| | | Page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 | Survival Guns discussed
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
8/5/2008 9:23 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
You're welcome...
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 479462
8/5/2008 2:17 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Re suggested armament:
.223, .308, and .300Win are US military deployed cartridges. Magnum was listed for big game and longrange applications. .223 is easy to shoot effectively, very good choice for small stature women or children for defensive purposes.
Don't think your children are capable of using a weapon? You haven't done your part as a parent. Think it reprehensible to suggest that children might have to know how to employ arms to defend themselves and family? You simply are not grasping the potentials you/your family is facing.
I don't give a damn what guns you prefer.
Have owned Browning and Colt .22 semi-auto pistols; own none anylonger. Better choices out there. Better in terms of accessories and parts availability. Try buying a spare clip/magazine for a Browning Challenger. Try buying one for under $100. Try buying spare parts for a Colt Woodsman, or a High Standard Victor or Supermatic. All fine pistols, but unless there are Spare Parts listed in the Brownells or Midway Catalog you should think twice.
Spare parts availability is a HUGE consideration.
Ease of repair and barrel swapping is a Vital consideration.
No, you won't need to change barrels on a .22lr unless it takes a squib and follow up rounds balloon the tube. WATCH OUT FOR FEDERAL CHEAP-O .22LR AMMO!
Recommendations based on handloading potential for your once fired cases. The .223 and .308 when handloaded/reloaded can take all lower 48 game. The .44mag is also capable of taking any lg game animal. If you live in the Mountain West, or High Plains; maybe you want a LongRange rifle that can work for hunting or anti-sniper purposes? The .300Win is the ticket. The .308 Varmint Special serves for working rifle and precision longrange delivery. Especially with handloads. Yet, if funds are available, why not also have the .300mag?
12ga Rem 870 with 28" vent rib barrel with interchangeable choke systems, plus 20" barrel w/rifle sights is a great choice, fairly cheap also. You could purchase a rifled shotgun barrel and then a separate field barrel for wingshooting etc, but why?
Is a shotgun really as critical to your survival as a rifle and defensive pistol? Are you really going to be gathering game with it? Plan on taking the beagles out to run rabbits, shooting doves by your water tank, sitting out in a blind on the river over a string of decoys? Gonna pass-shoot the geese on their Southerly migrations? Probably not.
The shotgun is a great sporting implement, but a poor survival tool. If you come upon a couple ducks, a .22lr to the head takes one for sure. A pellet rifle takes grouse, doves or pigeons that might light in a tree near your house. Gonna go out and walk up the prairie chickens and pheasant? I am not envisioning a pastorale experience, nor a patrician way of life on quail or grouse expeditions. In fact, learning how to make a good box trap might be the best solution to gathering fowl for the table. Ever read, Danny, The Champion Of The World? Maybe rum soaked raisins are the way to capture grouse (just kidding). |
| Lester
User ID: 479462
8/5/2008 2:38 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
My reference to Roald Dahl's Danny, Champion Of The World set me thinking; too many people are seemingly just disconnected from reality to grasp what they are facing.
When the money fails, or the goods are simply no longer available; you will have to make do with what you have.
Your money, your marketable and ill-liquid assets, all need to be reviewed to determine what you have to work with. IT IS TIME TO THINK ON THE BASIS OF: USE IT OR LOSE IT...
Still saving your money? Afraid of getting hit with capital gains tax or pre-surrender penalties? Think: USE IT OR LOSE IT!
Once you have laid in supplies of longterm non-perishable food, water storage and filtering devices, durable clothing, outerwear, sleeping bags and other camping gear; plus food preparation equipment, and other self-sufficiency gear & supplies; you need to devote time to deciding what weapons and ammunition supplies you must have and then buy them.
You can refer to the Essential Skills threads for discussion on items with recommendations. Yet, this comment is just to put the importance of weapons in perspective.
Weapons are another Essential Tool which will preserve and protect your family IF you own them, know how to use them, and have adequate ammunition to enable your confident deployment. Not very confidence inspiring to have a minimal ammunition supply if the chips are down.
