairly easy controller that has the ability to automatically control the duty cycle of the energizing pulse to the coil. One aspect of this control would be to have a current sensing capability that would in turn reduce the pulsing duty cycle which would reduce the amplitude of the voltage pulses applied to the water cell.
The best advantage to using distilled water would be the absence of corrosive components generated from an electrolyte.
More later.......
scimitar I Just wanna know User ID: 18059 5/12/2008 11:28 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
I also wish people would learn the difference between "your" and "you're"... and "to" and "too".
Another thing... It isn't cute to run on without capitalization or punctuation. And don't say: Well, you know what I meant"... No, type what you mean. Don't expect people to wade through misspellings and wrong words to figure it out.
GAAH!
Quoting: Pal 429946
u cunt be ceriouse.
Grower User ID: 429597 5/12/2008 12:46 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Okay i got ya. For the most part. I hooked up a ignition coil in series with me test cell and couldnt figure out wtf was going on. Then came in here and looked up on how a ignition coil works. I didnt collapse the EM field. Then searched for an automotive coil and came across this [link to www.rtftechnologies.org]
It's a ignition coil driver
"Overview:
This design uses a 555 timer and three 2n3055 switching transistors to provide a variable frequency, variable voltage input to an automotive ignition coil. Normal output is 25kV when run at 12v input and at the coil's resonant frequency (8kHz). Increasing the voltage output to about 50kV is possible if the input voltage is increased to 34v, however this risks burning out the switching transistors when the system is operated for an extended time."
In this setup i think its just to create a spark over a spark plug perhaps. I dont think it would create a spark if you had a much larger area for the charge to spread. I guess i should start learning to build small circuits like this if i want to get anywhere. I wonder if i could temporarly replace the circuit with just a push button? or some type of switch to collapse the EM field?
scimitar I Just wanna know User ID: 18059 5/12/2008 1:17 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Okay i got ya. For the most part. I hooked up a ignition coil in series with me test cell and couldnt figure out wtf was going on. Then came in here and looked up on how a ignition coil works. I didnt collapse the EM field. Then searched for an automotive coil and came across this [link to www.rtftechnologies.org]
It's a ignition coil driver
"Overview:
This design uses a 555 timer and three 2n3055 switching transistors to provide a variable frequency, variable voltage input to an automotive ignition coil. Normal output is 25kV when run at 12v input and at the coil's resonant frequency (8kHz). Increasing the voltage output to about 50kV is possible if the input voltage is increased to 34v, however this risks burning out the switching transistors when the system is operated for an extended time."
In this setup i think its just to create a spark over a spark plug perhaps. I dont think it would create a spark if you had a much larger area for the charge to spread. I guess i should start learning to build small circuits like this if i want to get anywhere. I wonder if i could temporarly replace the circuit with just a push button? or some type of switch to collapse the EM field?
Quoting: Grower 429597
That was weird...... I just typed a lengthy response and posted it, but it did not appear.
Good research.... You are on the right track. The idea is to not create a spark. Since the water cell with distilled water will act like a capacitor and store charge, the process would be generating a train of pulses using the circuit you found, with a addition that would interrupt the pulses periodically and allow a relaxation period for the cell to discharge prior to reaching the dielectric breakdown potential of the water. One Truth.... many realities
Pal User ID: 429946 5/12/2008 1:32 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
I wonder if with that "bubbler", you aren't just leaning out your gas/fuel mixture. After all, you are inserting more air via a vacuum line, right? How is that different than just a vacuum leak, other than it being a more humid one?
Exactly.
This stupidity worked in the days of non-optimized carbureted engines but the new model of fuel injection maintained to a "stoichiometric" ratio by catalytic converters with computerized oxygen sensor feedback is a very elegant model, it is a GOOD system, and interfering with it won't gain you much but higher emissions. "Leaning out" the engine is way old thought from the 70's; better to have a SMALLER engine in the first place, a smaller engine that still uses fuel injection/catalytic converter/computer controlled mixture via oxygen sensor. We're not savages, we can do reduced emissions with our current technology, no good reason to defeat it with 70's style air-bleed devices disguised as "browntard's gas" or any other popular internet fraud.
