| | | Page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 | Survival Guns discussed
| Lester
User ID: 509749
9/24/2008 2:24 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Dude,
"Re >.45 SAA auto<
I hit the A key twice.
The 1911 is a .45 caliber Single Action automatic.
I mistakenly assumed knowledgable gunners would know what I meant without nitpicking the extra A, so I didn't edit."
Maybe you're a foreigner?
There is the .45Colt which was originally chambered in the Single Action Army Colt model P of 1873, also chambered in S&W and Colt double action hanguns. Then there is the .45ACP Automatic Colt Pistol which was developed for the 1911 Colt, the so-called Colt .45 Automatic Pistol. There is also the Colt .38ACP which may/may not be the Super.
Whatever makes you happy.
It is your funeral that you are hoping to put off attending. |
| Evil Twin  
Senior Forum Moderator
User ID: 509840
9/24/2008 2:31 PM
 | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
That's one purty Enfield! |
| Nailer45
User ID: 509723
9/24/2008 2:40 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
thanks .. finally a person who knows their weapons. |
| Evil Twin
Senior Forum Moderator
User ID: 509840
9/24/2008 2:53 PM
| | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
I'm a sucker for milsurps! |
| Nailer45
User ID: 509723
9/24/2008 2:57 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
you would love a collection one of my cohorts has ..
Mint M1 garande, and some other 100+ weapons. He is well prepped and if his house ever caught fire it would sound like a war zone when over 20,000 rounds started exploding.. |
| Evil Twin
Senior Forum Moderator
User ID: 509840
9/24/2008 3:09 PM
| | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
you would love a collection one of my cohorts has ..
Mint M1 garande, and some other 100+ weapons. He is well prepped and if his house ever caught fire it would sound like a war zone when over 20,000 rounds started exploding.. Quoting: Nailer45
I hope to order a Garand from CMP in two weeks, if the world lasts that long, lol. |
| Nailer45
User ID: 509723
9/24/2008 3:12 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
you would love a collection one of my cohorts has ..
Mint M1 garande, and some other 100+ weapons. He is well prepped and if his house ever caught fire it would sound like a war zone when over 20,000 rounds started exploding..
I hope to order a Garand from CMP in two weeks, if the world lasts that long, lol. Quoting: Evil Twin
he bought his new in 1980 at a cost of $150.00 .. god I wish I had bought one then also.. I see them going now between $600-$1400 |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 509749
9/24/2008 3:25 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
The previous reply did not deal with the .45saa auto dude's assertion about max-power loads in small frame handguns.
There is a lot of discussion about that practice.
I say, if you have access to an armorer/gunsmith who can rebuild the piece on a regular basis, then your bases are covered. BUT>>>...
This thread is centered on "survival guns".
Where There Is No Doctor
There is likely to be no gunsmith...
You want to shoot +P+ in your aluminum framed S&W J model? Be My Guest! Just don't be surprised when the gun craps out on you or blows its topstrap.
The Survivalist is not going to punish his weaponry by routinely running Max Loads through them. Robert Ruark wrote Use Enough Gun... Good advice.
Relying on a .32acp keltec or a .25 Beretta jetfire or some other tiny .22mag revolver might work for you when you need a gat for assassination. Not the survivalists concern.
Use Enough Gun.
This means a .44 or .45 Caliber. If you want to go 10mm, it is your funeral. If you want to go 9mm, allthemoreso...
The survivalist is not holding down the fort in a suburban subdivision. A concealment weapon is not a main concern, unless it is a backup. A .45acp 1911 type pistol will do the job. Likely, with one round.
If your premises are setup so that the "surprise visit" is not available to your attacker(s), unless they are an internal threat, why handicap yourself with a small, lightweight bullet?
Use Enough Gun.
Use a damn rifle unless you can't.
Takes 5 seconds to change from a 14"/16" AR-15 upper to a 20" barreled rifle upper. A carbine is almost as easy to bring on target as a pistol, indoors. Yet, the carbine or rifle will keep the fight well out of pistol range. If you are using 75gr bullets in your AR-15, the fight will be out of AK-47 (7.62x39) range also.
