I would like you to think with me for or a moment.. For what importance is there in distilled water? I do understand that with tap and other "waters" you will have a build up of "junk" IN your cell but just so you dont miss my point....
what happens when you put water under a vacuum?
what is the output? Does it matter what "waters" you use?
can the output be used????
these questions above will help you discover more than building a cell to strictly crack distilled water.
i hope this was helpful
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 445831
what happens when you put water under a vacuum?
It will boil and evaporate.
what is the output?
water vapor mixed with what ever other gases were dissolved in the water.
Does it matter what "waters" you use?
If solids were dissolved in the water then when the water has boiled away they will be left behind, but if the idea is to create water vapor then no it does not matter.
can the output be used????
If water vapor is the objective the the answer is obviously yes.
If you are attempting to say that water vapor is the intended output then I must disagree, If however you intend to imply something else then please elaborate.
In many ways I am a classical physics buff..... with an explorative attitude that says they can't know everything. I have personally seen unexplainable anamolous electrical behavior, so I'm perfectly willing to keep my mind completely open, but I'm not one for riddles..... SORRY. One Truth.... many realities
Lastone User ID: 445869 6/4/2008 7:11 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
I would like you to think with me for or a moment.. For what importance is there in distilled water? I do understand that with tap and other "waters" you will have a build up of "junk" IN your cell but just so you dont miss my point....
what happens when you put water under a vacuum?
what is the output? Does it matter what "waters" you use?
can the output be used????
these questions above will help you discover more than building a cell to strictly crack distilled water.
i hope this was helpful
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 445831
The problem with non distelled water is heavy metals, water conductivity and temperature. The problem is not the junk but the metals in the water.
"what happens when you put water under a vacuum?"
The water in vacuum automaticly becomes gas, not water vapor but gas.
This is why with some changes in the distribution you can run a diesel engine on water.
"what happens when you put water under a vacuum?"
No it doesn't. when Running a diesel engine on water it doesn't matter water you use because the "junk" will go out thrue the exaust system.
"can the output be used????"
Yes it can .... but you need more changes in the engine.
Exaust system, injection system, air intake system and distribution.
Why you ask ?? Because of the Air temperature in the combustion chamber. It as to be at leest 90ºC when going in.
You have to spray the water in to the combustion chamber (in vacuum)in high temeprature.
You need hydrogen to. Only water will not work because you need pure hydrogen to start the combustion reaction in a homogeneous way. You also need to use the air temperature, after combustion, to start the next combustion and the water can not be cold, so, you need to worm up the water before spraying, at lest 270ºC....(I think)
Not that easy .........
But you have to do it. Because you need to make a compression rate to make it explod. (combustion). Air atmospheres .. at leest 6 earth atmospheres.
And this is the reason for the Hydrogen cell.
You need to find a way to use a diferent fuell without changes in the engine. If you use a fuell that is dependent of deep engine changes, you can make it, maybe your friends etc.., , but you can not Give it to all the people.
The Oil companies will not allow the mass production of cars to run on water, and people will not do it, because they will not know how to do it.
We need to GIVE everyone a fuell that they can use just by taking or, if not that easy, with litle and easy changes.
I do think that even with litle changes you'll have big problems, because goverments will make does changes ilegal.
The best way is NO VISIBLE CHANGES. Just as if the car was on natural gas.
Was I wrong on this?
I'm asking you because I did reasearch about this and it is very possible. A person with engine knowledge and a litle help from an enginer can do it. But you still have to do big changes in the engine disttribution, fuell injection , exaust sistem and that will make it impossible to generalize the use of water, the price of it would be enormous.
This is why I'm researching hydrogen. A carborator car can run on hydrogen very, very easily.
A carborator car can also run on water you say, yes it can. But you will destroy it in no time if you don't use hydrogen to.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 389762 6/4/2008 10:58 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
I would like you to think with me for or a moment.. For what importance is there in distilled water? I do understand that with tap and other "waters" you will have a build up of "junk" IN your cell but just so you dont miss my point....
what happens when you put water under a vacuum?
what is the output? Does it matter what "waters" you use?
can the output be used????
these questions above will help you discover more than building a cell to strictly crack distilled water.
i hope this was helpful
The problem with non distelled water is heavy metals, water conductivity and temperature. The problem is not the junk but the metals in the water.
"what happens when you put water under a vacuum?"
The water in vacuum automaticly becomes gas, not water vapor but gas.
