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Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit
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Charlie Horse
User ID: 731
5/6/2008 10:44 PM
Report abusive post | Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit
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Tokenism
This is a well-known stunt. A company that does not wish to be accused of racism or sexism hires one Token Negro, or one token woman, and prominently displays the token right out front. Some firms hire a black woman for the receptionist, thus killing two birds with one stone.
Bill Wilson published Doctor Silkworth's letter in the Big Book, and used it to imply that the medical establishment strongly approved of Bill's wonderful new plan to cure all of the alcoholics with cult religion. Dr. Silkworth was A.A.'s token doctor. Then Bill added an appendix to the second edition, "The Medical View on A.A.", which listed five more doctors who said something nice about Alcoholics Anonymous.
Bill Wilson didn't bother to mention the fact that the American Medical Association reviewed the book Alcoholics Anonymous when it was first published, and they found it to be a bunch of useless old garbage with no merit. That was the real "Medical View" on Alcoholics Anonymous.
On October 14, 1939, the Journal of the American Medical Association published the following review of "Alcoholics Anonymous: How More Than One Hundred Men Have Recovered from Alcoholism":
The seriousness of the psychiatric and social problem
represented by addiction to alcohol is generally underestimated by those not intimately familiar with the tragedies in the families of victims or the resistance addicts offer to any effective treatment. Many psychiatrists regard addiction to alcohol as having a more pessimistic prognosis than schizophrenia.
For many years the public was beguiled into believing that short courses of enforced abstinence and catharsis in "institutes" and "rest homes" would do the trick, and now that the failure of such temporizing has become common knowledge, a considerable number of other forms of quack treatment have sprung up.
The book under review is a curious combination of organizing propaganda and religious exhortation. It is in no sense a scientific book, although it is introduced by a letter from a physician who claims to know some of the anonymous contributors who have been "cured" of addiction to alcohol and have joined together in an organization which would save other addicts by a kind of religious conversion.
The book contains instructions as to how to intrigue the alcoholic addict into the acceptance of divine guidance in place of alcohol in terms strongly reminiscent of Dale Carnegie and the adherents of the Buchman ("Oxford") movement. The one valid thing in the book is the recognition of the seriousness of addiction to alcohol. Other than this, the book has no scientific merit or interest.
The doctors at the American Medical Association immediately saw that Bill Wilson's "new spiritual program" was just a clone of Frank Buchman's cult religion.
Bill never mentioned any of that. He just said,
This work has claimed the attention of prominent doctors and institutions who say without hesitation that in a few years time, as it gains impetous, thousands of hitherto incurable cases may recover. Such people as the chief physician of Charles B. Towns Hospital and psychiatrists of the Johns Hopkins Hospital at Baltimore express such opinions.
The One Hundred Men Corporation Prospectus, December 1938, page 4.
Note that "the chief physician of Charles B. Towns Hospital" was none other than Dr. William D. Silkworth, the doctor who gave Bill Wilson the quack medicine "belladona cure" while Bill was detoxing from alcohol. So basically, Bill's grandiose claim of many endorsements from the medical community really boils down to just one from his own doctor and a couple from psychiatrists at Johns Hopkins. (Then Bill got a few more for the appendix added onto the second edition of the Big Book -- including an endorsement from Dr. Harry Tiebout, Bill's psychiatrist, who also said that Bill Wilson was immature, narcissistic, and grandiose.)
And, speaking of tokens, Rev. Sam Shoemaker was Bill's token Protestant minister, and Father Edward Dowling, S.J., was Bill's token Catholic priest. Bill used both of them to try to imply that the theology of A.A. was not bizarre and heretical.
cited verbatim Orange Papers.
The Sacred Cow makes the Best Hamburger. -Mark Twain |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 426757
5/6/2008 10:48 PM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
Charlie Horse,
Are you an alcoholic? |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 412873
5/6/2008 10:52 PM | |
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 395885
5/6/2008 10:56 PM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
aa is an alchemical exercise if you work the steps |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 193848
5/6/2008 10:57 PM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
I'll drink to that. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 324688
5/6/2008 11:15 PM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
Well pal you can not argue with success as they say. Have known dozens of alcoholics over the decades who have gotten their lives back, familes and even friends by following that program. That is the #1 DRUG in the world and yes it is a drug, they use to put people to sleep with it in its more potent forms. Plus it is used in the chemical process of manufacturing every type of drug there is, both legal and illegal. Thats aknown fact.