You can make many accommodations and compromises with your survival gear, yet there are no substitutes for proper weapons.
IF a grown man intends you harm and is within your personal space, you had better be wearing a large caliber pistol, and be non-hesitant about shooting him until he drops if you are threatened.
If you note bullets striking around you while out gardening or gathering firewood in your back pasture, you had better have a precision capable defensive rifle and cover of some sort to duck behind. If all you have is a pistol or shotgun, you will likely suffer a defeat; unless you can figure a plan to ambush your assailant(s) before they can overwhelm you.
You can survive not having the best sleeping bag or rain gear, but you won't likely survive an armed encounter if you must compromise your defensive capabilities because you figured a bolt action hunting rifle would be okay.
Defensive actions ALWAYS put you at big disadvantage. Why increase the odds of your assailant's success by being inadequately armed? |
| Lester
User ID: 479462
8/5/2008 2:47 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
NOW is the time to purchase your firearms and ammunition.
Do Not put off purchases you have decided upon another day.
What is here today, when you see it offered for sale, will be gone tomorrow.
No matter how many models of AR-15 rifles are shown in catalogs, What Can You Buy Today For Immediate Delivery?
Not much!
There are great demands currently for quality weaponry. As financing from banks breaks down; and it already has, many manufacturers will have more difficulty meeting delivery expectations. Ammunition is already in short supply.
On page 1 or 2; a guy is talking about ordering a takedown H-S Precision sniper rifle. Cool rifle, but essentially unavailable. Who has one in stock? There are very few stocking dealers for this kind of custom order merchandise. Do you really believe you have 6-12mos to wait before you will need to possess your rifle?
The Assault Weapons Ban of the early 1990s is still fresh in the memory of those old enough to have had to endure it. The prospects of more liberal gun legislation makes these people not hesitate to acquire what they want/need to own now. Because of this, and shortages in ammunition availability, this merchandise is in Heavy Demand.
Got money but no self-defense weaponry or supplies?
Concerned about your survival prospects?
Use it or lose it.... |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 479342
8/5/2008 2:57 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
What's the difference in weapons chambered for miltary 5.56x45 VS civilian .223? |
| Lester
User ID: 479462
8/5/2008 3:57 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
There is a minute dimensional difference between .223rem and 5.56mm ammunition. Many commercial AR-15 rifles are chambered with the Wylde reamer which is a near match chamber which allows both cartridges to feed/function reliably.
There are also differences in the SAAMI (commercial .223) and Military 5.56mm operating pressures.
Selective fire 5.56mm weapons may also have even larger dimension chambers.
Military ammunition typically operates at lower pressures than commercial rounds. Machinegun ammunition is usually loaded to higher than commercial pressures. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 479342
8/5/2008 4:03 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
There is a minute dimensional difference between .223rem and 5.56mm ammunition. Many commercial AR-15 rifles are chambered with the Wylde reamer which is a near match chamber which allows both cartridges to feed/function reliably.
There are also differences in the SAAMI (commercial .223) and Military 5.56mm operating pressures.
Selective fire 5.56mm weapons may also have even larger dimension chambers.
Military ammunition typically operates at lower pressures than commercial rounds. Machinegun ammunition is usually loaded to higher than commercial pressures. Quoting: Lester
Thank you.
In perusing the DPMS website, I see they have rifle chambered specifically for one or the other.
Are the cartridges interchangeable, or will one work for both and the other not? |
| Lester
User ID: 479462
8/5/2008 4:22 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
The military chamber is of larger dimension to accommodate variations in brass that might occur, and to facilitate operation under worst case operating scenarios. Extraction can be a problem with tight chambered weapons using mil-spec ammunition.
Sniper, precision weapons use different issue ammunition. Match ammunition is held to tighter dimensional and component tolerances, so these rifles can be chambered with precision reamers and will function reliably.
