| | | Page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 | Survival Guns discussed
| Lester
User ID: 475435
7/29/2008 12:36 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Great info guys. Who keeps up with all the obscure ctgs? Sure, there are many that are superb, but how practical is it to own a rifle you can't resupply? We are talking Survivalist applications here.
My perspective is that between the .223 and .308, ninety percent of the potentials are covered. If you live anywhere without Big Game, the .223 (with 20" 1:7 barrel)will likely do all you need it to accomplish. It is a matter of bullet weight. 75/77 gr match bullets are damn tough and longrange capable. They will take game like deer very capably, or use the Nosler 60gr partition.
The .308Win is superior in accuracy potential to the .30-06 and enables the big game hunter to take large game with a Defensive rifle. I load 180gr Speer Grand Slam bullets for hunting, and 168 Hornadys for general use. Used to buy Sierra matchkings but the price spike on them was too much.
There is no reason to have to limit your resources to one cartridge for a Working rifle, but choosing either the .308 or .223 would not be limiting if you do so with an open mind. Not like the .223Rem will make the best deer ctg in dense brush, but the heavy bullets won't blow up on twigs and will penetrate well. Knowing how to track your game would be a must. The .308 is much better for game-getting, but weighs more and is more expensive to load. Choices....
How often will a survivalist actually be engaged in hunting? Seems more important to have the Defensive capability at all times and carry ammunition for hunting opportunities if the situation presents. |
| malu 
User ID: 421073
7/29/2008 12:43 PM
 | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Not wanting to enter the 30 cal debate I will however say that the 30-06 is one of the most proven hunting and sniper rounds to date and is the parent of both the .270 and the 25-06. Quoting: Prof_Rabbit
here is a link to the DCMP, they sell surplus ammo, last i checked they had a lot of 30.06 available, also a good place to learn the fundamentals of shooting, and if you shoot and qualify, you can pick up a M1 Garand at a reasonable price:
[link to www.odcmp.com]
When peaceful revolution becomes impossible, violent revolution becomes inevitable.
"Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking." |
| Lester
User ID: 475435
7/29/2008 4:00 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Handloading for .30cal Working Rifles:
Lots of flexibility and power here. Pretty much leaves out the 7.62x39 for a number of reasons; bullet diameter is .310 rather than .308 is a biggie, ctg length for magazine length loading restricts you to 125gr bullets, Minimal velocity is another, not to mention Berdan priming on most all cases. So, unless you do a custom barreled rifle, and you can buy a better rifle for the same money, your AK won't really serve.
The .30-30Win is not a bad choice. Very flexible especially if in a bolt rifle or magazine fed lever rifle like the Browning or Savage 99. Lots of potential for 100gr plinker bullets up to 170gr flat points. Great rifle in the 336 Marlin or Savage 99 because receiver is flat topped and easily mounts a scope. Sure, can scope a Winchester with a side-mount but and offset scope is not very precise.
Best choice imho is the .308Win. 100gr to 180 maybe 200gr bullet range, more custom and premium bullets for the .30 than any other caliber. Lots of molds available for casting. Saves about 15-20gr of powder when compared to .30-06. Defensive rifle can serve as hunting/working rifle; ONLY CAVEAT is the semi-auto won't stand up to Max-loads. Need a bolt rifle for max loads like the Palma shooters use for 1000 yd competition. Great bullets from lapua, sierra, Hornady and others.
.30-06. THE GREAT ALL-AROUND RIFLE! It really is, especially if you go Ackley Improved, but burns lots more powder than the .308 and not as accurate, or Garand shooters would have won over the M14 shooters. Garand is a nice rifle. 8 rd clip is a bit hard to use for sporting purposes, rifles are heavy & long; but they work fine. Takes slow-burning powder to build high-velocity in the 06. Slow powders like IMR 4350 are very bad choice in the Garand or other semi-auto. 06 Ackley Improved is almost like a magnum, but has the long barrel life. .308/.30-06 are long barrel-life ctgs. Very good choice for survivalist use for that reason alone. When & where will you get another barrel?
The .300Winchester is THE longrange ctg of choice. Sure there are bigger ctgs and maybe the .30-338 is "better" (smaller case, better optimized), but the .300Win Mag is available. If you are going to hunt Moose, Elk, Brown Bear; the .300Win will work. If you will shoot longrange; the .300Win will work. If you burn lots of powder and shoot fast repetition rounds, you will burn up your barrel; yet, the .300Win can be loaded mild and although not as flexible as the .30-06 it is factory chambered in the Remington Sendero and other longrange rifles that are Ready To Go...
There are big magnums. .300Wby, .300Rem ultra, .30-378 etc and these are really just specialty items. Not too recomended unless you are a committed longrange hunter or sniper. If you're a sniper, probably want a 338ultra mag or .338 Lapua anyway.
