| | | Page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 | Survival Guns discussed
| Lester
User ID: 481060
8/8/2008 1:20 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Re: Condensed Thread of Essential Skills for Self-Sufficiency and Comfortable Survival Quote
Got firearms?
Know how to keep them functioning through thick & thin?
No need to keep spares if one goes down, although surely great to have a backup piece, just kinda 'spensive. Here are some common weapons and the parts they are most likely to require from breakage in normal use:
Spare Parts Kits For Common Survivalist Firearms....
Colt 1911 type pistols:
Magazine, extractor, sear, firing pin, disconnector, sear spring, ejector, barrel link pin. grip screw(s), firing pin spring, recoil spring. Nice to have a spare hammer, bushing, maybe a complete pin and spring kit. Wolf's spring kit is very nice value for the money. Maybe you look at replacing your magazine followers with arredondo or pachmayr followers, and put a recoil buffer in your slide system. Give some consideration to a Ciener .22LR conversion unit as they are affordable and make a great training aid and extend usefulness greatly.
Ruger Mk II pistols:
Firing pin, extractor, recoil spring assembly. Nice to improve on factory parts with Volquartson or other aftermarket makers like Clark etc. Good to have spare springs and pins. Good to have a diagram for disassembly etc if you don't have your Ruger manual.
Ruger 10/22 semi-auto rifle:
Firing pin, FP return spring; extractor w/plunger & spring, magazine.
This rifle is capable of being tuned to extraordinary accuracy. Volquartson and others make a wide variety of accessory parts. Nice to have the extended bolt lock and magazine release levers. A picatinny rail gives interchangability to your scope system with other rifles. An aftermarket barrel and stock kit add much to potential accuracy. Very handy with short, heavy barrel and plastic or laminated stock.
Smith & Wesson revolvers:
Hammer nose & rivet, hammer spring, cylinder stop & spring, grip screw, sideplate screw spares, hand & sping. Wolf and other tune-up kits from Cylinder & Slide are very nice and easy to install. Kuhnhausen's manual is especially worthwhile for these handguns because so much of their interanals are/were hand fitted for functioning and there are many tricks to tune and assemble them correctly. S&W at one time sold parts direct.
Marlin 39 lever action .22 rifles:
Firing pin, extractor, ejector & spring, magazine tube complete.
Remington 870 pump shotgun:
Firing pin & return spring; extractor w/plunger & spring, R&L shell stop.
Greatly accessorized, these shotguns have pin sets, spring sets and tuned parts available readily. Ejector assembly and other parts reportedly have very rare incidents of breakage yet maybe you want a spare and the rivets needed to install it?
Winchester 94 lever action rifle:
Firing pin, hammer spring, sear spring, extractor.
Marlin 336 etc:
Firing pin, FP striker & spring; ejector & spring, extractor.
M1a semi-auto rifle:
Firing pin; extractor, spring & plunger; ejector & spring, recoil spring, gas piston; gas valve spring, spindle & pin. Spare magazines.
Ruger Mini-14:
Firing pin; extractor, spring & plunger; ejector & spring, recoil spring, hammer spring, magazine latch spring, trigger guard, gas piston. Spare magazines.
Remington 700 and other bolt rifles:
Firing pin and spring assembly with barrel shroud (for ease of installation), spare set of action screws, magazine spring, extractor with rivet (or extractor w/spring & pin if mauser type bolt). Spare screws for scope base mounts, spare sling swivel studs and qd swivels.
AR-10 & AR-15 rifles:
Firing Pin, bolt takedown pin, spare assembled bolt or entire bolt carrier assy unit, carrier key screws; extractor, o-ring, spring and pin; ejector, spring & pin; gas tube & pin, gas ring set or McFarland ring for AR-10, Pin plunger and spring set for lower receiver, spare recoil spring, buffer and tube w/stock extension if use A2 or other full length stock. Spare gas block or A2 front sight assy (w/sight parts) also a good idea for long functioning potential. Roll pin can cup pin punches are worth investing in for dissembling gas assy parts.
========================================================== =
If you are going to do repairs on your firearms you will require certain special tools. Most beneficial will be a shop manual, and Jerry Kuhnhausen has written THE BEST manuals for select firearms including S&W Revolvers, Colt 1911 pisotls, Remington 870, Mauser Type Rifles, Ruger Revolvers, and M1 Garand and M14 Type Rifles. If you own any of these weapons, and plan to repair or are considering modifications to your guns yourself, YOU WANT THESE! Especially the S&W Revolver book. They are the most complex design and require special tools and knowledge beyond the scope of the other weapons. There are AR-15 and 1911 devoted sites which detail how to build, modify, and construct those weapons. It is a great hobby and many are interested. Lots can be learned there if you have the time and an active internet connection; yet, books are a great resource.