I may have this wrong, but I am pretty sure (so you do your own due diligence research to be sure), that the .223rem commercial chambers are tighter than the 5.56mm chambers. In a bolt action, benchrest rifle you want a tight chamber because this minimizes brass stretching and gives absolute best accuracy; at least that is the theory benchrest guys follow.
The preferred chamber on a non-selective fire .223/5.56 weapon is the Wylde or other match tolerant hybrid. You want to be able to fire 5.56mm NATO type milspec ammunition, but without the greater case expansion that the 5.56mm chamber will provide. You want a bigger than .223rem chamber to assure ctg chambering and extraction under all conditions but especially when the weapon has been rapidly fired and is very warm or hot.
Rock River Arms, Bushmaster, Armalite and most other commercial mfrs use a Wylde dimension reamer unless, like Colt and LMT or Noveske they are building to absolute mil-spec dimensions.
For general and accuracy purposes you probably don't want a 5.56mm mil-spec chamber. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 479342
8/5/2008 4:27 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Thank you for the advice, Lester!
I am most concerned about the ability to use the widest array of ammunition, rather than ultimate accuracy.
The Wylde chamber sounds like the bet compromise. |
| Lester
User ID: 479462
8/5/2008 4:51 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Twist rate should also be a concern. A 1 in 8 (1:8) twist is excellent, although 1:7 is likely best if you expect to use 80gr bullets, which will require handloading. 1:9 twist is common for 55/62 gr bullets, but...
ar15.com will have info in its communities section about chambers and twist rates. If you want absolutely the best designs with regard to mil-spec design, look at Noveske and Lewis Machine & Tool. There is a thread on "Pat Rogers M4 class" on AR15.com might be interesting to look at for info. Although, it is my expectation that if you envision fighting that aggressively you have failed the first lesson of survivalism which is: locate out of the line of fire.
Chrome lined barrels are also touted as "necessary". They have pros and cons depending on who has chrome lined the barrel. Plus is longer barrel throat life. Con is possible poor accuracy due to lining imperfections. Stainless barrel will usually have better accuracy and long life if not rapid fired continually. Moly barrel will have shortest life, but great possible accuracy. Stainless is a very good compromise if accuracy is a big concern.
Heavier barrel profile will usually shoot with best accuracy.
20" barrel is good length for longrange shooting. 16" barrels not as capable due to velocity losses. Free float tube or handguard will also assist accuracy goals. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 476366
8/5/2008 7:17 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Just when I had run out of commentary....
I find most AK/SKS guys embrace the russian technology because of the affordability of the weapons and ammunition, plus they buy into the legend that the AR is not "reliable". AK/SKS guys are willing to compromise big time in the accuracy dept to have that "come out of the mud firing" fantasy adding to their mojo. Maybe if you live in a swamp and will be snorkeling around playing SEAL, the AK/SKS is for you?
The ammunition is limited. Sure, the Khmer Rouge had no problems killing 2 million Cambodians, but how often will your adversary oblige by kneeling at your feet and closing their eyes as you press the trigger? How is that trigger pull anyway??? Can you keep 10rds inside a 3" circle at 200 or 300yds firing in 1 minute, 10 seconds? AKs are pretty notorious for poor accuracy. Of course they aren't meant to be precision instruments.
Yet, it all depends on what you envision in your mode of survivalism. The bullet diameter of the AK and SKS is .310. USA and NATO 7.62 diameter is .308. You could reload any Boxer primed cases with .308 bullets but they would not hold the rifling so they would be terribly inaccurate.
The ammunition is limited. While the case is the basis for several superb Benchrest Cartridges, the power and bullet weight is much below the basic .30-30Win which is about the mildest .30cal ctg in common use in America.
Steel cased cartridge cases cannot be reloaded.
Berdan primed cases are not practical to reload, but can be; IF you have the special depriming tool and find a source for Berdan primers. Years ago I found some Berdan primers at The Old Western Scrounger. RWS, great product. PITA to deprime.
The survivalist is different from a combatant.