So, if you or anyone you know or love gets hooked on that stuff remember it is a disease that needs to be addressed since it is progressive. Person can stop drinking at age 25 and not drink for ten years, but if they go back to alcohol at age 35 they will be just as bad, usually worst than they were at 25, thats some scary statistics since ones health will crash much faster. So if A.A. works for people to save their lives there must be something to it.
Alcoholism is like cancer of the soul and I've known some damn good people who found that out too late in their battle against it. For some it is evil, why do you think they call it SPIRITS! |
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egglet
User ID: 469488
7/16/2008 11:38 PM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
couldn't get the program to work YOUR way, eh? sucks for you. Hope you get it in the future. Makes life much easier. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 469421
7/16/2008 11:44 PM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
Well pal you can not argue with success as they say. Have known dozens of alcoholics over the decades who have gotten their lives back, familes and even friends by following that program. That is the #1 DRUG in the world and yes it is a drug, they use to put people to sleep with it in its more potent forms. evil, why do you think they call it SPIRITS! Quoting: Anonymous Coward 324688
As an insomniac, please tell me how... |
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egglet
User ID: 469488
7/16/2008 11:44 PM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
I feel sorry for you C.H. You also shouldn't comment on things you don't know: especially on topics that could negatively influence others. Alcoholism is a cunning, baffling powerful disease that tells those afflicted they don't have a disease. Go ahead and feed into people's denial that AA doesn't work. Help them do themselves in. Maybe some people find other means to get clean and sober (my partner did), but far and away 12-step is the most successful overall. I'm in the medical profession and also part of the program and know at least 5 other local docs in the program. We were also taught its efficacy in medical school. Again, sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. Good luck to you. Sounds like you need it. Oh yeah, get over your resentments, too. |
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Omega
User ID: 423762
7/16/2008 11:46 PM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
AA success rate is between 1 in 17 to 1 in 21 to make it long term depending on whose statistics you believe.
Hardly a success.
I have nothing against group therapy and realize the benefits of sharing in a group setting.
I have a big problem with their bullshit cult mentality and sheeple way of thinking.
Handguns are a skill; shotguns an art; rifles a science.
_____________________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner.
Disarmament is the precursor to Genocide.
Better to take action now rather than chances later. Your choice. |
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egglet
User ID: 469488
7/16/2008 11:47 PM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
Omega, are you in recovery? |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 434311
7/16/2008 11:50 PM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
it's alchemy
it works |
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egglet
User ID: 469488
7/16/2008 11:51 PM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
oh yeah, and it's not a commodity or even like a medicine you passively take and it just "works". You have to develop faith in a power greater than yourself, rid yourself of guilt and resentment and help others.
Here's some stats for you, Omega. See abstract below. 85% retention rate with sponsor and 88% with homegroup. Not too shabby.
Where are your stats from?
Psychiatr Clin North Am. 1993 Mar;16(1):177-87
Long-term recovery from alcoholism.Chappel JN.
Department of Psychiatry, School of Medicine, University of Nevada.
AA has demonstrated success in steadily increasing membership, with no loss of the proportion of those with over 5 years of sobriety. It has been recognized as effective long-term treatment for alcoholism by psychiatrists and psychoanalysts experienced in treatment of the addictions. The triennial membership surveys of AA have shown stability in 1. A 50% dropout rate within the first 3 months of starting AA. Only 41% of those in the first year will remain in the Fellowship for another year. 2. Roughly equal numbers of those with less than 1 year, 1 to 5 years, and over 5 years of sobriety, with an average length of sobriety of about 4 years. 3. Members having a sponsor (85%) and belonging to a home group (88%). 4. Attendance by members of about three meetings a week, regardless of duration of sobriety. 5. Members telling their doctor that they are in AA, but not helping him or her learn about the program. The survey data also indicate that AA is changing in the following ways: 1. The number of women members has increased to more than one third the total membership. 2. An increasing number of young people, under 30 years of age, to more than one fifth the total. 3. A decreasing number of older people, over 50 years of age, to just under one fourth the total. 4. An increasing number of members who were also addicted to other drugs (46%). Psychiatrists can use these data and knowledge of AA to 1. Increase the effectiveness of referrals of alcoholic patients to AA regardless of age, sex, race, or other characteristics. All are welcome and can benefit. 2. Deal with resistance, which occurs when patients begin to make contact with AA. 3. Help alcoholic patients through the difficult first year of sobriety. 4. Encourage their alcoholic patients to use AA as a program for personal growth and development. 5. Helping dually addicted patients use AA's singleness of purpose to facilitate their recovery. 6. Cooperate with alcohol and drug treatment programs in helping patients transfer to AA and work on an effective program of recovery. 7. Work with members of the local AA Treatment Facilities and Cooperation with the Professional Community Committees in helping alcoholic patients enter and use AA. 8. Provide psychiatric treatment for AA members in ways that support and sustain their program of recovery, especially by avoiding dependence-producing medications.