This is why with some changes in the distribution you can run a diesel engine on water.
"what happens when you put water under a vacuum?"
No it doesn't. when Running a diesel engine on water it doesn't matter water you use because the "junk" will go out thrue the exaust system.
"can the output be used????"
Yes it can .... but you need more changes in the engine.
Exaust system, injection system, air intake system and distribution.
Why you ask ?? Because of the Air temperature in the combustion chamber. It as to be at leest 90ºC when going in.
You have to spray the water in to the combustion chamber (in vacuum)in high temeprature.
You need hydrogen to. Only water will not work because you need pure hydrogen to start the combustion reaction in a homogeneous way. You also need to use the air temperature, after combustion, to start the next combustion and the water can not be cold, so, you need to worm up the water before spraying, at lest 270ºC....(I think)
Not that easy .........
But you have to do it. Because you need to make a compression rate to make it explod. (combustion). Air atmospheres .. at leest 6 earth atmospheres.
And this is the reason for the Hydrogen cell.
You need to find a way to use a diferent fuell without changes in the engine. If you use a fuell that is dependent of deep engine changes, you can make it, maybe your friends etc.., , but you can not Give it to all the people.
The Oil companies will not allow the mass production of cars to run on water, and people will not do it, because they will not know how to do it.
We need to GIVE everyone a fuell that they can use just by taking or, if not that easy, with litle and easy changes.
I do think that even with litle changes you'll have big problems, because goverments will make does changes ilegal.
The best way is NO VISIBLE CHANGES. Just as if the car was on natural gas.
Was I wrong on this?
I'm asking you because I did reasearch about this and it is very possible. A person with engine knowledge and a litle help from an enginer can do it. But you still have to do big changes in the engine disttribution, fuell injection , exaust sistem and that will make it impossible to generalize the use of water, the price of it would be enormous.
This is why I'm researching hydrogen. A carborator car can run on hydrogen very, very easily.
A carborator car can also run on water you say, yes it can. But you will destroy it in no time if you don't use hydrogen to.
You seem to be encountering the same problems as I had.
I tried various types off water in my attempt at building a Meyers cell, with tap water there was a high leakage current and only a couple of volts was developed across the cell, with purchased distilled water i got no higher than 300V.
I beleive that one of the secrets in the cell is the quality of distilled water. I think it has to be very well distilled to get Voltages in the range of 2KVolts.
When I am finished building my current cell I will go back to my Meyers cell tests. I have new ideas I want to test.
I am goint to distill my own water several times and see if i can obtain a very low leakage current.
If anyone knows of a good process to distill water I am interested.
Have pacience and good luck with your work.
All the best
cameldreamer User ID: 446015 6/5/2008 12:05 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
You seem to be encountering the same problems as I had.
I tried various types off water in my attempt at building a Meyers cell, with tap water there was a high leakage current and only a couple of volts was developed across the cell, with purchased distilled water i got no higher than 300V.
I beleive that one of the secrets in the cell is the quality of distilled water. I think it has to be very well distilled to get Voltages in the range of 2KVolts.
When I am finished building my current cell I will go back to my Meyers cell tests. I have new ideas I want to test.
I am goint to distill my own water several times and see if i can obtain a very low leakage current.
If anyone knows of a good process to distill water I am interested.
Have pacience and good luck with your work.
All the best
scimitar I Just wanna know User ID: 373365 6/5/2008 6:56 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
You seem to be encountering the same problems as I had.
I tried various types off water in my attempt at building a Meyers cell, with tap water there was a high leakage current and only a couple of volts was developed across the cell, with purchased distilled water i got no higher than 300V.
I beleive that one of the secrets in the cell is the quality of distilled water. I think it has to be very well distilled to get Voltages in the range of 2KVolts.
When I am finished building my current cell I will go back to my Meyers cell tests. I have new ideas I want to test.
I am goint to distill my own water several times and see if i can obtain a very low leakage current.
If anyone knows of a good process to distill water I am interested.
Have pacience and good luck with your work.
All the best
Quoting: cameldreamer 446015
Well...... There almost has to be something left out in the patent description. I am at the point I want to try a spark gap in series with the cell then up the VIC output voltage to a few KV. I will let you know what I find. One Truth.... many realities
scimitar I Just wanna know User ID: 373365 6/5/2008 7:28 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
You've pretty much lost me now. water vapor consists of water molecules with enough kinetic energy to go out of the liquid state and exist in gaseous form. Gas..... water vapor, same thing. If you are trying to say that a diesel engine can burn water vapor with no hydrocarbon content then I must disagree. If you are refering to the process of vapor electrolysis just prior to injection into the combustion chamber then okay, but I did't get that from what you wrote. I realize that English is not your native language, so perhaps something was lost in the translation.