Believe what you like. I will continue enjoying 3 extra miles per gallon, and the added power I feel in the seat of my pants.
When you can get your 14 year old V8 truck to achieve 21 mpg on the highway, better than when it was new, I'll listen to you.
Quoting: Evil Twin
Yeah, but you didn't answer my question. I'm just trying to figure out what is actually happening with these "bubbler" systems. Here is a repeat:
I wonder if with that "bubbler", you aren't just leaning out your gas/fuel mixture. After all, you are inserting more air via a vacuum line, right? How is that different than just a vacuum leak, other than it being a more humid one?
Grower User ID: 429597 5/12/2008 2:11 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Yeah, but you didn't answer my question. I'm just trying to figure out what is actually happening with these "bubbler" systems. Here is a repeat:
I wonder if with that "bubbler", you aren't just leaning out your gas/fuel mixture. After all, you are inserting more air via a vacuum line, right? How is that different than just a vacuum leak, other than it being a more humid one?
Quoting: Pal 429946
Im kinda curious on this one too. I know if you inject water into a gas/air mixture it will increase your octane. Increasing your octane will make your fuel burn slower. They use water injection on some sport vehicles with a turbo chargers or centrifugal blowers. Do you think you can draw us up a diagram on how you have this bubbler hooked up to your vehicle?
Grower User ID: 429597 5/12/2008 2:15 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Forgot to mention that they usually add the water to prevent pre-ignition on the highly compressed turbo charged or super charged engines. Ever have a super charged engine? (popular on the pontiac 3800 series engines with a grand prix etc.) Ever put low octane fuel in it? it will run nice untill you step on it. Then you will hear all types of clacking in your engine. Thats from the fuel detonating before the actual spark occurs from the compression of the forced air induction.
Lastone User ID: 432018 5/12/2008 4:18 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Forgot to mention that they usually add the water to prevent pre-ignition on the highly compressed turbo charged or super charged engines. Ever have a super charged engine? (popular on the pontiac 3800 series engines with a grand prix etc.) Ever put low octane fuel in it? it will run nice untill you step on it. Then you will hear all types of clacking in your engine. Thats from the fuel detonating before the actual spark occurs from the compression of the forced air induction.
Quoting: Grower 429597
Very... very important..
By knowing that ... you can built a Meyer injector no spark to start the combustion spark !!!
The Meyer injector systm doesn't work with a spark to start the combustion... Why ?
Because he makes the compression and by doing that the fuel will detonate without a spark.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 431827 5/12/2008 4:33 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
The Meyer injector systm doesn't work with a spark to start the combustion... Why ?
Because he makes the compression and by doing that the fuel will detonate without a spark.
Quoting: Lastone 432018
Lies.
Meyers spark plug worked like this:
Super heat steam is injected into the cylinder and exposed to a high voltage spark causing an explosion pushing the piston down. All with one replacement plug.
Try again Lastone.
Either you know not what you speak of OR you are purposefully spreading disinfo.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 432018 5/12/2008 5:46 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
The Meyer injector systm doesn't work with a spark to start the combustion... Why ?
Because he makes the compression and by doing that the fuel will detonate without a spark.
Lies.
Meyers spark plug worked like this:
Super heat steam is injected into the cylinder and exposed to a high voltage spark causing an explosion pushing the piston down. All with one replacement plug.
Try again Lastone.
Either you know not what you speak of OR you are purposefully spreading disinfo.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 431827
Why ?? Why would I do that ?
Maybe you can explain this to me...
Doing what he is saying in this video .. do you need a spark?
Meyer's Living Advocate User ID: 432071 5/12/2008 6:05 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Let me offer you all some clarifications and avenues of research.
Meyer was not using simple electrolysis, which is being employed in cars all over the world for huge gas savings. Meyer's process was such that he was using magnetic fields generated by very high voltage to physically pull apart water molecules.
