latimes.com
[link to www.latimes.com]
From the Los Angeles Times
NEWS ANALYSIS
Eastern Europe gets jittery over Russia
Poland, Ukraine, Moldova and the Czech Republic are among those worried that they could be next after the invasion of Georgia.
By Tracy Wilkinson
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
6:56 PM PDT, August 18, 2008
WARSAW — Signing a missile-defense deal with its good friend the United States has earned Poland nothing less than the threat of nuclear attack from Russia -- a threat that might not sound so empty these days, given Moscow's bloody battle with Georgia.
That conflict has plunged Europe into serious crisis, sending waves of jitters through Poland and other eastern nations, once-occupied parts of a Soviet Empire that some fear Russia may want to reconstruct. Russia's actions have also succeeded in driving deeper the wedge between Europe's East and West.
"Slowly, the Iron Curtain is being rebuilt," said Jacek Palasinski, veteran foreign affairs commentator for the Polish television network TVN24. "Europe will be divided again -- the lines are different, pushed farther east, but the division is the same. And dangerous."
Ukraine and Moldova are worried that they could be Russia's next targets. The Czech Republic, on the eve of the 40th anniversary of a Soviet invasion that crushed the Prague Spring reform movement, is fretting about history repeating itself. Many Eastern European nations, Poland chief among them, are eager to find safe haven, and have turned to Washington for guidance and reassurance and partnerships.
But the fact that the distracted and overly stretched Bush administration took little concrete action to protect Georgia from Russia's wrath must also give pause to nations that would throw their lot completely with the U.S. Is the strategic alliance that many Eastern European countries have been building with the U.S. since the fall of communism nearly two decades ago still worth the risks?
"What other options have you got?" said Zbigniew Lewicki, a political scientist at the University of Warsaw. "You cannot conduct foreign policy based on fear of Russia. We've been through this before. Ukraine knows it, the Baltic Republics know it.
"I don't think Russia is an immediate threat to us in the military sense. But they are a nasty neighbor," he added. "An alliance with the United States is a long-term investment."
Poland, a member of both NATO and the European Union, views the U.S. as its most reliable ally, far more trustworthy than Western European nations including France or Germany, which Polish President Lech Kaczynski accused over the weekend of being too timid on Russia.
With fighting escalating in Georgia last week, Poland and the U.S. signed a long-stalled agreement in which Poland accepted a U.S. missile interceptor base to be located on its territory. Washington maintains that the base is part of a system aimed at blocking "rogue" attacks by the likes of Iran, but Russia angrily insists the weapons are directed at it and has vowed to punish Poland.
The Cold-war era rhetoric hit a high late last week when a leading Russian general went so far as to suggest that Russia could retaliate with nuclear weapons.
"Poland, by deploying [the interceptors], is exposing itself to a strike -- 100%," said Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy chief of the general staff. Russian military doctrine permits the use of nuclear weapons "against the allies of countries having nuclear weapons if they in some way help them," he said.
Negotiations over the U.S.-Poland deal had meandered for 18 months, and it is no coincidence that they came to a quick conclusion against the backdrop of bloodshed in Georgia (despite official denials to the contrary). The agreement allows Washington to assert its ability to have influence and presence in the region, and strengthens security measures for Warsaw. The bloodshed in Georgia quieted most domestic Polish opposition to the missile program, which had been persistent; a new poll Monday showed support had grown significantly.
Also key to reaching an accord was Poland's decision to change its key negotiator in early August, appointing a diplomat considered a loyalist to Prime Minister Donald Tusk. He replaced a negotiator who had been named by Tusk's predecessor, the twin brother of President Kaczynski, who was prime minister until his right-wing political party was dumped in elections 10 months ago.
The Poles then carried a new proposal to the Americans that included giving Poland an allotment of Patriot missiles as well as stating a "mutual commitment" to coming to each other's aid in case of attack and on a timetable more expedient than provided by the sometimes unwieldy North Atlantic Treaty Organization.