Thanks for your continued interest. One Truth.... many realities
Anonymous Coward User ID: 421163 6/5/2008 9:12 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
You seem to be encountering the same problems as I had.
I tried various types off water in my attempt at building a Meyers cell, with tap water there was a high leakage current and only a couple of volts was developed across the cell, with purchased distilled water i got no higher than 300V.
I believe that one of the secrets in the cell is the quality of distilled water. I think it has to be very well distilled to get Voltages in the range of 2KVolts.
When I am finished building my current cell I will go back to my Meyers cell tests. I have new ideas I want to test.
I am going to distill my own water several times and see if i can obtain a very low leakage current.
If anyone knows of a good process to distill water I am interested.
Have patience and good luck with your work.
All the best
Quoting: cameldreamer 446015
Don't forget that your plates also need to be very clean. You might need to go through a bunch of cycles just to clean impurities out of the metal matrix.
I am intrigued by Scimitar's proposal to place a spark gap in series with the water cell. That really seems like a worth while test.
.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 352739 (OP) 6/5/2008 11:18 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Reporter on here debunking hydrogen/electrolisys She even sayd people on youtube doing this and it doesnt work as well..No the problem is alot of people dont have the KNOW HOW so they are debunking it ORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR was that a suttle way for the reporter to advertise to her audience to research it and where??? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
My opinion the first device would PISS ME OFF lol!
scimitar I Just wanna know User ID: 373365 6/5/2008 1:41 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
I think I found a key...... couldn't get the VIC to do didley squat the low impedance of the cell would effectively load down the voltage. I tried varying the frequency to find a cell resonance to no avail.
So then I said okay let's take a step back......so I wound a cell electrode on a piece of PVC using a bifilar arrangement. I taped alligator grommet vertically in four places around the tube to use as a guide to wrap the SS wire around. The coil is about 4 inches long with about a .1" separation between electrode wires. Next I hooked it up to 24 volts DC..... no added electrolyte just tap water. About 1.6 amp current draw with a reasonable amount of gas production.
I tried the VIC again with basically no result..... It would create just a few volts across the cell with no bubbles.
Then I thought I should see if there truely was a resonance to the water cell..... So I hooked up my function generator set it to sine wave and connected it directly to the cell...... It only goes to 11MHZ and I swept the entire range, no resonance. Then I decided to try a pulse generator that I have that will do about 40Mhz. At first nothing then I noticed the signal level increasing as I approached 30Mhz....... It peaked at about 29Mhz, now this is a 50 Ohm output signal genrator with no more that about 10 volts peak with no load. When I saw it hit the peak across the cell (about 10Volts Pk-Pk) I turned and looked at the cell..... guess what, That's right bubbles! Now maybe it wasn't a lot, but enough to cloud the water and that's with maybe 50mw of power.
That's my update I'm outta here for a while. I think it's CB radio time as in transmitter output feeding the cell.
Yall take care now ya hear One Truth.... many realities
scimitar I Just wanna know User ID: 20949 6/5/2008 3:37 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Well now I suppose I have to build a VCO to cover the range of resonance and a power amp to drive the cell.
I can't believe it, I had 4 CB radios two weeks ago, they were all in a state of disrepair and I thought I needed to clean out my lab so I got rid of them........I'm never getting rid of any electronic related item again.
At least I now understand....... The resonance of my water cell is close to 30 Mhz, it will be interesting to see if that is an attribute of the water or the structure of the electrodes.
Now I'm excited again, the impedance of the cell actually does go way up when you hit its resonant frequency.
Onward and upward. One Truth.... many realities
Lastone User ID: 446529 6/5/2008 6:12 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
You've pretty much lost me now. water vapor consists of water molecules with enough kinetic energy to go out of the liquid state and exist in gaseous form. Gas..... water vapor, same thing. If you are trying to say that a diesel engine can burn water vapor with no hydrocarbon content then I must disagree. If you are refering to the process of vapor electrolysis just prior to injection into the combustion chamber then okay, but I did't get that from what you wrote. I realize that English is not your native language, so perhaps something was lost in the translation.
