| | | Page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 | Survival Guns discussed
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
 Australia
8/1/2008 10:39 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
The Bolester Molina is almost identical to the 1911 and mine was around $200-wish I could have gotten it for $45-word is they're more accurate than the 1911-yeah it's a c&r gun-save $ where you can-puts the same hole in you! Quoting: DB 432031
quote
The pistols served well, despite the region's extremely harsh climactic conditions.
After World War II, Ballester-Molina issue continued in Argentina. Production finally stopped in 1953. Exact figures have not been published, but the manufacturing run certainly ran into the tens of thousands.
end quote
Nothing wrong with having a golden oldie, all you need to do is ensure the bullet goes where you aim.
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
Australia
8/1/2008 10:45 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
I disagree with those of you knocking the sks for accuracy. I can reliably shoot an onion or potato at 100 yds with mine. Yeah I could do the same with an M16. Most combat is up close and personal. Quoting: DB 432031
Several wars and skirmishes all across the world show that "combat" is not "most" of anything, common sense shows the closer the enemy the greater the risk to your health.
If indeed most combat was up close rifle sights would never be calibrated beyond 200 yards.
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
Australia
8/1/2008 11:09 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
I disagree with those of you knocking the sks for accuracy. I can reliably shoot an onion or potato at 100 yds with mine. Quoting: DB 432031
I have had a number of rifles that would put 5 shots inside 1/2" at 200 yards.
Accuracy is hitting your target at the range required, the SKS has value because it is cheap and reliable, thousands were imported in Aussie for pest destruction of feral pigs, the ammunition was altered by a simple device that sliced about 1/8 of an inch from the tip of the bullet, the flat point ensured the pigs stayed down.
If your on a budget you buy what you can afford, next time you go shooting put that onion out at 200 yards and see how your SKS (and you) can do.
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Underground_Dude
User ID: 477262
 Italy
8/1/2008 12:29 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
I just love this thread! I think it should have been called Romancing War!
Everyone is so opinionated I have not felt like entering into the subject of a survival rifle in earnest.
It seems that the consensus is it's really a battle rifle am I correct?
It seems that the consensus is if your trying to survive your not going to be hunting for food is this correct?
It seems that most of the people on here believe it will be a long drawn out war where you're hiding and fighting?
It also seems that very few have had actual battle field experience is that correct? I'm not talking being in the military I'm talking being shot at in a foreign land.
In the discussion of a survival rifle one need to define what you mean by survival and from what.
Is it from the roving hoards of gangbangers out to steal your food and rape your wife? MMMM I don't see it, call me sheeple or blind but I don't think it will play out that way. OK something happens where that does occur would you stay there?
So it comes down to being in a rural area and having to stay alive and occasionally having to defend yourself. Generally that would mean range not close quarters fighting, you know the ground and you would know who and how many are in your area. Are you wanting to stand toe to toe. Not me! You take care of business at the longest range you can accurately handle. This does a couple of things it conceals your location and it reduces the chances you will be damaged.
To me that calls for what you want to call a sniper rig, I call it a large caliber accurate hunting rifle. Nothing fancy just something you know and can hit what you aim at.
People comment that you want to wound a soldier because it actually takes three out of combat. That's only when you're talking Europeans no one else has been doing that since VN! You didn't see VC do that, you didn't see that in Bosnia, you don't see that in Iraq. That notion was used to sell smaller calibers but in reality it doesn't play that well.
Besides in the survival scenario out lined do you see gangbangers running through aimed fire to save each other?
Remember also even if and that's a big IF you got caught in a hostile territory at close range and there's no reason you can't control that to around 100yrds a few well aimed shots will do two things disperse a mob AND get you spray and pray weapons. Personally I believe in aimed sustained fire! But that's just me.
NEVER NEVER be alone! You must have a team! Do you have eyes in the back of your head? We have found 5 ideal for us, it spreads duties nicely, the amount of food/water is not a burden and is concealable. Yet the amount of fire power can be awesome. Arrange 2 for short work 50-300yrds if anything gets closure than 50 you either should be on the move or they're dead. Two for long range 500-1000yrds and one that can cover the 200-600yrd gap.
We prefer 30 cal weapons as primaries and your back up is your choice.
As far as personal load out well that's personal, I have never needed huge amounts of ammo but then again I was never a Marine. HAHAHAHA just kidding!
But in all honesty and in my opinionated opinion I don't think it will play out the way you think!
I think survival will be more of finding food than fighting . I think it will be staying warm or dry or both.