Ever mistrustful of Russian ambitions, Poles are of mixed minds about whether to panic at the invasion of Georgia and over how enthusiastic their allegiance to the U.S. should be. "We Poles have the right to feel threatened," Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski told the Dziennik newspaper Monday.
Over the weekend, life here went on as usual. Along Warsaw's Krakowskie Przedmiescie street, a line of steeples and green domes, families went to church, pushed babies in strollers and paused for coffee. Jerzy Zabielski, an 82-year-old widower, was viewing an outdoor photo exhibit of scenes from the 1944 Warsaw Uprising against Nazi occupation, a war he fought in.
"I am not afraid of an invasion and I hate the Russians," said Zabielski, a retired engineer, dressed in a gray suit and wearing an armband in Polish national colors of red and white, to symbolize his war-vet status. "That empire is very aggressive, but we count on the word of the United States. We will be safe because the U.S. supports us."
Renata Kalisz, an office administrator, spoke in a similar vein.
"Only the U.S. can protect us, not Europe, and so there is no danger for Poland," Kalisz, 48, said as she emerged from St. John's Cathedral, a restored medieval church where a musical trio from the Polish mountains was performing loud ballads in dialect.
Palasinski, the television commentator, said Russia's threats against Poland remained a fact of life regardless of the intensity of Warsaw's friendship with the U.S. Cementing the alliance through the missile deal was the smartest thing Poland could do, he added, amid what is clearly a shifting balance of power and a turning point in European dynamics.
But others said the price for Poland's embrace of U.S. strategic interests like the missile program may be too high.
"One battery of Patriots will provide no security for Warsaw -- there are lots of threats, and not enough privileges," said Marek Siwiec, former head of the presidential National Security Office and a Socialist Party member of the European Parliament.
"The security of the U.S. is very important; if the U.S. feels safe, I feel safe. I understand that philosophy," Siwiec said. "But there are many collateral problems. When it's over, you will have your missiles, and we will have Russia in the neighborhood."
wilkinson@latimes.com "In a time of deceit telling the truth is revolutionary act." - George Orwell
Anonymous Coward User ID: 158794 8/18/2008 11:15 PM
I know in Latvia we're not afraid of the Russians and with NATO's back if worst comes to worst.
We will Send Terror into Russian Troops.
Some History of Latvia's long long history of fighting Russia..
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“LATVIAN LEGION” pages 236-237, over 148,000 men were conscripted by Germany and 61,000 served Stalin. Out of a nation of 1,500,000 it is estimated that around 100,000 people died during this tragic time .
In Kurzeme, Soviet documents show that Stalin threw division after division into the Kurland inferno, disregarding the appallingly high losses. According to German estimates, the Soviet army lost 320,000 soldiers – including those fallen, wounded, and taken prisoner – and 2388 tanks, 659 planes, 900 cannons, and 1440 machine-guns.
At the end of the war somewhere about 14,000 Latvian soldiers were left behind for Stalins Gulags in Siberia . The war didn't end for some for between 1945 and 1956, 2,422 were shot by the occupying Russians and 7,342 were arrested.
Among the last defenders of Hitler's Reich Chancellery and Himmler's State Security Headquarters in Berlin were eighty Latvian soldiers, from the Fifteenth Battalion of the Fifteenth Latvian Legion(see page). The last commander of this battalion, Lieutenant Neilands, would act as interpreter for the talks on German surrender between the commander of Berlin , General Krebs, and the Soviets. Yet another Latvian, the Soviet Colonel General Nikolajs Bersarin, who's troops fought the Latvians in Berlin, would become the first commander of Russian-occupied Berlin until his death in 1946.
Several times during the war the Latvians had fought each other in battles(See Information) such as in the battle for Courland at the city of Džûksta during December 1944 where in six battles 72,000 Russian soldiers perished trying to destroy Army Group North. The majority are buried in a cemetery on the outskirts of the city of Priekuli in Kurzeme.
