| | | Page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 | Survival Guns discussed
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 562252
12/1/2008 3:07 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Centerfire Rifles
Bolt Action:
Probably the finest value in production accuracy rifles are the Remington 700 Sendero, PSS, and Varmint Special. The Stainless Fluted models with H-S Precision stock have propensity for .5moa groups once the abominable factory trigger is tuned to 2.5lbs. These are economical performers and have more accessories and accuracy gear made for them than any other production rifle outside of the AR-15.
These Remington precision rifles are chambered in .223Rem, .243Win, .308Win, .30-06, .270Win, .25-06, .264WinMag, 7mm Rem Mag, .300WinMag, 7mmUltraMag, .300UltraMag. The stainless fluted models weigh under 9lbs with varmint profile, 26" long barrel. Really probably need a muzzlebrake when shooting the UltraMag ctgs.
Savage Arms has become well-known for their model 10 tactical rifles. With H-S Precision stock they are priced comparably with the Remington 700. With plain heavy barrel and plastic stock, about $400 less. Great entry level longrange or tactical rifle. Most same ctg chamberings as the Remington 700.
Remington 700 and Savage 10/110 sporting models are also highly regarded for intrinsic accuracy. For a hunting rifle, Working Gun, these will do. The Rem 700 BDL weight is very comparable to the Sendero/VS stainless fluted. For the money, the Stainless Fluted is a premium value weapon that will serve when backpacking the high country or used in counter-sniping or precision shooting.
The other primary hunting/precision lines include Winchester/FN, Sako/Tikka, and Steyr-Mannlicher; with honorable mention to Weatherby and Browning which is also part of FN Herstal.
Best value in the above group is the Tikka T3 Varmint or the Tactical if the extra features will serve your needs. For a hunting rifle the T3 stainless is an excellent value. The .223 T3 hunter comes in a 1:8 twist so it will stabilize up to 80gr bullets with ease. Very superb rifle. Sako M995 TRG-S uses same receiver and basic trigger as the World Famous sniper system rifle the TRG22/42, but in hunting stock and barrel weight. Great entry rifle if you want a .338Lapua magnum. The Sako 595 is acclaimed as a superb match target rifle, especially in .308Win.
Steyr-Mannlicher are beautiful rifles, hammer forged rifling creates a unique barrel appearance. All Steyr-M's are superb and interesting comparable to Sako hunting rifles. Winchester 70 has long been The Rifleman's Rifle. Superb action. If you find a used Win 80 in Heavy Varmint buy it. Stainless model 70 is a great all-around hunting rifle. |
| Lester
User ID: 563626
12/1/2008 12:49 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Centerfire Rifle Ctgs
Beyond doubt the most versatile chamberings for any centerfire rifle, (at least for Americans), tend to be USA/NATO military rounds, or ctgs based on their case design. Shorter case ctgs are proven to have more accuracy characteristics, these are the .223Rem and .308Win; 5.56NATO and 7.62NATO respectively.
Ammunition, brass and bullets are typically less expensive and more readily available for these ctgs than for their variants. No doubt you could own a .17/223 and a 6mm/223 and your purposes would be well served. A 6mm/223 could be a more versatile ctg than the .223, yet velocity drop due to case capacity would indicate no benefit, so for optimum service in an AR-15 the 6.8SPC was selected. Why .277 dia bullet over 6mm or 6.5mm? Such is the military decisionmaking.
In terms of the .308Win variants, the .243Win, .260Rem, 7mm/08, .338/08 and .358Win are the proven commercial successes. Sure you could have an 8mm/08 and a .270/08 and a .25/08, but there are few compelling reasons.
The .30-06 has a great reputation for all-around status. If any American ctg could be The One, it is likely the 06, especially if a 40deg Ackley Improved shoulder is chosen. The .30-06AI almost rivals the .300WinMag for velocity and much more so for versatility.
The 06 variants are many, but .25-06, .270Win, .280Rem, 338-06 and .35Whelen are the best. There is a following for 8mm-06 and some for .375 or 9.64mm; but rather limited these days.
If you would have long barrel life, the standard chamberings are most long-lived if not overbore in capacity, like the .243Win, .260Rem, and .25-06. Many .308Win barrels will retain gilt-edged accuracy way in excess of 5,000 rds. .30-06 the same. The larger diameter a bullet is, the less pressure and bearing surface for comparable weight bullets transiting down the bore. This means less powder reqd to launch them and less wear on the barrel rifling and especially throat when fired. |
| Lester
User ID: 563626
12/1/2008 1:07 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Centerfire Rifle Ctgs contd:
Magnum ctgs provide much enhanced power over standard ctgs. Yet, they do so with accelerated barrel wear. Short-action magnums like Winchester Short Magnum (WSM) and Remington's Short Action Ultra Magnum (SAUM) might/probably offer some relief from the barrel/throat errosion problems of the larger Mag ctgs.
