| | | Page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 | Survival Guns discussed
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 805709
 United States
10/30/2009 12:02 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
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| Hitndahedfred
User ID: 805706
United States
10/30/2009 11:03 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
#1 Ruger 10/22
#2, Mossberg pump with folding stock and 0/0 buckshot
#3 Good ole AK47 the choice of all good terrorists. Ammo easily and readily available. Works when mud covered unlike the more easily dust damaged American Assault style weapons.
#4, 45acp for close combat
35, 357mag/38 for the woods
Just my opinions now mind you
"The study of prehistory today is in a state of crisis. Archaeologists all over the world have realized that much of prehistory, as written in the existing textbooks, is inadequate: some of it quite simply wrong. A few errors, of course, were to be expected, since the discovery of new material through archaeological excavation inevitably leads to new conclusions. But what has come as a considerable shock, a development hardly forseeable just a few years ago, is that prehistory as we have learnt it is based upon several assumptions which can no longer be accepted as valid." -- Colin Renfrew, archaeologist, 1973 |
| Lester
User ID: 805761
United States
10/31/2009 6:33 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Fred,
Perspectives change depending on where you are and what you envision.
AR-15 is the #1 weapon of choice. Why?
-Easy to maintain, gunsmith, swap parts & barrels in the field or at home.
-Ammo is versatile, lightweight, and if selected for accuracy can be used to 600/700yds. 1000yds if have 6.5 twist barrel.
-Rifle is lightweight, durable, and compact
.22LR is versatile, but more from a pistol. You can scope a 6" target pistol and have same precision as a rifle unless you are one of those who think a .22lr at over 75yds is viable. Then, you have no hope as a survivalist....
.45acp will serve for defense and game taking. But, instead of the .38/357 the .44mag is much better. Even better would be a double action .45 Casull or .460 S&W with a .45acp cylinder. Can shoot .45Colt in the Casull/.460 S&W and they are bored .4515 or .452 so the acp should be fine. Shoot .45acp lead semi-wadcutters and you have almost .22lr recoil, but will kill any small game easily without damaging meat.
Shotguns? Whafo? Figuring on bird hunting? Pass shooting those geese on Southerly migration? An AR-15 will do more up close, and then there is past 50yds... |
| Lester
User ID: 805761
United States
10/31/2009 6:45 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
No diss to the SKS and AK shooters, but...
Really the main thing is unless you have 10K rds stored in your premises, why not go for a round you can reload and that uses a USA standard bore diameter? Then there is the power thing... Would you deliberately choose a .30-30? The .30-30 has more power than the 7.62x39...
Don't matter to me; might matter to you.
Can't do anything with the steel cases that will be laying around. Berdan primed brass the same way. Brass though is more valuable for smelting.
If you were to choose to pay $1/ea for boxer primed commercial 7.62x39, why? Better to go with some PPC case derivative. 6.5 Grendel or 6mmAR, 6mmPPC etc... Then if you were going with the precision ctg, you would move to the AR which is where all the development for precision semis has taken place.... Maybe go 6.8 SPC and load 135gr Sierra Matchking and have no worries???
Real easy to just neck up the .223 case and do a 6mm x45...
But actually, a .223 with 75 or 77 grain match bullets will take game, hold .5moa to 500yds and with single-loading a correct twist barrel, an AR-15 can fire 80 or 90gr VLD bullets. Can't buy those 80 or 90 gr loads that I know of. And who can afford to pay $30 per box of 20 for 77gr match ammo? So you handload. Oops! No can do if'n ya gots one of them steel case shooting marvels or berdan primed poodle-poppers.... |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 795584
 Finland
10/31/2009 6:51 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Buy 'em all, cause I can't get shit in here |
| Lester
User ID: 805761
United States
10/31/2009 7:03 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Switchbarrel rifles.
Here is a tool for the survivalist.
Much cheaper and more beneficial to own a quality rifle that will fire a range of ammunition.
The foremost rifle sold over the counter that fits this description is the Sako TRG 42. Beretta USA sells stocks, magazines and bolt bodies. They don't sell barrels, but barrels are the easy part. You don't want their barrel anyway, you want Stainless or match grade moly in barrel contour and chambering of your choice. About the only ctgs you can't do with the M995 action are the small .373 (.223rem) and .445 (7.62x39 and PPC/Grendel/Beowulf etc). If you want smaller cases, better to go with Tikka M595...