That is where you want your fight, where your enemy can't effectively strike you.
Loading a small caliber weapon "hot" to make up for lack of bullet mass is a "perfect world" solution.
Ever shoot a small-barreled .357mag with max/hotloaded 125jhps? Unless you have an N frame smith or maybe a Python, the hangun is tough to control and has muzzleblast like a .300win mag. All this to be equal to the .45acp 230gr.
That same J/titanium or K fram 19/66 is not going to stand up to the continual battering. Forcing cone on the barrel is a problematic concern. Then you have the hand and ratchet which hold the cylinder stop etc. Got spare parts? Got the Kuhnhausen shop manual and all the special S&W tools? Think a Ruger GP100 is much better?
Why risk your weapon?
Buy a .44 or .45 and be SURE!
The last thing you want is to break your weapon when you have no resupply.
For revolvers, a .44magnum loaded with med-velocity handloads or .44specials will function beautifully for many years. Hit somebody with a 240gr bullet at 950-1200fps and their fight is over. You can shoot double-action very easily with med-vel loads. Maybe you load some .44 round lead balls for rabbits and squirrels an such? No meat destruction, big hole, easy to follow blood track. Recoils like a .22magnum.
For a self-defense pistol the .45acp has no peer. If you want hot, look at the .45 Super. Look at realguns.com and see Joe's articles on the Super. If you own a Colt, Kimber, Springfield 1911 gun all you need is a firing pin and recoil spring set, plus the Starline cases. I wouldn't run +P ammo without a 20lb recoil spring. Brownells carries Wolf and other spring kits.
If you are intent on relying upon the .357magnum, you really need a Full Frame magnum pistol to handle the high pressure loads. S&W N frames include the model 28 Highway Patrolman and the model 27 Super Deluxe original .357 Magnum. Dan Wesson also made a great heavy frame .357mag, including the .357 Maximum. The Colt Python is likely marginal for such use, being a target pistol and medium frame, but Colt did once make the Trooper model.
It is my assertion that the survivalist needs tools that are job specific and over-built. If you intend to shoot max-loads constantly in your S&W 29 or 629, do yourself a favor and sell that gun and get a Ruger Super Redhawk, The SRH is way superior for heavy loads over the N frame. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 251826
9/26/2008 1:05 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Probably a Ruger Mk II/III .22lr pistol, esp the 6" target barrel model, is the best value in a "survival gun".
Not going to win many gunfights with one, but if you have brains, you'll do all you can to avoid the fighting.
Surviving, isn't the same as being a survivalist. The survivalist locates to be OUT of the line of fire and not in the midst of the chaoes and fleeing masses.
Anyone not understanding that premise has concerns that are out of the realm of consideration here. Probably need an m-60 or 249 and a flamethrower, plus claymores; if you haven't chosen your location carefully. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 476073
9/29/2008 12:36 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
So to anyone adept with guns, I have a few questions.
1 - I just purchased a Remington 870 shotgun and about 120 buckshot 2.75" shells. What is a good goal for a stockpile of ammunition?
2 - Does anyone have a suppressor for their Ruger 10/22? Are they worth the investment? I've been reading the web about something called 'fake suppressors'. Anyone have a take on these?
Any info greatly appreciated. |
| Lester
User ID: 513422
9/29/2008 3:22 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
"fake suppressors"???
All I can say is don't screw with the exit characteristics of your bullets. If you need a suppressor, do the the ATF paperwork and get one that works. Cost you about $1000 when all is said/done/taxes pd.
Probably a good time to have all your cleaning gear, spare parts, diagrams, and gunsmithing tools in place.
If you are still looking for info, check the earlier pages of this thread. |
| Lester
User ID: 325428
10/25/2008 4:53 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Saw the new Premier Reticles sniperscope on their website today. Looks to be miles ahead of any S&B or US Optics, and competitively priced.
Premier Reticles worked closely with the Marine Corps and was the source on S&B Marine scopes; but they have improved the game tremendously.
see premierreticles.com for more details.