With the fall of the Russian empire in 1991, the last Russian troops withdrew from Latvia at the end of August 1994. In October of 1994 the Friedrich Ebert Foundation of Germany commissioned a poll of Russian military officers. Among the questions was one that asked the respondents to rank foreign states according to the threat they posed to Russia . That a German foundation should put this question to Russian soldiers a half century after the horrendously brutal war between Germany and Russia was understandable. The results of the poll were, however, most surprising. Germany was not to be found among the top five enemy states. In fifth position was the United States , in fourth Estonia , third Lithuania , and second Afghanistan . The grand prize - went to Latvia . Forty nine percent of the officers polled considered Latvia to be their chief enemy. A country with a population of fewer than 3 million was deemed the principal foe of a state with some 150 million people. Another Poll taken in 2005, the Russians still put Latvia and the Baltics as Russia's number one enemy . This comes from a nation known to have murderd over 50 million people since 1919 (with no one being prosecuted) and terrorized many more.
Today we have the Russian government trying to rewrite history with lies about Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia in World War II but the Latvian government has answered this attempt .
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Remember the Nuremberg Trials After World War II?? Remember the White helmeted Guards the Tirals??
LATVIAN LEGIONERS!!! We were found NOT GUILTY of War Crimes and Served at the Nuremberg Trials as Court Guards! :)
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Latvian legion soldiers at Nuremberg Tribunal
Section:
Propaganda of modern day Russia, name-calling Latvian Legion soldiers “Nazis” and accusing them of “crimes against humanity” (what even Soviet propaganda in the times of highest might of the USSR was not taking liberty to do), keeps telling, that International Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal would have declared Baltic soldiers, fighting on the German side during WWII against Soviet Red Army, war criminals.
Though, as it often happens with the Russian (and formerly Soviet) mass media - the truth is considerably different. Yes, indeed, Latvian Legion soldiers had their place in Nuremberg, but in a role that is quite different from what Russian mass produced disinformation is trying to depict.
Everybody has seen soldiers with white helmets and white gloves standing along the walls in Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal hall. They are Americans. But only few know, that people dressed in similar uniforms - former Latvian and Estonian legionaries - were guarding imprisoned Nazis and securing facilities of Allied army.
Let us see what photographic images of the time and contemporaries do tell us.
"In 1946 next to English and American armies there were founded so called Guard companies. (The first one was called Viesturs company.) Legionaries were recognized as units in no way connected to the crimes of SS.” “Four companies (approx. 1000 men), including Viesturs company, in 1947 took over the guard at the Nuremberg Palace of Justice (!) and the prison!” “At their sleeves and later at their helmets there were the red-white-red national colors of Latvia” “Besides it shall be taken into account, that attitude of Allied authorities to the Nazi war criminals was very serious and consistent”. [1]
”References about the Baltic soldiers were good[...]. Almost all "viesturians" were former legionaries, therefore soldier drilling was not required, only “americanised” military code had to be adjusted to. [...] Officers and soldiers of the company were on garrison duty in several cities of Germany (from spring 1947 - were also on guard in Nuremberg Palace of Justice and the prison).” [2]
"Paramilitary units of Latvians and Estonians in Germany were also working at the Nuremberg Trials (1947 - 1949), where they were guarding war criminals. [...] guard posts were located not only at the perimeter of the Palace of Justice, but also at the doors to the cells. Baltic guards were escorting inmates to the walking areas and to the interrogations. [...] Only two functions at the Nuremberg Trials were performed by American military police: escort of inmates in the court hall and to the execution (hanging).” “When Berlin crisis took place and airlift for supply of West Berlin started to operate, viesturians were transferred to the forests near the border to secure the most important field storages of the USA Army. After that Latvian guards were transferred to the surroundings of Stuttgart to guard USA Army corps headquarters".[3]
The sign of the Viesturs company.[4]
Viesturs company being visited by the ambassador of the Latvian Republic Karlis Zarins. American Zone, Stuttgart, 1948.[5]
Ambassador Karlis Zarins (right) and guards of the Viesturs company. Stuttgart, 1948.[8]
On duty. Stuttgart, 1948.[9]
American zone. Stuttgart, 1948.[10],[11]
Legionaries in Nuremberg. Parade at the Palace of Justice.[12]
Legionaries in Nuremberg. Before going to guard duty at the Palace of Justice.[12]
Criminal Wing I in the Justice Prison. Nuremberg, 1947.