Tools, you will need:
S&W Revolvers will require special cup-pin punches, spring compressor jigs, and other tools to restore proper crane/yoke angles etc. Before you ruin what is still an essentially hand-fitted piece of complex machinery, get Kuhnhausen's book.
General gunsmithing tools should include:
a full range of small pin punches and roll-pin punches from 1/16 up to 5/16 or 3/8",
small tap hammer with brass and nylon faces,
small and med machinist hammer,
Barrel vise and bushings sized for your barrrel diameters,
Hemostats, small vise-grip pliers, small needle nose of various lengths, small wire nippers and clippers,Jeweler's screwdriver set, Full size screwdriver set with interchangeable bits,
Oils, solvents, cleaners, cleaning gear and brushes/patch jigs,
You may need tools to work on the bolt of a specific weapon to enable servicing and cleaning, spring replacement,
A good heavy duty rotating vise, a variety of small vises, PanaVise is nice.
Brownells and Midway catalogs just to see the tool selections. Brownells sells and lists Armorer Kits which are kits with tools to work on every aspect of ONE Particular Weapon. Not like you need a kit for each, many of the tools will overlap; but Brownells has tools no other vendor has and they show you EXACTLY what you need. Probably the finest resource for anyone interested in firearms. The finest customer service and prompt shipping.
AR-10 and AR-15 rifles are the most easily serviced firearms I have ever owned. With a clamshell vice for either, you can pull and install your own barrels with no more than a Strap Wrench. Superb for accessorization and tailormaking to suit your particular accuracy needs.
If you want to find out about what makes an AR capable of better accuracy than any other semi-auto and most bolt rifles, I recommend reading The Competitive AR by Glen Zediker. This book is an analysis of what has made the AR the king of the NRA Service Rifle and HighPower matches. If you would learn how to really shoot, Randolph Constantine has written Modern Highpower Competition which details every aspect of what it takes to shoot competitively and win at 200, 300, and 600yd competitions. Bear in mind that these shooters use IRON SIGHTS, no optics and achieve .5moa accuracy at 600yds or better in order to win. With special ammunition and a tuned rifle/shooter combination the .223 Rifle is superbly capable of any task aside from big game hunting.
There are many weapons and weapon systems out there.
I never met a gun I didn't like...
Yet, the better weapons to own are those that have parts availability and have many aftermarket producers and cusomizers creating an industry. These Weapons are:
1911 Colt type pistol,
Remington 870 shotgun,
Remington 700 bolt rifle,
M1 Garand and M14/M1a type rifles (inl mini-14),
Ruger 10/22 Rifle and MK pistols,
AR-15 and Armalite AR-10 rifles,
Savage centerfire bolt rifles.
To lesser degree these guns are similarly niche weapons:
Glock Pistols,
Marlin 1895 large bore lever rifles,
Ruger rifles and handguns,
Browning P-35 Hi-Power type 9mm pistols,
Steyr Scout and Savage Scout rifles,
Big Bore handguns .454Casull and larger.
If you have not invested in arms yet, or are not committed fully to your choices; I urge you to order the Brownells Catalog and see what weapons are most customized and "popular". Why are the popular? Rugged & proven designs chambered for cartridges that perform and chosen by those who want the benefits that particular arm offers above and beyond the others that are also chambered for the same cartridge.
Winchester model 70 and FN bolt rifles |
| Lester
User ID: 481060
8/8/2008 1:49 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Some other considerations:
Are your rifles zeroed?
Bores cleaned, actions free of gunk and powder residues?
Realize that you need to patch out your bore before firing rounds, to preserve barrels best accuracy.
Best to use stripper clips and stripper guide/spoon to load magazines.
Got a field cleaning kit? GI section cleaning rod can do things, like dislodge a stuck bullet that no other boresnake or rope cleaner can. Not like you want to use it often for cleaning though. Always want a plastic coated cleaning rod with bore guide to preserve best accuracy.
10/40 or 15/50 synthetic motor oils will work in place of LSA/CLP cleaner-lubes. Pretty easy to make your own cleaners. A bottle of hoppes #9 diluted down with Kerosene works very well, and you can use carburetor cleaners as well. There are a number of home recipes on the web; google Ed's Red. Guy uses tranny fluid (10wt oil w/red dye) in his recipe.
