I have been studying them. It simply consists of a "T" inserted in a vacuum line and that 3rd line goes into the top of a bottle of water. The inlet to that bottle has a tube which goes under the water and ends in an aquarium stone bubbler. The vacuum in the bottle causes air to enter through the stone and pass up through the water. That air then goes into the carb via the vac line. I think it would have to cause a leaning of the mixture. Maybe that's all it does. That's what I am wondering about.
Quoting: Pal 429946
There is nothing to wonder about, the leaner mixture is more explosive and thus raises rpm's, but the water vapor is supposed to quench it so it doesn't burn your valves. The "hydrogen" angle is pure fantasy that has been added on by fakers, nobody can substantiate it, they can pretend "hydrogen" all they want but it's just this same 70's ancient tech water injection that works the exact same way without their deluded electrification hydrogen fanciful imaginary stupidity.
modern computer feedback is intended to reduce emissions by maintaining a 'stoichiometric' ratio, very wise, perfectly perfect in every way, and leaning out your ratio while fooling the oxygen sensor just proves we need smaller engines, ***NOT*** smaller cars. And it spikes the emissions. Emission control Vs. mileage is a 70's concept, we no longer have to choose between those because we have them both, we are not savages, we walked on the Moon, the 'stoichiometric' way via oxygen sensor feedback in realtime regulating fuel ratio is extremely good and complete and responsible, and if you want higher mileage the solution is smaller MODERN engines, not figuring out 70's ways to spike the emissions of the engine you have.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 389762 5/12/2008 10:59 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Meyers spark plug worked like this:
Super heat steam is injected into the cylinder and exposed to a high voltage spark causing an explosion pushing the piston down. All with one replacement plug.
Try again Lastone.
Either you know not what you speak of OR you are purposefully spreading disinfo.
the blue being the super heated steam and positive is red and negative is black. But our problem is we dont have the resources to create something like this.
Quoting: Grower 429597
Sure we do...
Anonymous Coward User ID: 399680 5/12/2008 11:16 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Meyers spark plug worked like this:
Super heat steam is injected into the cylinder and exposed to a high voltage spark causing an explosion pushing the piston down. All with one replacement plug.
Try again Lastone.
Either you know not what you speak of OR you are purposefully spreading disinfo.
the blue being the super heated steam and positive is red and negative is black. But our problem is we dont have the resources to create something like this.
Sure we do...
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 389762
photo is gone
V User ID: 298429 5/13/2008 12:03 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
I've been following this entire thread, and while I have seen some very good discussion, and some great informational resources, one thing has been bothering me.
Either I'm having a totally different understanding / interpretation of Stan's process, or I'm mis-reading other people's postings because I'm not seeing the same thing being discussed that I'm getting out of Stan's own words in the various 1980's era's film clips wherein he describes it himself.
Conceptually, what I am seeing is:
The WHOLE CELL is in fact turned into a giant capacitor.
Well ok not the WHOLE thing, but......like this.
He's using low level voltage pulsed cycled into the fuel cell.
Because he has all these vertical rods, one smaller diameter and one outer larger diameter 304 Stainless steel rod.
He's applying the anode (+) to one rod and the Neg (-) to the other.
The result of this is that the water molecules in between the two rods are 'stretched' to the limit of their covalent molecular bond. Meanwhile, the cell (acting as a giant capacitor) continues to build up it's charge until it reaches maximum capacitance at which point it shorts out within itself. At that moment the voltage is converted from volts to amps. The sudden high amperage discharge sheers the H atoms from the O atom instantly and in massive volume.
This is why there's so much H discharged in a Meyers cell.
And this happens (rods pulse charge, reach critical mass, short out internally and destroy the covalent molecular bond of a water molecule several times a second.)
Then Meyers also captures some of the displaced electrons and feeds them back into the VIC (voltage intensifier circuit)so the whole thing becomes self sustaining.
Meyer's is using NO electrolyte what-so-ever.
Everyone here so far is discussing very elementary water electrolysis using an electrolyte and a fairly large direct current to achieve minimal production.
(I have nothing setup in my as or my workbench so this is NOT meant as an insult, I commend everyone for their individual efforts achievements and the journey of discovery, I hope to join you soon myself, but more on the journey that RAVI has gone down, which is to replicate Meyers success because that's where the bar is at, working below that bar for me personally would be far less gratifying)
Anyway....I'm I way off base here?
Most the posts seem to only discuss the electrical pulse of the Meyers process, not the fact that what really was the breakthrough (based on my understanding) was creating a giant capacitor which would short itself out several times per second.
Any thoughts appreciated as this really excites me and I think this should be (relatively) easy to replicate.