This instrument has ALL the features and is totally mil-rad in adjustment, so no conversions to jack with. Even has a auto battery turnoff after 6hrs. Premier is one of the oldest names in the precision shooting game. AT $2700, a damn good value for the pro sniper or wannabe. |
| Lester
User ID: 325428
10/26/2008 1:07 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Speaking of scopes....
I own some very nice ones. Yet, some of the others I have are not very expensive, but seem to do a helluva job.
An old 6x 42mm IOR Bucuresti that I got on Ebay has click turrets and lots of movement. Very low profile, has the quick Euro style 3 heavy post reticle, and very good lowlight visibility. The turrets also have over 85 moa of movement which is outstanding.
Another Ebay find was a Simmons Atec 2.8-10x 44mm with Illum reticle. No parallax adjustment, but the turrets have about 80 moa of movement and the 2032 battery lasts forever. The optics are really excellent and the scope is rugged. For under $100 it is superb.
I also got a 6x Springfield Tactical on Ebay and it also has about 65 moa of turret movement, good optics, excellent turrets and that special reticle which is tailored to the .308 Winchester 168gr. Great for fast hold-offs and shows zero to 700yds.
Another Ebay deal was the old-style Nikon 4-14x Buckmaster w/adj objective parallax. Great optics, the turrets track true and this one was about $125. Very comparable to Leupold Vari-X III which would run about $350 to $425 on Ebay.
The best deal I have found for scope rings are Tactical Precision Systems aluminum rings. Buy em from Brownells if you have a business, tell them and get your wholesale discount. $35 for aluminum and $55 for steel, the rings are excellent, hold zero and you can get 3 sets for the price of one Badger Ord set. Warne slotted tactical bases are excellent value for the money. Can't forget the Burris Signature and Zee rings for value either. The Signature Zee rings can be adjusted/canted if you don't have a longrange base. Every bit of gain helps and the Zee design doesn't leave ring marks due to the insert design.
A scope on your handgun can enable a lot of longrange potential. The Ruger Super Redhawk comes with built in ring mounts, but the Wiegand picatinny rail is even nicer. The picatinny or weaver slotted rail allows sharing scopes between weapons. Probably don't always need a scope on your handgun, but if you have a .22 Target pistol, the benefits are very strong. A good Ruger or S&W target pistol becomes a 75yd or longer proposition with a 4x or greater magnification scope. With quick detach rings, the scope can ride in your backpack or musette bag until you need it. Good rings will hold zero. |
| Lester
User ID: 535508
10/26/2008 3:53 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Slings. Know how to use one? They'll do lots more than just carry your rifle or shotgun.
Probably most versatile is the Military 2pc sling. You rig one of these with the short section at the bottom so you can detach the sling from the buttstock and wrap it entirely around your arm for stability. The frogs, those brass hook doodads go on the inside of your sling for best adjustment while you are slinging up. The keepers are there to snug your sling tight against your arm, about mid-bicep above the elbow, and keep things from moving. Probably the 1.25" sling is most versatile. Length depends on your height and arm length, but usually about 44" to 52" works.
A hasty sling also gives you some stability. This is a carrry strap (or mil sling) which is just loose enough to give some tension and steadiness within a second or two of dismounting the rifle from your carry position or shoulder. Basically, this mode of carry involves putting your forearm into the sling, and back around the strap, having enough tension when the rifle is at your shoulder to steady your sights for decent offhand delivery of the shot.
The Williams-carry is maybe the fastest way to deploy a hasty sling. In this mode, the rifle is carried barrel down on the offside shoulder, the buttstock comes over to your shoulder as your forearm hand goes through the stock. By the time the rifle is at your shoulder, you are looped up and steady.
Some shooters like a cuff on their sling and may even carry their weapon, cuffed up. Cuff can be detached from the sling so you can wear it and detach the rifle at any time.
There are lots of tactical sling designs out there. Haven't used one of these, since I don't go "patrolling" around with an AR across my chest or an M4 dangling at my side. Probably a great item for those who will need to do such things. Kinda like pistol holsters that are mid-thigh, not in my hierarchy of needs.