And all this coming from 5 families that have very very little to worry about. |
| malu
User ID: 476687
 United States
8/1/2008 12:54 PM
 | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
nice add UD, about time you peeped up! lol
ballister molina, i have been trying to think of that name for months, that was my first 1911, under two hundred bucks, reliable and i could actually shoot with it, not too handy with a pistol, i like long guns
When peaceful revolution becomes impossible, violent revolution becomes inevitable.
"Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking." |
| malu
User ID: 476687
United States
8/1/2008 12:57 PM
| | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
holy crap, just ran a search on that pistol and they have more than doubled in price! you can get a new springfield for that price
When peaceful revolution becomes impossible, violent revolution becomes inevitable.
"Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking." |
| Lester
User ID: 477281
United States
8/1/2008 12:57 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Underground_Dude has the outlook in perspective.
Although:
Best to have the food on hand NOW, and not have to "find" it. Best way to "find" it is caught in a snare. Hunting is too time intensive, removes you from your home area when you could be needed, and also wastes valuable time; at least until things settle way down.
.30cal rifles are fine, except compared to a .223 firing a 75gr bullet they aren't spectacularly more effective. Found a few 75gr Hornadys in the rocks behnind my target area. Mangled, bent, but together. No mushroom or x-bullet petals, just hang together tough. Break a whitetail deer's shoulder kind of tough. No fist size holes exit wounds which ruin meat, tough. Longrange accurate, penetrates a helmet at 600yds where a .308 NATO will not.
Gonna have access to Moose, Elk, maybe defend against Brown bear? Okay, buy a .308; buy both. I have both. Maybe I will find out how effective a .223 can be on large game sometime soon? It is effective for defense.
Bolt or semi? An accurate semi-auto .308 has it over an accurate .308 bolt in many critical areas. One thing it gives up is velocity out past 700-800 yds; no gas venting, thus higher velocit to the turnbolt rifle. Yet, to get that .308 to stay supersonic (accuracy critical) out past 800yds, those bolt rifles must have a 28" barrel and run very hot loads. The semi won't do that well. Yet, you can buy the AR-10 in .300Rem SAUM chambering or .260Rem which will perform at 1000+ yds.
There is a difference between a survivalist and a survivor. The survivalist has already relocated away from the areas he/she expects to have instability, strife, fallout, or occupation troops. The survivor didn't see "it" coming and took no action to remove self & family from exposure to "it"... Not many who could or were willing to take this action. Some did.
Tools. Weapons are tools that serve many purposes.
Food is also a tool. Having it stored and ready preserves your time for other duties which, if food supply is assured, are critical. If food supply is not assured, eating becomes THE Big Priority, right after Effective Defense. |
| Lester
User ID: 477281
United States
8/1/2008 1:18 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
One last argument for the .223 versus .308:
Almost Twice as many loads per lb of powder
Bullets are $90/600 versus $55 for 250 best prices for 75/168 hornady match bullets in bulk quty
Brass 1x fired is about half price.
Rounds weigh 1/2 as much, can carry twice as much.
Rifle is lighter, capable of better precision delivery of fire.
Round generates less recoil and offers very flat trajectory.
Many deer, moose, elk, bear have been killed with the .30-30. They will be killed with the .223 if that is what you have. Better to have a .30? Even better to have a .338Win or a .35Whelen if knockdown power is the only criteria.
Actually a .35 Whelen with a long barreled .357 mag handgun is a decent combination. All can use the same bullets if you cast & size them yourself. Whelen can shoot pistol bullets fairly capably. Same w/.358Win or .358Norma etc.
Yeah, it is what you have that you have to work with.
Bolt sniper rifle has nothing over the semi-auto sniper rifle except simpler mechanism. Try changing a broken firing pin with a Rem 700 in a firefight! Takes about 30 seconds in with an AR-10, equally fast w/Win 70 or Sako TRG assuming you have full assy firing pin ready to insert into bolt. TRG pin costs about $130, $50 for Win 70 if you can get parts; about $9 for AR-10 no pinned springs on those bolts. Service your extractor? Easy to remove on AR-10, a field service, 10 seconds to do. Win and sako require a punch, Remington 700 forget it. Sure, just carry a spare bolt.
Well, you pays your money and takes your chances.
Food will likely be the best ammunition to own a large stock of. You are the weapon that must be fed to continue operating. If you have food and you are out of the line of fire, hopefully you won't have defense issues.
Those who think they will bug-out, fight their way to safety, or survive with nothing have delusions to say the least.