Not much reason to go for a .50 Browning MG rifle. If you have a crew to spot and carry your rifle; go for it. But who really needs a 30+lb rifle? |
| Redtailhawk
User ID: 307126
7/29/2008 4:43 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
A nice 20 ga coach gun can liven up a party. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 475461
7/29/2008 4:46 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
I have used 150 grain bullets in 7.62x39 to hunt deer. The deer could not tell that the bullet was a hair slower than a 30-30. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 475636
7/29/2008 6:44 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
I had agonized over the selections in my mini-armory for about four years now. These are what I finally settled on... far from perfect, but I'd appreciate any observations or input.
Primary SHTF/Survival...
A Yugo SKS... the only alterations was the removal of the grenade launcher, and the addition of adjustable aperture sights. The 7.62x39 round seemed adequate for 'all-around' use. My goal was basically affordable/available ammo and a comparable 30-30 semi-auto.
A Glock-22... I probably should have gone with a .45 ACP. But the 40 seems to be a pretty adequate caliber, plus it matches the G-23 that I carry 24/7, and my wife's Kahr PM-40. I also purchased a .22LR conversion kit for the G-22, because the .22LR is the ultimate survival cartridge in my opinion. I also bought a Lone Wolf 9mm Barrel and Magazines in order to convert the G-23.
The rest of my shelf contains a Mossberg 825 Ulti-mag, a BLR in 30-06 for hunting. I probably should have gone with .308, but the available loadings for the '06 enables me to be particular about shooting a wide variety of critters from a small antelope to a mo-hunkin' moose. I've also accumulated a variety of .22LR firearms... Mark I and Bearcat Rugers, A Mossberg 70, Marlin 60 and a Ruger 10/22 which I'm considering spending some time and money on making all fancy and evil-looking.
All in all, I think it's a pretty comprehensive collection. All I need to do now is hoard as much ammo as I can get my greedy little hands on. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 475435
7/30/2008 12:36 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
I guess you'll have to critique your own gear.
I went to AR-10s after deciding my M1a was a bit old and not as adaptable. The AR-10 really does it all much better imho. I like the A4 flat tops for mounting scopes, I like the many accessories available, like the ease with which uppers can be mounted and barrels can be swapped. The stock system is superior to any garand style, real easy to free-float your barrel. Don't take voodoo to get a sub moa rifle.
In my book, all the boys that carp/harp about "reliability" are planning a blaze of glory demise like Holden/Borgnine in The Wild Bunch. Not me. My rifles and ammunition are dependable and I'm not going to be swimming through any swamps on recon missions; neither are you! But each to their own.
You can shoot deer with an AR-15 or AR-10. The deer will die. A 75gr match bullet will out penetrate a 150fmj from a .308 at 600yds. If what you have is a 7.62x39 or a .30-30; or hell, even a bow & arrow: you gotta work to your advantages. Prolly kill that deer cleaner with a broadhead from 30 feet than you will with a rifle. I've been that close to whitetails with a bow. Not planning on ever getting that close to an enemy, want a rifle accurate enough that will do the job from a distance, but is still very fast for follow up shots and quick to reacquire a new target. The AR-15 is very capable in that dept. Shoot 10 aimed shots with a service rifle in 70seconds. I found that I shot way too fast, but still scored very high.
Hits are what count. You can kill a whitetail deer with a .223 more important that you can defend yourself ably. Firing an aimed shot and hitting within 2-3" at 200yds every shot in 45-50 seconds is pretty decent, especially when not firing from a benchrest or bipod.
Guys talk about tight groups, but can you hit a grapefruit at 200yds using only a sling and aperture sights? Mild recoil makes for fast recovery. Easy to learn to lube the rifle and that is more critical than "keeping it clean". Maybe so often you scrape some carbon off your bolt carrier and clean your extractor. Maybe real often if you are in the shit. I have never been "there", but how tough is it to clean your rifle if your life is at stake?
They say, "Don't bet against the man with one rifle"; implying he KNOWS how and where that gun shoots. One rifle, maybe another identical for backup; serving both Defense and Working/Hunting purposes is a great solution. If you want to own more; own more. I own a bunch of rifles and live where I can use them. I handload and cast bullets.
Have a tool for every job you envision if it pleases you.
Being able to bring accurate fire easily at 300-500yds and carry 2x the ammunition which the AR-15 allows me to accomplish makes it pretty difficult NOT to choose it as best all-around rifle. Especially when loaded with heavy match bullets.
If I am going hunting, with a license and all that; no, I will take a bolt rifle for big game. Yet, the 75gr match bullet will take big game if you shoot correctly and hunt. I'm planning on letting snares do more of my hunting anyway, but the .223 will do the job if you can deploy it correctly. Ultimately, you will live/die with your decisions. Good luck! |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
7/30/2008 2:35 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Great info guys. Who keeps up with all the obscure ctgs? Sure, there are many that are superb, but how practical is it to own a rifle you can't resupply? We are talking Survivalist applications here. Quoting: Lester
In a true survivalist application you have one rifle, one shotgun and one pistol, ideally that would be .308, 12 gauge and 9mm or .45ACP.