Probably don't need a .223 boltgun anyway. You have a precision upper for your AR, right? The Grendel or Beowulf is a working proposition there too...
If you knew you wanted a .338 Lapua and a regular magnum, and something like a .30-06; buying a TRG42 in .338 Lapua, and two extra bolt bodies in .473 and .532 would cost about $450 from BerettaUSa. two correct magazines are another $450 Then you order barrels about $400 ea. Still cheaper than buying three $2800 rifles. So far you are $4500 into the deal, but unless you just wanted a .308win and .300win mag as your "extras", you'd be looking at rebarreling anyway... So it's $9200 or $8400 or $4500. Haven't bought a muzzlebrake, bipod, sling swivels or scope base & mounts... That's another $1100 if you go Sako, but no need...
Hell, you really don't want that .338 Lapua; you want the newer, shorter .338 Norma or maybe you ditch the .488 boltface super-mags altogether? I would and did.
The .338 caliber and 7mm caliber currently offer the highest ballistic coefficient bullets available. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 787743
United States
10/31/2009 7:37 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
I'll guess the location-Sierra Nevada Mountains near the Kings River?
You talking my location?
Do you know the gig? If you can guess our location within 5 miles you win a free trip to the house and the shooting is on me.
I'd say you're about 1500 miles off. A hint we are in the shadow of a fourteener. Quoting: UD 303516
Colorado, Pikes Peake |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 787743
United States
10/31/2009 7:41 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Centerfire Working Rifles:
Your Defensive weapon can also be your working rifle.
A .308Win can fulfill lots of roles, IF you handload for it. The .223 Remington is more versatile IF you don't need to harvest animals larger than Black Bear or Mule Deer. More on this in the Defensive Rifle discussion.
Basically, here we are talking about deer and varmint rifles. Mostly bolt actions and scoped. Although you have to love the lever action carbines and maybe the Scout Rifle concept guns. A .30-30 Winchester in Marlin 336 with a scope is a Very Flexible Rifle. .30-30 is even more flexible in a bolt action because you can load pointed nose bullets instead of flat or round-nosed, but the fast reaction qualities of the lever put it almost on par with an assault/defensive rifle. Not going to discuss the Winchester lever varmint rifles, although Marlin in the 197s brought back the .45-70 from extinction with their 1895 models and pioneered the .444 Marlin which is a great weapon for anyone already casting bullets for the .44magnum.
Killing deer or big game is not magic. Just takes good bullet placement and skill. Might also take some great tracking skills to recover your meat! So you must consider caliber and bullet weight in your decisionmaking.
About the best all-around ctg for N. America is the .30-06 Springfield. Still can get cheap surplus ammo for it. Great Variety of bullet weights available. Handloading really makes it versatile. The Ackley Improved version is almost on-par with the short mags and .300 Win Mag. Yet you get long barel life unlike the magnums. Almost any bolt rifle made comes in .30-06, except the short and shorty action models.
The .30-06 has been eclipsed, if you can consider the whys, by the .308Winchester. The M14/M1a is a better fighting and target rifle than the M1 Garand. The .308 is a short-action capable round, almost as much power, better accuracy at the target range. Not better in a bolt rifle, unless you are military sniper, but aside from a few Remington 700 Senderos made in .30-06 and .270Winchester, the .308, .243Win, .260Rem, and 7mm/08 are the longrange accuracy ctgs of choice. All are based on the .308Win/7.62Nato.
Gonna use more than a 180gr bullet? Maybe you need a .30-06 or .300Win Mag? Want blazing fast velocity for varmints? Maybe you need a .243 or .260rem? Yet, if you handload, you can likely do it all with the .308. 125gr to 200gr.
more... Quoting: Lester
.338 Lapua or .338 Norma if you can get it. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 65489
United States
10/31/2009 7:47 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Things get so bad that guns are a prerequisite to survival then you can count on a few things happening. First remember that the nail that sticks up gets hammered down. Think long and hard on that one.
Black guns invoke fear and will make you a target.
Life goes on. Wife and kids will not be going for groceries or to the dentist toting an AK. An easily concealed pistol will therefore be the weapon of choice in urban environments.
There is not enough wild game in the CONUS to support 300 million+ people when tshtf. Therefore hunting rifles will be depreciated and again an easy to carry pistol will be the weapon of choice. A pistol that is accurate, can take game and provide enough firepower for defense is therefore highly desirable.