See, in electrolysis, we use current (flow of electrons) and very little voltage to rip through water molecules and separate hydrogen and oxygen. Since your alternator generates extra current as you drive down the road, this is a perfect method to supplement oxygen and hydrogen gas into your gasoline engine. It doesn' mix with diesel well...
Meyer's process uses very little current, often a thousandth or more less than in electrolysis. In return, the voltage potential is often in the kilovolts. Meyer's process also uses no electrolyte, capitalizing on water's insulative properties. Water is a polar molecule, and when polar charges are applied around it, the molecule can be manipulated with very little power.
It really doesn't matter if people believe something beyond electrolysis is possible or not, we could be using the electrolysis to get 50% more efficiency in some automobiles...
Besides, I know Meyer's process works because I have it set up right next to my computer. It is my senior thesis.
Lastone User ID: 432018 5/12/2008 6:37 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Let me offer you all some clarifications and avenues of research.
Meyer was not using simple electrolysis, which is being employed in cars all over the world for huge gas savings. Meyer's process was such that he was using magnetic fields generated by very high voltage to physically pull apart water molecules.
See, in electrolysis, we use current (flow of electrons) and very little voltage to rip through water molecules and separate hydrogen and oxygen. Since your alternator generates extra current as you drive down the road, this is a perfect method to supplement oxygen and hydrogen gas into your gasoline engine. It doesn' mix with diesel well...
Meyer's process uses very little current, often a thousandth or more less than in electrolysis. In return, the voltage potential is often in the kilovolts. Meyer's process also uses no electrolyte, capitalizing on water's insulative properties. Water is a polar molecule, and when polar charges are applied around it, the molecule can be manipulated with very little power.
It really doesn't matter if people believe something beyond electrolysis is possible or not, we could be using the electrolysis to get 50% more efficiency in some automobiles...
Besides, I know Meyer's process works because I have it set up right next to my computer. It is my senior thesis.
Quoting: Meyer's Living Advocate 432071
Thank you..
I have been saying that since the beginning of this.
Maybe you can help me with one thing.
Do you know the Benini power generator?
Do you know energy from the vacuum?
I think Meyer was using this 2 concepts together.
He uses an electric pulse to increase the voltage and decrease the amps, but by using the pulse from the circuit he creats another pulse in the capacitator and by aplying laser in to it it is possible to recover the free electrons from the gas so that they can not stabilize the water molecule. Doing this he recovers the energy put in to the capacitator in for of volts from the pulse and makes more energy that he puts in in amps. So he puts voltage in and he takes amps from it.
Am I wrong on this...???
Then he uses the electricity recoverd to recharge the battery that supplie the energy to form the pulse and so on.
It is not a perpectual circuit because you have to repalce the water but ... almost. If you have a non stoping input of water you have a permanent electrical producing assembly and a hydrogen fuel production system.
Am I wrong?
Sorry about my english ... doing my best.
Try to write in Portugues and you'll understand me. :) LOL
Grower User ID: 429597 5/12/2008 7:37 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Meyers spark plug worked like this:
Super heat steam is injected into the cylinder and exposed to a high voltage spark causing an explosion pushing the piston down. All with one replacement plug.
Try again Lastone.
Either you know not what you speak of OR you are purposefully spreading disinfo.
the blue being the super heated steam and positive is red and negative is black. But our problem is we dont have the resources to create something like this.
Thanks would love to see some pics, the problem I was having is tryin to find ideas from others, they show it on their website but dont tell you anything as far as what electrolyte and all that, cause they are trying to patent it or make money off it, thats great but lets not forget what happened to Stanley Meyers!
as soon as I figure out which configuration is most efficient Im posting all I know for free! Its time we stopped walking backwards and try to progress!
Quoting: Primordial
Stan Meyers made mention of oscillating the current across the electrodes to improve electrolysis efficiency. If you are experimenting with this you might try picking up an electronic speed control from your local rc car racing hobby shop, these units "flicker" the current sort of like a potentiometer (or try a potentiometer) by pulsating the current at the right frequency for a given electrolyte (variable fluid conductivity) you should be able to create what is called "taylor cones" in mass quantities across your "water circuit" and that SHOULD increase efficiency of electrolysis many times.