Yet, for Big Game hunting or longrange precision shooting, no other ctgs develop the power and velocity to deliver bullets with the energy and accuracy shooters want. The H&H magnum is the first belted rim magnum to be a success. Winchester based their magnum line of the 1950s, the .458 .338, and .300 on that case. In 1964, Remington necked down the .338WinMag to 7mm. These remain superb performers. with The Best actually being a wildcat, the .338/300 which allows greater powder capacity than standard .338WinMag and gives greater bullet weight range to the .300 case when used for longrange shooting. Ballistic Coefficiency considered, the .338 bullet offers the ideal for accuracy shooting. The 7mm offers similar ballistic coefficiency, but with 100+gr lower weight range. The 300gr .338 match bullets are about the most perfect ballistic performers going.
Weatherby Magnums based on the H&H case, but with rounded rather than angled neck are very popular with hunters. Not so much with longrange shooters. Like choosing a Cadillac over a Buick, status conscious guys like Weatherbys.
Likely the short action magnums offer the most value in this category. If you live or hunt in Alaska a .375H&H or .338/300 is ideal, if you're going to Kodiak Island for a Big One, maybe you want a .458 Lott which is a lengthened .458WinMag. The AR-10(T) has been chambered in .300SAUM, yet requires a special magazine holding 5 ctgs and doesn't give that superb a gain over the .308Win. Yet if you did a .264SAUM you might really have something... |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 326376
12/1/2008 1:22 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Centerfire Rifles
Bolt Action:
Probably the finest value in production accuracy rifles are the Remington 700 Sendero, PSS, and Varmint Special. The Stainless Fluted models with H-S Precision stock have propensity for .5moa groups once the abominable factory trigger is tuned to 2.5lbs. These are economical performers and have more accessories and accuracy gear made for them than any other production rifle outside of the AR-15.
These Remington precision rifles are chambered in .223Rem, .243Win, .308Win, .30-06, .270Win, .25-06, .264WinMag, 7mm Rem Mag, .300WinMag, 7mmUltraMag, .300UltraMag. The stainless fluted models weigh under 9lbs with varmint profile, 26" long barrel. Really probably need a muzzlebrake when shooting the UltraMag ctgs.
Savage Arms has become well-known for their model 10 tactical rifles. With H-S Precision stock they are priced comparably with the Remington 700. With plain heavy barrel and plastic stock, about $400 less. Great entry level longrange or tactical rifle. Most same ctg chamberings as the Remington 700.
Remington 700 and Savage 10/110 sporting models are also highly regarded for intrinsic accuracy. For a hunting rifle, Working Gun, these will do. The Rem 700 BDL weight is very comparable to the Sendero/VS stainless fluted. For the money, the Stainless Fluted is a premium value weapon that will serve when backpacking the high country or used in counter-sniping or precision shooting.
The other primary hunting/precision lines include Winchester/FN, Sako/Tikka, and Steyr-Mannlicher; with honorable mention to Weatherby and Browning which is also part of FN Herstal.
Best value in the above group is the Tikka T3 Varmint or the Tactical if the extra features will serve your needs. For a hunting rifle the T3 stainless is an excellent value. The .223 T3 hunter comes in a 1:8 twist so it will stabilize up to 80gr bullets with ease. Very superb rifle. Sako M995 TRG-S uses same receiver and basic trigger as the World Famous sniper system rifle the TRG22/42, but in hunting stock and barrel weight. Great entry rifle if you want a .338Lapua magnum. The Sako 595 is acclaimed as a superb match target rifle, especially in .308Win.
Steyr-Mannlicher are beautiful rifles, hammer forged rifling creates a unique barrel appearance. All Steyr-M's are superb and interesting comparable to Sako hunting rifles. Winchester 70 has long been The Rifleman's Rifle. Superb action. If you find a used Win 80 in Heavy Varmint buy it. Stainless model 70 is a great all-around hunting rifle. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 562252
700 PSS, Leopold 4.5X14X50 VariX III scope and federal gold medal 168 grain HP; when you care enough to send the very best. I can hit dimes all day long at 100 yds and I ain't all that good. What could a really well trained sniper school grad do. It's not THAT different from the M40. |
| Lester
User ID: 563626
12/1/2008 1:24 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Centerfire Ctg Selection:
It makes Great Sense, if you choose to, to own bolt rifles in chamberings that are common to your Defense Rifles.
The Sako T3 in .223 with stainless 1:8 twist barrel is about the finest choice out there. You really want that 7 or 8 twist rifle to shoot up to 80gr handloads. If you would do a custom barrel, maybe go with a 1:6.5 twist to handle the 90gr .224 bullets.
Many in F class are shooting .223Rem at 1000yds. A few pages back I mentioned a Canadian shooters website that tested 1000yd performance of 90gr bullets and reported .25moa performance when fired by skilled operator. The .223 has its F-Class champions but it is not really a longrange proposition.
The .308Win is another fine performer. Not really a 1000yd ctg either, but the Palma guys make it work with 155gr match bullets and stout loads of powder down 29" barrels.
For hunting purposes the .223Rem and .308Win will serve.
If you have one rifle, either of these ctgs will take deer and the .308 is suitable for elk and black bear. How many of these animals fell to the .30-30Win, or a .36cal blackpowder rifle? A helluva lot. If you place your bullet well, the .223 will perform. The .308 same way on biggest game.
For the survivalist, the common cartridge variations would be best, or if a handloader whatever his gear will allow. So the bolt rifle ctgs most common are: .243Win and .270Win. All others mentioned are very fine. When it comes to most common Magnum, the .300Win has to get the nod. Alaska game guides endorse it as all-around with premium bullets and it has won more 1000yd competitions than any other ctg design.