PMID: 8456043 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 469421
7/16/2008 11:51 PM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
AA success rate is between 1 in 17 to 1 in 21 to make it long term depending on whose statistics you believe.
Hardly a success.
I have nothing against group therapy and realize the benefits of sharing in a group setting.
I have a big problem with their bullshit cult mentality and sheeple way of thinking. Quoting: Omega
So....what are your thoughts on Dianetics? |
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Omega
User ID: 423762
7/16/2008 11:53 PM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
Omega, are you in recovery? Quoting: egglet 469488
Depends on your definition of recovery,lol....
I do not frequent AA
I am abstinate from alcohol.
Handguns are a skill; shotguns an art; rifles a science.
_____________________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner.
Disarmament is the precursor to Genocide.
Better to take action now rather than chances later. Your choice. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 469421
7/16/2008 11:54 PM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
Omega, are you in recovery? Quoting: egglet 469488
typical catch phrase.....yes or no?
Are you still beating your wife? |
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Omega
User ID: 423762
7/16/2008 11:54 PM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
AA success rate is between 1 in 17 to 1 in 21 to make it long term depending on whose statistics you believe.
Hardly a success.
I have nothing against group therapy and realize the benefits of sharing in a group setting.
I have a big problem with their bullshit cult mentality and sheeple way of thinking.
So....what are your thoughts on Dianetics?
Dianetics sucks monkey balls.
Handguns are a skill; shotguns an art; rifles a science.
_____________________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner.
Disarmament is the precursor to Genocide.
Better to take action now rather than chances later. Your choice. |
|
egglet
User ID: 469488
7/16/2008 11:55 PM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
alchemy or not. it works. My hypothesis is that it helps people combat social anxiety: a trait I've noticed in many alcoholics. It also makes people accountable for their actions (i.e., through a sponsor). It also, albeit for some it is a longer process, helps people with depression because connecting to a fellowship combats the tendency to isolate. Just my 2 cents. Maybe it doesn't work for everyone and no one is "cured", but it sure as hell works for a great number of folks.
If you're so down on AA, why don't you mention a better alternative that has worked for you or others? If it's a 28 day wonder program with little to no follow-up, more power to you. You're quite lucky. |
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egglet
User ID: 469488
7/16/2008 11:55 PM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
alchemy or not. it works. My hypothesis is that it helps people combat social anxiety: a trait I've noticed in many alcoholics. It also makes people accountable for their actions (i.e., through a sponsor). It also, albeit for some it is a longer process, helps people with depression because connecting to a fellowship combats the tendency to isolate. Just my 2 cents. Maybe it doesn't work for everyone and no one is "cured", but it sure as hell works for a great number of folks.
If you're so down on AA, why don't you mention a better alternative that has worked for you or others? If it's a 28 day wonder program with little to no follow-up, more power to you. You're quite lucky. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 469484
7/16/2008 11:56 PM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
First thing they have everyone do is sit in a circle holding hands and deny Jesus Christ and that any old power will do.
There's very few ways to quit an addiction. I found God and quit almost overnight after years of AA and nothing. Others have quit for other reasons. |
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Omega
User ID: 423762
7/16/2008 11:58 PM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
oh yeah, and it's not a commodity or even like a medicine you passively take and it just "works". You have to develop faith in a power greater than yourself, rid yourself of guilt and resentment and help others.
Here's some stats for you, Omega. See abstract below. 85% retention rate with sponsor and 88% with homegroup. Not too shabby.