“It was in one of these cells along this particular corridor that Hermann Goering, Rudolf Hess, and other top Nazis were confined during their international trial.”[13] Baltic guards - former legionaries - patrol and check the cells.
Image 1: American officers discussing guard matters (left). “Behind them, peering into individual cells, are Baltic guards utilized by the U.S. Army to supplement American personnel in such work.” [14]
Image 2: American officer checks guard roster with Baltic interpreter.[15]
Baltic guards on patrol. Nuremberg, 1947.
“Baltic guards form security detatchment in the Justic(e Prison?) at Nurnberg. Her on the second and third floors they pat(rol?) the cells in Criminal Wing I. Miles of wire mesh were in(stalled?) along all catwalks to prevent suicide leaps..”[16]
Baltic guard inspects a prisoner. Nuremberg, 1947.
“A Baltic guard checks the cell of two defendants of a war crimes case at the Nurnberg Justice prison. Ports in the cell door are kept open at all times and sentinels moving along the block stop for periodic inspection of the prisoners.”[17]
Member of a Latvian paramilitary unit. English zone.
“English military authorities established paramilitary units, where DPs [i.e. “displaced persons”] could come to serve.” ”They were former legionaries, who were used to do different jobs at the [displaced persons] camp and also as guards.”[18]
English zone, Luebeck, February 1949.
English regiment commander is inspecting Latvian paramilitary unit, Latvian section commander is following him.[19]
Details of the images seen above:
* Banner of the Viesturs company sign in Latvian national colors, bearing inscription BALTIC.
* Obviously Viesturs company sleeve chevron.
* Different sleeve chevron (because of English zone?) - similar in shape to the chevrons of the Legion. Diagonally placed colors of the Latvian flag and inscription LATVIJA(?).
* Samples of helmet painting in Latvian national colors.
Sources:
[1] "Es neesmu karojis", Ilmārs Knaģis. Latvijas Politiski represēto apvienība
[2] Juris Ciganovs, "Latvijas avīze", 16.01.2004 . Quote from LPRA article
[3] "Latviešu un igauņu paramilitārās vienības Vācijā", V.Kukaiņa atmiņas
[4] "DP albums. Latviešu dzīve bēgļu nometnēs Vācijā 1945-1950". ID 1961
[5] "DP albums. Latviešu dzīve bēgļu nometnēs Vācijā 1945-1950". ID 1962
[6] "DP albums. Latviešu dzīve bēgļu nometnēs Vācijā 1945-1950". ID 1928
[7] "DP albums. Latviešu dzīve bēgļu nometnēs Vācijā 1945-1950". ID 1929
[8] "DP albums. Latviešu dzīve bēgļu nometnēs Vācijā 1945-1950". ID 1963
[9] "DP albums. Latviešu dzīve bēgļu nometnēs Vācijā 1945-1950". ID 1966
[10] "DP albums. Latviešu dzīve bēgļu nometnēs Vācijā 1945-1950". ID 1959
[11] "DP albums. Latviešu dzīve bēgļu nometnēs Vācijā 1945-1950". ID 1958
[12] "Es neesmu karojis" - "Latviešu leģionāri Nirnbergas tiesu pils un cietuma apsardzē", Ilmārs Knaģis. Latvijas Politiski represēto apvienība
[13] Columbia Law School, Arthur W. Diamond Law Library. OMTPJ-P-25
[14] Columbia Law School, Arthur W. Diamond Law Library.OMTPJ-P-25
[15] LOUISiana Digital Library Collections Online. Criminal Wing I
[16] LOUISiana Digital Library Collections Online. Baltic guards on patrol
[17] LOUISiana Digital Library Collections Online. Baltic guard inspects a prisoner
[18] "DP albums. Latviešu dzīve bēgļu nometnēs Vācijā 1945-1950". ID 380
[19] "DP albums. Latviešu dzīve bēgļu nometnēs Vācijā 1945-1950". ID 490
-------------------------------------------
Now with that said...