V
Grower User ID: 429597 5/13/2008 12:03 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
We are working our way there V. If you noticed we had to go to home depot to get stainless steel wall cover plates.You usually have to start from ground 0 and work your way up on stuff thats new to you. Not start from level 10. I have never gone through stanly meyers stuff before just glanced at a few pages here and there. I think i should because im getting different interpretations from different people.
On a side note i managed to convert a gasoline powered lawn mower to propane today! wooo!
Grower User ID: 429597 5/13/2008 12:15 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
The "hydrogen" angle is pure fantasy that has been added on by fakers, nobody can substantiate it, they can pretend "hydrogen" all they want but it's just this same 70's ancient tech water injection that works the exact same way without their deluded electrification hydrogen fanciful imaginary stupidity.
Quoting: Henry "Hank" TwoBear 341774
And you have tested tested this and all designs and you are ;
(a) A master mechanic
(b) A mechanical engineer
(c) Another stupid troll
(C)
Anonymous Coward User ID: 298429 5/13/2008 9:22 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
We are working our way there V. If you noticed we had to go to home depot to get stainless steel wall cover plates.You usually have to start from ground 0 and work your way up on stuff thats new to you. Not start from level 10. I have never gone through stanly meyers stuff before just glanced at a few pages here and there. I think i should because im getting different interpretations from different people.
On a side note i managed to convert a gasoline powered lawn mower to propane today! wooo!
Quoting: Grower 429597
I hear ya bro. As I posted originally, no offense, I was hoping that You, Primordial, EvilTwin, Lastone and the other real posters in this thread (not the woo woo trolls) could critique my interpretation of the Meyers process and or add their own thoughts since I was concerned I might be off base.
Pal User ID: 429946 5/13/2008 9:52 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
I have been studying them. It simply consists of a "T" inserted in a vacuum line and that 3rd line goes into the top of a bottle of water. The inlet to that bottle has a tube which goes under the water and ends in an aquarium stone bubbler. The vacuum in the bottle causes air to enter through the stone and pass up through the water. That air then goes into the carb via the vac line. I think it would have to cause a leaning of the mixture. Maybe that's all it does. That's what I am wondering about.
There is nothing to wonder about, the leaner mixture is more explosive and thus raises rpm's, but the water vapor is supposed to quench it so it doesn't burn your valves. The "hydrogen" angle is pure fantasy that has been added on by fakers, nobody can substantiate it, they can pretend "hydrogen" all they want but it's just this same 70's ancient tech water injection that works the exact same way without their deluded electrification hydrogen fanciful imaginary stupidity.
Quoting: Henry "Hank" TwoBear 341774
You seem to be confusing two separate things. The "bubbler" system I was asking about does not *generally* pretend to utilize hydrogen. I admit that the person I was asking about his particular "bubbler" was attempting to utilize enhanced water which, he thought, would have gained some benefit by having had HHO previously bubbled through *IT*. However, that is beside the point of my question. I was just trying to figure out what was happening with these systems that bubble through plain water. The whole "electrification hydrogen" system, as you call it, is a completely different thing.
Odd that you would answer my question while also telling me that it didn't need asking. No need to be so condescending, hmm?
modern computer feedback is intended to reduce emissions by maintaining a 'stoichiometric' ratio, very wise, perfectly perfect in every way, and leaning out your ratio while fooling the oxygen sensor just proves we need smaller engines, ***NOT*** smaller cars. And it spikes the emissions. Emission control Vs. mileage is a 70's concept, we no longer have to choose between those because we have them both, we are not savages, we walked on the Moon, the 'stoichiometric' way via oxygen sensor feedback in realtime regulating fuel ratio is extremely good and complete and responsible, and if you want higher mileage the solution is smaller MODERN engines, not figuring out 70's ways to spike the emissions of the engine you have.
Quoting: Henry "Hank" TwoBear 341774
Again, I think you have missed the point, or perhaps *several* points in this discussion. The HHO electrolysis systems are NOT simply leaning out the mixture like the "bubbler" system of my original question. The HHO systems ARE producing hydrogen/oxygen- that is not in question. My question about *that* system is whether there is a net gain over the electrical energy required to aquire and deliver it to the combustion chamber. That is a completely different question and subject than I was asking about with my "bubbler" question.
Grower User ID: 429597 5/13/2008 10:53 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
The HHO electrolysis systems are NOT simply leaning out the mixture like the "bubbler" system of my original question. The HHO systems ARE producing hydrogen/oxygen- that is not in question. My question about *that* system is whether there is a net gain over the electrical energy required to aquire and deliver it to the combustion chamber. That is a completely different question and subject than I was asking about with my "bubbler" question.