Where are your stats from?
Psychiatr Clin North Am. 1993 Mar;16(1):177-87
Long-term recovery from alcoholism.Chappel JN.
Department of Psychiatry, School of Medicine, University of Nevada.
AA has demonstrated success in steadily increasing membership, with no loss of the proportion of those with over 5 years of sobriety. It has been recognized as effective long-term treatment for alcoholism by psychiatrists and psychoanalysts experienced in treatment of the addictions. The triennial membership surveys of AA have shown stability in 1. A 50% dropout rate within the first 3 months of starting AA. Only 41% of those in the first year will remain in the Fellowship for another year. 2. Roughly equal numbers of those with less than 1 year, 1 to 5 years, and over 5 years of sobriety, with an average length of sobriety of about 4 years. 3. Members having a sponsor (85%) and belonging to a home group (88%). 4. Attendance by members of about three meetings a week, regardless of duration of sobriety. 5. Members telling their doctor that they are in AA, but not helping him or her learn about the program. The survey data also indicate that AA is changing in the following ways: 1. The number of women members has increased to more than one third the total membership. 2. An increasing number of young people, under 30 years of age, to more than one fifth the total. 3. A decreasing number of older people, over 50 years of age, to just under one fourth the total. 4. An increasing number of members who were also addicted to other drugs (46%). Psychiatrists can use these data and knowledge of AA to 1. Increase the effectiveness of referrals of alcoholic patients to AA regardless of age, sex, race, or other characteristics. All are welcome and can benefit. 2. Deal with resistance, which occurs when patients begin to make contact with AA. 3. Help alcoholic patients through the difficult first year of sobriety. 4. Encourage their alcoholic patients to use AA as a program for personal growth and development. 5. Helping dually addicted patients use AA's singleness of purpose to facilitate their recovery. 6. Cooperate with alcohol and drug treatment programs in helping patients transfer to AA and work on an effective program of recovery. 7. Work with members of the local AA Treatment Facilities and Cooperation with the Professional Community Committees in helping alcoholic patients enter and use AA. 8. Provide psychiatric treatment for AA members in ways that support and sustain their program of recovery, especially by avoiding dependence-producing medications.
PMID: 8456043 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Quoting: egglet 469488
Bwhahahahaahahah. Can you READ?????
From your link.
A 50% dropout rate within the first 3 months of starting AA. Only 41% of those in the first year will remain in the Fellowship for another year. 2. Roughly equal numbers of those with less than 1 year, 1 to 5 years, and over 5 years of sobriety, with an average length of sobriety of about 4 years.<<<<<<
I ain't gonna do your research for you. The info is out there.
But then again,your programming shows.
As well as a lack of being in a teachable state of mind.
Handguns are a skill; shotguns an art; rifles a science.
_____________________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner.
Disarmament is the precursor to Genocide.
Better to take action now rather than chances later. Your choice. |
|
Omega
User ID: 423762
7/17/2008 12:00 AM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
If you're so down on AA, why don't you mention a better alternative that has worked for you or others? If it's a 28 day wonder program with little to no follow-up, more power to you. You're quite lucky.<<<<
Sure, I have developed the Omega school of pot smoking. Wake and bake and tend the garden. Works wonders.
Free your mind.
Handguns are a skill; shotguns an art; rifles a science.
_____________________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner.
Disarmament is the precursor to Genocide.
Better to take action now rather than chances later. Your choice. |
|
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 469421
7/17/2008 12:02 AM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
alchemy or not. it works. My hypothesis is that it helps people combat social anxiety: a Quoting: egglet 469488
Instead of booze or pills, I'm having some success using magnesium, GABO (?) I think it's called, along with a fist full of melatonin on certain nights...
My problem is that I see everything I've worked for evaporating....that bothers me during the day, and makes me angry so that I can't sleep well, or at all.. |
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egglet
User ID: 469488
7/17/2008 12:03 AM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
I have no opinion on Dianetics. Not familiar with it.
In any event, A.C., finding God is a perfectly great way of becoming abstinent from alcohol. The Oxford Group which greatly influenced Bill W was all about that.
Not sure what meetings you went to. Many people I know do have Jesus as their Higher Power. God as we understand Him opens the door to more people to have the change to recover.