One of my favorite slings is the VietNam era web sling with rear clip and forward quick release. These are great, lightweight, hold tension without slipping unlike the nylon ones, and durable. These have a slider buckle so no keepers to jack with, cheap too, usually about $10 w/hardware.
You can make your own slings. 1.25 or 1.5 inch nylon webbing and a variety of poly fasteners enable you to design whatever you want. JoAnn's or REI sell this stuff, and your local full-service hardware store might too. If you have QD swivel studs on your stock, very easy to rig a sling from nylon strapping, just get a couple of metal slides or get as fancy as you like. Pretty easy to fasten a strap to a QD swivel, just sew a loop using dental floss around one end and put a tensioning slide in and sew the other end to it; with swivel placed inside the loop of course. Best to lay these things out and even use a HD safety pin to be sure they function as you like before sewing.
Brownells makes/contracts for some of the finest slings going. Their competition sling is great and the fast adjusting Latigo model is nice for sporting rifles. Turner Saddlery is supposed to make the finest military compettition sling going, but there is usually a wait time for those.
There is a great deal you can do if you have some USGI parachute cord. Easy to rig fastening points for a nylong gun-suspension system. If you checkout AR15.com in the ar15 community section, you can find threads about Israeli AR mods and their adaptation of a heavy-duty machine gun sling for use with AR rifles. Pretty neat rigs. There is an Israeli company who sells these ready to go.
Uncle Mike's makes some decent products. I have used the nylon Supersling which comes with 1.25" QD swivels so for about $15 is a pretty good deal. The swivels cost $12 on their own. I got a couple of padded slings in gun trades over the years. These are like the cobra slings, but are like a thick sleeping bag pad, neoprene and pretty spongy. Pretty versatile and comfortable, the neoprene doesn't slip on nylon or goretex gear like leather or nylon. Really good to rig it reversed if you use Williams Carry.
If you have any pretensions about shooting accurately, you had better have a good sling on your rifle and know how to use it. Can't always find a decent position for your Harris Bipod, and if you are in grassland or thick underbrush, sling is the only way to go.
Cheers! |
| salatheel
User ID: 272356
10/26/2008 4:14 PM
 | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
FBI TEST INFO.
The Results
Although penetration and wound size govern handgun wounding effectiveness, penetration is the more critical element. Therefore, a minimum standard of 12" of penetration in the gelatin was established. The following penetration results indicate the number and percentage of rounds in each caliber that met or exceeded the 12" minimum:
10mm - 39 shots out of 40 (97.5%) .45 - 37 shots out of 40 (92.5%) 9mm - 27 shots out of 40 (67.5%)
As a point of reference, the standard issue .38 Special, 158 grain lead hollowpoint round was fired through the battery of tests. Although the .38 was not a "test" round, and therefore not fired under the same strict test controls, the penetration performance was similar to that of the 9mm, producing acceptable penetration 67.5% of the time.
It should be noted that no maximum penetration standard was established. This reflects the judgment that underpenetration of a handgun bullet presents a far greater risk to the law enforcement officer than overpenetration does to an innocent bystander. Considering that approximately 80% of the rounds fired by law enforcement officers engaged in violent encounters do not strike the intended targets, it was deemed somewhat unrealistic to attach too much significance to the potential risks of overpenetration on the part of those that do. Nevertheless, in assessing the potential volume of wounds created by the test bullets, greater attention was given to the potential tissue displaced up to a depth of 18". For practical purposes, penetration beyond that range would most likely carry the bullet outside the body.
Averaging the volumetric results over all eight test events, the 10mm and .45 displaced similar volumes of tissue within the desirable penetration range of 18"-4.11 and 4.22 cubic inches respectively-©well beyond that displaced by the 9mm and .38-ªwhich respectively measured 2.82 and 2.16 cubic inches.
As an additional consideration, the 10mm was by far the most accurate round tested, consistently providing one hole 10©shot groups at 25 yards of less than an inch (0.77" average) with both handloaded and factory ammunition built to FBI specifications. By contrast, the 9mm averaged 2.3" and the .45 averaged 2".