Lets be honest, hunting will take up 99% of your ammo, defense is something you hope to avoid, most people will have a few other rifles, including a .22 rimfire, smaller center fire and perhaps a .22 pistol.
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Lester
User ID: 475435
7/30/2008 3:26 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Prof,
From a pure survivalist perspective, limit the cartridges your weapons are chambered for, but NOT the number of weapons!
Got a family? Each needs a handgun, preferably a pistol.
Each needs a rifle.
Shotguns are superfluous for defense.
Planning on hunting to supply much of your food? The presumption could be deadly.
Each family member does need access to their own means of personal self-defense. Maybe your kids are too young? Yet, a 5-6 yr old could be trusted with a .22 rifle. A 8-10 yr old could handle and be trusted with a .22 pistol. Having a weapon is vital when you need one.
If you are alone, not a bad idea to have several pistols and rifles. They can be in the same chambering for easy supply and handloading. Maybe a small frame .45acp for public carry and a full frame for at home wear? A semi-auto defense rifle and a short carbine or precision bolt rifle? A Colt 1911 and a S&W revolver in .45acp would be versatile, or a Ruger blackhawk in 45colt w/.45acp cylinder. The blackhawk in .357 w/9mm Luger cylinder is a neat combo Working handgun. |
| Winningjob
User ID: 385114
7/30/2008 3:36 AM | | Anonymous Coward
User ID: 464984
7/30/2008 5:23 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
I guess you'll have to critique your own gear.
I went to AR-10s after deciding my M1a was a bit old and not as adaptable. The AR-10 really does it all much better imho. I like the A4 flat tops for mounting scopes, I like the many accessories available, like the ease with which uppers can be mounted and barrels can be swapped. The stock system is superior to any garand style, real easy to free-float your barrel. Don't take voodoo to get a sub moa rifle.
In my book, all the boys that carp/harp about "reliability" are planning a blaze of glory demise like Holden/Borgnine in The Wild Bunch. Not me. My rifles and ammunition are dependable and I'm not going to be swimming through any swamps on recon missions; neither are you! But each to their own.
You can shoot deer with an AR-15 or AR-10. The deer will die. A 75gr match bullet will out penetrate a 150fmj from a .308 at 600yds. If what you have is a 7.62x39 or a .30-30; or hell, even a bow & arrow: you gotta work to your advantages. Prolly kill that deer cleaner with a broadhead from 30 feet than you will with a rifle. I've been that close to whitetails with a bow. Not planning on ever getting that close to an enemy, want a rifle accurate enough that will do the job from a distance, but is still very fast for follow up shots and quick to reacquire a new target. The AR-15 is very capable in that dept. Shoot 10 aimed shots with a service rifle in 70seconds. I found that I shot way too fast, but still scored very high.
Hits are what count. You can kill a whitetail deer with a .223 more important that you can defend yourself ably. Firing an aimed shot and hitting within 2-3" at 200yds every shot in 45-50 seconds is pretty decent, especially when not firing from a benchrest or bipod.
Guys talk about tight groups, but can you hit a grapefruit at 200yds using only a sling and aperture sights? Mild recoil makes for fast recovery. Easy to learn to lube the rifle and that is more critical than "keeping it clean". Maybe so often you scrape some carbon off your bolt carrier and clean your extractor. Maybe real often if you are in the shit. I have never been "there", but how tough is it to clean your rifle if your life is at stake?
They say, "Don't bet against the man with one rifle"; implying he KNOWS how and where that gun shoots. One rifle, maybe another identical for backup; serving both Defense and Working/Hunting purposes is a great solution. If you want to own more; own more. I own a bunch of rifles and live where I can use them. I handload and cast bullets.
Have a tool for every job you envision if it pleases you.
Being able to bring accurate fire easily at 300-500yds and carry 2x the ammunition which the AR-15 allows me to accomplish makes it pretty difficult NOT to choose it as best all-around rifle. Especially when loaded with heavy match bullets.
If I am going hunting, with a license and all that; no, I will take a bolt rifle for big game. Yet, the 75gr match bullet will take big game if you shoot correctly and hunt. I'm planning on letting snares do more of my hunting anyway, but the .223 will do the job if you can deploy it correctly. Ultimately, you will live/die with your decisions. Good luck! Quoting: Anonymous Coward 475435
My HK91 is aging, I've been considering an M1A for replacement, should probably look more into those "new fangled" AR10s. lol There is an AR15 in my mini arsenal (my wife's rifle) and it is a good performer.
In the Army I qualified forty for forty every time, and pissed off the local "sniper" shooters when I smoked them and their fancy scoped bolt guns with my Iron sighted HK shooting off hand at three to five hundred yards. (though she does wear a scope these days, age is not a shooters friend as vision fades and the hands shake just a tiny bit more than they used to) Still, ain't many 'round these parts that shoot better than myself.