To recap, if you have a .223/.243/.270/.308/.30-06 or .300WinMag, you will likey be able to find commercial ammunition anywhere in the USA and possibly on earth. |
| Lester
User ID: 563626
12/1/2008 1:43 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
When Mel Tappan wrote Survival Guns, the AR-15 Renaissance was 15yrs away. The AR-10 was not commercially available and had not been modified to reposition the 10b charging handle from top of the receiver.
Had these events occured then, possibly MT would have seen fit to endorse the Armalite AR-10 and AR-15 weapons systems as the Best Solution to centerfire riflery for the survivalist. I make no hesitation in doing so.
The Survivalist has a need for versatile tools.
The Survivalist is NOT a hunter of Big Game, not a Trophy hunter; although he/she may have been.
When the chips are down, the Survivalist needs nothing more than a single rifle adequate in all respects for sustained self-defense, accurate delivery of fire, and adequate power.
The AR rifles as developed by accuracy gunmakers today will outperform boltrifles, save those singleshot benchrest pieces which shoot the .22 and 6mmPPC. The bullshit in Unintended Consequences aside, not many benchrest shooters will opt for their 16lb singleshot in a defensive situation.
If you could only have one rifle, the AR-10 or AR-15 could serve you well. Plus there is the option of having multiple upper assemblies for short or long barrel situations.
At any rate, in my opinion and experience, the AR rifles can outperform any bolt action weapon; except a magnum at longrange. The self-loading capability mitigates any gain the bolt magnum might have at any shorter yardage.
The Survivalist's rifle is primarily defensive, but should be capable of taking any game at any realistic distance. At much over 400yds there is little difference in impact energy between a 168/175 matchking lauched from a .308Win or a 180gr bullet from a .300WinMag. If using Barnes or Nosler premium hunting bullets the performance is even more equal. Bullet placement is the key at distance. Easier to shoot an AR-10 than a magnum, unless that magnum has a brake or suppressor. |
| Lester
User ID: 563626
12/1/2008 1:55 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
"700 PSS, Leopold 4.5X14X50 VariX III scope and federal gold medal 168 grain HP; when you care enough to send the very best."
Very true testimony written above. A little gunsmithing and handloaded ammunition and probably could keep 5shot groups under .4moa at 100/200yds all day long.
Yet, an AR-10 will deliver the same accuracy but 20x without your concentration shifting to manipulate the bolt or reload. That Leupold scope is The Best quality optic for the money and for its lightweight. The others are all Boat Anchors because they weigh a ton or about 2x what the Leupold weighs.
IMHO, it is optics and the base & rings especially that make the accuracy of a rifle realizable. The AR-10 is nice for its built-in picatinny spec rail on the A4 type receivers.
For a real longrange rifle, the .300Ultra Senderos are the ticket. These will shoot well over 1200yds with high accuracy. With a custom barrel optimized for the 240gr Matchking, the .300RUM will compete with the .338Lapua and it is touted as a 1500yd performer.
For a real woods roaming rifle, the Stainless Fluted varmint special is the ticket or the 20" fluted barrel version if you stock it in H-S Precision which means a new stock. |
| Enigma
User ID: 70637
12/1/2008 2:04 PM
 | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
"700 PSS, Leopold 4.5X14X50 VariX III scope and federal gold medal 168 grain HP; when you care enough to send the very best." Quoting: Lester
Sako M995 TRG-S uses same receiver and basic trigger as the World Famous sniper system rifle the TRG22/42, but in hunting stock and barrel weight.
My main squeeze is this setup and scope 4 to 12 in a Sako M995 in .300 win mag...
it's a dime shooter at 100 yards EASY...
I've killed whitetails out to 450 yards with it, and ONCE shot a caribou at about 600 yards...
it's a fine machine...
I've got a couple of AK's with a pile of mags I plan to sell soon...
Wanting to get a couple more .22 rifles and pistols, and the AK has to go, along with ALL those expensive mags...
keeping the SKS and the ammo....
enigma
"knowing and not DOING, is like NOT KNOWING at all" |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 226145
12/1/2008 5:24 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
"700 PSS, Leopold 4.5X14X50 VariX III scope and federal gold medal 168 grain HP; when you care enough to send the very best."
Very true testimony written above. A little gunsmithing and handloaded ammunition and probably could keep 5shot groups under .4moa at 100/200yds all day long.
Yet, an AR-10 will deliver the same accuracy but 20x without your concentration shifting to manipulate the bolt or reload. That Leupold scope is The Best quality optic for the money and for its lightweight. The others are all Boat Anchors because they weigh a ton or about 2x what the Leupold weighs.
IMHO, it is optics and the base & rings especially that make the accuracy of a rifle realizable. The AR-10 is nice for its built-in picatinny spec rail on the A4 type receivers.
For a real longrange rifle, the .300Ultra Senderos are the ticket. These will shoot well over 1200yds with high accuracy. With a custom barrel optimized for the 240gr Matchking, the .300RUM will compete with the .338Lapua and it is touted as a 1500yd performer.
