i live in portugal near the city of agueda.
i am a electronics technician and my work is in the designing of electronic equipment.
i have a good knowledge of both digital and analogue electronics so replicating "Meyers" electronics circuit is not a problem.
I have limited my current to 100uA as you suggested and i find that i cannot exceed 16-20v pulsed dc with a 50% duty cycle.
I have tried frequencies between 20 and 1000 hz and the results are similar.
What i have discovered is my cell is working like a battery
without any voltage applied to it i measure +/- 1.2v.
i load the cell with a 3k3 ohm resistor and the voltage slowly drops, as it should in a capacitor circuit, but if i measure open circuit voltage it goes back to 1.2v.
That is not how a capacitor works, more like a battery.
Some people have stated that meyers circuit has to resonate to work correctly. I do not agree because there is a diode in the the path so resonation is not possible.
the coils used must be for smoothing purposes.?
To obtain a oscillator circuit the coil should be in parallel with the cell but with no diode.
note: the spacing between tubes is 2mm.
i have new larger tubes with a spacing of 2mm, i will try them during the week.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 432658 5/13/2008 10:53 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
I'm not debunking! I'm actually trying to do this.
I should have tried it years ago when you could still get the plans for free.
The one I remember used cylinders in cylinders. How they made it operate I don't know and can't remember. At the time it did seem to be to complicated for me to carry out.
But that was then. And I wish I had saved all that stuff to disk.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 432658 5/13/2008 11:14 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
The way I've heard it described in a video is the Meyers cell works as a capacitor to the point of failure.
There for he must have been using water as the plates. Once failure occurs he must have had a way to replace the "used" water/plates in a way that would let it continue using up the water/plates.
I hope this makes sense. More than likely the amount of water he was using was very small as far as a "cell" goes.
The way I under stand it he was more or less separating all the components of an amount of water in an instant and using those components an instant after separation.
Time has to play a huge part in this.
I really do believe that one day we can use water as fuel just as easily as we do gasoline.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 432658 5/13/2008 11:19 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
i live in portugal near the city of agueda.
i am a electronics technician and my work is in the designing of electronic equipment.
i have a good knowledge of both digital and analogue electronics so replicating "Meyers" electronics circuit is not a problem.
I have limited my current to 100uA as you suggested and i find that i cannot exceed 16-20v pulsed dc with a 50% duty cycle.
I have tried frequencies between 20 and 1000 hz and the results are similar.
What i have discovered is my cell is working like a battery
without any voltage applied to it i measure +/- 1.2v.
i load the cell with a 3k3 ohm resistor and the voltage slowly drops, as it should in a capacitor circuit, but if i measure open circuit voltage it goes back to 1.2v.
That is not how a capacitor works, more like a battery.
Some people have stated that meyers circuit has to resonate to work correctly. I do not agree because there is a diode in the the path so resonation is not possible.
the coils used must be for smoothing purposes.?
To obtain a oscillator circuit the coil should be in parallel with the cell but with no diode.
note: the spacing between tubes is 2mm.
i have new larger tubes with a spacing of 2mm, i will try them during the week.
Quoting: cameldreamer 432672
First I agree with you that the circuit that was shown will not oscillate primarily because of the diode. It is possible that the inductors in the circuit are there simply to filter the rectified pulses from the step up transformer so that the charging of the capacitive water cell will proceed at a slower pace. If there is leakage current through the cell limiting the amount of voltage you can apply then I would say that the water is not pure enough. Perhaps you can purchase a bottle of distilled water to try. Also a thourough cleaning of the containment vessel would be advised to limit the impurities introduced into the water.
Secondly, if you are seeing a voltage across the cell as a battery is because of dis-similar metals in an ion filled solution. Perhaps the connections to the stainless steel electrodes are the problem.
As with many ideas people present as being anomolous or associated with getting something for nothing there does exist the possibility that it is either not true or there is a fine detail that has been left out of the description that is the actual key to sucessful operation. If the operation is truely how Meyer states it to be then it is entirely possible that the surface of the electrodes is coated with an isulative layer to prevent or reduce current flow. One Truth.... many realities
cameldreamer User ID: 432965 5/14/2008 11:39 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Thank you for your comments.
I am using distilled water in my cell, actually i have purchased 2 diferent types of distilled water.
On the bottle it says the leakage current is smaller than 30uA per cm.
I am cleaning my cell with distilled water but i still have high leakage current.
i am going to replace the tubes in the cell this week and see if i get better results.
If you know of a better way to clean the cell do tell.
thanks
scimitar I Just wanna know User ID: 15504 5/14/2008 12:07 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
At the moment I can only add logical comments with no actual experience in working with electrical conduction through water. I will make some measurements when I get home this evening to determine what kind of resistance I see with distilled water and tap water. Can you give me an estimate of the suface area or dimensions of the electrodes you are using? One Truth.... many realities
cameldreamer User ID: 433074 5/14/2008 2:39 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
I thing i know why my cell has problems.