My collection includes:
HK91 .308 caliber
AR15 .223
Marlin lever action .30.30
Ruger No.1 in .300 Weatherby
Marlin .22
Ruger 10/22
Remington 870 (12 gauge)
RWS Model 48 .22
Handguns include:
S&W M29 .44 mag
S&W 2 inch .357 Mag (I forget the model, my wife's carry gun)
S&W Chief's Special 9mm
HK USP45
Ruger MKII .22
Barretta .25
And a lovely pair of Polished stainless Ruger Vaqueros in .45LC just for fun.
Not much by some of you alls standards I'm sure, but enough to arm me and mine, maybe even a couple of the inlaws that will inevitably show up. |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
7/30/2008 10:37 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Prof,
From a pure survivalist perspective, limit the cartridges your weapons are chambered for, but NOT the number of weapons! Quoting: Lester
Sorry I should have added the rider "for each person"
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Prof_Rabbit
User ID: 148352
7/30/2008 10:47 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Prof,
Shotguns are superfluous for defense. Quoting: Lester
Many would argue otherwise.
Planning on hunting to supply much of your food? The presumption could be deadly. Quoting: Lester
I grew up in rural Australia, without modern conveniences including electricity, now passing 50 I believe I have an understanding of how to live in difficult times.
"Anger is a wind that blows out the lamp of your mind" |
| Lester
User ID: 476021
7/30/2008 12:05 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Not picking on "prof" here; but consider the survival by hunting scenario.
1) How many people in your county or within 25mi in all directions?
2) Do you live on a fenced game preserve?
3) How far must you travel to begin "hunting" if game does not wander by your back door?
4) How much food are you making available to your family?
I'm sure more questions could be included but this gets the point across; IF you don't have food stored and under your control, you don't have it. There will be competition for game. How close do you live to it? Will you risk traveling? Who will watch/defend your home & family?
Unless you live in Wilderness Isolation, hunting will be pretty risky business; at least in the first 6-12 mos of a collapse. How will you travel when the roads are being watched constantly? Figure this will be the stop at the liquor store and pick up pizza kind of typical hunting trip? Like your usual adventure at your lease or on BLM land with your buddies?
If you reside on property that borders good habitat for deer and other game animals, maybe you can preserve the habitat and take some animals; maybe not.
Rather doubtful that "hunting" will be an option. Much more effective to have stored up protein than have to go get it. Game will likely be quickly overhunted and scarce, unless you bait or plant food to attract it.
Can you afford to risk the loss of time and effort that hunting requires? When you are hunting, you aren't doing anything else to improve your personal situation. If you have thought of everything else, don't neglect storing up enough food. Better the bird in the can (canned whole chickens) than two in the woods... |
| Lester
User ID: 476021
7/30/2008 5:36 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Scopesights and Optics for the Survival Guns Crowd:
For many, the precision and fast response of the military Aperture sight or match target sight system is all that is necessary. Yet, there is much opportunity to be gained with a quality precision optic.
In the arena of the AR-10 & AR-15 rifles, the A2 carry handle with integral Aperture sight system is a bit ungainly for scope mounting. Yet, the Leupold 1-4x and other light/short carbine scopes can work very well in a carryhandle mount. They are quickly detachable and fast responding when in place. Trijicon ACOG and Reflex sights are also very capable and have tritium coated reticles for immediate recognition in the dark. A plus if you are operating at night. Maybe you will be?
I have found the carryhandle mounted Reflex scope to be excellent, lightweight and durable. Very fast reticle recognition with the 12moa triangle which is a good choice for this optic. With the polaroid filtering attachment, this optic can be indexed so fixed sights can also be used. In overcast conditions, you may want to remove the Reflex, but this is easily done. In the event you choose an A2 AR-15 or 10 with 20" barrel, look at these sights if you want a fast response non-electric sight.
Other A2 sights beyond the ACOGs include the Burris Compact variables, and Leupold 3-9x compacts. The Leupold Mk4 1.5-5x is also an option along with the VX-III version. 1" tube scopes will be more at home on the carryhandle than will 30mm tubes.
With Either AR in A4, flat-top receiver configuration, the choices are unlimited. The built-in Picatinny spec rail system on these rifles makes them, undoubtedly, the best quality Defense rifle for the survivalist who will employ optics.
The A4 design is further assisted by the use of Quick Detach scope mounts and riser rails. The LaRue designs are th finest of this sort. If you utilize the LaRue 110, your scope can double on any other rifle with Picatinny rail mounting system. By using a Scope Collimator with a grid, you can note your Zeroes, mount the scope on another rifle, and using the collimator, return the scope to zero for that rifle. Very flexible and valuable tool to have.
The A-4 does require a taller scope ring than those used on most bolt rifles. Stock design and receiver height is the reason. The LaRue or other risers, used in conjunction with Low or Medium rings enables swapping scopes without moving the rings. If you use a break-release torque wrench to torque the scope rings to the base at consistent uniform rate (40-65 INCH pounds), your results will be dependable and your mount rock solid. Similarly, you might consider using 18 Inch lbs for scope ring screws and about 30-35 for fastening scope bases to bolt rifles or others w/o integral mounts.