Binocular & Spotting scope.
Half the battle is staying out of the fight, unless you are a pro soldier. So, you want the best binos and spotting scope you can afford. Even a cheap pocket monocular or folding binocular you can carry in your shirt pocket ALL THE TIME is a good idea. You want the good optics for constant observation, need to be good so your eyes don't tire. The pocket stuff just needs to be light & tiny. Fujinon m22 binos are a great buy, 7x50mm and rugged. Might find some E. German surplus Zeiss on Ebay. Steiner military/marine are good. Zeiss/Leica/Swarovski are among the best. Even the jap made Redfield are good. I have a small set of olympus that are very high quality and were pretty cheap. Redfield spotting scope, Kowa, Fujinon, Pentax, Bushnell Spacemaster are very good spotters. A good compact tripod is also important. A 45deg eyepiece is very desirable.
Knives. Got a Swiss Army Knife in your pocket right now? Good to have one. Also the Gerber and Leatherwood tools now have socket fixtures that take screwdriver heads or likely 1/4" drive sockets. Having a socket in 7/16" or 1/2" for your scope base mounting bolts and Torx bits for T-10 and T-15 will put you in business to gunsmith much rifle gear. Get special driver bits from Brownells that you may need. |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
8/9/2008 6:27 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Some other considerations:
Knives. Got a Swiss Army Knife in your pocket right now? Good to have one. Also the Gerber and Leatherwood tools now have socket fixtures that take screwdriver heads or likely 1/4" drive sockets. Having a socket in 7/16" or 1/2" for your scope base mounting bolts and Torx bits for T-10 and T-15 will put you in business to gunsmith much rifle gear. Get special driver bits from Brownells that you may need. Quoting: Lester
Don't forget the ratchet handle, I have a Chapmans kit with plenty of spare bits.
Copper fouling can be removed with liquid brass polish and a brush.
Cleaning rods, buy quality and they last a lifetime, not so brushes, have spares in each caliber.
Note: Do not overclean rimfires, clean residues from actions, bore cleaning every 100 rounds or so.
YMMV
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Lester
User ID: 481757
8/9/2008 2:33 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Good tips, Prof.
Want to be sure you don't use stainless steel brushes on any barrel. If you use Sweet's 7.62 or Shooters Choice copper remover, use it strictly according to their recommended time for soaking in the bore. One reason custom barrels are valued so highly is their smoothness, IE they won't cake up with lead and copper deposits, plus they clean faster. Gilding metal/copper from bullets actually "plates" the microscopic pores in barrel steel, if you remove it completely, you begin the process all over again. At some point you need to know when your bore needs to be scrubbed and when it doesn't. Patching out fouling is not the same as removing all the copper from your bore.
If you have a rifle you want to assess for precision shooting; it is best to completely clean all copper from the bore, use Sweet's or SC and use them liberally. Then JB's bore cleaning paste finishing with Kroil or your homemade Kerosene based gun oil. Then, do a Break-In cycle of firing X round(s) and cleaning, etc to assure the bore is copper-coated uniformly. (Google up the Shilen Barrels or McMillan Stocks webpage for Barrel Break-In regimens.) You sure need a Dewey coated rod, bore guide and a number of brushes and proper sized patches to do this job right.
Anyway, with a new or newly restored barrel that has been cleaned prodigiously; it is time to fire groups. Work with a known accuracy load, like those shown in Sierra's manual for competition applications IE (43gr IMR 4064 w/168BTHP match, or 24gr Reloader 15 w/75gr BTHP match). Fire 4 or 5 groups of 5rds each. Best to use the lower corner of a square as your aiming point since you can align reticle in same spot repeatedly. Shooting from a sandbagged position, you should see very good performance from your rifle.
Not to say your rifle will shoot if it is not bedded and barrel free-floated, or if you have a shitty scope mount system. If you barrel is decent, it should group better than ever before. |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
8/10/2008 4:25 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Lots of reloading data here from .17 Bee, to 600 Nitro Express.
[link to www.loaddata.com]
For those who can access ADI/Mulwex powders here is the equivalent chart for burning rates, Approximate Only!
[link to www.adi-limited.com]
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 482389
8/10/2008 2:51 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Tappan's Survival Guns is still THE Basic work for the survivalist. Nothing has changed in the conceptual realm. In 30 yrs time, some innovations, new concepts and improvements BUT nothing revolutionary.