This is not advise. A 22 cal. Ruger Mark III type pistol with red dot scope will take game, offer protection and firepower in a package that will allow the shooter to carry a meaningful supply of ammunition while remaining mobile.
To survive you've got to move. Anything you can't carry on your person is nothing but trash. I'd take 500 rds. of 22 cal. vs 180 rds. of 7.62X39 any day.
Luck to you.
P.S.
Next time someone scoffs at 22 cal. think of this: would you stand there and let a skilled shooter double tap you in the heart with a 22? |
| Kirk
User ID: 749840
United States
10/31/2009 8:42 PM
 | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
.
The cheapy scopes are just that; not terribly reliable, but they do work. Just avoid the dinky 3/4" old Weaver and Tasco .22 scopes. A 1" scope or even 30mm tubed scope will serve on your .22 or maybe on another rifle later.
May as well speak about aiming: Quoting: Lester
every 40 dollar 22 scope anyone in my family had failed within a year. I put a weaver on my 22 - going strong 10 years later
pride of lions...gaggle of geese...a murder of crows...and my favorite....A CONGRESS of baboons.... |
| Lester
User ID: 805761
United States
11/1/2009 12:37 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
If you are a handloader, the advent of Reloader 17 powder could be just the thing to enable standard case rounds to shine in the velocity dept. Particularly the medium capacity cases that prefer moderate burning powders like 4895 and 4064. Of all these, the .284 winchester could be the mythical All-Around Rifle when setup to allow long VLD bullets. Would I go hunt brown bear with a 180gr 7mm? No. But with a magazine of Barnes 195gr, I might...
See this article if interested. (www.6mmbr.com/reloder17.html). The ability of RL-17 to produce high velocities with very minimal pressure is phenomenal. As G. Salazar notes, "this may be The powder for use with 210gr Bergers in the .30-06". Just might not need a magnum if you can send a 210 gr at more than 2600fps from an 06.
The article also discusses the benefits of RL17 in .338win.
It is my opinion that a survivalist gets minimal benefit from the big Barrel-Burner ctgs (anything with more capacity than the .300win). Who needs a cartridge that will burn its throat in 600-700 rds, take 90+ grains of powder to run and likely have short case life? Then there is cost...
If RL-17 with its moderate pressure will yield longer barrel life in notorious ctgs like .243win and 6.5/284, then those cartridges could go way beyond their specialty niches in longrange shooting. |
| Lester
User ID: 808787
United States
11/2/2009 2:16 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
When .22Lr junk-bulk retreads cost $33 for 500rds, it is time to consider handloading or .177 pellet guns...
Can still get a 500pk of decent pellets for under $10, maybe $6???
Consider that if you have a .223 or even better .218 Bee or .22 Hornet, you can load about 650 rds with one pound ($30) of powder. Cast your own bullets and costs are about nil for bullets, primers will cost about $35/1000
If you handload for the .357mag or use #2400 powder for other ctgs, the Hornet or better K-Hornet, will use the same powder.
Contrast these costs to the $8 or $9 cost for just decent .22LR ammo like Win or CCI in the 100 carton pkg and if you think your .22LR is a viable rifle at distance, how about a centerfire delivering its payload at up to 3000fps? The cheapest .224 dia bullets are about $35 per 500.
If you prefer the first-quality .22lr at $40 or $45 per 500, your cost is about $80 to load 500 rds of centerfire providing you have your old brass.
Primers last about 30 or 40 yrs if you keep them in orig cartons (NEVER remove unless loading), and powder will last almost as long if temp and humidity are halfway controlled. Bullets and brass indefinitely if kept away from water and corrosives.
If you are figuring the real value of the .22LR is for pest control, think again. A pellet gun might be even better. For sure it is now lots more economical. Yet, if you handload and cast your own bullets, any non-magnum centerfire rifle ctg handloaded with a cast bullet at mild velocity will destroy less meat if you are small game hunting.
Is the .22LR still the bargain of the century? Maybe not! |
| neteru<>
User ID: 806777
United States
11/2/2009 2:24 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
How many here close one eye while shooting? Quoting: UD 473832
it can help with alignment of front and rear sights.
We have finally come back to the pre-Socratic philosopher Heraclitus, who said everything is flow, flux, process. There are no "things." |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 713601
United States
11/2/2009 2:30 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Definitions ... that pesky thing that your English teacher, Science teacher, and Geography teacher used to hammer you on when you wrote papers is what is critical here.