Later... |
| Enigma
User ID: 70637
United States
8/1/2008 1:32 PM
 | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
While we are on Precision Weapons, how about opting for that Sako TRG-22 in .308winchester??? Only about the finest production sniper rifle in the world! 10rd magazine, easy adjust trigger pull, safety lever inside the trigger guard, stock that adjusts every way to Sunday (Hello Ben!), and accessories out the Wazoo!!! Very tough and durable rifle. Get the 42 in .300 Win Mag or .338 Lapua if you are desirous of 1000+ yd delivery systems. Quoting: Lester
that's the weapon I have ( M995 ) in .300 win mag. box magazine, sub-moa, Leupold 4x12 scope.
I have personally shot a 5 round group at 100 yards you could lay a dime over the bullet holes and barely see the edges...
I habitually kill deer at 350 to 450 yards, as my deerstand is setup for a couple of feeders at known ranges, and the deer come out into the sendero on predictable trails.
the longest kill shot I have made is on a caribou just a bit over 500 yards, though I have shot metal targets out to 1000 yards...
my gimme guns are the same as Omega's. only the Ishapore MarkIV in .308
I bought 10 of them a few years back when they were just being offered. I think I paid 79 bucks EACH for them and gave everybody I like one. My dad has two, one in original, and one he sporterized.
they are FINE bolt action rifles... and STILL a deal at 250 bucks...
but mounting a scope is a bitch, and my dad ended up making his own scope mount for the sport one.
I have an SKS and it's a fun gun and somewhat useable to 200 yards. the longest kill I have with the 7.62x39 cartridge is about 80 yards... on a 200 pound pig.
but they drop so much after 250 yards, that you are not shooting anymore, but flinging low projectile size artillery.
ARTILLERY past 300 yards...
so ANYTHING less than a .308 is is medium range at best...
"knowing and not DOING, is like NOT KNOWING at all" |
| Underground_Dude
User ID: 477303
 Sweden
8/1/2008 1:40 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Underground_Dude has the outlook in perspective.
Although:
Best to have the food on hand NOW, and not have to "find" it. Best way to "find" it is caught in a snare. Hunting is too time intensive, removes you from your home area when you could be needed, and also wastes valuable time; at least until things settle way down.
.30cal rifles are fine, except compared to a .223 firing a 75gr bullet they aren't spectacularly more effective. Found a few 75gr Hornadys in the rocks behnind my target area. Mangled, bent, but together. No mushroom or x-bullet petals, just hang together tough. Break a whitetail deer's shoulder kind of tough. No fist size holes exit wounds which ruin meat, tough. Longrange accurate, penetrates a helmet at 600yds where a .308 NATO will not.
Gonna have access to Moose, Elk, maybe defend against Brown bear? Okay, buy a .308; buy both. I have both. Maybe I will find out how effective a .223 can be on large game sometime soon? It is effective for defense.
Bolt or semi? An accurate semi-auto .308 has it over an accurate .308 bolt in many critical areas. One thing it gives up is velocity out past 700-800 yds; no gas venting, thus higher velocit to the turnbolt rifle. Yet, to get that .308 to stay supersonic (accuracy critical) out past 800yds, those bolt rifles must have a 28" barrel and run very hot loads. The semi won't do that well. Yet, you can buy the AR-10 in .300Rem SAUM chambering or .260Rem which will perform at 1000+ yds.
There is a difference between a survivalist and a survivor. The survivalist has already relocated away from the areas he/she expects to have instability, strife, fallout, or occupation troops. The survivor didn't see "it" coming and took no action to remove self & family from exposure to "it"... Not many who could or were willing to take this action. Some did.
Tools. Weapons are tools that serve many purposes.
Food is also a tool. Having it stored and ready preserves your time for other duties which, if food supply is assured, are critical. If food supply is not assured, eating becomes THE Big Priority, right after Effective Defense. Quoting: Lester
Howdy Lester: I'll try to take these in order.
We have been growing 99.9% of our own food since 1980
What am I going to snare an Elk or a Mule deer? I have seen a few what looked like Jack rabbits but they are few and far between.
Hunting doesn't take me away from the home range it's in our back yard.
I have shot at helmets and I can guarantee you the 7.62 Nato will penetrate I have seen it up close and personal!
BUT
Why would I be shooting at NATO? Like I said earlier IF anything goes down I don't think it will be what you're thinking. You keep going back to combat with armies and I don't understand why?
Bolt vs Semi: Are you sure you worded that correctly?
A semi has a higher velocity because of gas venting?
I just plain disagree with everything you've said in that section but hey Ive only been doing this for a living since the late 60s. AND you tend to be prejudice for what you where trained on.
I have been playing with a DPMS in 308 lately and have not found it to be as accurate and the chronograph doesn't show that either.