The outer tube has small magnetic properties in some sections and especially on the tips.
Maybe that is why it is behaving like a battery.
I going to buy new tubes and start from scratch again.
the size i am using is:
inner tube 10mm*150mm
outer tube 17mm*120mm
thickness 1.5mm
spacing between tubes 2mm
Lastone User ID: 433076 5/14/2008 2:42 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
i live in portugal near the city of agueda.
i am a electronics technician and my work is in the designing of electronic equipment.
i have a good knowledge of both digital and analogue electronics so replicating "Meyers" electronics circuit is not a problem.
I have limited my current to 100uA as you suggested and i find that i cannot exceed 16-20v pulsed dc with a 50% duty cycle.
I have tried frequencies between 20 and 1000 hz and the results are similar.
What i have discovered is my cell is working like a battery
without any voltage applied to it i measure +/- 1.2v.
i load the cell with a 3k3 ohm resistor and the voltage slowly drops, as it should in a capacitor circuit, but if i measure open circuit voltage it goes back to 1.2v.
That is not how a capacitor works, more like a battery.
Some people have stated that meyers circuit has to resonate to work correctly. I do not agree because there is a diode in the the path so resonation is not possible.
the coils used must be for smoothing purposes.?
To obtain a oscillator circuit the coil should be in parallel with the cell but with no diode.
note: the spacing between tubes is 2mm.
i have new larger tubes with a spacing of 2mm, i will try them during the week.
Quoting: cameldreamer 432672
Hi Cameldreamer,
Ok ...I understand your problem. You have a distance of 2mm between the tubs but you don't have the volts.. correct?
What happens when you aply corrent to the tubes but not enoughf volts to built a magnetic field ? You do not built a capacitator, because you short the circuit. You have discharges between the tubes and when that happens the magnetic field that you are trying to built drops to zero and so it is not possible to make the resistence to the electrons flow to rase the voltage. You're charging the water and not creating a strong magnetic field. You only creat a capacitator when the magnetic force does not alow the electrons to jump free from the tube to the water. When the magnetic field drops to zero the molecule of water forms again.. why? Because the atoms are free again from the plates and you have free electrons. They need to stabillise so... you do not produce more hydrogen. You start to have hydrogen till you start puting free electrons in the water and losing voltage and start again from the beginning till the next discharge and so on. This is how I see it... but I'm not a Dr. on this... I have lots of imagination and that's all. :) lol
I do not know how did you built your circuit but ... you do not talk about a capacitator before the cell. You need one.
You need to put in the cell more volts that you are doing from the pulse. So use a capacitator in the circuit before the cell, to rase the volts input.
Are you doing this already?
If you understand this subject I'm going to ask you this:
If you install a manual switch to make a manual pulse and a strong magnet between it and the cell what happens?
Then what happens when you reverse the magnet connection and have the switch on? You will see that you stop the voltage to the cell. If you measure it, it will be zero volts after the magnet.
Now pulse the reverse magnet connection.... you will see!!
Try to do it and you will understand me.
Measure that going out ...
I just started to experiment with this and I'm getting a brown scum on top of the water.
Is that normal?
So far all I've done it align three plates together with positive and negative on the outside plates.
Seems to be cooking along fine other than the brown scum.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 432645
yeah i am not getting "scum" but a few little brown particles, I am using baking powder as an electrolyte, I am using stainless steel switch plates from home depot (they probally arent the top of the line SS) I heard that ultimately you want to aquire 316L stainless as it gives off very little if any debris.
I am also guessing that my copper wires in the water and aligator clips are part of this "scum" process
Seems to me if you want to add them together in the same tank the configuration should be,,, a series of +o- seperated by o
+o-o+o-o+o-o+o-o+o-
Maybe you'll see less resistance that way.
I really don't know, it just seems logical to me.
I did rush to get it going by using tap water maybe that's where the scum is coming from. And chlorine as well.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 432645
On the note of scum I am also using tap water,,maybe that is adding to it also.
Yes in the first vdeo I did use a middle neutral plate, Then in the final video I went with --+ I just hooked the two left plates up to my aligator clip and noticed it produced alot more than using a nuetral plate.
Now if you guys are telling me that the neutral plate may cut down on the heat generation then I may go back to experimenting with that. As of right now I have a 7 plate system as: +--+--+ And seems to be producing well, and mind you the plates have a good gap on them I need to make a way to get them much closer than they are now,
My main concern is tring to cut down on how hot the + gets i know that means a high amp draw, So I am guessing I need to make the plates closer/try some neutrals.
I thing i know why my cell has problems.