More.... |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 476021
7/30/2008 6:03 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Scopesights contd:
Presuming that we will now discuss scopes for bolt rifles and A-4 type AR rifles, here are some ideas:
The BEST: This always seems to be a concern. Some gear whores have to own THE BEST. In scopesights that are precision longrange capable this typically means Schmidt & Bender PMII types, US Optics SN type, NightForce NXS type, Zeiss German-made, and Leupold Mark 4 type. Some also like the IOR Valdada scopes, but since IOR has no service or technical employees in the USA, and their products are very heavy and problem-prone, I will issue caveats....
Unless you are a dedicated sniper or gear snob, those $2000+ optics are just a bit much. For sure they weigh a lot. If you are going to be hunting or stalking any kind of prey, you are going to really rue the day you chose "the best". A long-assed, heavy scope; no matter how fine its capabilities becomes a boat anchor after a few miles. Laying in the grass, behind an Accuracy Intl or Sako TRG42 Lapua maggie on a bipod and scoping prospects 1400yds away is one thing; but are you envisioning that as your potential daily reality? Probably not! So, this leaves out even the somewhat moderately priced NightForce variables aside from the 1-4x and the 2.5-10x BOTH OF WHICH ARE GREAT CHOICES FOR THE AR PLATFORM OR A SERIOUS HEAVY BRUSH HUNTER.
What scopes remain, if you want Quality, Performance, and Lightweight? My vote goes to Leupold. Especially the Mark 4 Fixed magnification models for being especially rugged. The first real sniper scope the military adapted was the Ultra 10x in M3 turret style. Still a great choice in Mark 4 designation. Leupold in the last few years has changed their variable longrange scopes to Mark 4 labels. Of these, probably the 3.5-10x 40mm, 4.5-14x 40 or 50mm, and 6.5-20x are the most versatile. All are lightweight compared to other makers offerings. The 4.5-14x has 100moa turret range which is about the best Leupold offers unless you go with the 16x fixed power Mark 4.
The Leupold 4.5-14x is a very short tubed scope, weighs about 18 or 20 ounces, and has Illumination options plus the desirabe Tactical Milling Reticle. No, it is not a First Focal Plane reticle, maybe the new 09 models will be? Are you gonna wait to buy one? You may just have to wait forever. There is a FFP reticle in the 3.5-10x mk4 series however. Having owned this scope before, I like the 50mm 4.5-14 better.
Probably the most versatile and dependable scope Leupold ever offered is the 6x mark 4. Hasn't been offered for almost 10yrs, but desirable. A 6x is extremely versatile and usable under almost any circumstance. Nikon, Leupold, Burris, and others offer very good hunting quality 6x scopes. If you want a longrange precision with mil-dot reticle, 30mm tube & 70 moa reticle movement; you gotta have the mk4. Leupold did recently offer the M-8 target 6x w/AO, target turrets and mil-dot. A very nice optic for precision shooting. Nice thing about Leupold, they will change reticles and turret systems for you (at extra cost), but have lots of options. The leupold warranty is about as good as they come. Try Ebay or your pawnbroker for good deals on Leupold scopes. |
| Enigma
User ID: 476189
7/30/2008 6:03 PM
 | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
survival gun is the one you have with you when you need to survive...
that said, I prefer to hunt with a .300 win mag for whitetails to moose and anything in between. I would not hesitate to use it on Bear or anything else except maybe a cape buffalo, and these days if I face one of those bastards, I'm thinnking .50 BMG
I've shot a lot of game and the .30 caliber bullets do the trick.
I'M ABSOLUTELY SURE, my G3 with a stang mount Schmidt and Bender 2.5x10 scope would be FINE for surviving, but the whole rig is a tad heavy....
WHATEVER rig you decide on, get first rate optics as that is the edge you need. Iron sights are a good backup, but so 19th century...
when I wanna reach out and touch something a LONG ways away, I use OPTICS
scopes are NOT an Enigma, but a necessity
"knowing and not DOING, is like NOT KNOWING at all" |
| Lester
User ID: 476021
7/30/2008 6:22 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Generally, tactical scope rings and bases will provide the best performance in terms of durability, precision, and quality. Near Manufacturing of alberta canada is about the best maker of bases for bolt rifles. His stuff is like fine jewelry. Badger Ordnance, Warne, Farrell ind, Smith Entps, Tactical Precision, are all fine choices for rings and bases.
There are other less expensive scope options that are very well rated. The Burris Tactical line, European and Black Diamond models are well received, Millet and Bushnell are also highly thought of. One retailer, SWFA, has the factory that made the Tasco Sniper series producing the same scope for his firm in 10x, 16x, and 24x fixed power models. There is even a new line from England called "Falcon Menace" which is well regarded. Probably the best value for quality in the mid range pricewise are the American Zeiss Conquest scopes.