We moved in 1980 to a location that could be made inaccessible to all but the most determined. But consider this 22 people in the household 5 of us where on the same team since 1970, 3 of us in the late 60s. 16 dogs and cameras, we own the entire road aprox 16 miles that end in a cliff and we are at altitude. Everyone in the house does PT daily and practices at least 1 hr a day with weapons. Our average reloading bill is around $1000 a week (OUCH)
The police that come to the house to shoot won't aproach unless given permission.
Almost every thing you talked about weapon wise we either have or have had and have put many many rounds down each. And I don't agree with most you've said. I've just tried to keep my mouth shut!
AND I think this will be pretty much it for me on the subject. Everyone is going to do what they want and from what I can see everyone wants an AK or an SKS and that's totally cool with me. I'll just stick with what I know works!
I do have an update from the cops if anyone wants it but I'm done with this subject and need to get back picking veggies. |
| malu
User ID: 476687
United States
8/1/2008 1:49 PM
| | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
The police that come to the house to shoot won't aproach unless given permission.
priceless
lmao
yeah i want the update sir, i am on the edge of my seat and have to leave for work soon
When peaceful revolution becomes impossible, violent revolution becomes inevitable.
"Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking." |
| Omega
User ID: 340280
United States
8/1/2008 1:54 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
yeah i want the update sir, i am on the edge of my seat and have to leave for work soon Quoting: malu
I'll second that bro....
Handguns are a skill; shotguns an art; rifles a science.
_____________________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner.
Disarmament is the precursor to Genocide.
Better to take action now rather than chances later. Your choice. |
| Underground_Dude
User ID: 442132
 Netherlands
8/1/2008 2:00 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Yes they were briefed by NSA but in the capacity HLS.
They were asked to make plans for an emergency to cut off the main road with some minor mention of the DNC.
The weapons were indeed given to them by HLS with the caveat they had to qualify with them by today. That's why they've been training so much. I don't expect to see them till next week. Interesting though is they are going to a mil site to qualify HHHHMMMM.
So they don't know anymore than us they just wanted new toys they couldn't afford. |
| malu
User ID: 476687
United States
8/1/2008 2:02 PM
| | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Yes they were briefed by NSA but in the capacity HLS.
They were asked to make plans for an emergency to cut off the main road with some minor mention of the DNC.
The weapons were indeed given to them by HLS with the caveat they had to qualify with them by today. That's why they've been training so much. I don't expect to see them till next week. Interesting though is they are going to a mil site to qualify HHHHMMMM.
So they don't know anymore than us they just wanted new toys they couldn't afford. Quoting: Underground_Dude 442132
hmmmmmmmm,, i wonder if the HLS would give out the same to patriots who qualify?? lol
thanks and gotta run!
When peaceful revolution becomes impossible, violent revolution becomes inevitable.
"Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking." |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 477281
United States
8/2/2008 2:02 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Well, if I got the syntax out of step, oh well..
No gas vent on a bolt rifle, and for sure there is one on every semi that is not blowback or recoil mechanism. There are guys who shoot AR-10 for highpower though.
As I recall the Ballister-Molina it is a bastardized 1911 design, like the Llama 1911 lookey-likey. Maybe they are accurate?
I dare anyone to put a Kart NM barrel and bushing set in their 1911 and NOT see an improvement, even if you are shooting a Gold Cup or Kimber. I had a series 70 GC, never had a Kimber.
Growing your own food, unless you have a couple tons in your root cellar and warehoused on you place, is not the same as having it in hand. But we all make our plans and do what we can. As to snaring animals, you can take deer with a snare. Hill Country whitetails are pretty small, some of those Juniper/Cedar stands are very dense and would be a great place to make a set. Saw the crummiest trapping videos ever made, Buckshot's stuff; but outlined the basics okay. Using a conibear to catch fish is pretty cool. Probably lots of beaver in East Texas. Having a trap line is like having a smorgasbord. Possum is supposed to be pretty tasty if you catch them live and feed them grain for a few weeks. If you have chickens, you for sure need a havahart trap. Better also watch the skies for Eagles and Hawks.
Enfield, Mauser, and Mosin-Nagant esp the Sako made finn Nagants are quality rifles. The .308 Ishapore likely very fine working rifle. All are chambered for capable ctgs, .303, 7mm & 8mm Mauser, 7.62x54R, powerful stuff; just not too common and very expensive to buy sporting ammo unless you live in Canada for .303 Enfield. The scope mount issue is very real with all these rifles, and the gimpy design of the Enfield stock.
What is really fine about the TRG-S rifle is the interchangeability of the bolts for switchbarreling. The receiver can interchange bolts with ease, from standard, to magnum, to super-magnum. Just buy bolt body for what you desire and then get a new barrel for your ctg. Custom barrelmaker can make you a better barrel than comes on the TRG42.