WHAT is meant by the word "Survival" in the headline?
*Long term survival away from "home" where you have what you can physically carry for months on end (without a motor vehicle of your own)?
*Being at home barricaded in?
*Being with a group of people who can travel as a "pack".
WHAT is the time frame that you NEED to "Survive"?
Answer those questions first and you probably get your answer as to what you NEED.
What you may really NEED if long term means many years on end without outside supplies being available is a Bow & Arrow with a few spears ... ala the American Indians.
I really get a kick out of these people who list about 10 different guns in their post as to what you need for "Survival". I highly doubt that in a true SHTF situation with NO motorized transit available and a need to physically move to stay safe they are going to really be taking those 10 different guns with all the ammo necessary on their backs, or even in a wheelbarrow. |
| Lester
User ID: 808787
United States
11/2/2009 4:09 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
If you read the first post which I timed out while writing, you will get the premise.
Survival Guns was Mel Tappan's prolific examination of the gun topic in relation to the SURVIVALIST movement of the late 70s. This thread is in the same context.
A Survivalist is a person who has judged the social and economic clime and decided to greatly reduce their exposure to risk that city or suburban and dependent lifestyles entail.
A Survivalist has moved his/her family and changed their lifestyle to avoid unnecessary exposure to the risks that dense populations of unprepared persons will bring. A Survivalist has moved "out of the line of fire" and does not prepare to survive numerous fire-fights, or expect to "patrol" their neighborhood. A secure, rural location that is largely self-sufficient is the goal of proper Survivalism and planning.
Not that you need a lot of weapons. You only "need" what you have understanding and vision to use. Guns are tools. Ammunition and handloading the way they are manifested to best use.
Self-defense is the main priority. You can hunt, when/if it ever becomes safe to do so again in the years ahead, with an AR or M1 type rifle. Unlikely you can defend your home with a hunting rifle.
Read the thread. Having a versatile selection of firearms is a Good Thing; if you have a place and mindset to know what they can do for you and yours. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 892075
United States
2/15/2010 11:55 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Some Observations:
Nikon Buckmasters scopes with side-focus or older A/O parallax are among the best buys for quality performance. Buy the Mil-Dot reticle and you may eventually go for higher-cost scopes, but doubt you will get rid of your Buckmasters.
It would seem that having extra scopes, mounts and rings could be among the finest barter items you could lay in.
For an all-around weapon and game gathering tool, it is hard to beat a quality make A2 configured AR-15 with 1:8 twist 20" barrel. Maybe you run some light bullets for varminting, but the real emphasis is on 75/77 grain performance. Target bullets will take big game and deliver longrange precision & accuracy. Very affordable to handload your own matchgrade ammunition with basic tools. If starting from scratch, look at a Dillon 550b. For about $450 you could be ready to go with your AR-15 components and load about 250rds per hour. Figure 5lbs of RL15 at $100 or 8lbs of Varget at $150, plus Rem #7-1/2 primers at $35 per 1000. You get about 280rds per lb of powder so that works out to 2.2K rds using an 8lb jug of Varget.
There is a firm (tjconevera.com) selling 500 processed 1x LC and WCC brass plus factory box of 600 Hornady 75gr BTHP match bullets for $133 shipped! Match ammunition is running about $1.50 per round from Black Hills or Federal. Do the math!
$600 for brass and bullets (2k/2.4k)
$220 for primers and 8lbs powder
$500 for Dillon 550b, scale, die set & conversion...
Or pay $3000 for 2K rds of match ammo and have no loading equipment to use your fired brass on... Save about 60% on the ammunition and have your brass and loading gear ready to go.
Second 2000 rds you load, all you need is bullets, primers & powder... Cost you same $220 for primers Maybe this time you buy 5000 75gr match bullets from wideners.com for about $110 per Thousand. With your own gear and fired brass, your cost is now down to $440 per 2,000rds of match ammo... Call it $20 per 100rds. Hell, .22lr is now $8/100 unless you buy the bulk crap.
Observations: 75gr bullet at 2750fps is about all you need, anywhere except hunting something that might eat you. |
| Lester
User ID: 892075
United States
2/16/2010 12:00 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Great to do a reply that was mainly about handloading .223 remington and have it post up as #556... |
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