Tappan's Basic Precepts:
Defensive Weapons are specialized, a Sporting/Working weapon can't take the extremes which a Defensive weapon was designed for. Best to have your Defensive weapons and ammunition secured FIRST! You can likely acquire Working weapons later, but if you have to hunt with an "assault rifle", no worries.
Working weapons chambered for same ammunition as your Defensive weapons is a great bonus, especially with rifles.
Battery of weapons enables selection of best tool to do job.
Holsters, scopes, slings, spare magazines, parts are all important.
Tappan stated he was bored by handloading. Of course, Dillon progressive machines were not invented in the mid-70s. Each to their own. I endorse handloading very enthusiastically, the fun is in the results.
In the weaponry choices of Tappan's gallery of stars, funny how both Jeff Cooper and Burt Miller chose .223 rifles for their spouses, .308s for themselves. There were no heavy .223 bullets in those days, and the AR was yet undiscovered as an Accuracy Machine. Bradford Angier, whose plan was to be way up the Peace River, would need only a bolt-action .30-06 and a couple of .22lrs.
Where you are, where you plan to be colors the whole equation.
If you can find a copy of Survival Guns, read it!
No other person has ever looked so purposefully at the issue of firearms and their planned deployment by civilians. Great tips on everything from cleaning eqpt to correct way to hold a pistol, correct sight picture, trigger control and what you would need to survive if traveling on a sailboat, RV, or on a homestead somewhere around Fairbanks, AK.
Some of the weapons have changed. But not the basics.
You always need a good, crisp and manageable trigger pull, good sights which are fast to align, and dependability. Wide range of ammunition selection enables much flexibility.
If there can be one criticism, it is that Tappan was too much of a gun afficionado and was too willing to entertain arguments by his clients who chose prior era technology, IE the Garand as a fighting weapon. Basically, if you are acquiring weapons now, or rounding out your collection, it makes little sense to choose anything that Brownells doesn't offer an in-depth selection of parts and accessories for.
Those weapons are:
Smith & Wesson revolvers and autos,
1911 Colt pattern pistols,
Remington 870 shotguns,
Remington 700 rifles,
AR-15 rifles.
Brownells.com has a very extensive website. Check there for parts for your weapons. Obtain the basic springs, spare firing pin, and other spares today. If you can't find it at Brownells, you probably won't find it. Exceptions include the Beretta/Sako importer, and AR-15 & AR-10 manufacturers. If you want factory spare parts, those guys are very competent and fast to ship, at least Beretta USA for Sako parts and Armalite Inc; these guys are very prompt and their websites have extensive parts listings. For Obsolete parts, try Numrich Arms, which I think is now gunparts.com. For military numbered Real Deal Military parts try Fulton Armory.
Check Brownells for factory parts. If you are heavy into Rugers you will find they are impossible to get spare parts for, so maybe try Numrich. |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
8/10/2008 9:50 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Where you are, where you plan to be colors the whole equation. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 482389
Absolutely correct.
If there can be one criticism, it is that Tappan was too much of a gun afficionado and was too willing to entertain arguments by his clients who chose prior era technology, IE the Garand as a fighting weapon. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 482389
Yet you choose the Colt 1911 over the Beretta 92F.
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 482442
8/10/2008 9:58 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Yet you choose the Colt 1911 over the Beretta 92F. Quoting: Prof_Rabbit
As do I.
I believe the .45 acp round is inherently superior to the 9mm in every way that counts. Accuracy and fight-ending wound potential.
And the 1911 has such a nice trigger, it's easier to shoot well. |
| Lester
User ID: 482389
8/10/2008 10:25 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
A 9mm is probably a pretty good womans purse gun.
There is just no better fight-stopper than the 1911 .45acp. If all your marbles are riding on the event, doesn't it make sense to stop the fight with one hit rather than having to score several more before hostilities end? |
| himself
User ID: 482650
8/10/2008 11:42 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
I guess you'll have to critique your own gear.
...
In my book, all the boys that carp/harp about "reliability" are planning a blaze of glory demise like Holden/Borgnine in The Wild Bunch. Not me. My rifles and ammunition are dependable and I'm not going to be swimming through any swamps on recon missions; neither are you! ...
Hits are what count. ...
Guys talk about tight groups, but can you hit a grapefruit at 200yds using only a sling and aperture sights? Mild recoil makes for fast recovery.
..Ultimately you will live or die with your decisions... Quoting: Anonymous Coward 475435
My Ak's will fire, under ALL conditions, mud, sand, cold are not a problem.
The M-16 will only function when cleaned recently, under ideal conditions.'