Reticles:
A duplex scope offers some utility for range estimation. If you know the distance between the heavy and fine stadia wires and always range at the same magnification, you can interpolate range with some accuracy. A better choice for longrange shooting is the Mil-Dot and Tactical Milling Reticle and the many proprietary variants on the theme. Basically, you have hashmarks to enable precise ranging/determination of distance for your target. With precision turrets, you dial the distance, adjust for windage and fire. The hashmarks also allow fast response holdover/under and hold offs for windage as well. Learn to use this reticle and you can leave your rangefinder at home.
Many other reticles out there. The Wide Duplex is great for many purposes, the Heavy Duplex is probably better for a variable scope that will be used in the woods. The german sytle 3 or 4 pointed post reticle is very fast for snap shooting. The Single post is rather limited and archaic. New fast recognition reticles are often illuminated and may combine a circle and 2-4moa dot with other lines as well. The NightForce NXS circle/dot reticle is Very Fast, but the Leupold variation also enables some holdover and holdoff which makes it very useful. NXS is a great scope, but the reticle could be better. |
| Lester
User ID: 476021
7/30/2008 6:40 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
I like a .338 magnum, Enigma. But what I am coming around to is the effectiveness of the .308 or .223 in AR platform is hard to surpass. A .300Win Mag with 200gr Matchking is very capable, but not a fast reaction tool.
Hunting will not be an activity for me.
Probably won't do any sniping, yet having a 22" barreled precision AR-10 weapon with a 4.5-14x and TMR reticle gives me great longrange capacity. The scope is pretty lightweight. A little long on a 16" AR-10 carbine, but light enough to use and it fits w/o the sunshade.
S&B 2.5-10x or a Zeiss Diavari (same design) is a Great all around scope. Yet without target turrets or mildot the scope lacks a bit of versatility. I had a Zeiss 1.5-6x and it was great, but too long a tube for me, plus the turret and reticle was not what I wanted.
I am thinking Defensive first priority, ALWAYS, and be able to take game when you encounter the opportunity. Is it humane to hunt moose with a .223? Not really, but bet you can kill one with a 75gr match bullet. I have never found one of these blown up; they hold together. The .308 would be better, but the .223 will do. I will not be trophy hunting. Won't be hunting at all.
You are right about having a gun to survive with. Having a rifle that can pack about 700rds of ammunition into one .50bmg ammo can is a real plus. That the ammo is very accurate and has a 75gr bullet that is tough as nails is also a plus. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 464984
7/30/2008 7:43 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
survival gun is the one you have with you when you need to survive...
that said, I prefer to hunt with a .300 win mag for whitetails to moose and anything in between. I would not hesitate to use it on Bear or anything else except maybe a cape buffalo, and these days if I face one of those bastards, I'm thinnking .50 BMG
I've shot a lot of game and the .30 caliber bullets do the trick.
I'M ABSOLUTELY SURE, my G3 with a stang mount Schmidt and Bender 2.5x10 scope would be FINE for surviving, but the whole rig is a tad heavy....
WHATEVER rig you decide on, get first rate optics as that is the edge you need. Iron sights are a good backup, but so 19th century...
when I wanna reach out and touch something a LONG ways away, I use OPTICS
scopes are NOT an Enigma, but a necessity Quoting: Enigma
The G3 platform is only a couple three pounds heavier than the AR, if memory serves.
I've had this setup for twenty years now:
[link to i35.photobucket.com]
[link to i35.photobucket.com]
A very sturdy mounting system that detaches in seconds, and actually STAYS zeroed on reattachment.
Genuine HK equipment, I've seen many after market copies that did not seem as good.
That rifle even after all this time has never malfunctioned and still delivers .3 moa with the right ammo. Under 1moa with most.
Big enough to handle any North American game. |
| Lester
User ID: 476021
7/30/2008 10:13 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
H-K 91 is a really nice rifle.
I had a Hensoldt fero z24 scope that I used on my AR-10 carbine for a year. Very nice scope but no adj diopter. Sold it. Have seen those used on A2 carryhandles and tried it out on my own A2. Really like the turret design as it is much like the M3 Leupold turret, but better in several ways.
H-K is probably too valuable to shoot.
One Big Negative for me, a handloader, is the H-K polygonal barrel chamber really chews up the brass shoulders. Crimps them in a uniform way, not good for reloading.
The AR-10 w/o scope weighs about 9lbs depending on barrel diameter. Add another lb or 180z for a loaded 20rd mag and a scope and you are around 12.5 lbs on a heavy barrel rig.
Enjoy that H-K, hope you got parts kits when they were cheap. |
| Omega
User ID: 363643
7/30/2008 10:22 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
H-K 91 is a really nice rifle.
I had a Hensoldt fero z24 scope that I used on my AR-10 carbine for a year. Very nice scope but no adj diopter. Sold it. Have seen those used on A2 carryhandles and tried it out on my own A2. Really like the turret design as it is much like the M3 Leupold turret, but better in several ways.
H-K is probably too valuable to shoot.