The survivalist is not looking to get into the fray. Rather fighting is something to be avoided if possible. Best way to avoid the turmoil after the collapse might be to have relocated to a somewhat remote location and be at good distance from cities and suburbs.
I have no use for any weapon that is not up to my standards of accuracy, power, and versatility. There are a number of these about, fortunately. I have discussed the basic ones in this thread. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 476599
Out of all the people who have said stuff like this guy above, I have never encountered one of them who is willing to stand 200 yards downrange from my SKS.
Both AR's and AK/SKS's are good for SHTF or TEOTWAWKI situations. If you live out in the country, then an AR is probably better. Suburban or urban, then the AR loses a lot of advantages IMHO. The exit wound from a HP 7.62x39 is the size of a grapefruit, which is much more important to me in an urban or suburban situation than the added range of an AR.
In fact, for suburban or urban dwellers it would be better to have a 1911 or XD45 as your primary weapon. Carrying an AR-15 around town would be like putting a target on your back in an urban survival situation. Not to say it would be good to have either an AR or AK at your disposal, but I wouldn't use it for my primary weapon in those circumstances. |
| Lester
User ID: 479462
8/5/2008 7:41 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Surviving and Survival are different subjects.
If you are uprepared for events which could cause your death, making it through is surviving.
Persons concerned with Survival make plans in advance to avoid the circumstances which are overt threats to their well-being. That said, there are very few, if any, urban or suburban survivalists. Perhaps being caught up in a temporary situation like a riot or aftermath of natural disaster, with adequate planning, might enable your comfortable perseverance; it also might not.
Self-sufficiency is a large aspect of the Survivalism concept. There is a goal to remove family from dependencies upon many fragile infrastructures. Being able to transition from a functioning member of society to Survivalist acting for preservation and self-sufficiency can be a seamless move IF you are prepared.
It is my observation that any Survivalists weaponry, other than rimfire, ought to be capable of being reloaded. Most 7.652x39 ammunition is not. Any Boxer primed 7.62x39 ammo will cost much more than 7.62x51 (.308Win). So, why accept a minimal powered cartridge with many handicaps?
What would be interesting is whether the AK/SKS many choose to rely on will group on a grapefruit sized target at 200yds. Probably not. |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
8/5/2008 9:37 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
NOW is the time to purchase your firearms and ammunition.
Do Not put off purchases you have decided upon another day.
What is here today, when you see it offered for sale, will be gone tomorrow. Quoting: Lester
Back in 2000 would have been better, Y2K did spook some people but the vast majority carry on as though they live in Nirvana. Be prepared has always been a good motto.
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
8/5/2008 9:50 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
It is my observation that any Survivalists weaponry, other than rimfire, ought to be capable of being reloaded. Most 7.652x39 ammunition is not. Any Boxer primed 7.62x39 ammo will cost much more than 7.62x51 (.308Win). So, why accept a minimal powered cartridge with many handicaps?
What would be interesting is whether the AK/SKS many choose to rely on will group on a grapefruit sized target at 200yds. Probably not. Quoting: Lester
I would add that while the SKS/AK may very well fire in muddy conditions etc. it is designed for, and made from, cheap stamped metal parts, I have seen what happens to an SKS when left forgotten for 12 months in the back of a ute in central North Queensland, a small hammer was needed to separate the rifle and the barrel was clogged with rust from the residue of cheap Chinese ammunition.
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 476366
8/5/2008 11:50 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Surviving and Survival are different subjects.
If you are uprepared for events which could cause your death, making it through is surviving.
Persons concerned with Survival make plans in advance to avoid the circumstances which are overt threats to their well-being. That said, there are very few, if any, urban or suburban survivalists. Perhaps being caught up in a temporary situation like a riot or aftermath of natural disaster, with adequate planning, might enable your comfortable perseverance; it also might not.
Self-sufficiency is a large aspect of the Survivalism concept. There is a goal to remove family from dependencies upon many fragile infrastructures. Being able to transition from a functioning member of society to Survivalist acting for preservation and self-sufficiency can be a seamless move IF you are prepared.