The outer tube has small magnetic properties in some sections and especially on the tips.
Maybe that is why it is behaving like a battery.
I going to buy new tubes and start from scratch again.
the size i am using is:
inner tube 10mm*150mm
outer tube 17mm*120mm
thickness 1.5mm
spacing between tubes 2mm
Quoting: cameldreamer 433074
Cameldreamer I dont know if you did or I missed it but can you make some videos with the tube configuration i want to see which set uo plates or tubes generates more HHO Thanks!
You people need to wake up. Forget about running your cars.
Think about how you will get water, food shelter and medicine.
It's over.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 431613
Umm I know how to aquire water from many sources, I know many sorces for food (even bugs), and I am quite competent in shelter building and aquireing many different items for shelter, plus I have extensive knowledge on natural and artificial medicines...i just havent learned to use water as a fuel source....
In case anyone missed my last test setup as a --+ setup. Currently I am setting up a 7 plate system +--+--+ and I will have a video up shortly! Thanks!
cameldreamer User ID: 433111 5/14/2008 3:45 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
And then thinking about how sometimes transformers are wound on toroidal coil forms. Because the magnetic field is contained within the toroid they are more efficient.
Ok ...I understand your problem. You have a distance of 2mm between the tubs but you don't have the volts.. correct?
What happens when you aply corrent to the tubes but not enoughf volts to built a magnetic field ? You do not built a capacitator, because you short the circuit. You have discharges between the tubes and when that happens the magnetic field that you are trying to built drops to zero and so it is not possible to make the resistence to the electrons flow to rase the voltage. You're charging the water and not creating a strong magnetic field. You only creat a capacitator when the magnetic force does not alow the electrons to jump free from the tube to the water. When the magnetic field drops to zero the molecule of water forms again.. why? Because the atoms are free again from the plates and you have free electrons. They need to stabillise so... you do not produce more hydrogen. You start to have hydrogen till you start puting free electrons in the water and losing voltage and start again from the beginning till the next discharge and so on. This is how I see it... but I'm not a Dr. on this... I have lots of imagination and that's all. :) lol
I do not know how did you built your circuit but ... you do not talk about a capacitator before the cell. You need one.
You need to put in the cell more volts that you are doing from the pulse. So use a capacitator in the circuit before the cell, to rase the volts input.
Are you doing this already?
If you understand this subject I'm going to ask you this:
If you install a manual switch to make a manual pulse and a strong magnet between it and the cell what happens?
Then what happens when you reverse the magnet connection and have the switch on? You will see that you stop the voltage to the cell. If you measure it, it will be zero volts after the magnet.
Now pulse the reverse magnet connection.... you will see!!
Try to do it and you will understand me.
Measure that going out ...
Maybe this can help you..
Quoting: Lastone 433076
Hey Lastone,
You said not to correct your teminology so I won't.
Glad to see you trying to build the Meyers embodiment. I suppose I will attempt it soon myself. Will be interested to see what you find.
Have you under stood Meyers description to say that in order for the splitting to occut that an actual breakdown discharge must be forced to happen? Or is that just the limit not to be exceeded?
I was under the impression that the idea was to gradually reach a peak voltage then allow a relaxation time for the cell. Regardless of the volume of gas production realized if no or very little average DC current flows through the cell then I would consider that to be a success.
Also are you putting in a current detection to stop pulsing the cell or are just setting an arbitrary on /off duty cycle for the pulsing? Since you said you are using two 555 timers I assume the latter.
Anyway Good Luck..... hopefully you will keep us informed. One Truth.... many realities
scimitar I Just wanna know User ID: 23006 5/14/2008 5:29 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Oh by the way lastone. You mentioned inserting a capacitor in the circuit, are you going to place it in series?
Two things to remember..... make sure it is rated high enough to handle the same voltage level you would expect to see in the pulse peaks, and if it is a low leakage capacitor it will eventually charge itself to the highest potential occurring on the voltage pulses and no longer allow any voltage pontential left for the water cell. If this is the way you are going to use it you will have to provide a discharge path during relaxation time. One Truth.... many realities
Lastone User ID: 433212 5/14/2008 7:23 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Oh by the way lastone. You mentioned inserting a capacitor in the circuit, are you going to place it in series?
Two things to remember..... make sure it is rated high enough to handle the same voltage level you would expect to see in the pulse peaks, and if it is a low leakage capacitor it will eventually charge itself to the highest potential occurring on the voltage pulses and no longer allow any voltage pontential left for the water cell. If this is the way you are going to use it you will have to provide a discharge path during relaxation time.
Quoting: scimitar
Hi Scimitar...
First .. that's not me on the video. That video is one of many that I have on my computer. Go to the youtube web page and see the videos from the poster. You will find many answers to your questions and also many new questions.
I do not agree with many things that he does... and I've found a diferent answers to the same questions.