For a real woods roaming rifle, the Stainless Fluted varmint special is the ticket or the 20" fluted barrel version if you stock it in H-S Precision which means a new stock. Quoting: Lester
Overkill, man.
Most zombie-shooters aren't gonna have the skill to hit a target at 700 yards, let alone 1200. Nor will they have the opportunity in most cases. Even the Army doesn't engage targets with rifles at those ranges very often. Most combat situations are inside 400 yards.
In my suburban jungle the longest practical shot would be about 220 yards. Well within the effective range of a Remington 7600 pump rifle in whatever caliber you prefer. The absolute longest possible shot from my rooftop would be 600 yards. Still within the effective range of the 7600, if you choose a major caliber and top it with the leupy scope you reference, or even the 4.5-14 Rifleman version.
Stick with dirt-common tools and dirt-common ammo. No need to go with esoteric chamberings and black rifles that TPTB are skeered of.
Practicality is the name of the game. The remmy pumps are reliable, practical, easy to use, and loads cheaper than the AR-10 or the fancy boltgun you reference. And they'll do the job that needs doin'. |
| Lost Fisherman
User ID: 226145
12/1/2008 5:26 PM
 | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
"700 PSS, Leopold 4.5X14X50 VariX III scope and federal gold medal 168 grain HP; when you care enough to send the very best."
Very true testimony written above. A little gunsmithing and handloaded ammunition and probably could keep 5shot groups under .4moa at 100/200yds all day long.
Yet, an AR-10 will deliver the same accuracy but 20x without your concentration shifting to manipulate the bolt or reload. That Leupold scope is The Best quality optic for the money and for its lightweight. The others are all Boat Anchors because they weigh a ton or about 2x what the Leupold weighs.
IMHO, it is optics and the base & rings especially that make the accuracy of a rifle realizable. The AR-10 is nice for its built-in picatinny spec rail on the A4 type receivers.
For a real longrange rifle, the .300Ultra Senderos are the ticket. These will shoot well over 1200yds with high accuracy. With a custom barrel optimized for the 240gr Matchking, the .300RUM will compete with the .338Lapua and it is touted as a 1500yd performer.
For a real woods roaming rifle, the Stainless Fluted varmint special is the ticket or the 20" fluted barrel version if you stock it in H-S Precision which means a new stock.
Overkill, man.
Most zombie-shooters aren't gonna have the skill to hit a target at 700 yards, let alone 1200. Nor will they have the opportunity in most cases. Even the Army doesn't engage targets with rifles at those ranges very often. Most combat situations are inside 400 yards.
In my suburban jungle the longest practical shot would be about 220 yards. Well within the effective range of a Remington 7600 pump rifle in whatever caliber you prefer. The absolute longest possible shot from my rooftop would be 600 yards. Still within the effective range of the 7600, if you choose a major caliber and top it with the leupy scope you reference, or even the 4.5-14 Rifleman version.
Stick with dirt-common tools and dirt-common ammo. No need to go with esoteric chamberings and black rifles that TPTB are skeered of.
Practicality is the name of the game. The remmy pumps are reliable, practical, easy to use, and loads cheaper than the AR-10 or the fancy boltgun you reference. And they'll do the job that needs doin'. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 226145
Trin, ET, SHR, Omega -
Obviously there are some problems occurring. Post quoted above was mine - I was logged in with 'remember me' checked, and my username was indicated, but the post is attributed to an AC.
"Uhhhhhh......"
Barack Obama |
| Enigma
User ID: 70637
12/1/2008 5:28 PM
| | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
I didn't say I was hunting zombies, NOR is it my survival weapon...
just the most accurate I have...
I love that gun... it's my main hunting weapon. mm mmm GOOD!
as far as survival guns... the one you have with you...
I got a couple of chests full of tools... same for weapons...
every man gets to choose his own tools... a few of mine were gifts, but all them do the trick...
enigma
"knowing and not DOING, is like NOT KNOWING at all" |
| Enigma
User ID: 70637
12/1/2008 5:30 PM
| | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
In my suburban jungle the longest practical shot would be about 220 yards. Well within the effective range of a Remington 7600 pump rifle in whatever caliber you prefer. The absolute longest possible shot from my rooftop would be 600 yards. Still within the effective range of the 7600, if you choose a major caliber and top it with the leupy scope you reference, or even the 4.5-14 Rifleman version.
Stick with dirt-common tools and dirt-common ammo. No need to go with esoteric chamberings and black rifles that TPTB are skeered of.
Practicality is the name of the game. The remmy pumps are reliable, practical, easy to use, and loads cheaper than the AR-10 or the fancy boltgun you reference. And they'll do the job that needs doin'. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 226145
yes they are and my first deer rifle was a Remington Gamemaster 760? in .300 savage...
killed lots of deer with that gun...
Remington 740's and 760's are great guns...
"knowing and not DOING, is like NOT KNOWING at all" |
| Lost Fisherman
User ID: 226145
12/1/2008 5:39 PM
| | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
In my suburban jungle the longest practical shot would be about 220 yards. Well within the effective range of a Remington 7600 pump rifle in whatever caliber you prefer. The absolute longest possible shot from my rooftop would be 600 yards. Still within the effective range of the 7600, if you choose a major caliber and top it with the leupy scope you reference, or even the 4.5-14 Rifleman version.