CONCLUSION
The conclusion was obvious. The best performing round within the parameters of the FBI's test protocol was the 10mm. Accordingly, the Director of the FBI approved the recommendation that the new 10mm cartridge be adopted as the standard caliber for a new FBI pistol, and that the new pistol be procured in sufficient quantities to replace existing revolvers.
The tests that led to this decision by the FBI are available, on request, to interested law enforcement agencies. Moreover, ammunition testing will continue, and extend to other calibers and bullets available for law enforcement use. As additional test results are compiled, quarterly updates will be automatically mailed to recipients of the original test report. Requests for the test report entitled "Ammunition Test Results" should be mailed to :
Firearms Training Unit
FBI Academy
Quantico, VA 22135
FBI Bullet Performance Criteria
1. PENETRATION
a. Minimum Acceptable-12
b. Maximum Desirable-18
2. SIZE OF THE WOUND (Volume)
a. Frontal Area of Bullet
b. Depth of Penetration
FBI Standardized Ammunition Tests
Test 1 - Bare Gelatin @ 10 feet
Test 2 - Heavy Clothing @ 10 feet
Test 3 - 20 gauge Steel @ 10 feet
Test 4 - Wallboard @ 10 feet
Test 5 - Plywood @ 10 feet
Test 6 - Auto Windshield Glass @ 10 feet
Test 7 - Light Clothing @ 20 yards
Test 8 - Auto Glass @ 20 yards
To the best of our knowledge, the text on this page may be freely reproduced and distributed |
| Lester
User ID: 551716
11/15/2008 12:52 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Whatever semi-auto pistol for self-defense you are able to find will be better than nothing.
What works best for self-defense is a big diameter, heavy, flat-nosed slug operating at 800fps or greater. If you can shoot a 4" .44magnum with 300gr grizzly loads with the accuracy of a target shooter delivering a cylinder of .38sp mild wadcutters, then use it. I can't. I don't need to. I can load a 240gr flat nose slug at about 1000fps and be entirely confident, Unless I am sleeping out on a game trail in Alaska. Then I can load the heaviest max-loads I can find. Yet human beings are not 700lb 9ft tall bears...
If you want to cite "statistics", be my guest, but when you need to rely on data versus experience, it leaves a lot to be desired.
In the last 10 days Americans have really put the pedal to the metal at the Nation's firearms vendors. Reportedly, most desirable weaponry in major metro areas is sold out or very hard to find. Premium prices are likely. Ammunition is hardly available for .223, .308, 12ga 00buckshot and other ctgs may be in short supply.
Yesterday, the New Administration's plan to reintroduce the assault weapons ban was brought to light.
You had better scramble to get what you need NOW!
Gunbroker.com, GunsAmerica.com, and the NRA's own auctionarms.com are good resources for finding items that may be in short supply.
On Nov 5th, Rock River Arms, a large and very highly regarded AR-15 manufacturer, reported their vendors had ordered all their production for the next 120 days.
Other manufacturers are in similar situations.
If you can't find a rifle, but can find parts, magazines, scope mounts, Ammunition and other ancillary gear or supplies; buy it. If nothing else, these will be great for trade/barter.
Better get what you can NOW, tomorrow might be too late! |
| Enigma
User ID: 545562
11/15/2008 1:05 PM
 | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Probably true... I ordered my mags for my stuff from CTD...
I'm focusing on reloading gear now, primers, bullets, resizers, tumblers..
went out to the barn this week and dug out all my saved brass from over the years...
gonna start sorting and packaging in plastic bags...
Probably will go buy some more primers and powder today at the gun shop...
"knowing and not DOING, is like NOT KNOWING at all" |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 480936
11/15/2008 2:33 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
yes I have some rifles..here is a 303 brit and my SKS. other rifles hidden.
[ link to i362.photobucket.com]
[ link to i362.photobucket.com]
That's one purty Enfield!
thanks .. finally a person who knows their weapons.
I'm a sucker for milsurps!
you would love a collection one of my cohorts has ..
Mint M1 garande, and some other 100+ weapons. He is well prepped and if his house ever caught fire it would sound like a war zone when over 20,000 rounds started exploding..