Thanks for your continued interest.
Quoting: scimitar
Yes water vapor - Gas
You've to understand water vapor as gas.
I think this can help you guys to understand it.
"I realize that English is not your native language, so perhaps something was lost in the translation."
Yes. I'm from Portugal, it as been a very long time since the last time I wrote in english. Doing my best ... I do hope you can understand me.
cameldreamer User ID: 446015 6/5/2008 7:25 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Wow!!Scimitar, thats a very important find you just made, explains why I had no success with mine.
Whats the spacing in your cell? mine is 2mm. If at resonance we have a lower current then Meyers theories could work after all.
Thanks for the info.
Lastone User ID: 446529 6/5/2008 7:33 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Wow!!Scimitar, thats a very important find you just made, explains why I had no success with mine.
Whats the spacing in your cell? mine is 2mm. If at resonance we have a lower current then Meyers theories could work after all.
Thanks for the info.
Here are pictures of the coils. Remember there are two interleaved coils on this form for both electrodes. Also remember it was a quick and dirty test coil just to have something to play with.
Tomorrow I will go to the local surplus electronics store and look for an RF generator. Else I will have to build my own...... really don't want to do that at this time. One Truth.... many realities
Anonymous Coward User ID: 389762 6/5/2008 10:58 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Here are pictures of the coils. Remember there are two interleaved coils on this form for both electrodes. Also remember it was a quick and dirty test coil just to have something to play with.
Tomorrow I will go to the local surplus electronics store and look for an RF generator. Else I will have to build my own...... really don't want to do that at this time.
Quoting: scimitar
Good work there sci.. For testing purposes I do applaud your workmanship and design.
scimitar I Just wanna know User ID: 373365 6/6/2008 7:23 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Thanks for the vids..... I've seen most of those, except for the Bearden ones. I've read quite a bit of his stuff and never gotten too much out of it, but in the videos he was actually explaining things a lot better than I had seen him do before.
What I had discovered yesterday relates to what John Kanzius found, with using RF frequencies to split water. He found it accidentally.
Hopefully I can find an RF generator today. One Truth.... many realities
scimitar I Just wanna know User ID: 373365 6/6/2008 7:31 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Now you take this output... The VIC DOES NOT go in the water. Pretend you are building a neon. Proper shielding is necessary as well. Work safely.
The purpose is to transform the H2 and create ozone.
Good luck
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 389762
I think what is happening here is that when he pulls the vacuum on the cell the gas bubbles immediately expand as they are created filling the area between the electrodes and creating an insulative barrier that reduces the current flow. One Truth.... many realities
scimitar I Just wanna know User ID: 373365 6/6/2008 5:57 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Well, no luck finding an RF signal generator....... So I'll have build one myself. I might try to build a power oscillator using the cell as the tank curcuit.
Will also build different length cell coils to see what the main component of resonance is..... The water or the coil with the water acting as a capacitor. I'm sure it's a little of both, but I need to prove it to myself. Nothing is ever easy.
Every time I mention anything about the concept and or possibility of over-unity devices.... the first words out of their mouths are...." Wow let me in on it so we can both be rich".......They just don't understand.
BE BUDA BEEP One Truth.... many realities
Lastone User ID: 447153 6/6/2008 6:14 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
I don't know if this can help you .. but I think you have to split the coil. We need to tune the coil.
You can only do that by splitting the electrical charge going in to the coil and shunt the wire in diferent places till you tune it, like in a tesla coil.
I'm going to try it this way but using water or oil as an isolator to prevent short circuit the coil.
scimitar I Just wanna know User ID: 373365 6/6/2008 8:12 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
I don't know if this can help you .. but I think you have to split the coil. We need to tune the coil.
You can only do that by splitting the electrical charge going in to the coil and shunt the wire in diferent places till you tune it, like in a tesla coil.
I'm going to try it this way but using water or oil as an isolator to prevent short circuit the coil.
Quoting: Lastone 447153
I'm not sure if you read one of my earlier posts where I explained what I discovered. I drove the water cell directly with a pulse generator......I show pictures of the cell winding...... I discovered that while immersed in water the coil actually attained a resonant point at approximately 29Mhz, at exactly the point of resonance it began to bubble. Now this pulse generator has a 50 Ohm output impedance with 10 volt peak unloaded maximum amplitude. when I hit the resonant point the voltage across the cell went to 10 volts peak. Before the resonant point it was about 2 volts peak. That means that very little current was actually flowing from the generator, basically only voltage was producing the gas. So it seems to be doing exactly what Meyers said it would....... just at a different frequency.