Stick with dirt-common tools and dirt-common ammo. No need to go with esoteric chamberings and black rifles that TPTB are skeered of.
Practicality is the name of the game. The remmy pumps are reliable, practical, easy to use, and loads cheaper than the AR-10 or the fancy boltgun you reference. And they'll do the job that needs doin'.
yes they are and my first deer rifle was a Remington Gamemaster 760? in .300 savage...
killed lots of deer with that gun...
Remington 740's and 760's are great guns... Quoting: Enigma
Mine was an older 760 too, .30-06. Never kilt anything with it though. .300 Savage, huh? IMNSHO, one of the most UNDERRATED choices available. Shame it was overshadowed by the .308.
"Uhhhhhh......"
Barack Obama |
| Lester
User ID: 563626
12/1/2008 9:26 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
The Leupold LongRangeTarget 4.5-14x 50mm has about 100moa of movement in the turrets. It is one of the best variables Leupold has made in terms of reticle movement. The mark 4 version is about the same as the LRT except it has the M1 turrets rather than the Target Turrets. Very short scope also making it ideal for AR rifles. The 50mm objective is a bit much, but the 40mm doesn't have the movement range, so you buy what you need.
Doesn't much matter about what you're most likely to face. Your gear can be optimized for precision if you expect to use it for such. Pretty easy to have a Battle Sight Zero and then use a Mil-Dot or TMR/hashmark to holdover if you are "in a hurry". The 4x setting with an Illuminated Reticle can work on a Bindon Aiming Principle, just turn on the reticle and close the Butler Creek flip-up on your objective.... Bindon works at night also. No illumination out the objective. Of course, you have to sight-in for it or know any correction. Not like you are response shooting with precision anyway. Yet, being only 2" L or R is no big deal if you can shoot reactively in the dark or twilight.
I don't get the love-lost attitude about the Remington pump/auto or the .300 Savage. The .300 Savage is about like the .30-30. Nice in the Savage 99 in its day, but since the .308Win came along and does everything better, why the remorse?
None of the sporters are going to serve in the event you must fire a lot of rounds fast. If you can rebarrel at home, fine; but a 5rd mag is not much to work with and spare mags are almost $30 these days.
Omega, did you know your TRG-S can use a TRG42 magazine? Takes notching the 42 mag to match the notch on the S but then the 42 mag fits like a glove. Gives you 7rds of .300 magnum, 8 counting one in the chamber if you carry loaded. |
| Smoke52
User ID: 272605
12/1/2008 10:47 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
.22 rifles,
Bolt Action...
Not a fan of single shots. A Winchester or Remington would be hard to beat if you want a single shot.
The Winchester 52 is The highest regarded .22lr bolt action ever produced. Yet the recent Remington 541 is likely its equal or better. Technology marches on etc.
If we really want The Best in a .22lr bolt gun, look to Anschutz. Their sporting rifles and target pieces are the highest art of the rimfire gunmaker.
One of the finest all-around bolt rifles is/was the Remington 513T. This match repeater offered micrometer sights and used the typical Remington magazine of the day. Brownells still sells replacement magazines that are perfect replicas, just don't say Remington on the floorplate. Look for one of these with a grooved receiver, IE later production. If you ever want to mount a scope, it can be problematic with the older rifles' receiver.
The Remington Nylon bolt rifles are very nice. Also very collectible. Marlin, Mossberg made some fine .22 bolts before WWII.
One of the finest bolt sporters was the Browning T-Bolt, a straight pull magazine repeater. Beautiful little guns.
If I wanted a bolt rifle, I'd look for a Remington 541 or a 513T, Quoting: Lester
Hey lester I have a Winchester model 72, .22 LR. It is probably the most accurate 22 I have. What is your opinion on it? |
| Lester
User ID: 563626
12/2/2008 2:21 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
My uncle had a 77, think it was, semi-auto with mag integral to the trigger guard, nice wooden stock. The Winchester .22s pre-64 are all pretty fine guns. Very good overall, especially the pump actions. Remington made nice pump .22s also.
Looked up your bolt-action model 72 on gunbroker.com. Looks about like the Remington 513, probably shoots very nice. Bought my son a Remington 511 very decent basic magazine feed bolt gun. Long barrels compared to today. Nice for shooting shorts or CB caps. Maybe try those Aguila Colibri, prolly quieter than a pellet gun.
Wouldja believe guys on gunbroker want $325 - $350 for these basic .22s? Remington and Winchester used to advertise in Boy's Life when I was a cub scout. These were $40 guns back then, maybe less for single shots.
Used to be able to find parts for the old .22s on Ebay. No more barrels or bolts, but you never know what else you might find.
Saw a real trick blonde & brown late model Remington pump .22 in a pawnshop couple years ago at maybe $150. Shoulda, but how many can you bring home just because you got a deal?
Hope you enjoy your nice rifle. |
| Smoke52
User ID: 272605
12/2/2008 12:58 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Yea I saw that on gunbroker also. I was surprised to see what it is worth, however it is a joy to shoot. I just use the original open sights, and with my eyes getting bad now, I can still hit pop cans at 50 yards.