Pretty trick to have a TRG42 with sporting and heavy barrels in a couple of chamberings. Too bad Sako never made the 42 magazine in .30-06 length and head diameter. Too bad they've stuck with their lame reverse-logic tapered dovetail integral mount. At least the 42 has holes to secure a picatinny rail. Wish the TRG-S did. |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
Australia
8/2/2008 6:25 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
I think survival will be more of finding food than fighting . I think it will be staying warm or dry or both.
And all this coming from 5 families that have very very little to worry about. Quoting: Underground_Dude 477262
I tend to agree, know your ground, don't advertise, work with a group.
Better is a small community of like minded people.
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 477850
United States
8/2/2008 1:05 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Will probably do a Condensed thread on this topic.
A defensive pistol and rifle are at the basic core of tools for self/family preservation along with sufficient ammuntion and skill/mastery in using them.
Why the 1911 pattern .45acp self-loading pistol?
Large bullet, moderate recoil, sufficient velocity
8 or 9 ctg capacity, fast reloads w/sparemagazines
Excellent ergonomics and potential for outstanding accuracy
Wider array of options and custom parts than any other handgun.
Why Armalite design self-loading rifle?
Proven 50yr design history, choice of AR-15 in .223Rem or AR-10 in .308Win
AR-15 offers many advantages, AR-10 offers heavier bullet
AR-15 is widest custom built and accessorized defensive rifle, AR-10 is becoming more widely available and customized.
AR-15 is highly dependent upon ammunition and barrel choice for effectiveness and versatility; AR-10 with 2-3x heavier bullet weight hasn't got these issues, aside from barrel length (can't really do longrange work w/16" barrel etc)
AR platform offers best options for scopes or electronic sights in the A4/A3 versions, Excellent fixed aperture sight in A2 version.
Carbine uppers excellent for close range IE brush hunting.
Rifle uppers superb for longrange & accuracy/target-shooting
AR-15 has advantage of less expensive ammunition and greater variety of bullet weights, esp for handloader
AR-15 complete rifles begin at about $700
AR-10 complete rifles begin at about $1000 from DPMS
AR-15 can be easily assembled from parts or even "built" from an 85% finished lower receiver with minor machine working skills. Parts readily available from many hundreds of sources.
AR-10 parts not as widely distributed, yet possible to purchase finished lower receiver for about $200 and build from there.
Unless your area includes 300lb game animals, and unless you intend/envision deployment against enemy troops; AR-15 is likely your better choice for home defense, and basic defense rifle which will also take game under 300lbs. |
| Lester
User ID: 477850
United States
8/2/2008 1:26 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
On game taking with Defensive Weapons
The .45acp can be superbly accurate. You want an accurate, tightly grouping capability, from your defensive pistol if you intend to use it to take small or moderate sized game. The .45acp isn't limited to these game categories, in Hunting Handguns and other accounts over the years, the 45acp has been used effectively on deer of many sizes and also black bear, yet ammunition is the key to making the .45acp perform on large animals.
On small game, the .45acp must be delivered accurately to achieve a hit. Ammunition is not critical, except that it be accuracy capable in your piece, because placing a .451" diameter hole in a small animal will cause the creature to expire. Doing so without mangling the meat is the issue. A grouse breast with a 1/2" hole through both sides results in a lot of lost meat. Better to have skill and confidence to make a headhot on that bird. Better to hit a rabbit in the shoulder or other area where less meat is amassed. Same way with larger game, placement is a concern, but ammunition is also a consideration. You aren't looking to shoot deer with a highly volatile self-defense hollowpoint. What you want is a good controlled expansion round for hunting which won't blow a fist size exit hole in the animal, thus ruining a lot of meat. Although, unless you are hunting black bear for a hide to make a rug or mount from, such ammunition might be comforting to you.
Lead swaged or cast bullets are great and inexpensive for hunting small game. The 200gr semi-wadcutter with truncated cone design penetrates well, has great accuracy potential, and plenty of weight. Loaded at a mild velocity it will anchor game without ruining meat. Even the 230gr ball ammunition will serve well on small game. The size of the bullet does the work, so don't figure you can't hunt with ball ammo. Ball or roundnosed ammunition does have a reputation for slipping through flesh and allowing flesh to close up over the wound. This is why a flat-pointed round with sharp shoulder is "better", especially on medium or larger game. |
| Lester
User ID: 477850
United States
8/2/2008 1:45 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
There are a number of forums related to the 1911 pistol, as well as general outdoor forums with handgun areas. Lots of discussion there about "which" accessories, sights, modifications etc to consider or select. Same way with the AR-15 and sniping. So, this thread won't get into whether the Novak or Millett rear sight design is "better". We will state that unless you buy a 1911 with aftermarket sights or custom sights already installed, if you intend to use your pistol for defense or target work, it will require a new set of sights. On the standard 1911, the tiny nib of a front sight is about impossible to use, except as an indexing mark, so you need a taller front sight and taller rear to use your new front sight. Great to consider a 1911 type pistol with better sights already installed, but many want just what they want on their gun, so this is no big deal.