I still must do some experimentation before I understand exactly what is going on...... One Truth.... many realities
Anonymous Coward User ID: 447201 6/6/2008 8:17 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
that's just the thing...there are two competing ways of doing it...meyers used extremely high voltages and milliamps to break down h2o or you can use brute force at low voltage, high current/amperage, because anything over 1.5 to 2 volts is wasted as heat..only takes that to break the valence bond.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 337786 6/6/2008 8:18 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
that's just the thing...there are two competing ways of doing it...meyers used extremely high voltages and milliamps to break down h2o or you can use brute force at low voltage, high current/amperage, because anything over 1.5 to 2 volts is wasted as heat..only takes that to break the valence bond.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 447201
In standard electrolysis the amount of gas production is a linear function based on current..... The more current the more gas, of coarse then current through the cell will be based on the voltage applied and the conductivity of the water. This places a limit on how much a given size cell can produce before the water will boil from the heat produced.
If the Meyers process is in reality a truth and production can be acommplished by pure potential alone then the process would be easily scalable to any reasonable size.
Well I won't get much done today..... Today is my grand daughters first birthday........ hard to believe. One Truth.... many realities
Anonymous Coward User ID: 293943 6/7/2008 11:10 AM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Well, no luck finding an RF signal generator....... So I'll have build one myself. I might try to build a power oscillator using the cell as the tank circuit.
Will also build different length cell coils to see what the main component of resonance is..... The water or the coil with the water acting as a capacitor. I'm sure it's a little of both, but I need to prove it to myself. Nothing is ever easy.
Every time I mention anything about the concept and or possibility of over-unity devices.... the first words out of their mouths are...." Wow let me in on it so we can both be rich".......They just don't understand.
BE BUDA BEEP
Quoting: scimitar
Congratulations again. I have tried to point out the methods of scientific discovery require holding all variables steady except one and making multiple tests around that one variable.
Then fixing that variable and testing another variable.
NOTHING IS EVER SIMPLE IS A GROSS UNDERSTATEMENT.
Everybody in the shade tree mechanic world wants to put together a unit, slap it in their car, and get 50mpg +.
They should be sticking to basic "booster" units which will work and gain 10% to perhaps 20%.
These Meyers units are beyond the engineering abilities of nearly all untrained people.
You have obviously grasped the fundamental principle of what appears to be either a field effect or a resonance effect and may stumble right into a good configuration, AND I HOPE YOU DO, but you might still be running experiments two or three years from now.
The best case scenario is that a fairly simple to build high voltage resonator unit is developed that gives substantial mileage gains, and the profits serve to fund the in-depth long term experimentation that will be necessary.
GOD SPEED AND GOOD WILL SIR!
scimitar I Just wanna know User ID: 373365 6/7/2008 4:02 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
Congratulations again. I have tried to point out the methods of scientific discovery require holding all variables steady except one and making multiple tests around that one variable.
Then fixing that variable and testing another variable.
NOTHING IS EVER SIMPLE IS A GROSS UNDERSTATEMENT.
Everybody in the shade tree mechanic world wants to put together a unit, slap it in their car, and get 50mpg +.
They should be sticking to basic "booster" units which will work and gain 10% to perhaps 20%.
These Meyers units are beyond the engineering abilities of nearly all untrained people.
You have obviously grasped the fundamental principle of what appears to be either a field effect or a resonance effect and may stumble right into a good configuration, AND I HOPE YOU DO, but you might still be running experiments two or three years from now.
The best case scenario is that a fairly simple to build high voltage resonator unit is developed that gives substantial mileage gains, and the profits serve to fund the in-depth long term experimentation that will be necessary.
GOD SPEED AND GOOD WILL SIR!
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 293943
You are quite correct.
The effort is easily complicated by the fact that I cannot put together a full time effort, nor can most. My desire is to basically spread the discoveries I make, however significant or insignificant they may be. I have through a colleague at work discovered another individual who is also working on the Meyers principle. Hopefully this individual would consider sharing what he has learned as well.
I will be experimenting the rest of the day so I will write more later.
Thanks for the encouragement.
Till later One Truth.... many realities
Anonymous Coward User ID: 375069 6/7/2008 4:09 PM
Re: Alternative Fuels-Using WATER to convert engine to a hybrid DIY!!
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