It is my observation that any Survivalists weaponry, other than rimfire, ought to be capable of being reloaded. Most 7.652x39 ammunition is not. Any Boxer primed 7.62x39 ammo will cost much more than 7.62x51 (.308Win). So, why accept a minimal powered cartridge with many handicaps?
What would be interesting is whether the AK/SKS many choose to rely on will group on a grapefruit sized target at 200yds. Probably not. Quoting: Lester
I agree that according to the definition of Survivalism, there are few urban or suburban Survivalists. However, there are many people in non-rural places who may be reading this thread for advice on weapon choice to protect themselves so they can survive as long as possible in a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI situation. A Survivalist lives the lifestyle regardless of whether or not SHTF or TEOTWAWKI ever comes. There are relatively very few people in the world able to commit themselves to that lifestyle. There are far more people who would just want to be able to defend themselves.
As far as reloading is concerned, I think if you can do it, then that's a plus. However, if a situation arises where TSHTF or TEOWAWKI happens, reloading may not be practical. In fact, the whole idea of having a place out in the wilderness stocked with food, supplies, and ammo might not necessarily be a good idea. Two possible reasons are 1) the city dwellers you mention earlier may come out to your "fort" looking for food and 2) the government may not like the idea of you hoarding all those valuable supplies. Now the AK wielding city dwellers might be easily dispatched by your AR, but Blackwater contractors with air support and infra-red satellites will not be so easy. If they come a knockin, your reloading days will be over.
IMHO, if you don't have mobility as part of your preparations, you are not prepared. Bugging in is preferable to bugging out in most situations, but if you are depending 100% entirely on a non-mobile stash in a single location, then you are not prepared. What do you propose someone should do if Blackwater shows up? Stay and fight with your AR? Hell no, bug out if you can! If 100% of your preparations are confiscated by .gov, then you go from Survivalist to feral human which is just one step above FEMA camper.
I guess my point is just that there is no "right" way to prepare. There are too many variables out there for anyone to be certain that they are fully and properly prepared. All we can hope for is for each person to prepare the best they can and then hopefully all the "good guys" will find each other and band together. Don't get me wrong, Lester, I enjoy your posts and find them full of valuable ideas. I just think the AR/AK debate is stupid because they are really like apples and oranges. They were designed by two very different countries with different philosophies, one with more professional, symmetrical, and high-tech war in mind and the other with low-tech, asymmetrical insurgency fought by rice farmers in mind. |
| Lester
User ID: 479462
8/5/2008 11:51 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
The survivalist chooses his/her tools carefully and with much consideration. Ideally, you have a minimal number of various cartridges to supply for and can effectively move accessories between various weapons. Nice to minimize duplication and maximize effectiveness.
Location is a primary consideration. It influences your working gun needs and other gear selection priorities. Hopefully, you gave much thought to where you chose to live or relocate to.
No one is going to be very long-lived if they expect to survive numerous fire-fights. Better to be somewhere away from where those fights occur.
Good Luck and God Bless! |
| malu 
User ID: 476687
8/6/2008 12:31 AM
 | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
I guess my point is just that there is no "right" way to prepare. There are too many variables out there for anyone to be certain that they are fully and properly prepared. All we can hope for is for each person to prepare the best they can and then hopefully all the "good guys" will find each other and band together. Don't get me wrong, Lester, I enjoy your posts and find them full of valuable ideas. I just think the AR/AK debate is stupid because they are really like apples and oranges. They were designed by two very different countries with different philosophies, one with more professional, symmetrical, and high-tech war in mind and the other with low-tech, asymmetrical insurgency fought by rice farmers in mind.
this is how i look at it
AR-15, aimed and sustained fire
AK, quantity has a quality all of its own, ie, the more lead you can get down range, the better
word of caution on that pistol stock, quite sure that would make it a "short barreled rifle" and legally challenging
When peaceful revolution becomes impossible, violent revolution becomes inevitable.
"Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking." |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 476366
8/6/2008 1:47 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
I guess my point is just that there is no "right" way to prepare. There are too many variables out there for anyone to be certain that they are fully and properly prepared. All we can hope for is for each person to prepare the best they can and then hopefully all the "good guys" will find each other and band together. Don't get me wrong, Lester, I enjoy your posts and find them full of valuable ideas. I just think the AR/AK debate is stupid because they are really like apples and oranges. They were designed by two very different countries with different philosophies, one with more professional, symmetrical, and high-tech war in mind and the other with low-tech, asymmetrical insurgency fought by rice farmers in mind.
this is how i look at it
AR-15, aimed and sustained fire
AK, quantity has a quality all of its own, ie, the more lead you can get down range, the better
word of caution on that pistol stock, quite sure that would make it a "short barreled rifle" and legally challenging Quoting: malu
So, in other words, the correct answer is to have BOTH an AR and an AK!
  :squirrel:  |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 479462
8/6/2008 3:59 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Any discussion on the selection of weapons is always contentious. Guys who are afficionados/gun-nuts sometimes must resort to rationalization, become defensive about their choices. Why? It's the internet, man!
Ideally, you have every weapon you are motivated to purchase. Better still, you have common ammunition interchangeabilities.
A 16" barreled AR-15 carbine or M4 with fast-reaction sight is a close-range weapon that should be 1moa accurate or better out to 350yds. A 20" Service Rifle barreled upper will be as accurate or better to 600yds, even better with an A4 receiver and optic rather than Match aperture sighted with heavy steel float tube. So you put on a lightweight free floating handguard and have a 9lb versatile rifle which might hold .5moa to 500yds.
What really do you need????
For the money, if you have funds to handload, a quality AR-15 with match 20" barrel will do it all. Maybe you choose an 18" barrel instead? Still keeps your velocity up there for longrange potentials.
I have no use for anything in 7.62x39. The Russian case is great for benchrest use in .22PPC or 6mmPPC. Great accuracy with a good barrel and perfect receiver.
I own .308s. They are heavier, ammo weighs twice as much as .223; can't argue with the knockdown power. In an AR-10 with 180gr Grand Slam, the AR-10s 20rd mag will kill anything that walks, crawls and maybe swims. Brown bear are going to die if you empty a mag in their chest. Moose, elk, bison, musk ox, cattle; all will die likely very swiftly. With a Rem 700 LONG ACTION I can load a 200gr maybe 210gr bullet for even more power.
Want that magnum power? Go for it. .300Win Mag is superb longrange ctg. Maybe you want Ultra Mag, Wby Mag, or .30-378? Your call.
.338 is even BETTER! Much more power, up to 300gr bullets, high velocity, great accuracy since the Lapua Mag made .338 the 1600yd ctg for military world over.
Maybe you want that .44mag carbine or a .444Marlin, or .45-70 or .450Marlin? Go for it. Nice to have that .44mag handgun and rifle/carbine that will take the same bullet diameter for handloading & bullet casting.
Want to own that .22-250 hotrod? A .243 or .243Ackley Improved? .257 Roberts, .25-06, 264Win, .270Win, .30-06 or .35Whelen? .375H&H, .458Lott?
Most anything any of the above will do, you can do with a 20" barreled AR-15 and/or a 20" AR-10. EXCEPT really do practical Longrange 1000yd sniping. .223 & .308 are limited to about 600yds and 800yds on practical basis. Want to shoot over 800yds? Get a special chambered upper or a Magnum bolt rifle. 6.5Grendel or 6mmAR works on the AR-15. .243Win, .260Rem, 7mm-08 work on the AR-10.
With the right sight you can likely take any game animal except brown bear with 75gr match ammunition in an AR-15. Maybe he will kill you before dying, but 30rds of 75gr ammo in head and upper torso will kill a brown bear, eventually. A heavy long bullet will penetrate better than a short one. A heavy jacketed match bullet will hang together retaining all its weight.