Quoting: Pal 429946
The bubbler is not leaning out anything. It's simply changing the octane of the fuel. The HHO IS leaning out the mixture. Hence the use of an extra circuit to aid the O2 sensors. If your seeing higher RPM from the bubbler its because the fuel is burning through out the whole power stroke of the 4 stroke engine. Unlike lower octane fuel will explode immediately and possibly only for 1/4 of the power stroke.
cameldreamer User ID: 432401 5/13/2008 11:38 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
I have been playing around with a small cell i have made consisting of a 10 mm inox rod with a length of 15cm and a small inox tube 18mm diameter and length of 12 cm.
I am using destilled water only as my electrolite.
What i find is that if i increase the voltage to the cell above 15Volts dc the cell conducts and heats the water.
I thought the destilled water was not pure so i bought another bottle from a auto spares shop.
i cleaned the cell thoroughly with distilled water and refilled but i still have leakage current.
When i increase the voltage on the cell to 200v the gas production increases but there is a lot of heat.
What i am trying to prove is if "meyers" theory actually works.
I read that distilled water does not conduct and is a insulator and what i have found is that this is not the case.
i have built a complex variable voltage pulse generator which ranges from 1000 to 8000v output 150watts. when i connect this to the water it simple shorts out because of the leakage current.
Has anyone attempted anything similar?
my email is: jcamelo@clix.pt
thanks
jose
Grower User ID: 429597 5/13/2008 11:50 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
You might try adding electrolyte to the solution. It maybe getting hot because the electricity has nowhere to flow as fast as it wants. What kind of ampere are you drawing?
cameldreamer User ID: 432401 5/13/2008 11:58 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
I do not wish to add a electrolyte to my cell.
Meyers claimed he could produce large qty´s off hydrogen from a cell using only distilled water.
What i am trying to do is test his theories.
cameldreamer User ID: 432401 5/13/2008 12:03 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
You might try adding electrolyte to the solution. It maybe getting hot because the electricity has nowhere to flow as fast as it wants. What kind of ampere are you drawing?
Quoting: Grower 429597
Hey whats the best way to check for amps on a 6 plate circuit with 3 pos and 3 neg?
Ok so after different configurations with the plates I found that the most impressive was +--+-- and i need to go get one more plate because i want to try +--+--+.
I will do a video this week of it working. The plates could be closer and I think thats why my wires are getting hot fast. Unless someone else has an idea why. With the 3 plate cofig I did in my videos it just got a tad warm on the pos side when it was --+ SO can someone shed a bit of light out here for me.
I am guessing I need to maybe add on more + to make a 7 plate circuit and try to get the plates closer togther. I know the post above said something about getting them as close as possible.
cameldreamer User ID: 432401 5/13/2008 12:28 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
From my experiences i have found that a distance of 2-3 mm is the best distance between plates.
With the configuration +--+--+ this is a series cell(be carefull of leakage between plates). it should consume less current than the configuration +-+-+-+
To measure current you can use a clamp meter on either the +ve or negative wires, or a ampmeter in series with the cell.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 422179 5/13/2008 3:34 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
I have followed this thread very intently as well as some others here and thought I would add my 2 cents. It seems that a high voltage low current power sent to the plates is what some are looking at. I found this [link to www.techlib.com]
and think it may be worth a try. If I read this right, the circuit in the link above ramps the voltage up until it detects a leakage current above 100uA. Then it drops the voltage and starts over again to give you a pulsing supply of power. The amount of current leakage can be adjusted by using different size capacitors in the high voltage section. Don't take my word for it, read it and understand it yourself. But is this what some of you are trying to achieve? I would think this would be a good way of limiting the current draw as well as the heat. I'm going to start to build a cell as well using the principles at least of what I described. If I find anything of relevance I will let you guys know. If anyone decides to try this and beats me to it, let me know your results as I really don't have the time or the money to do this if it is already proven not to work out. Thanks.
Lastone User ID: 432518 5/13/2008 3:47 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
maybe my distilled water is not pure enough.
I am going to try to make my own from steam amd will post my tests.
To apply "Meyers" principle we want no leakage in the cell at low voltage.
Quoting: cameldreamer 432401
Your problem is amps... not volts.
Only 0.5 amps is what you need to use. This way you do not heat the water. You only consume energy (electricity) when you consume amps. So if you are putting energy in to the cell.. this energy is converted in heat.
To have a god pulse you need an open circuit. Do not use isolated wire. The wire will get extra volts from vacuum. More volts and less amps.