That Enfield looks like a #4. We've gone in similar directions as far as our battle rifles go. I to have an sks-wonderful weapon-reliable as hell and pretty darn accurate-wouldn't hesitate to recommend them to anyone or the Enfield as far as that goes. I went out and got an Ishapore as well and wasn't satisfied with it until I put a peep sight on it. Pretty nice weapon considering that you can start your fight with 13 round if need be. If I were soing into battle though and didn't know what or where it would all go, I'd choose the sks-plenty of man stopping ability out to over 300 yds. |
| j_stevens0n
User ID: 535322
11/15/2008 2:40 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
I don't know about things much, but I do know that my baby is going to buy a pistol for me, probably sooner than later. I want it to be pretty, like an old 6-shooter, but I'll er on the side of safety- I want it to have a safety to. I recently got to hold his pistol, it was nice, and not too heavy, although it was sorta big. |
| Lester
User ID: 327702
11/26/2008 3:12 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Those who like the AK/SKS rifles are mainly sold by cheap ammunition, relatively cheap rifles, and reputation for reliable service.
The source of inexpensive ammunition seems to be drying up. Imports and shipping worldwide are at a standstill.
Ammunition is selling as fast by the case as the American people can find it.
The 7.62x39, unless you are willing to pay $1/rd, is mostly steel cased and therefore not reloadable. The rounds may also be Berdan primed, which means definitely not reload worthy.
Once the ammunition for these rifles is gone, they will be relics. Unlike other American and European weapons that are Boxer primed, brass cased and generally share the same case head dimension of .473 inches.
Does this matter? Not until you are out of ammunition.
A .223 remington or 5.56NATO is smaller diameter, and .303 Enfield is rimmed, but almost any other popular cartridge can be made from a .308 Winchester, a .30-06 Springfield, 7mm/8mm mauser.
If you have primers, powder, bullets or a mold, and a set of dies and maybe a hacksaw, you can probably alter another case to perform superbly in your rifle. |
| Lester
User ID: 327702
11/26/2008 3:23 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
If you have a box of .30-30 cartridges, but no rifle to fire them in, with a bullet puller, those bullets can be functional in your .308Win, .30-06 or any other American .30cal rifle or .32cal handgun. Not so with the .310 bullets in the 7.62x39.
Just as a .22lr is not "reloadable" once your ammo is gone you have nothing.
A centerfire rifle based on the .308Win/7.62Nato ctg case (243win, .260rem, 7mm/08, .338/08, .358win); or one based on the .30-06Spr/7.62x56 ctg case (25-06rem, 6.5-06, .270Win, .280Rem, 338-06, .35whelen) is incredibly versatile when it comes to being able to use common brass to manufacture ammunition.
Yet, the handloader/reloader is about perfectly served with the status quo basic ctgs. That said, the .243Win, .270Win are the two most popular variations because they are perfect for children, small framed women or those who are recoil conscious or have disabilities. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 558242
11/26/2008 4:21 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Alot of good info on this thread, but Im a keep it simple type of guy. Glock 19, Remington 870 synthetic 12G, and either a M4gry OR AK variant. I prefer the AK due to it being a .30 cal round, IMHO more "versatile". You have all bases covered. Then stock up on mags, ammo and practice, practice. |
| Lester
User ID: 559623
11/26/2008 11:30 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Not to pick on the AC right above...
But who has time to "Practice, Practice, Practice"?
I know how to sight in a weapon.
I know how to shoot accurately.
I don't need a double tap or triple tap to be sure of putting an assailant down. Odds are poor enough to score a hit on an enemy, if you carry a 9mm you will NEED those 13-20rds in your mag.
Once you know how to shoot, WTF are you doing burning out your barrel throat and pouring your money into a dirt bank or sandbagged wall at your local gunrange?
Guns are not the main focus of a Survivor.
The Survivor who anticipates shootings coming his/her way en masse needs to move!
The idea of self-defense is not to be surprised and to respond with a single devastating blow.
If you are beseiged, you are probably lost, unless you have cavalry coming before the bad guys burn you out.
If you are shooting longrange or Service Rifle, HighPower, or F-class competition, then you are honing skills. If you are practicing running and gunning, you are setting yourself up for failure.