I don't plan to swim through mud, nor swamps, but survival is not a scenario you have chosen in advance.
A weapon, reliable under any conditions is a godsend.
My .380 pistols will hit anything I point at out to about 25 yards.
Beyond that, I can duck and dodge and eventually win out.
Been there, done that.
My S&W .22lr semi-auto pistol against the armed robber's .357 Colt Trooper.
I am still here posting. He is just a name on a police file and a tombstone, and his hand cannon is in a locked box under my bed.
First to fire?
NO!
First to hit target with effect!
Determines who survives.
Been there done that
Always obeying the law, is why I am still free and legally armed. |
| himself
User ID: 482650
8/10/2008 11:56 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Yet you choose the Colt 1911 over the Beretta 92F.
As do I.
I believe the .45 acp round is inherently superior to the 9mm in every way that counts. Accuracy and fight-ending wound potential.
And the 1911 has such a nice trigger, it's easier to shoot well. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 482442
We disagree.
John Browning designed the COLT .45 SAA auto
and also, later and better, designed the 9mm Browning Hi-Power
He made a judgement, his first .45 was inadequate and made a better later 9mm design.
I prefer the single action Browning HiPower over the double action copies/adaptations.
Even the US military has gone over to the superior 9mm ammo
You can only kill someone so dead.
Beyond that it is just BS
My .380's are loaded to 9mm levels with PSP hollow points.
Can't get better than that:
Hit your target without excessive recoil...
On target to 25 yards without aiming...
Low recoil...
Rifles?
.22lr for hunting/survival
.22/.410shotgun for both
Bigger calibers and more power?
When you have hundreds of yards to retreat after firing...yes!
Sudden need to instantly shoot or be shot, and survive?
Handgun training and reflexes wins over all else.
been there done that, still alive and posting
Law abiding means posting from home and not from a jail or prison.
IMHO/Obey the law above all else but survival. |
| Lester
User ID: 482389
8/11/2008 12:33 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Actually himself, survivalism is very much about "choosing your scenario".
There is much confusion on this matter.
A survivalist sees and anticipates societal breakdown, monetary collapse, or war of a civil or strategic nuclear exchange. In response to the scenarios which concern the survivalist, he/she makes their plans surrounding mitigation of exposure to the threats they envision.
The Rogue River valley area of Oregon was/is a survivalist destination because it is out of fallout patterns and was somewhat remote and undeveloped in the 70s. The area from Eagle Pass Tx, east to the West of San Antonio and Austin is a similar fallout free zone. Those are the two largest areas of their type in the continental USA. The survivalist also relocates to be away from the urban/suburban chaos that many expect.
So, conditions determine your weapons selection.
What doesn't the AK-47 do well? There is a long list.
-Minimal power round.
-poor trajectory,
-inability to reload steel or Berdan primed cases,
-poor accuracy at any distance,
-.310 rather than .308 bullet diameter,
-limited ammunition variety,
-jakeleg scope mounting system,
Sure, having an AK is better than a dull spear; but...
I have no use for any weapon chambered for 7.62x39 or 9mmPara. You choose what you want and as Bob Seger said, "I raise my whiskey glass and give you a toast!" Cheers to you and yours! |
| Enigma
User ID: 478572
8/11/2008 12:44 AM
 | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
I have a Taurus PT100 knockoff of the Berreta... it's in .40 s&w and it's a great shooting pistol. Very accurate and smooth.
is it better than my 1911 Combat Commander? certainly holds more rounds...
they all work... I've got a glock 17 in 9mm with built in laser that is a smooth gun and has ALWYS gone bang. Never ONCE had a misfire or hang...
as well my HK P7 M8 is a fine FINE FINE pistol... but they are ALL pistols and not much good past 50 yards...
My AK and SKS have always gone bang, and I've killed a few pigs with the AK out to about 100 yards... Open sights are pretty tough after that.
what gun, depends on where you are and what you are trying to shoot...
having a great pistol or AK is great but not going to do you much good on the tundra hunting Caribou... or deer in Texas for that matter...
so use what you have and make sure you have plenty of boolits...
as a gun without ammo is useless and I would much rather be swinging a sling with some rocks in it or charging them with a large pike pole and hatchet...
"knowing and not DOING, is like NOT KNOWING at all" |
| himself
User ID: 482692
8/11/2008 12:51 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Actually himself, survivalism is very much about "choosing your scenario".
There is much confusion on this matter.
...