My dad gave me this rifle when I was 12. We lived on a ranch in central Idaho USA, and the ground squirrls were a nusance. We had more than one horse or cow break a leg falling into their huge ground holes. So I always had the rifle with me and did what I could to keep the ground squirrl population under control. Back then 100 yard hit with the open sights were comon. Ah to be young again.
I also have a pre-64 model 70 270. Between it and the model 700 BDL they are my favorite large caliber rifles.
I just purchased about a month ago a Kimber, classic select model 8400 chambered in 338 Win. Mag. I am still nursing a bruise on my sholder after a target session about 5 days ago. Heck of a weapon, But about 5 shots at a time are all I can handle. I am heading up to Alaska for one of the big boys, in about 9 months. Hopfully I won't need to use 5 shots! |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 226145
12/2/2008 2:04 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
I don't get the love-lost attitude about the Remington pump/auto or the .300 Savage. The .300 Savage is about like the .30-30. Nice in the Savage 99 in its day, but since the .308Win came along and does everything better, why the remorse?
None of the sporters are going to serve in the event you must fire a lot of rounds fast. If you can rebarrel at home, fine; but a 5rd mag is not much to work with and spare mags are almost $30 these days. Quoting: Lester
I never expressed any remorse over the sale of my 760, I'm simply pointing out a new reality - we are closer than ever to gun confiscation than we have ever been, especially in a SHTF scenario. A pump-action hunting rifle is much less likely to be confiscated soon than any of the AR or AK variants, or what the gov't will shortly start calling 'sniper rifles', especially if said sniper rifle is configured with 'sniper scope'. I'm talking about liberal perception here, which will drive reality sooner than we might like to think.
As for your argument that the .308 is better than the .300 Sav, I've used the same argument for years with my preference, the .30-06. It'll do everything the .308 will do and then some, plus surplus ammo is still ubiquitous. So why use a .308?
Plus, your contention that the .300 Savage is 'about' like the .30-30 is patently false. All factory .300 Savage loadings are substantially more powerful than the equivalent .30-30 loadings. Looking at the various Remington .30 cal. factory loads for 150 grain pills, we see the following muzzle velocities/energies:
.30-30 Win: 2390/1902
.300 Sav: 2630/2303
.308 Win: 2820/2648
.30-06 Sprg: 2910/2820
The .300 savage is 21% more powerful than the .30-30. The .308 is 15% more powerful than the .300 savage. The .30-06 is 6% more powerful than the .308.
In the pump rifles the savage was a better choice than the .30-30 because of the ability to use pointy bullets in factory loads to extend the reach a bit (sighted in at 100 yards my M94 droops substantially at 200), but recoil was still tolerable by a short-statured or recoil-sensitive person desiring a .30-cal rifle. The military was sufficiently impressed with the savage offering that it based the .308 on it. The big reason for the boost in pressure, increase in length, and decrease in body taper was to try to match the power of the .30-06 in a shorter package - that was deemed important for some reason, even though their own research showed that most combat took place at ranges well within the reach of the .300 savage.
BTW, don't mistake my dissertation as denigrating the .308 - it is a fine choice for many applications. Many of my friends and relatives use it with great success and fondness. For me, it is insufficiently versatile (try stuffing a 250 gr. pill in it and doing anything meaningful) and too heavy for the recoil-shy.
Would I like to have an AR-10? You betcha. I'd also like to have one of the Cobb variants in .30-06. And, I'd like to have my FAL back (only sale I regret). But, with Dems controlling both elected branches of the gov't, and their desire to Europeanize the US, if we have 2 Obama terms I'm betting that confiscations begin before 2017. And they'll start with the politically incorrect stuff first.
I just thought of one more reason the savage may become attractive - in many countries, military calibers are illegal. They may try to do that here too, taking the .223, .308, and .30-06 off the table. |
| Lester
User ID: 564528
12/2/2008 6:15 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
My perspective on the .308 is this:
Shorter case produces greater accuracy, burns less powder, gets about the same velocity. .30-06 IS more powerful, but not by much. For more power, try an Ackley Improved shoulder, very excellent results and enhances accuracy. Sharper shoulder angles are accuracy fostering.
Yet, the .308 has milder recoil and is widely available in self-loading rifles. Only the Browning BAR, Remington 740 and Garand are/have been chambered for long action ctgs or H&H based magnums.
As to the .300 Savage getting by bans on military calibers, IE like in Mexico... It is a ban on ANY .308 cal weapon, save maybe the .30-30. I read years ago of 7mm conversions for Garand and other battlerifles for Mexican owners. Who knows anymore?
Enjoyed hearing about the Win 75. First bolt rifle I ever bought was a Rem 700BDL in .270Win. Had the FleurDeLis checkering. Made some good shots with open sights, then put a 3x Weaver k4 on it. I was reading a lot of Jack O'Connor as a kid. My 90gr Sierra hp loads were really explosive. The .270 or .30-06 would make a great all-around rifle, (or switchbarrel them!), yet unless you do a Garand Mod, neither is a defensive weapon.
Defensive weapons are The Ticket these days... |
| Lester
User ID: 564938
12/3/2008 11:46 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Looking for a "deal" on a quality weapon?