The survivalist has no illusions about surviving multiple gunfights. If you are a mutant zombie anticipator, wake up and realize you can't play in god mode.
Every stranger you encounter is not a nail for your hammer.
If you have spent all your spare time honing your shooting skills, you've neglected acquiring those that will feed and preserve your/your family.
The firearm is very necessary, but if the survivalist never needs to fire a shot in anger, he/she has made many correct decisions and spent their time considering how to avoid the proclivity for attack. |
| Lester
User ID: 559890
11/26/2008 10:58 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
+++ RECAP +++ RECAP +++ RECAP ++++
Summary of concepts and recommendations, my own anyway...
Two types of firearms: Working Guns, Defensive Guns.
Defensive is most critical to own if you anticipate needing a weapon to fight with or defend your life.
Working guns are for hunting, sport, play and recreation. Target guns are recreational. Bolt action rifles, even Enfield/Mauser/Springfield are primarily sporting. Only a self-loading rifle with mil-spec approximate barrel is up to defensive work.
Defensive rifle needs to be magazine fed, fitted with barrel that can accept hundreds of rounds fired in one sitting without damage or accuracy shifts.
A semi-auto sporting rifle like Remington 7600 or Win 100 is not on par with an M1a or AR-10, FN-Fal, or H-K 91 etc.
A bolt rifle, unless your role is as a sniper; is not a defensive weapon. Sniper's spotter usually carries assault rifle, both carry pistols.
You can hunt with an assault weapon.
You can't really defend yourself as readily with a bolt rifle, pump, lever, or sporting semi-auto.
AR-10 in flat top, or AR-15 in flat top is great choice because they have integral Picatinny scope mount machined integrally with the receiver. |
| Lester
User ID: 559890
11/26/2008 11:13 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Defensive rifles can be accurized to serve as sniper/precision rifles. Worth doing/buying.
Depending on ammunition, the .308Win or .223Rem are the best defensive rifle chambering selections. More ammumition variety, more components, more shooters.
I will name the best options for weapons in defensive category:
1911 Colt .45acp pistol
Colt, Kimber, or Springfield Armory. With high profile or adjustable sights and tuned to feed variety of ammunition.
AR-10 or M1a .308Win/7.62x51NATO
Armalite or DPMS unless you opt for Noveske or GA Precision.
Flat top A4 receiver, 20" or maybe 24" AR-10 (T) barrel. If you want Garand technology hailing from the 1920s, go M1a/M14. Great rifles but not as easy to scope, not as accurate. Build a custom match M21 if you want, the stock will sill have to be bedded by your armorer every year or 1000+ rds fired. Smoke em if you got em...
AR-15 or Mini-14 .223Rem/5.56NATO
Colt, LMT, Armalite, Bushmaster, Rock River Arms and others. Ruger is only source for Mini-14 You want the Ranch Rifle w/integral scope mount if going Mini
Ammunition. Match grade is superior in accuracy and bullet toughness. Heavier the better in AR-15. 75 or 77gr bullets are very workable on game or other terminal media. The .308 loaded with 168 or 175 match bullets will stop anything. As for the .45acp, a flat point will deliver more energy transfer than round nosed ball ammo. Ball will work just fine. Flat point cuts clean wound channel which is "better". |
| Lester
User ID: 559890
11/26/2008 11:23 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Get a 1911 Colt type .45acp and an Armalite design .308 or .223 rifle, and lots of magazines for each plus quality ammunition.
Get handloading gear. Lee Anniversary kit and dies for your defensive weapons will cost about $400 with lots of powder, primers, and bullets. Save your brass when its fired and reload it.