Youtube Clip.. OF THE ONLY ARMY IN THE WORLD TO TERRORFIY THE RUSSIANS TO THIS DAY!! In action.
DON'T PUSH US RUSSIA, WE LATVIANS AND BALTS WILL BITE BACK. THIS TIME WE'RE NATO!!!
Nightshade 09
Proud Son of Latvian Legionnaire "In a time of deceit telling the truth is revolutionary act." - George Orwell
Trench GLP's Raging Maniac User ID: 462111 8/18/2008 11:52 PM
Ahhhhh, now i get it,this explains all your anti Russia postings...This is personal....Carry on.... I dont have a fucking attitude,you stupid motherfucker
:: Nightshade thumbs threw the Russian papers looking at soon to be vacated Summer Cottages on the outskirts of Moscow. The Price of course will free of course!! ;) "In a time of deceit telling the truth is revolutionary act." - George Orwell
Lampshade on my Head User ID: 470514 8/19/2008 12:08 AM
Trench no its not personal.. I truly believe that the Russian People and Culture is one of the richest and deepest beautiful cultures in the world. Russian people are beautiful lot of folks.
But
Its their choose of governments that really really stink to high heaven. If they only stopped this "I want to Rule the World Mental Illness Complex" and stopped enslaving Nations. Get rid theses Tsars and Tsar wanna be like Putin. They would have a lot to contribute to World.
Their choose of governments are the ones that invade, destory and rape entire nations. An if they try it in the Baltics or in Poland.. this time around. They will be sorry for the attempt, for they will step into hell on earth and we'll not stop until we send as many as we can to hell.
Nightshade 09
Ahhhhh, now i get it,this explains all your anti Russia postings...This is personal....Carry on....
Quoting: Trench
"In a time of deceit telling the truth is revolutionary act." - George Orwell
Anonymous Coward User ID: 470514 8/19/2008 12:34 AM
Trench no its not personal.. I truly believe that the Russian People and Culture is one of the richest and deepest beautiful cultures in the world. Russian people are beautiful lot of folks.
But
Its their choose of governments that really really stink to high heaven. If they only stopped this "I want to Rule the World Mental Illness Complex" and stopped enslaving Nations. Get rid theses Tsars and Tsar wanna be like Putin. They would have a lot to contribute to World.
Their choose of governments are the ones that invade, destory and rape entire nations. An if they try it in the Baltics or in Poland.. this time around. They will be sorry for the attempt, for they will step into hell on earth and we'll not stop until we send as many as we can to hell.
Nightshade 09
Ahhhhh, now i get it,this explains all your anti Russia postings...This is personal....Carry on....
Quoting: Nightshade 09
I can appreciate your history and heritage, but I think you should stop listening to the propaganda coming from the West. Russia really has been getting screwed. I think if the same thing had happened in latvia (the Muslim/nato/neocon) gang had attacked you, that Russia would have come to your rescue.
BTW, Nightshade, are the Latvian women really as good looking as they seem on the internet?
And with good reason. I am sure the Hungarians remember their last visit from the Russian troops as do others.
And all of those little countries have more than enough people still alive who remember well what Stalin's rule and all the rest of the Soviet leaders who followed him were really like.
They were all "property of the state", serfs owned by theier rulers and now finally have some freedoms and a bit of economic prosperity and want to keep it.
Putin and his Stalinistas are on a rampage to reclaim what they consider to be their countries to control. Until the Russian people decide they have had enough of him or until God decides to take him, Europe has good cause to be nervous.
And just where are all those anti-war protesters that marched screaming in the streets of the EU against our country and our President? Why haven't we heard from the Hollywood crowd and Cindy Sheehan who take every opportunity to bash this country? Do they all think Russian wars and soldiers are OK but our are not?
Haven't heard the media interviewing Sean Penn or Susan Sarandon or any of the rest of them who are more than eager to get on camera to bash this country.
Their silence speaks louder than any of their words.
And isn't nice that Putin has given the Europeans someone else to hate besides us? We should send him a big thank you bottle of Vodka.