So, conditions determine your weapons selection. Quoting: Lester
Scenario is not chosen by you or me, unless we are in a film studio.
My weapons selection is what I can carry concealed and readily available...
In the real world
where criminals attack without logic nor warning...
I have depended on my instant response to stay alive.
Have you?
Conditions have determined I am always armed (28yrs so far)
and being armed has kept me alive many times.
There is not confusion that I have only used a weapon as a last resort.
Nor that I have always obeyed the State's gun laws and only used deadly force as a last result.
That obedience to law has kept me out of jail/prison.
Those guys who write have not lived with guns making the difference between living and dying.
I have.
They are conservatives and have never had conservatives try to shoot them for questioning Republicans.
I have.
Liberals do not shoot those they disagree with.
Conservatives sometimes do.
Been there done that. Still there. Still not someone anyone wants to point a gun at.
Unless they have a graveyard plot and tombstone paid for. |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
8/11/2008 10:50 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
My .380's are loaded to 9mm levels with PSP hollow points.
Can't get better than that:
Hit your target without excessive recoil...
On target to 25 yards without aiming...
Low recoil... Quoting: himself
The need to load your .380 to 9mm levels shows you consider the .380 is inadequate, the 9mm can be loaded hotter again and +P ammo is available. Again the 9mm Winchester Silvertip has a good record for putting down felons.
The .22lr is designed as a small game cartridge, and it has worked well in that role for over a hundred years, yes if you shoot someone at point blank range in the right place they will die, however there are people living with .22 bullets in their heads.
IMHO/Obey the law above all else but survival. Quoting: himself
A gun is only as good as the user, within reason, a .22lr is not useful on deer at 150 yards.
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Lester
User ID: 483027
8/11/2008 8:49 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Just an FYI:
In event of Martial Law; no more weapon or ammunition sales. In fact, no "non-essential personnel" allowed on the streets at all.
Some cities have halted sales of weapons and ammunition during times of civil strife.
What I am getting at: Time to buy what you intend to have in the way of weapons and ammunition or maybe never be able to obtain it at all....
It is a great idea to carry extra ammunition in your spare magazines or speed-loaders. Zip Loc baggies, esp the freezer type are good for maximizing space and keeping water out. You might look for silica gel pouches in vitamin jars and other products. Often you can heat these at low temp and dry them out to use again. Makes a great addition to a baggie of ammo.
Probably don't need to say this, but.... NEVER LUBRICATE AMMUNITION WITH WD40 OR PENETRATING OIL. DON'T LUBE IT AT ALL!
Unless you are storing a weapon, don't leave oil in the bore. Patch out any oil before you shoot the weapon for best results. |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
8/11/2008 10:27 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Just an FYI:
What I am getting at: Time to buy what you intend to have in the way of weapons and ammunition or maybe never be able to obtain it at all.... Quoting: Lester
And pay in cash, with a preference to states that don't require lots of ID. Bit more difficult for handguns I guess.
Probably don't need to say this, but.... NEVER LUBRICATE AMMUNITION WITH WD40 OR PENETRATING OIL. DON'T LUBE IT AT ALL! Quoting: Lester
Some people may not be aware that penetrating oils will deactivate primers.
Unless you are storing a weapon, don't leave oil in the bore. Patch out any oil before you shoot the weapon for best results. Quoting: Lester
For extreme storage of ammunition dip in wax and store in cool dry environment, (clean before using) or place in sealed ammo cans with a small piece of dry ice, close when the dry ice vapors flow out of the box.
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Lester
User ID: 483550
8/12/2008 11:19 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Prof,
That wax coating idea, for longterm storage of ammunition; Where did you come across that one? Maybe I misread it? Might make sense if you shrinkwrapped a box of cartridges or plastic wrapped a magazine and then dipped it in wax or whatever, but paraffin does have petroleum in it, gotta be detrimental. Gotta say that is a zany idea. |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
8/13/2008 6:34 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Prof,
That wax coating idea, for longterm storage of ammunition; Where did you come across that one? Maybe I misread it? Might make sense if you shrinkwrapped a box of cartridges or plastic wrapped a magazine and then dipped it in wax or whatever, but paraffin does have petroleum in it, gotta be detrimental. Gotta say that is a zany idea. Quoting: Lester
Sorry, NOT paraffin, real live beeswax! and note it's for extreme long term storage, ancient civilizations used both beeswax and pitch for sealing that has lasted thousands of years, beeswax melts at a mere 45 degrees (C), a bucket of hot water will melt the wax and the wax will float on top, cartridges can be simply dried and the wax reused for other tasks.