One Big Negative for me, a handloader, is the H-K polygonal barrel chamber really chews up the brass shoulders. Crimps them in a uniform way, not good for reloading.
The AR-10 w/o scope weighs about 9lbs depending on barrel diameter. Add another lb or 180z for a loaded 20rd mag and a scope and you are around 12.5 lbs on a heavy barrel rig.
Enjoy that H-K, hope you got parts kits when they were cheap. Quoting: Lester
Hi Lester, I appreciate your scope/CQB ar15 recommendations you posted earlier today. I am comparing some right now here:
[link to www.swfa.com]
If you know of a cheaper place please lemme know. Of course it's the SP1 so I am also looking for a good mount for this weapon....
Regards.....
Handguns are a skill; shotguns an art; rifles a science.
_____________________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner.
Disarmament is the precursor to Genocide.
Better to take action now rather than chances later. Your choice. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 464984
7/30/2008 10:32 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
H-K 91 is a really nice rifle.
I had a Hensoldt fero z24 scope that I used on my AR-10 carbine for a year. Very nice scope but no adj diopter. Sold it. Have seen those used on A2 carryhandles and tried it out on my own A2. Really like the turret design as it is much like the M3 Leupold turret, but better in several ways.
H-K is probably too valuable to shoot.
One Big Negative for me, a handloader, is the H-K polygonal barrel chamber really chews up the brass shoulders. Crimps them in a uniform way, not good for reloading.
The AR-10 w/o scope weighs about 9lbs depending on barrel diameter. Add another lb or 180z for a loaded 20rd mag and a scope and you are around 12.5 lbs on a heavy barrel rig.
Enjoy that H-K, hope you got parts kits when they were cheap. Quoting: Lester
She is aging, I do want to rebuild the roller locks, everything checks out fine but those are known to break in time. I have already replaced the stock and recoil spring. And you're right about the brass, it is pretty well bent beyond any hope of resizing. I don't think reloading them is even possible.
But damn does she ever shoot straight.
The weight on your AR sounds comparable. Heavy but not too much for a big guy. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 476021
7/30/2008 11:02 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Hi Omega,
There are cheaper places than SWFA for sure. D&R will make competitive prices on Leupold and do free delivery and include rings or other stuff. dnrsports.com. Some of the vendors at ar15.com and snipershide.com are pretty aggressive. There are some vendors on Ebay that can be very good also.
I have really been going through the scopes in the past few years. I buy and sell until I find what works for me.
Refresh my memory about the SP1 and what rifle you intend to use it with and its purposes. I have the mk4 #56994 which has the SPR reticle. I had to look at the box to recall the reticle type. Maybe this is what you are referring to? It comes with only the .223 ballistic cam/turret cap. So $40 or $50 extra if you want the .308 cam. The turret/cams are different than the ones on the 3.5-10x longrange target. Same size but shorter. I mount my scope on the LaRue 110, as mentioned. I really like those QD risers. Have bought 3 on ar15.com at a decent price.
One reason the AR-10 and 15 are so Excellent is all the great triggers out there. Armalite has a very good one, Rock River Arms match trigger is good. White Oak Armament sells a nice RRA match trigger that has been done just right, and then there are the Custom Guys like Giesele (?sp), Accuracy Speaks, Compass Lake and many, many others.
The big problem with semi-autos like the H-K, FN, Sig, Cetme, and others (Except maybe Garand/M14/mini14) is the trigger pull. H-K made some real trick sniper rig with a great trigger but they were $4K back in the day. The AR beats everything else on this one aspect alone.
Lots of great AR builders. Noveske, GA Precision, White Oak Precision. Look at the Noveske barrels for AR-10 which he makes from machine gun barrel stock. GA Precision can put Krieger, Rock, Schneider, Obermeyer etc whatever you want or can furnish a blank. The Grendel and Beowulf, Socom and other custom chambered uppers are great for versatility.
What can be better than a semi-auto that shoots as accurately as the best bolt-gun? Especially when you factor in being able to change uppers in 10seconds.
The AR and the 1911 are simply the best going and fine triggers and accessories are the best reasons for choosing them. |
| Omega
User ID: 363643
7/30/2008 11:16 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Hi Omega,
There are cheaper places than SWFA for sure. D&R will make competitive prices on Leupold and do free delivery and include rings or other stuff. dnrsports.com. Some of the vendors at ar15.com and snipershide.com are pretty aggressive. There are some vendors on Ebay that can be very good also.
I have really been going through the scopes in the past few years. I buy and sell until I find what works for me.
Refresh my memory about the SP1 and what rifle you intend to use it with and its purposes. I have the mk4 #56994 which has the SPR reticle. I had to look at the box to recall the reticle type. Maybe this is what you are referring to? It comes with only the .223 ballistic cam/turret cap. So $40 or $50 extra if you want the .308 cam. The turret/cams are different than the ones on the 3.5-10x longrange target. Same size but shorter. I mount my scope on the LaRue 110, as mentioned. I really like those QD risers. Have bought 3 on ar15.com at a decent price.