And with good reason. I am sure the Hungarians remember their last visit from the Russian troops as do others.
And all of those little countries have more than enough people still alive who remember well what Stalin's rule and all the rest of the Soviet leaders who followed him were really like.
They were all "property of the state", serfs owned by theier rulers and now finally have some freedoms and a bit of economic prosperity and want to keep it.
Putin and his Stalinistas are on a rampage to reclaim what they consider to be their countries to control. Until the Russian people decide they have had enough of him or until God decides to take him, Europe has good cause to be nervous.
And just where are all those anti-war protesters that marched screaming in the streets of the EU against our country and our President? Why haven't we heard from the Hollywood crowd and Cindy Sheehan who take every opportunity to bash this country? Do they all think Russian wars and soldiers are OK but our are not?
Haven't heard the media interviewing Sean Penn or Susan Sarandon or any of the rest of them who are more than eager to get on camera to bash this country.
Their silence speaks louder than any of their words.
And isn't nice that Putin has given the Europeans someone else to hate besides us? We should send him a big thank you bottle of Vodka.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 486798 8/19/2008 1:05 AM
Eurotards and their fucking union will pay for their trying to control the world through their worthless beaurocracy.They contribute nothing.True leeches.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 487144 8/19/2008 1:08 AM
Latvians have very long history of being a warrior culture. Latvian women were one of few Pagan cultures that had their women folk fight along side the men (out of necessity for being a small population) . Latvian, Lithuanian, Estonian women still remain um Passionate in all things from expression their opinion to their mate to umm more intimate moments. Think of Xena the Warrior Princess ;)
They are beautiful both on the outside and inside.
Latvian women tend to be fiercely loyal to mate and family.
Conservative in domestic life and household.
They prefer traditional family, traditional family values.
But love fun, wild times, hard dancing and nights out.
In intimate surroundings they’ll leave you breathless and grinning ear to ear. ;) One thing though American men find surprising though about Latvian Women is that She won’t be afraid of expressing her opinion and she’ll expect a little verbal joust match, just to see if your ’man enough’ for her. Which they find attractive in a guy.
Lativans along Estonia and Lithuiana is one of the Oldest Cultures in Europe. We were also the last Pagans of Europe only converted to Christianity in 1638 none the less we strongly identify with our Pagan heritage.
One of the traditions in Lativa (well a near obession is Singing) We have songs dating back to 4,000 BC in some cases passed down generations. Its women in our culture that memorize these songs from childhood and pass them down the generations.
In these clips you see typical Lativan Girls and Women ;)
She's Latvian - American ;)
National Anthem of Latvia
Dievs sveti Latviju
Riga Lativa, Three day Song Festival
As a spouse, girlfriend or lover a Latvian woman will be deeply loyal, protective, and 'watch your back' in troubles that may arise in a relationship.
Nightshade 09
Trench no its not personal.. I truly believe that the Russian People and Culture is one of the richest and deepest beautiful cultures in the world. Russian people are beautiful lot of folks.
But
Its their choose of governments that really really stink to high heaven. If they only stopped this "I want to Rule the World Mental Illness Complex" and stopped enslaving Nations. Get rid theses Tsars and Tsar wanna be like Putin. They would have a lot to contribute to World.
Their choose of governments are the ones that invade, destory and rape entire nations. An if they try it in the Baltics or in Poland.. this time around. They will be sorry for the attempt, for they will step into hell on earth and we'll not stop until we send as many as we can to hell.
Nightshade 09
Ahhhhh, now i get it,this explains all your anti Russia postings...This is personal....Carry on....
I can appreciate your history and heritage, but I think you should stop listening to the propaganda coming from the West. Russia really has been getting screwed. I think if the same thing had happened in latvia (the Muslim/nato/neocon) gang had attacked you, that Russia would have come to your rescue.
BTW, Nightshade, are the Latvian women really as good looking as they seem on the internet?
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 487283
"In a time of deceit telling the truth is revolutionary act." - George Orwell
Nightshade 09, i really appreciate your extensive and spot-on input on this forum. We Balts(being an Estonian myself) truly know RuSSians inside and out.