Figure all the high prices are just scum out gouging the market? While you are scouring forums, calling all over your state, availability is shrinking and prices are sky-rocketing.
Better really wake up to what the market for anything else that might be deemed "necessary" is gonna look like. Imagine it is food you are trying to obtain, but nobody has the basics...
Gunshops are about to go out of business en masse. If they have no inventory to sell, no ammunition in-stock, they will fast go broke. Not a helluva lot of demand for anything that can't be fired in a semi-auto rifle/pistol or defense loads for revolvers.
Really, at this time my advice is to buy the best gear you can find and then buy what you want when you can find it. Your first purchase will likely pay for most of the second, their value will be going up also.
Just remember, people aren't looking for "deer-rifles", they want/feel need for defensive wweapons.
Had better acquire what you can in ammunition and spare magazines as well. The cheap and generic Win-USA, Rem-UMC, Fed-American Eagle is a great value, if for brass alone; but try finding any. Even cheap knock-off pistol and rilfe magazines are in high demand.
Buy what you can.
Buy what might work for other guys/gals you know.
Can always trade a Glock mag, or a 1911 mag for something of quality. With ammunition, you can write you own ticket. Just be sure of who you are dealing with. |
| Enigma
User ID: 70637
12/3/2008 1:06 PM
| | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Well I've owned a Remington Pump in .300 Savage... it was my Dad's first rifle and my first rifle...
the .300 savage is almost identical to the .308... as a matter of FACT a .300 savage will chamber and shoot in a .308 ( sam bullet, slightly shorter overall lenght ) but not very accurate...
I've killed quite a few deer with it, some at long distances ( artillery? )
it is NOT a threatening rifle, though I prefer bolt actions for hunting...
I HAVE BEEN seriously considering getting a .270 SS bolt action as a hunting rifle... every little store in the Texas Hill Country ALWAYS has .270 ammo... a little .308 or 3006...
kind of a Toss Up between that and a 3006...
thinking maybe a Ruger or a Savage Stainless bolt rifle with plastic stock...
"knowing and not DOING, is like NOT KNOWING at all" |
| Enigma
User ID: 70637
12/3/2008 1:11 PM
| | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Enjoyed hearing about the Win 75. First bolt rifle I ever bought was a Rem 700BDL in .270Win. Had the FleurDeLis checkering. Made some good shots with open sights, then put a 3x Weaver k4 on it. I was reading a lot of Jack O'Connor as a kid. My 90gr Sierra hp loads were really explosive. The .270 or .30-06 would make a great all-around rifle, (or switchbarrel them!), yet unless you do a Garand Mod, neither is a defensive weapon. Quoting: Lester
I got deefensive weapons out the wazoo... not worried there...
I'm looking at survival bullets and round...
.270 seems to be ubiquitous in Texas for hunting rounds...
so my choices are .308 ( I have ammo for THAT, .3006 ( no ammo ) or .270 ( no ammo, but every beer bait and ammo has some... )
.308? or .270?
I'm talking bolt gun, box mag, good scope ( scope will cost more than gun )
"knowing and not DOING, is like NOT KNOWING at all" |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 551666
12/3/2008 1:18 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
So after this long thread what rifle would be best recommended for 500 or less..Thats all I got. I like the semi-autos but will take all you pics under serious thought. I loved some of the .308s I looked at but trying to be practical. Just need 1 all around best bang for the buck gun. |
| Enigma
User ID: 70637
12/3/2008 1:32 PM
| | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
So after this long thread what rifle would be best recommended for 500 or less..Thats all I got. I like the semi-autos but will take all you pics under serious thought. I loved some of the .308s I looked at but trying to be practical. Just need 1 all around best bang for the buck gun. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551666
If I had to just choose one weapon, I would say a bolt action SS with a GREAT scope...
see the optics are WAY MORE IMPORTANT than the gun or caliber...
the new scop i am looking at is almost 1000 bucks... not including rings...
So 500? Ishapore Mk4 in .308... have several I bought years ago for CHEAP and my dad still hunts with one...
I think they are about 250 bucks, and that will get you a Tascam or Bushnell scope, rings and mount for the other 250...
"knowing and not DOING, is like NOT KNOWING at all" |
| Lester
User ID: 565275
12/3/2008 11:10 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
If you can find a Savage 99 or Browning BLR in .308; they would both be excellent rifles in the $500 range. These are lever action, magazine fed sporting rifles. Very well regarded for accuracy, fast to operate for repeat shots. Also, the Marlin 336 in .30-30 or the 1894 in .44mag or .357 mag could be a good choice. The lever action has a very fast and instinctive process for reloading. Any of these rifles can be scoped. The Browning might be more than you budget.
The Remington 700ADL is about the best buy in a basic bolt rifle. Savage 10 or 110 could be more affordable. They are also very good. Ruger or Browning, not so much. The Remington and Savage are popular with precision shooters in the tactical arena. .308 is the preferred chambering
The Remington pumps 760 or 7600 are very decent. EGW Evolution Gun Works makes a picatinny rail scope mount for the rem pump & autoloader. The short action ctgs, .243, 260, 7mm/08, 308 and 358 are just a bit less in the power dept than the long action ctgs the .25-06, 270, 280, 30-06 and 35Whelen. Short action ctgs will feed easier in a repeater.