Look, I don't think for a second that there is only one way to do anything, including religion. I'm glad you believe in Jesus. That, too, is not for everyone.
AA is working for me and for many others and I just think that many of the comments on this thread overgeneralize.
Just because you had bad experiences doesn't make it a bad program: just not right for you. |
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egglet
User ID: 469488
7/17/2008 12:03 AM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
I have no opinion on Dianetics. Not familiar with it.
In any event, A.C., finding God is a perfectly great way of becoming abstinent from alcohol. The Oxford Group which greatly influenced Bill W was all about that.
Not sure what meetings you went to. Many people I know do have Jesus as their Higher Power. God as we understand Him opens the door to more people to have the change to recover.
Look, I don't think for a second that there is only one way to do anything, including religion. I'm glad you believe in Jesus. That, too, is not for everyone.
AA is working for me and for many others and I just think that many of the comments on this thread overgeneralize.
Just because you had bad experiences doesn't make it a bad program: just not right for you. |
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fob
User ID: 434311
7/17/2008 12:03 AM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
the alchemy is in working the steps
the bs at meetings can interfere with that part of the process imho
the steps enable you to reconcile with your past, and you are free to enjoy your life in the moment
that much is crucial
guilt and regret are poison
and blame will get you no where fast
and i drank years ago after 13 years of sobriety.. it took me about two weeks to get REAL FUCKED UP and months to feel halfway human again
all drunks are one drink from drunk all the time
that's the truth |
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egglet
User ID: 469488
7/17/2008 12:10 AM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
Omega, if you READ the abstract more carefully AND what I wrote, it basically says it works for people who put EFFORT into it (85% with sponsor; 88% with home group). The success rates are lower for those who do not COMMIT and WORK at it. However, it does not mean it's a failure. Think about the average number of times it takes people to quit smoking cigarettes (7+ from I've learned in MEDICAL SCHOOL where I've been quite teachable actually).
In any event, AA is not like a magic pill or a bowl you smoke...you don't just go and passively sit and attain recovery. It requires work: something I know many potheads are averse to it. |
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egglet
User ID: 469488
7/17/2008 12:15 AM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
Anyway, nice to see your post, fob. Try to set them straight. They find solace in stonerdom and Melatonin and magnesium.
I have to go to bed because I have to wake up early and go to my JOB tomorrow. I won't be back. Ciao.
Remember "recovery is not for those who need it. It's for those who want it." Best of luck, fellow humans. Be well. |
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Anonymous Coward
User ID: 469421
7/17/2008 12:16 AM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
I think you ex-drunks mean well....
You guys have turned your sobriety into a religion unto itself...
No offense, but you come across as weak. |
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malu 
User ID: 421073
7/17/2008 12:19 AM
 | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
Omega, if you READ the abstract more carefully AND what I wrote, it basically says it works for people who put EFFORT into it (85% with sponsor; 88% with home group). The success rates are lower for those who do not COMMIT and WORK at it. However, it does not mean it's a failure. Think about the average number of times it takes people to quit smoking cigarettes (7+ from I've learned in MEDICAL SCHOOL where I've been quite teachable actually).
In any event, AA is not like a magic pill or a bowl you smoke...you don't just go and passively sit and attain recovery. It requires work: something I know many potheads are averse to it. Quoting: egglet 469488
i have to agree with you, in that it works if you work it, but smoking pot makes me hyper so i had to do something with all my energy, so not all potheads are lazy
statistics are a game all their own, the odds of an alcoholic recovering and making something of their lives is slim to none, but i personally know several dozen people including myself that have
is it for everyone?, nope, nothing is
part of it depends on how fucked up you let your life get before change actually looks good
personally i enjoy the program, i take from it what i need, never had a sponsor, never really worked the steps, but i have been clean a year and a half now, and trust me, that is a miracle lol
When peaceful revolution becomes impossible, violent revolution becomes inevitable.
"Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking." |
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13 Steps
User ID: 437387
7/17/2008 12:21 AM | | Re: Alcoholics Anonymous has no Scientific Merit | Quote |
Red whine had scientific merit. The right amount of whine: One is too many and a thousand not enough.
Why don't those losers get with the Pimpin Chomolugma with firewater Ralph Klein date rape charity cocktail program? |
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