It's not so much a "zany" idea, just an old one that lost the race with grease and oils.
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Lester
User ID: 484124
8/13/2008 12:25 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Wax is not a simple material to remove from metal.
Any idea what beeswax actually costs?
Enough to coat a round of ammo will cost about as much as the round itself, and that's if you purchase direct from a beekeeper. Just calling this a rather preposterous idea, and being nice about it. |
| Evil Twin
User ID: 484121
8/13/2008 12:37 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
John Browning designed the COLT .45 SAA auto Quoting: himself
John Browning designed the M1911, which is an entirely different firearm than the Colt SAA (Single Action Army).
The M1911 is a semi-automatic, the SAA is a single action revolver usually chambered for .45 Colt, which is different than the .45 acp. |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
8/14/2008 4:26 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Wax is not a simple material to remove from metal.
Any idea what beeswax actually costs?
Enough to coat a round of ammo will cost about as much as the round itself, and that's if you purchase direct from a beekeeper. Just calling this a rather preposterous idea, and being nice about it. Quoting: Lester
Hey that's ok, now tell me your proposal for long term storage of ammunition, start at 100 years and go from there.
quote
A wax tablet (tabula) is a tablet made of wood and covered with a layer of wax. It was used as a reusable and portable writing surface in Antiquity and throughout the Middle Ages. Medieval wax tablet books are on display in several European museums.
end quote
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Lester
User ID: 492663
8/28/2008 3:59 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Must've missed this one.
Basically, modern non-corrosive ammunition will store for 50-75 yrs if kept dry and in low-humidity, moderate temperature environment. No need to encase it in wax. Maybe you could encase the storage crate in wax, if wax is important to use. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 508492
9/22/2008 6:18 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Yet you choose the Colt 1911 over the Beretta 92F.
As do I.
I believe the .45 acp round is inherently superior to the 9mm in every way that counts. Accuracy and fight-ending wound potential.
And the 1911 has such a nice trigger, it's easier to shoot well. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 482442
you like this then.. plus a Accessory that makes the 1911 a rifle.
IMAGE ( [link to i362.photobucket.com] )
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| Nailer45
User ID: 508492
9/22/2008 6:21 PM | | Lester
User ID: 286200
9/22/2008 6:43 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
If you want a rifle, get a rifle.
Can't see much use for a .45acp much beyond 25yds. Can you hit a 18"x24" (centermass) target at greater distance, probably with no trouble; but the acp is not a rifle.
Gizmos are for suckers. Lots of fun to play with, I'm sure, but there's always the Marlin Camp Carbine, if they still make them anymore...
From my perspective, the .223 when loaded with 68/69 or 75/77 grain match bullets is a decent performer for everything but big game hunting. If you only had an AR-15, you could for sure take an elk or even a moose. 30rds will kill anything. But you have to know how to hunt and track.
A .308 is all-around excellent.
The .45acp, .44mag/sp and .454C/.45Colt are the handgun ctgs to choose for reliable stopping power.
Some would say, "Lester, you disregard the 9mmP but go with the 5.56mm???" Yes! Because the AR is at least a 250-350yd proposition, from a carbine; out to 500 with a scope and 20" barrel! The 9mm requires multiple hits for certainty and at close range. The .45acp does the work with one centermass hit.
The .44mag in my book is properly loaded with a 240-270gr bullet at med velocity so you can fire double-action without severe recoil and muzzleblast. A 4" S&W N frame is the ticket for this. Concealable and powerful. The .454Casull is a rifle you carry on your hip or across your chest with a scope. Firing a 340gr bullet with superb accuracy and penetration, it is like a carbine. Load it with Starline .45Colt brass for mild use or buy factory .45Colts. A 250gr bullet will take any animal alive.
A proper selection of handguns and rifles will enable the user to respond with confidence in every situation.
Weapons aren't the primary tool of the survivalist, but having the capability to fulfill the missions envisioned is key. |
| Nailer45
User ID: 508492
9/22/2008 6:44 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
getting close to the time to lock and load folks.. Banks falling like domino's and the tyrant government wanting to steal $700 Billion out of our pockets to save crooked, corrupted bankers and politicians.. |
| 'self
User ID: 508610
9/22/2008 6:56 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
My .380's are loaded to 9mm levels with PSP hollow points.
Can't get better than that:
Hit your target without excessive recoil...
On target to 25 yards without aiming...
Low recoil...