Not much difference between a .270 and an 06. The 06 has lots more range of bullet weights open to you. 100-220gr. The .270 will go 90-150gr. The 06 will have longer barrel life.
If you own a .357mag or .38sp handgun, you can shoot cast bullets for the .357 family in a .35 Whelen or .358Win. Gives you some flexibility.
I own a set of basic Full Length dies for every rifle I own and advise the same for you, or buy a Lee Loader some lg rifle primers (rem or win) some bullets and Varget powder for .308 case variants, or 4350/4064 for 06 cases. You want some bullets as well.
For $500 can get a Remington ADL, Leupold Dual Dovetail rings and a Nikon Buckmasters or Bushnell 3200 scope. Price the scope on Ebay. Savage would also be a great choice. If you want lever or pump see the above. Look at pawnshops, on gunbroker (search your state), and ask friends if they have a rifle to sell.
I was at our town's gundealers today, and there were no semi-autos to be had, no .223 ammo, no .308 and no powder, primers or bullets.
Just have to be there when components and any rifles come in. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 551666
12/4/2008 10:59 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
 |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 565124
12/4/2008 11:19 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
This thread should be entitled
"A stream of consciousness regarding guns"
or
"CUT N' PASTE GUN SHIT"
or
"GUNS: OPINIONS YOU SHOULD NOT FOLLOW"
or
"WHY YOU SHOULD NEVER FOLLOW THE ADVICE OF SOMEONE WHO HAS NEVER BEEN SHOT AT, LET ALONE SHOT AT ANYONE, ABOUT WHAT TO USE TO DEFEND YOURSELF" |
| Lost Fisherman
User ID: 226145
12/4/2008 11:48 AM
| | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
So after this long thread what rifle would be best recommended for 500 or less..Thats all I got. I like the semi-autos but will take all you pics under serious thought. I loved some of the .308s I looked at but trying to be practical. Just need 1 all around best bang for the buck gun. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551666
You'll have to watch for sales to do this.
Remington pump-action .30-06 or .308 if you want major caliber, Remington pump-action 7615 if you want .223 and the ability to use M-16/AR-15 mags.
Top with a Leupold Rifleman 2-7 or 3-9 scope in quick-detach rings/base.
Or, Stevens 200 in .308 or .30-06, same scope recommentation, Leupold STD rings & bases if you're in a hurry and a boltgun is ok.
"Uhhhhhh......"
Barack Obama |
| Enigma
User ID: 70637
12/4/2008 12:01 PM
| | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
This thread should be entitled
"A stream of consciousness regarding guns"
or
"CUT N' PASTE GUN SHIT"
or
"GUNS: OPINIONS YOU SHOULD NOT FOLLOW"
or
"WHY YOU SHOULD NEVER FOLLOW THE ADVICE OF SOMEONE WHO HAS NEVER BEEN SHOT AT, LET ALONE SHOT AT ANYONE, ABOUT WHAT TO USE TO DEFEND YOURSELF" Quoting: Anonymous Coward 565124
or we could call it the AC eat shit and die thread...
we are having a discussion on guns...
so if you don't want to read or contribute...
DON'T click the link...
moron
"knowing and not DOING, is like NOT KNOWING at all" |
| Lester
User ID: 565617
12/4/2008 2:38 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
The focus of this topic eludes many who might very well be those you may have to deal with....
A "Survivalist" is a person who observed the events/trends of his/her society (business/government/education/health etc), and concluded it was prudent to move "out of harms way"; where ever they concluded relocation was preferable.
A Survivalist has different motivations to own weapons.
Hopefully, the Survivalist did not relocate to a high crime area or to a location sited in a prime evacuation corridor from major metro area or city. The Survivalist seeks to be "out of the line of fire".
If you live in an urban setting or in the midst of a less than prosperous suburb in a metro area, Maybe/Probably you could use a selective fire 9mm carbine with a silencer to enhance your chances of living through anarchy and collapse? Good idea to carry a 3" high-cap .40 auto pistol and maybe wear Kevlar clothing. Probably also want an armored home or heavy brick structure for your residence.
But, we are onto something different.
The Survivalist has need for weapons as tools with defensive capability. A heavy caliber auto-pistol and a military patern semi-auto rifle will fulfill those defensive chores much more ably than a bolt or lever rifle and revolver. Maybe you look silly shooting garden pests with an AR-15? So what? The rifles can be setup to be as accurate as a 12lb varmint rifle, and offer self-loading repeat shots. The .45acp 1911 will kill deer and other game, or anything trying to kill your chickens. Also very accurate and easy to shoot.
Should the Survivalist have spent their time "training"? Running combat courses and developing instinctive fire habbits and combat stroke fast-draw skills? Probably not. The Survivalist has too many other critical things to do, skills to learn.
Any bastard or group of bastards that I happen to observe in my spotting scope, who are moving with combat gear and obviously no dependents or peaceful intentions will be targeted. Too many "tough men" figured all they needed was weapons, kit, and ammo. They might be correct if they are part of some survivalist enclave, but these bastards think they will take their living from others. The Survivalist and their neighbors will show the bastards how dead wrong they are.... |
| | Page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 | |
|