Teacher User ID: 341774 5/12/2008 8:57 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Your gloryhole memoirs notwithstanding, here's how it works:
'Air bleeds' make your fuel more spontaneously explosive, as opposed to a controlled burn. RPM does indeed go up, no question, but it burns your valves and spikes your emissions. The proof is that Ford's old emission control gimmick was to squirt raw gas into the airstream during deceleleration to stop 'nitroxides' or whatever it was from spiking during deceleration when the butterfly valve was closed and the mixture was thereby leaned out. Very stupid and wasteful, but it illustrates that emissions spike so high in a lean mixture thad adding *more* gas *lowers* emissions!! Please don't let that point escape you.
In the old days they quenched the temperature and explosiveness of the leaner mixture with water vapor injection.
From '74 on, they resurrected the principle, but used crankcase ventilation "blow-by gasses" instead of water to quench the temperature of a leaner mixture, which was perfectly sane, and burned some small percentage of unburned fuel as a bonus instead of fussing with water bubblers. This is why when old school mechanics disabled emission controls the mileage got WORSE not better.
We're not complete fucking idiots you know, we walked on the Moon.
So yeah your mileage is higher, but it's *STRICTLY* because you are using 70's era air-bleed/water vapor gimmickery. The idea that you are burning "hydrogen" is just in your mind. That's why I said run your rig on that same bubbler without all the electrical "hydrogen" bullshit and try to tell me there's a difference.
If there IS one, it's because you altered your own driving habits to try to be right, and that's how these internet myths start.
Lastone User ID: 432018 5/12/2008 9:07 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
What Meyer found out is that you need to reduce the combustion of the hydrogen and oxigen to have viable combustion engine fuel, like gasoline or diesel.
How can you do that you ask ? By puting non combustive gases in the misture. What it does is that it slows down the combustion of hydrogen and oxigen to make it burn at the same velocity as gasoline.
You inject hydrogen in one side then non combustible gases and in the end oxigen.
Non cumbistible gases like .... exaust gases....
This way you can run your car only with envoiromental oxygen... hydrogen and the exaust gases from the combustion.
Please if this is wrong say so... !!
Anonymous Coward User ID: 341774 5/12/2008 9:28 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
What Meyer found out is that you need to reduce the combustion of the hydrogen and oxigen to have viable combustion engine fuel, like gasoline or diesel.
How can you do that you ask ? By puting non combustive gases in the misture. What it does is that it slows down the combustion of hydrogen and oxigen to make it burn at the same velocity as gasoline.
You inject hydrogen in one side then non combustible gases and in the end oxigen.
Non cumbistible gases like .... exaust gases....
This way you can run your car only with envoiromental oxygen... hydrogen and the exaust gases from the combustion.
Please if this is wrong say so... !!
Quoting: Lastone 432018
English as second language?
Pal User ID: 429946 5/12/2008 10:16 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Yeah, but you didn't answer my question. I'm just trying to figure out what is actually happening with these "bubbler" systems. Here is a repeat:
I wonder if with that "bubbler", you aren't just leaning out your gas/fuel mixture. After all, you are inserting more air via a vacuum line, right? How is that different than just a vacuum leak, other than it being a more humid one?
Im kinda curious on this one too. I know if you inject water into a gas/air mixture it will increase your octane. Increasing your octane will make your fuel burn slower. They use water injection on some sport vehicles with a turbo chargers or centrifugal blowers. Do you think you can draw us up a diagram on how you have this bubbler hooked up to your vehicle?
Quoting: Grower 429597
I can answer that. I have been studying them. It simply consists of a "T" inserted in a vacuum line and that 3rd line goes into the top of a bottle of water. The inlet to that bottle has a tube which goes under the water and ends in an aquarium stone bubbler. The vacuum in the bottle causes air to enter through the stone and pass up through the water. That air then goes into the carb via the vac line. I think it would have to cause a leaning of the mixture. Maybe that's all it does. That's what I am wondering about.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 411384 5/12/2008 10:29 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
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