The need to load your .380 to 9mm levels shows you consider the .380 is inadequate, the 9mm can be loaded hotter again and +P ammo is available. Again the 9mm Winchester Silvertip has a good record for putting down felons.
The .22lr is designed as a small game cartridge, and it has worked well in that role for over a hundred years, yes if you shoot someone at point blank range in the right place they will die, however there are people living with .22 bullets in their heads.
IMHO/Obey the law above all else but survival.
A gun is only as good as the user, within reason, a .22lr is not useful on deer at 150 yards. Quoting: Prof_Rabbit
Years back, nearly a dozen bighorn sheep skeletons were found. Some unknown meat hunter had shot each once with a .22.
A trained marksman with a .22 is more deadly than a chimpanzee with a machinegun.
Loading a concealable handgun to highest controllable performance is just an intelligent choice.
My concealable 9mms are still much bigger buldier and heavier than my PC-AT .380s.
I even quit carrying my .380 stainless backup pistols because the PC-At is so much lighter and slimmer.
Buying and trying to carry too big and too heavy a gun means you may be cauhgt without it when you need it most.
The tale of the Beitish Colonel whose .445 Weblry revolver was across the room beside a window when the Xulu warrior leaped through that window is a classic example of a gun too big and heavy to carry 24/7
One of my NAA .22 derringers is even in my swimsuit key pocket when I swim.
People have been robbed and or killed at the beach.
Survival scenarios must include all the time everyplace you go or they are just so much "land of OZ" fiction.
I've been head shot with a .32 and have the scar on my forehead still after 41 years. Didn't even penetrate my skull, but knocked me out.
Re >.45 SAA auto<
I hit the A key twice.
The 1911 is a .45 caliber Single Action automatic.
I mistakenly assumed knowledgable gunners would know what I meant without nitpicking the extra A, so I didn't edit.
nice gun.
The one I have was in the hand of a drunken ex Marine.
I grabbed his forearm and jammed my other hand against the barrel. He was unable to fire as I took his gun. In one of my locked boxes along with other guns people, usually drunks, have waved or fired at me. (cops give them to me after the trial usually)
Before paint guns, we loaded wax bullets to hunt each other down and keep our skills honed.
Nothing like a two day duel in the desert to make you feel alive. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 508610
9/22/2008 7:01 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
I shouldn't do touch typing.
"buldier" = bulkier and other minor mistakes
getting close to the time to lock and load folks.. Banks falling like domino's and the tyrant government wanting to steal $700 Billion out of our pockets to save crooked, corrupted bankers and politicians.. Quoting: Nailer45
Getting close to time for those race riots Obama warned us about also.
google:
"quiet riot" + Obama |
| Nailer45
User ID: 508492
9/22/2008 7:09 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
If you want a rifle, get a rifle.
Can't see much use for a .45acp much beyond 25yds. Can you hit a 18"x24" (centermass) target at greater distance, probably with no trouble; but the acp is not a rifle.
Gizmos are for suckers. Lots of fun to play with, I'm sure, but there's always the Marlin Camp Carbine, if they still make them anymore...
From my perspective, the .223 when loaded with 68/69 or 75/77 grain match bullets is a decent performer for everything but big game hunting. If you only had an AR-15, you could for sure take an elk or even a moose. 30rds will kill anything. But you have to know how to hunt and track.
A .308 is all-around excellent.
The .45acp, .44mag/sp and .454C/.45Colt are the handgun ctgs to choose for reliable stopping power.
Some would say, "Lester, you disregard the 9mmP but go with the 5.56mm???" Yes! Because the AR is at least a 250-350yd proposition, from a carbine; out to 500 with a scope and 20" barrel! The 9mm requires multiple hits for certainty and at close range. The .45acp does the work with one centermass hit.
The .44mag in my book is properly loaded with a 240-270gr bullet at med velocity so you can fire double-action without severe recoil and muzzleblast. A 4" S&W N frame is the ticket for this. Concealable and powerful. The .454Casull is a rifle you carry on your hip or across your chest with a scope. Firing a 340gr bullet with superb accuracy and penetration, it is like a carbine. Load it with Starline .45Colt brass for mild use or buy factory .45Colts. A 250gr bullet will take any animal alive.
A proper selection of handguns and rifles will enable the user to respond with confidence in every situation.
Weapons aren't the primary tool of the survivalist, but having the capability to fulfill the missions envisioned is key. Quoting: Lester
yes I have some rifles..here is a 303 brit and my SKS. other rifles hidden.
[link to i362.photobucket.com]
[link to i362.photobucket.com] |
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