One reason the AR-10 and 15 are so Excellent is all the great triggers out there. Armalite has a very good one, Rock River Arms match trigger is good. White Oak Armament sells a nice RRA match trigger that has been done just right, and then there are the Custom Guys like Giesele (?sp), Accuracy Speaks, Compass Lake and many, many others.
The big problem with semi-autos like the H-K, FN, Sig, Cetme, and others (Except maybe Garand/M14/mini14) is the trigger pull. H-K made some real trick sniper rig with a great trigger but they were $4K back in the day. The AR beats everything else on this one aspect alone.
Lots of great AR builders. Noveske, GA Precision, White Oak Precision. Look at the Noveske barrels for AR-10 which he makes from machine gun barrel stock. GA Precision can put Krieger, Rock, Schneider, Obermeyer etc whatever you want or can furnish a blank. The Grendel and Beowulf, Socom and other custom chambered uppers are great for versatility.
What can be better than a semi-auto that shoots as accurately as the best bolt-gun? Especially when you factor in being able to change uppers in 10seconds.
The AR and the 1911 are simply the best going and fine triggers and accessories are the best reasons for choosing them. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 476021
Hi there, thanks for the reply.
I have a very early Colt AR15 SP 1 in about 90% condition. Bone stock, have a cotton camo sleeve that looks wicked. In this pict.
I am looking for a CGB OR medium range scope of course mounted on the carry handle. My budget is around 400 bucks. I am leaning toward CGB as I already have a .375 H&H and a .308 bolt gun.
I am going to D&R right now, thanks!!!!
Now that you have me looking at triggers I am going to go broke!!!!:>)
Handguns are a skill; shotguns an art; rifles a science.
_____________________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner.
Disarmament is the precursor to Genocide.
Better to take action now rather than chances later. Your choice. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 476371
7/30/2008 11:47 PM | | Cunning_linguist
User ID: 476340
7/30/2008 11:57 PM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
BTW I am shopping for a .177 cal pellet gun under 300 bucks so I can practice daily in my backyard. It's gotta be very accurate. I am looking at some Gamo's and Beeman's. Anyone got a specific model in mind? Quoting: Omega
If you can find a Power Line 881 or one of it's siblings, you'll be pleased and it won't break the bank.
De Bunker Hiding in a Bunker. |
| Evil Twin 
Senior Forum Moderator
User ID: 476367
7/31/2008 12:01 AM
 | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Lester, you have me seriously thinking about consolidating several rifle into one.
I had my heart set on an M1A/M14 for a long time, but you make a strong case for the AR-10.
I just may trade off a couple nice russian SKS's and an AK and get a real MBR.
I already have a decent Savage bolt in .308, and used to be satisfied with that, lol.
The beauty of it is, the Russian SKS's have nearly quadrupled in value since I bought them.
Drawback is, I will lose 3 spare rifles that I could hand out to friends.
To visualize the coming apocalypse, imagine, if you will, Oprah & Rosie O'Donnell wrestling for the last rib at an all-you can-eat Bar-B-Q... |
| Omega
User ID: 363643
7/31/2008 12:10 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
Lester, you have me seriously thinking about consolidating several rifle into one.
I had my heart set on an M1A/M14 for a long time, but you make a strong case for the AR-10.
I just may trade off a couple nice russian SKS's and an AK and get a real MBR.
I already have a decent Savage bolt in .308, and used to be satisfied with that, lol.
The beauty of it is, the Russian SKS's have nearly quadrupled in value since I bought them.
Drawback is, I will lose 3 spare rifles that I could hand out to friends. Quoting: Evil Twin
I hear ya man, I wish I could afford an AR10 but don't have the scratch right now. Now unless you wanna buy that Les Paul I have,lol...
I am going to stick with that AR15 and beef it up ,one of the main reasons is I think we may just almost be outta time brother....
Lemme know what ya get....
Handguns are a skill; shotguns an art; rifles a science.
_____________________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner.
Disarmament is the precursor to Genocide.
Better to take action now rather than chances later. Your choice. |
| Omega
User ID: 363643
7/31/2008 12:15 AM | | Re: Survival Guns discussed | Quote |
BTW I am shopping for a .177 cal pellet gun under 300 bucks so I can practice daily in my backyard. It's gotta be very accurate. I am looking at some Gamo's and Beeman's. Anyone got a specific model in mind?
If you can find a Power Line 881 or one of it's siblings, you'll be pleased and it won't break the bank. Quoting: Cunning_linguist
Thanks man, I already settled on and bought a RWS Diana Model 34. I thought it would be here tomorrow, but now Fed Ex says Friday and I have to work Friday and someone has to sign for it, rat bastards...
So I won't be around to sign for it till next Tuesday....
I am hurting badly over here, someone throw me a bone, lol.....
Handguns are a skill; shotguns an art; rifles a science.
_____________________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner.
Disarmament is the precursor to Genocide.
Better to take action now rather than chances later. Your choice. |
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