One accessory you might consider is a Colt or Johanthan Ciener Conversion Kit. This is a .22 Long Rifle slide, barrel, and magazine kit that fits on your 1911 and allows you to shoot .22lr ammuntion for practice or as a small game or pest removal piece. Great for teaching beginners the functioning of the 1911 without the muzzle blast an recoil of full power .45acp. Great also for trigger-time so you keep your honed reflexes in tune. Although anyone that serious will likely just own another pistol for practice.
A Ciener conversion kit costs about $200 with adj rear sight and 2 magazines. Nice to have, but maybe you just need another pistol chambered for .22LR anyway?
Probably.
After you have a Defensive rifle and handgun, likely the most versatile weapon for daily use will be a .22 Long Rifle pistol or revolver. If you have a conversion unit, then probably a .22LR rifle, maybe with a scopesight. You will probably want to own both. Nice to have a .22 pistol on many occasions and that .22 rifle for the others where a bit more power or more ditance must be covered. Maybe a scoped, 6" .22LR target pistol is a good compromise if you are determined to limit your # of weapons. |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
Australia
8/3/2008 12:53 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Will probably do a Condensed thread on this topic.
A defensive pistol and rifle are at the basic core of tools for self/family preservation along with sufficient ammuntion and skill/mastery in using them.
Why the 1911 pattern .45acp self-loading pistol?
Why Armalite design self-loading rifle? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 477850
While I may agree with some of your points can I point out your being very "American centric" on an international forum? Australia has only a few AR series rifles and they are in the hands of the Govt.
Europe, England, Australia etc. have different setups, different game and different logistics.
Perhaps a caveat, YMMV
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 478387
United States
8/3/2008 1:59 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Prof,
The Armalite AR-10 has been in service with many Euro nations since the 1950s. Pretty highly regarded weapon.
Take what you are able to from this thread. If I lived in Norway or Finland, I could own a suppressor with ease. It'd be great to have access to Hensoldt/Zeiss scopes and Schmidt & Bender products. Hell, might even give IOR a try since they likely have decent service for European customers. Great munitions, The Best, from Lapua, Norma, RWS, DWM and lots of others.
Anyway, location is the real key for survivalism, not weaponry. Hopefully, once the survivalist relocates to an area with potential for self-sufficiency, he/she does not face military daily presence and intrusion, or proximity to many thousands of neighbors. If they do, by my reckoning they have failed at understanding the basics of what survivalism is about.
Lots of gun enthusiasts seem to want to Rambo. The disconnect in Contemporary America is extreme. Many live fully in fantasy without reference to reality. Planning to make a urban/suburban getaway as the balloon goes up is a common theme here. Yet, how many in Euro cities see their gridlock and failing to act which will spell their doom?
No, the survivalist who would own one rifle, will be best served by not making compromise in the Defense arena. It is always possible to hunt with a defensive weapon, yet not pragmatic to expect a hunting weapon to hold up under the rigorous demands a defensive situation could demand.
THE BEST Defensive weapon is of the AR design due to:
Ability to mount a variety of sights,
Ability to interchange barreled upper assemblies,
Ability to adapt to many powerful cartridges,
Ability to adapt & accept many accessories and custom parts.
There is no other assault rifle which enables all the above flexibilities. All aspects are important, some are critical. The FN/FAL and G-3/H-K91 designs are battleproven and reliable, but lack bigtime in the optics mounting dept and are not able to switch barrel assys w/o lengthy armorer service. Same factors with the Garand style rifles, although the Mini-14 with a Shilen replacement barrel has very good potential. |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
Australia
8/3/2008 11:53 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Prof,
The Armalite AR-10 has been in service with many Euro nations since the 1950s. Pretty highly regarded weapon.
Take what you are able to from this thread. If I lived in Norway or Finland, I could own a suppressor with ease. It'd be great to have access to Hensoldt/Zeiss scopes and Schmidt & Bender products. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 478387
If you were in Norway you would use the Hk416.