If you only can own one rifle, an AR-15 with the heaviest ammunition you can load, would be a good ticket. Sierra or Nosler 77gr bullets are the heaviest magazine length oal bullets unless berger or jlk has a new design. Shooting the heaviest and highest ballistic coefficient bullet you can get to function in your magazines is what makes sense to me. You can always choose lighter bullets for varminting or pelt hunting, but a 75/77gr bullet will serve in most instances you might face. If you are in bear country, maybe you want that .454 Casull on your hip for backup? I think the AR-15 will serve most situations without a hitch. |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
8/6/2008 9:51 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
No one is going to be very long-lived if they expect to survive numerous fire-fights. Better to be somewhere away from where those fights occur.
Good Luck and God Bless! Quoting: Lester
Absolutely true.
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Lester
User ID: 479920
8/6/2008 7:51 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
bump |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
8/7/2008 11:43 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
A 16" barreled AR-15 carbine or M4 with fast-reaction sight is a close-range weapon that should be 1moa accurate or better out to 350yds. A 20" Service Rifle barreled upper will be as accurate or better to 600yds, even better with an A4 receiver and optic rather than Match aperture sighted with heavy steel float tube. So you put on a lightweight free floating handguard and have a 9lb versatile rifle which might hold .5moa to 500yds. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 479462
5.56 NATO Ball Ammunition Ballistic Comparison
based on Aberdeen Proving Ground Data
velocity (fps) trajectory (in.) drop (inches) drift (inches)* range
M193 M855 M193 M855 M193 M855 M193 M855
(meters)
0 3,200 3,100 -2.5 -2.5 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
100 2,774 2,751 +2.8 +4.4 -2.2 -2.3 1.3 1.1
200 2,374 2,420 +2.7 +5.8 -9.9 -10.2 5.8 4.9
300 2,012 2,115 -4.9 0.0 -25.1 -25.3 14.2 11.8
400 1,680 1,833 -23.0 -15.0 -50.8 -49.5 27.6 22.4
500 1,373 1,569 -56.2 -42.9 -91.6 -86.7 47.5 38.0
600 1,106 1,323 -113.1 -88.2 -156.1 -141.3 76.4 59.5
700 995 1,106 -206.8 -156.1 -257.3 -220.9 113.5 88.4
800 927 1,010 -339.9 -267.7 -398.0 -339.2 156.1 124.9
At 600 yards your 5.56 is slower than a rimfire but has slightly more energy, your holdover is 13 feet!
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
8/7/2008 11:45 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Go here for the tables and data.
[link to www.ak-47.net]
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 480449
8/7/2008 11:49 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
is a lever action 30-30 a good survival gun? |
| Lester
User ID: 480432
8/7/2008 12:09 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Potato/Potahtoe
Except there are different varieties of potatoes, prof!
Looking at the Sierra 80gr .224 bullet with initial velocity of 2600fps as developed in the .223Rem:
At 600yds the bullet retains 1476fps and 387ft lbs of energy.
Zeroed at 300yds this bullet will drop 69.5 inches at 600yds
This bullet is the primary competition bullet for Service Rifle matches in the USA. Many competitors strive for and achieve a .5moa accuracy from their sling supported, iron sighted rifles. .5moa at 600yds equals group size of 3" for 10rds.
The 69gr Sierra which is the other data I have in my older manual shows 1410fps and 304ft lbs energy with drop of 76.11 inches at 600yds.
I have 90gr bullets in my kit which takes a 1:6.5 twist barrel. If I break down and blow $30 on a new manual I would have ballistic info, but I haven't; so I don't.
I have been quite specific about which bullet weights and barrel twist rates to select if choosing to rely on the AR-15.
The 40-55gr bullets are excellent for close range and varmints of prairie dog and vermin size.
I have recovered, looking at one right now, several 75gr hornady match bullets that have struck rocks or other heavy objects. These bullets are mangled, but have not shed their jackets, so they retain 100% of their weight; best as I can tell.