What is important in all this is to use our imagination. Truth always have a backdoor.
You need a secoundary circuit... no relaxation time.when you make the pulse you need a small flow of voltage in constante to mantain the increase, not leting the voltage to drop in the gap.
I came to the conclusion that you need zero point energy to get the volts Meyer talks about in is videos. You need to amplify your voltage before and in the cell. I may be wrong and did not test it but from my calculations you need a second magnetic field out of the cell and the other in the cell.
what is voltage ? understanding this is the most important of all. Stop and think... Read this ...
(Quote:)
There are three known different forces/fields. They are gravity, magnetism, and voltage.
Voltage is basically the difference of electrons in two different locations. The greater the difference in the number of electrons in one location compared to the second location, the higher the voltage.
(end quote.)
Now a question... if you have a constante pulse what does that pulse provide to you?
Exemple:
1st pulse 10 electrons ... 1 secound .... 10 electrons and so on...
what is wrong in this ??? Always the same number of electrons in the pulse .. yes??
So .. how about having a pulse like this ..
Exemple:
1st 5 electrons ..2nd 10 electrons ... 3rd 15 electrons ..drop ... 4- 5 electrons.. 5 - 10 electrons .. and so on.
So you need a frequency to the pulse and different range of pulse.. The greater the difference in the number of electrons in one location compared to the second location, the higher the voltage.
Do you think this would rase your voltage?
Remember... your cell is a capacitator so add this to the equation.
Imagine this ... the first pulse 1 electron the 2nd 20... in that gap you would rase your voltage more then 100volts in one pulse.... (I thinK)
Another thing is this... And I'm quoting you ..
"Two things to remember..... make sure it is rated high enough to handle the same voltage level you would expect to see in the pulse peaks, and if it is a low leakage capacitor it will eventually charge itself to the highest potential occurring on the voltage pulses and no longer allow any voltage pontential left for the water cell. If this is the way you are going to use it you will have to provide a discharge path during relaxation time."
Now... the cell is a capacitator isn't it ?
Don't you think you have to look at it the same way?
That is why I think you need water flow in the cell. When you hit the ressonance of water you need water input in the same rate as hydrogen and oxigen output to keep it stable.
This is the way I imagine it to be ... PLEASE... if you've the knowelege and this is wrong say so...If you see it in a different way say so.. I'm learning not teaching ... Just trying to find the right answers to the questions... and solve the problems.. All that I said before is my point of view... please do share yours.
About my english
Be free to Correct me if I'm wrong...
I said that I'm doing my best because English is my 3rd language... and never took classes.
Music... books, internet and American girls are and have always been my classes lol :)
That was the only reason I said I was sorry about my English.
V User ID: 298429 5/14/2008 7:34 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Everyone interested in this project, particularly the Meyer's aspects needs to look at this PDF.
It's over 200 pages, but if you jump to the very end there's an actual list of component and some pictures of how to assemble the cell!?
I got so excited I rushed to post this and haven't full read it myself (don't hate on me, it IS over 200 pages and I started at the beginning initially)
I hope this proves as amazing a find as I *think* it is at the moment.
Everyone interested in this project, particularly the Meyer's aspects needs to look at this PDF.
It's over 200 pages, but if you jump to the very end there's an actual list of component and some pictures of how to assemble the cell!?
I got so excited I rushed to post this and haven't full read it myself (don't hate on me, it IS over 200 pages and I started at the beginning initially)
I hope this proves as amazing a find as I *think* it is at the moment.
WHen you first started testing did you get a brown scum on top of your test tank.
I'm thinking it has to be the glue.
Nothing else would dissolve that fast.
We need a good mechanical bond!
Might be looking into the coil design next, as I'm not to impressed with this one.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 52451
Excerpt from the PDF document I posted above:
"It should be noted that shiny new stainless steel is not suitable for use as an electrode in any form of
electrolysis. This can be seen in Joe Cell construction where the stainless steel cylinders need to be
conditioned through repeated short periods of electrolysis. The same applies to flat plate electrolysers,
where Bob Boyce points out that no serious volumes of gas will be produced until the stainless steel plates
have received a white coating, produced by leaving them to sit unused in the Potassium Hydroxide solution
for a few days. The same applies to this replication of Stan Meyer’s electrolysis unit. When the power is first
applied, very little electrolysis takes place as the active surfaces of the pipes get covered with bubbles which
stick to them. However, if they are left for a while with the bubbles in place, a brown scum forms on the
surface of the water. The scum is cleaned off and another short period of electrolysis carried out to cover
the plates with bubbles again. After this process has been carried out repeatedly, the brown scum no longer
forms and the active tube surfaces have a white coating. At this point, the ‘conditioned’ tubes produce the
kind of rapid electrolysis shown in the video."
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