For the Fins a variety grom the G36 to AK-47
In Aussie the Steyr AUG
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Lester
User ID: 478387
United States
8/4/2008 12:05 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
What a blessing to have access to superior weapons systems!
I probably would not use those weapons. The AUG and new H-K might have ergonomic appeal, but the scopes are mounted too high and with specific model (limited purpose) intent.
My goal is precision shooting. When this can be done with Defense quality weapons rather than sporting quality, all the better say I.
In Norway, guys hunger for Rem 700 PSS and Varmint rifles with Leupold longrange scopes. Excellent kit, that. Yet, I have been there, 2x and while I have longrange bolt weapons, I prefer the semi-auto.
Yet, the reason I bought AR-10 and AR-15 rifles is superior scope mounting systems over the M1a and Mini-14. The interchangeable uppers is just more gravy to enjoy. People world over use Armalite weapons even if it takes extra effort to acquire them.
Use what works for you. |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
Australia
8/4/2008 12:11 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Prof,
Anyway, location is the real key for survivalism, not weaponry. Hopefully, once the survivalist relocates to an area with potential for self-sufficiency, he/she does not face military daily presence and intrusion, or proximity to many thousands of neighbors. If they do, by my reckoning they have failed at understanding the basics of what survivalism is about. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 478387
I'll agree, and so the "battle-rifle" is less important than the "survival" rifle.
Lots of gun enthusiasts seem to want to Rambo. The disconnect in Contemporary America is extreme. Many live fully in fantasy without reference to reality. Planning to make a urban/suburban getaway as the balloon goes up is a common theme here. Yet, how many in Euro cities see their gridlock and failing to act which will spell their doom? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 478387
That depends on where you are, I hazard a guess that those in London, Paris etc. are much the same as those in American cities, smaller countries that have a sense of self sufficiency more so and those in Africa are at war already.
No, the survivalist who would own one rifle, will be best served by not making compromise in the Defense arena. It is always possible to hunt with a defensive weapon, yet not pragmatic to expect a hunting weapon to hold up under the rigorous demands a defensive situation could demand. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 478387
The "survivalist" is unlikely to put "all his/her cartridges in one rifle" to paraphrase the old quote about eggs, many people I know and consider real "survivalists" have at least a rimfire, two or three center-fires and a shotgun or two.
THE BEST Defensive weapon is of the AR design due to:
Ability to mount a variety of sights,
Ability to interchange barreled upper assemblies,
Ability to adapt to many powerful cartridges,
Ability to adapt & accept many accessories and custom parts. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 478387
But only in America where these guns and parts are common.
There is no other assault rifle which enables all the above flexibilities. All aspects are important, some are critical. The FN/FAL and G-3/H-K91 designs are battleproven and reliable, but lack bigtime in the optics mounting dept and are not able to switch barrel assys w/o lengthy armorer service. Same factors with the Garand style rifles, although the Mini-14 with a Shilen replacement barrel has very good potential. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 478387
Here again you lean towards having to fight your fellow man, I will add that in America WTSHTF That is a likely scenario, ergo your choice of an AR is a good one for you.
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Lester
User ID: 478387
United States
8/4/2008 4:14 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
When TSHTF, and you are unable to acquire/choose/purchase another weapon; you had better have something that isn't a compromise if your ass is on the line. Even more so, if your family is relying on you.
Can't grasp the concept, Prof?
When there are no game regulations, when sporting philosophies no longer mean a damn thing, you can take a deer with a .308 or .223, but you can't really respond to hostile intentions with a Ruger #1 or Winchester High-Wall singleshot, no matter how accurate or how powerful. Unless you have enough guys to replicate the final redoubt action at Roark's Drift in Natal, a single shot or a bolt action is not sufficient.
If it is all you got, then you do your best.
Mel Tappan advised owning one Battle Rifle over any Working Rifle (sporting) to enable all your options. MT advised buying handguns after the battlerifle because of the legislation prone climate; handguns always legislated away first. Maybe this has changed. But right now; (and this thread is for those who haven't made up their minds), you need to take action while you can. Reportedly assault style weapons and semi-auto pistols are in high demand.
Taking action is what sets planning in motion, what avails benefits to you from your analysis.
I can only urge the reader to prepare for all contingencies and self-defense is the highest priority to consider. If you are responsible for assuring the security and well-being of others, you cannot afford not to obtain the best means to meet your needs. |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
Australia
8/4/2008 11:49 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
When TSHTF, and you are unable to acquire/choose/purchase another weapon; you had better have something that isn't a compromise if your ass is on the line. Even more so, if your family is relying on you.