The water is not the problem. The problem is that you are not putting in the necessary volts to hit the ressonance of water, derfor, you're not making it off balance. You need to distabilize the water molecule and to do that you need lots of volts using almost 0 amps.
The use of distilled water is becausee it doesn't produce a deposit of hard metals and minerals. It is better to have a non quimical envoironement assembly.
Why is it better to use stainless steal 304? Because it does not react with the water electrolise...it is not affected by the reaction or by the voltage not deteriorating itself and not producing sub products in the process.
This is how I see it... if it is wrong please inform.
Lastone User ID: 432518 5/13/2008 3:55 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
I am limiting the current at 300mA.
At the moment i am pulsing my cell with a 50% duty cycle and am increasing the voltage slowly.
when it gets to about 160v i cannot increase it anymore because of the current limit.
250ml of water boils in less than 10 minutes at ,3*160= 48watts
the voltage when the water boils actually drops to 140volts
According to "Meyer" he was using kilovolts to drive his cell.
i cannot exceed 160v,that is why i think my distilled water is crap
keep well
josé
sou português.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 214557 5/13/2008 4:13 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
You might try adding electrolyte to the solution. It maybe getting hot because the electricity has nowhere to flow as fast as it wants. What kind of ampere are you drawing?
Hey whats the best way to check for amps on a 6 plate circuit with 3 pos and 3 neg?
Quoting: Primordial
Use an amp meter in-line. On a 12v system you get heat when you have too few plates, allow for 1 cell for every 2v of power.
N stands for a plate that is not connected to any wires.
- N N + N N - this is a 7 plate (6 cell) arrangement. With no electrolyte it should handle 12v without heating up. The amps are determined by the space between the plates and/or by using electrolyte.
scimitar User ID: 23006 5/13/2008 4:14 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
I've been following this entire thread, and while I have seen some very good discussion, and some great informational resources, one thing has been bothering me.
Either I'm having a totally different understanding / interpretation of Stan's process, or I'm mis-reading other people's postings because I'm not seeing the same thing being discussed that I'm getting out of Stan's own words in the various 1980's era's film clips wherein he describes it himself.
Conceptually, what I am seeing is:
The WHOLE CELL is in fact turned into a giant capacitor.
Well ok not the WHOLE thing, but......like this.
He's using low level voltage pulsed cycled into the fuel cell.
Because he has all these vertical rods, one smaller diameter and one outer larger diameter 304 Stainless steel rod.
He's applying the anode (+) to one rod and the Neg (-) to the other.
The result of this is that the water molecules in between the two rods are 'stretched' to the limit of their covalent molecular bond. Meanwhile, the cell (acting as a giant capacitor) continues to build up it's charge until it reaches maximum capacitance at which point it shorts out within itself. At that moment the voltage is converted from volts to amps. The sudden high amperage discharge sheers the H atoms from the O atom instantly and in massive volume.
This is why there's so much H discharged in a Meyers cell.
And this happens (rods pulse charge, reach critical mass, short out internally and destroy the covalent molecular bond of a water molecule several times a second.)
Then Meyers also captures some of the displaced electrons and feeds them back into the VIC (voltage intensifier circuit)so the whole thing becomes self sustaining.
Meyer's is using NO electrolyte what-so-ever.
Everyone here so far is discussing very elementary water electrolysis using an electrolyte and a fairly large direct current to achieve minimal production.
(I have nothing setup in my as or my workbench so this is NOT meant as an insult, I commend everyone for their individual efforts achievements and the journey of discovery, I hope to join you soon myself, but more on the journey that RAVI has gone down, which is to replicate Meyers success because that's where the bar is at, working below that bar for me personally would be far less gratifying)
Anyway....I'm I way off base here?
Most the posts seem to only discuss the electrical pulse of the Meyers process, not the fact that what really was the breakthrough (based on my understanding) was creating a giant capacitor which would short itself out several times per second.
Any thoughts appreciated as this really excites me and I think this should be (relatively) easy to replicate.
V
Quoting: V 298429
Hey V,
I am most interested in the basic concept of Meyers as well, It makes sense to me in several ways. I'm very close to having the motivation to begin building something my self.
The biggest impediment is building a fairly genuine replication, as Bedini used to say ...." build it just the way I said, don't change anything until you have it working". I have a tendancy to use my own imagination to figure out what might work best.
There is a great deal of info to probably replicate it with a lot of accuracy, but there are several details that would seem to be left out.
I certainly have no desire to build a general electrolysis cell. I am just glad to see people taking an interest though. It makes me want to find the best way to encourage people to keep learning. And to find a way to get myself off my butt and get busy!
Even if I fail.... just keep on trying.