Looking at the .308Win with 168gr matchking at 600yds it is going 1536fps and has 880ft lbs of energy. When zeroed for 300yds, at 600yds it drops 76 inches. This data assumes a 2600fps muzzle velocity. 2500fps might be more realistic for this bullet weight in a semi-auto rifle like M1a. |
| Lester
User ID: 480432
8/7/2008 12:29 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
The Marlin 336 in .30-30Win is more versatile than the Model 1894 Winchester for survivalist purposes. Either rifle is very handy and fast to deploy, so they are very good for general purpose or Working Rifle use. The Marlin is preferable because it is easier to fit with a scope sight. Either rifle will benefit from addition of an aperture rear sight.
Any working rifle is not the equal of a semi-auto military style rifle. Large capacity magazines, fast reloading, barrels made to take rapid fire and parts commonality with mil-spec rifles, not to mention standard and widely available ammunition make these rifles very desirable.
The .30-30 has taken all sorts of big game. Best with 170gr bullets than the 150gr bullets for large game. Mild recoil makes the .30-30 easy for new users to handle.
The marlin 94 in .44mag holds about 5 more cartridges than a .30-30 carbine, with a capacity of 9 ctgs in the tube magazine. The .44 has about the same power as the .30-30, but with 9 repeat shots might be a better choice for defense purposes. A .44 mag with 180gr bullets would be a very capable weapon. With 240gr bullets it has lots of power and good accuracy out to 150yds.
Another good choice is the marlin 336 in .35Remington. |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
8/7/2008 10:51 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
This bullet is the primary competition bullet for Service Rifle matches in the USA. Quoting: Lester
I gather reloading is allowed.
I have 90gr bullets in my kit which takes a 1:6.5 twist barrel. If I break down and blow $30 on a new manual I would have ballistic info, but I haven't; so I don't. Quoting: Lester
Ask and ye shall etc.
[link to www.sierrabullets.com]
Torrents
[link to isohunt.com]
This next one you will need to be selective, lots of good info but includes .mid tunes and other stuff.
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
8/7/2008 11:34 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
you can also get the DVD "Shooting in Realistic Environments" Done at the Valhalla Training Center.
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Lester
User ID: 481060
8/8/2008 12:28 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Maybe you have your arms situation all mapped out and taken care of? I hope so!
But what about spare parts?
Brownells.com is about the fastest and most in-depth resource for parts, aside from those you will need to secure from Armalite, DPMS, Knight's; whichever mfr made your AR-10 rifle.
Better figure out where you can get parts and obtain them.
What to buy? Most weapons are well-served if you have these basics:
Spare firing pin,
Firing pin spring
Extractor and extractor spring,
Ejector spring,
Pins for these parts if they are pin retained
Extra stock and scope mounting screws.
Probably also want to have some basic pin punches, gunsmithing hammer and small files to use if you have to maintain your weapons. Seems like my Essential Skills threads had a fairly complete list. Nice to own a spare BOLT for your AR rifle and carry that with your weapon, if an extractor or ejector breaks, in 2-3mins you are back at 100% operational. Anyway, look through that thread, or maybe I can find my orig list. |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
8/8/2008 12:35 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Maybe you have your arms situation all mapped out and taken care of? I hope so!
But what about spare parts?
Brownells.com is about the fastest and most in-depth resource for parts, aside from those you will need to secure from Armalite, DPMS, Knight's; whichever mfr made your AR-10 rifle.
Better figure out where you can get parts and obtain them.
What to buy? Most weapons are well-served if you have these basics:
Spare firing pin,
Firing pin spring
Extractor and extractor spring,
Ejector spring,
Pins for these parts if they are pin retained
Extra stock and scope mounting screws. Quoting: Lester
Perhaps add a spare set of rings and a trigger group if your rifle has a separate trigger assembly. Magazine springs and feed ramp. Note that springs need to be stored "unstressed" for best results.
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
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