Can't grasp the concept, Prof? Quoting: Lester
I think you miss my intent, I agree with your premise that a "one rifle" for everything should be a tried and proven design, I lean toward the FN-FAL, but I consider a survivalist is someone who has prepared beforehand, therefore having more than one weapon.
When there are no game regulations, when sporting philosophies no longer mean a damn thing, you can take a deer with a .308 or .223, Quoting: Lester
In Aussie we have no deer! Kangaroo and Wallaby are very thin skinned and can be taken with a rimfire at 70 yards
but you can't really respond to hostile intentions with a Ruger #1 or Winchester High-Wall singleshot, no matter how accurate or how powerful. Quoting: Lester
I was not suggesting single shot rifles,
If it is all you got, then you do your best. Quoting: Lester
All of which I have tried to point too, much of which depends on the country you live in, AR's any flavour are not allowed in Aussie, same for England.
handguns always legislated away first. Maybe this has changed. But right now; (and this thread is for those who haven't made up their minds), you need to take action while you can. Reportedly assault style weapons and semi-auto pistols are in high demand. Quoting: Lester
First you have gun registration, followed by gun licensing, followed by restrictions on types of firearms, then usage, then confiscation of "certain types", all with hefty fees and charges to make it an elite pastime.
I can only urge the reader to prepare for all contingencies and self-defense is the highest priority to consider. If you are responsible for assuring the security and well-being of others, you cannot afford not to obtain the best means to meet your needs. Quoting: Lester
To which I agree, however in a self defense situation I would rather be able to have more than one firearm pointing at the enemy.
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Lester
User ID: 479024
United States
8/4/2008 10:05 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
How about a complete selection of arms for a rural located family?
Two Ruger 10/22 or Marlin 39 .22LR rifles
Two Ruger .22LR semi-auto handguns
Two Ruger Mini-14 or AR-15 .223 rifles
Two AR-10 or M1a .308 rifles
6-8 spare magazines ea rifle
Two or more 1911 .45acp pistols
3-4 spare magazines ea pistol
Two .44mag Ruger Super Redhawk or S&W 629 revolvers one short, one long barrel.
Remington 700 stainless fluted barrel .308win Varmint Special
Remington 700 SF Sendero .300Win Mag
Two Remington 870 Combo shotgun 12 ga
Just for starters.... |
| Enigma
User ID: 478572
United States
8/4/2008 10:10 PM
| | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
To me that calls for what you want to call a sniper rig, I call it a large caliber accurate hunting rifle. Nothing fancy just something you know and can hit what you aim at.
We prefer 30 cal weapons as primaries and your back up is your choice.
I think survival will be more of finding food than fighting . I think it will be staying warm or dry or both.
And all this coming from 5 families that have very very little to worry about. Quoting: Underground_Dude 477262
same here...
same here...
preferred hunting rig .300 win mag sub-moa with EXCELLENT optics...
OTHER survival gun? HK91 with TWO stanag scopes... 2.5 x10
got ammo?
good...
"knowing and not DOING, is like NOT KNOWING at all" |
| Enigma
User ID: 478572
United States
8/4/2008 10:15 PM
| | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
I believe a pistol with a shoulder stock would need a 16" barrel to be legal without a short barreled rifle tax stamp.
why did this post twice?
anyway I'll edit the post for the NEO 22
[ link to www.gunmuse.com]
Methinks you want one of these....
[ link to www.impulsegunbarrels.com]
yes INDEED that is EXACTLY what I want...
hmm thank you SIR
"knowing and not DOING, is like NOT KNOWING at all" |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
Australia
8/5/2008 9:22 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
How about a complete selection of arms for a rural located family?
Two Ruger 10/22 or Marlin 39 .22LR rifles
Two Ruger .22LR semi-auto handguns Quoting: Lester
I like the Browning pistols but the 10/22 is a great little rimfire.
Two Ruger Mini-14 or AR-15 .223 rifles
Two AR-10 or M1a .308 rifles
6-8 spare magazines ea rifle Quoting: Lester
You could make one a bolt rifle with a varmint barrel.
Two or more 1911 .45acp pistols
3-4 spare magazines ea pistol
Two .44mag Ruger Super Redhawk or S&W 629 revolvers one short, one long barrel. Quoting: Lester
One HK P7 M13 and make one of the Rugers a .357
Remington 700 stainless fluted barrel .308win Varmint Special Remington 700 SF Sendero .300Win Mag Quoting: Lester
I would have gone to a .270 for versatility or 7mm-08 if you wanted to stick with the same case for ammo.
Two Remington 870 Combo shotgun 12 ga
Just for starters.... Quoting: Lester
Mossberg 500 or 590A1 with an additiona 28" field barrel.
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
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