Buy a decent scope for your rifle and good scope rings. Proabably medium or high depending on if your scope is a 30mm tube (med) or a 1" tube (high). Or maybe go Trijicon ACOG? Lots of options. Easier to hit with an optic. All your sighting relationships are oriented on one focal plane so no worries of sight alignment etc. Buy a scope. 4 or 6x for fixed, maybe a 3-9x variable. Leupold VX-III w/heavy duplex is a great choice, also the 1.5-5x Mark 4 with SPR reticle is excellent. Nikon Monarch 1-4x shotgun scope is also a great choice because the reticle glows against a black background. Put a flip up lens cover on that one and you have instant Bindon Aiming Concept fast reaction reticle always at the ready, at least where you have some visible light from behind. Illuminated reticle scopes are also recommended. Keep some spare batteries in your stock trap door. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 555740
11/26/2008 11:27 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
This is what I have collected
Bushmaster Ar-15
Ruger 10/22 Semi Auto Riffle
Sig 22 Semi Auto Hand Gun
Springfield Armory XD45 Semi Auto Hand Gun 5" Barrel
Remington 870 Express 12 Gauge Shot Gun
I would also like to add an M1-Grand 308 Rifle with scope.
I think that should cover it all.
What do you guys think? |
| Lester
User ID: 559890
11/26/2008 11:42 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
The Shotgun, do you "need" one?
A shotgun is The Great Comforter. Yet, unless you are an urban dweller, or maybe security guard in a warehouse setting, once any distance between you and bad guys develops, say out past 40yds, you are at disadvantage.
The shotgun is a very special purpose weapon, unless you are buying one for hunting. Even then, you need different chokes for different pursuits. You want Extra Full for pass shooting ducks or geese. You want cylinder for shooting slugs. You want improved for shooting quail, and modified as a compromise for everything.
Yeah getting hit with a slug will ruin your day, all of them, but unless you have a slub barrel that is rifled to enhance accuracy, your slug is not going to be very accurate at any distance. For sure, you want to hit what you're aiming at. Maybe you got a real winning slug barrel, or maybe you don't. Best to have a rifle.
The shotgun as a close-in weapon of massive devastation cannot be doubted. But, a .308 is pretty devastating in its own right, and consider that the .45acp is about 5" in overall length from your grip, and can fire 8 or more 230gr rounds as fast as you can press the trigger, and give you a helluva lot faster response time in making the shots.
A semi-auto military/police shotgun can be a thing of beauty, but it is special purpose duty. In your home, a .45acp will serve you better, unless you opt for a short-barrel shotgun which is an ATF restricted licensed item.
If you want a shotgun for home protection, maybe you're better off getting a short barrel upper for your Armalite rifle? A 16" barrel with ACOG sight is shorter than any shotgun w/o a tax stamp and has 30rds at the ready.
Haven't talked about ammunition. If you have a magazine extension, you get 7 or 8 rounds in the tube. Most people tout the pump action. I like em too! But firing one is a busy two-handed procedure, and the shotgun swings out in front of you with more length and barrel, unless you go pistol grip which is hard to control.
As to ammunition, too heavy, not enough in the magazine and too limited in range to serve all uses you could have to deal with. No matter how "trick" your shotgun is, if that is your go-to weapon, a bad guy won't engage you up close enough for you to use all the best features of your weapon. Then you are screwed. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 555740
11/26/2008 11:49 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
The Shotgun, do you "need" one?
Remember that the sound of a shot gun being cocked sometimes is enough. Plus some buck shot and even small game shot works great for personal defense when on a small area such as a home. |
| Lester
User ID: 559890
11/26/2008 11:51 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
This is what I have collected
Bushmaster Ar-15
Ruger 10/22 Semi Auto Riffle
Sig 22 Semi Auto Hand Gun
Springfield Armory XD45 Semi Auto Hand Gun 5" Barrel
Remington 870 Express 12 Gauge Shot Gun
I would also like to add an M1-Grand 308 Rifle with scope.
I think that should cover it all.
What do you guys think? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 555740
Buy an AR-10. Your rifles will share certain parts mainly all for the lower receiver except hammer and sear pins are common. If both rifles are A4 flat-top receivers you can swap/share socpe/optics.
I would have a 6" Ruger Mk II target bull barrel pistol rather than the 10/22. 870 Express combination is a very nice gun. Get an Uncle Mikes kit and put slings on there. Maybe a Weaver or other base and you can use a scope. Sight in your slug barrel and take it to the skeet range. Easy to shoot birds with the slug barrel, just don't look at the sights. |
| | Page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 | |
|