I've started so many projects and gotten side tracked, it's hard to stay focused on one idea. I've built a Newman motor, a Bedini motor and a couple of variations of magnetic field experiments. The Newman motor was the most intriguing and promising though...... Really want to get back to it.
One Truth.....many realities
Lastone User ID: 432518 5/13/2008 4:25 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
I am limiting the current at 300mA.
At the moment i am pulsing my cell with a 50% duty cycle and am increasing the voltage slowly.
when it gets to about 160v i cannot increase it anymore because of the current limit.
250ml of water boils in less than 10 minutes at ,3*160= 48watts
the voltage when the water boils actually drops to 140volts
According to "Meyer" he was using kilovolts to drive his cell.
i cannot exceed 160v,that is why i think my distilled water is crap
The HHO electrolysis systems are NOT simply leaning out the mixture like the "bubbler" system of my original question. The HHO systems ARE producing hydrogen/oxygen- that is not in question. My question about *that* system is whether there is a net gain over the electrical energy required to aquire and deliver it to the combustion chamber. That is a completely different question and subject than I was asking about with my "bubbler" question.
The bubbler is not leaning out anything.
Quoting: Grower 429597
How could it not be? It is introducing more air into the air/fuel mixture, is it not?
It's simply changing the octane of the fuel.
Quoting: Grower 429597
I understand that water has the tendancy to do that. However, is there enough water being introduced through "bubbling" to do that?
The HHO IS leaning out the mixture.
Quoting: Grower 429597
How could it do that? It is introducimg more fuel, isn't it? I guess it is also introducing more oxygen too, is that what you mean?
Hence the use of an extra circuit to aid the O2 sensors.
OK. I think I know what you mean, here.
If your seeing higher RPM
Quoting: Grower 429597
If my seeing what? That doesn't make sense.
from the bubbler its because the fuel is burning through out the whole power stroke of the 4 stroke engine. Unlike lower octane fuel will explode immediately and possibly only for 1/4 of the power stroke.
Quoting: Grower 429597
I think I see what you mean there. Thanks. Again, are you sure there is enough H2O being introduced by "bubbling" to do that?
Please explain what you mean by: "If your seeing higher RPM..."
scimitar I Just wanna know User ID: 373365 5/13/2008 6:16 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
I am limiting the current at 300mA.
At the moment i am pulsing my cell with a 50% duty cycle and am increasing the voltage slowly.
when it gets to about 160v i cannot increase it anymore because of the current limit.
250ml of water boils in less than 10 minutes at ,3*160= 48watts
the voltage when the water boils actually drops to 140volts
According to "Meyer" he was using kilovolts to drive his cell.
i cannot exceed 160v,that is why i think my distilled water is crap
keep well
josé
sou português.
Quoting: cameldreamer 432522
I have a few questions. Do You have the series resonance inductors in the circuit? What pulse width do you have? and are you generating a pulse train to charge the cell. His design (whether it actually works or not I have no idea), calls for basically a series resonant cicuit. also the description I read says that as soon as the pulse train results in any current at all the pulses will stop for a relaxation period. I realize it complicates the circuit design, but based on his description that's what it takes.
Hopefully I will join the crew soon in doing some construction myself. I have a very strong electronic backround and could assist in some design suggestions if anyone needs them. One Truth.... many realities
Lastone User ID: 432518 5/13/2008 8:12 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
The Hydrogen Fracturing Process (Technical Brief) Book
Voltage is basically the difference of electrons in two different locations. The greater the difference in the number of electrons in one location compared to the second location, the higher the voltage.
When you put the water molecule in a voltage field it will move itself to the appropriate positive and negative voltage fields. This happens because water is a dipole molecule with a positive and negative ends.
Restricting electron flow and using pulses gave Stanley the following advantages over electrolysis:
* The gap between the electrodes could be kept to a minimum (around 1mm). This was achieved because arcing could not occur with restricted electron flow.
* keeps voltage high across the electrodes and prevents it from dropping to nothing.
What happens is ...
The water will work as a capacitator and by doing that it will block the electrons flow and amps will drop to a minimum. Voltage will rase to thousands.
when you tune-in to the dielectric property of water.. the voltage increase could rase to infinity, that doesn't happen only because the components of the circuits will not alow it to happen.
The Cell is easy ... to make it work, what's important is the pulse and the frequency to get the voltage you need. You should focus on that.
WHy? Because the cell as to work as a capacitator. To do that the plates distance as to be minimum (1mm). To get that distance and not SHORT the circuit you need to reduce the electrons flow and tune the frequency. When you do that, you will go from 500 volts and 4/5 amps to 0.5 amps and thousands of volts.
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