Many people here see RuSSians as the good guys that are opposing the Western NWO. Yes, they certainly are a big obstacle and nuisance to them, but that doesn't mean Russians are the good guys in all of this. They have their own imperialistic agendas, and are just as bad as the Zionist power elite in the west.
When it comes to this Georgian thing, then sure, Georgia wasn't totally innocent in this, but to say that Russia ONLY started it's military campaign JUST to protect it's citizens in Ossetia is also ludicrous. They are playing their own power plays.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 486990 8/19/2008 2:15 AM
One of my personal favorite modern Latvian Pagan Heavy Metal Bands
Here Skyforger sings a traditonal Latvian Warrior songs dating back 12th Century.
If these guys remind of Vikings. Well we were ;)
We are People of Peace seek peace in all things. But we've in our history have often (to often had to deal with invasion and war, saddly to often by the Russians.)
When push comes to shove. We Fight and when we do we usually fight to very last man giving it 200%.
Some of our Heros from the Last Time We fought the Russians
Watch movie about Baltic - Latvian Forest Brothers.( Meža brāļi)
Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are all related we came a single tribe in 4,000 BC and we consider ourselves a single Family of Sorts. Sisters and Brothers To this day.
I know Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia and Poles. If Russia tries anything anything this time in 2008. Your going to witness the biggest battle in history. Because if Russia crosses the boarder it will be a fight for our very Existence as Peoples and Cultures.
An I don't fear the Russian Army. Their technology there forces are 20-30 years old in most cases.
I morn for their Mothers, Daughters, Sisters and Wives because their men will not be coming home. All because of their Government. Not understanding. WE DON'T WANT THEM ON OUR SOIL! AN WE WON'T BE APART OF THEIR EMPIRE.
Unlike World War II.. Many of Republics from Ukraine (the second largest army in Europe compared to Russians,) In an Arc around Russia into the Baltic The FRONT Will be coming at them from all sides. With one thing on their minds. Revenge. Revenge for 60 plus years of being occupied by the Russians. It will be a blood bath for Russia. An in a War of Revenge there is no mercy!
I pray it doesn't come to that. I pray that there are those in Russia that see what danger Russia is in and they Remove Tsar Putin from the seat of power before its to late.... Not only for Russia but Europe itself and the entire world.
Nightshade 09 "In a time of deceit telling the truth is revolutionary act." - George Orwell
Estlander, its gone beyond the Georgia Ossetia thing don't you think? Its gone beyond the NWO chess board.
You know as well as I what will come of this if Russia decides to cross the Baltic or any other border of a N.A.T.O country Europe will be drawn into this as well as USA.
Meanwhile in our respective homelands it will be a fight to the death. For Russia won't be launching a war of occupation this time but a war of extermination.
Edgars F
Nightshade 09
Nightshade 09, i really appreciate your extensive and spot-on input on this forum. We Balts(being an Estonian myself) truly know RuSSians inside and out.
Many people here see RuSSians as the good guys that are opposing the Western NWO. Yes, they certainly are a big obstacle and nuisance to them, but that doesn't mean Russians are the good guys in all of this. They have their own imperialistic agendas, and are just as bad as the Zionist power elite in the west.
When it comes to this Georgian thing, then sure, Georgia wasn't totally innocent in this, but to say that Russia ONLY started it's military campaign JUST to protect it's citizens in Ossetia is also ludicrous. They are playing their own power plays.
Quoting: Estlander 487341
"In a time of deceit telling the truth is revolutionary act." - George Orwell
How much money did Poland get? How much support? They never sign contracts or agreements unless there's some benefit to the nation as a hole. "There exists a shadowy government with it's own Air Force, it's own Navy, it's own fund raising mechanism, and the ability to pursue it's own ideas of national interest, free from all checks and balances, free from law itself." -Senator Daniel K Inouye
Anonymous Coward User ID: 484491 8/19/2008 3:03 AM
I hear something like Poland gets a billion dollars, not really that much and we can sell the military hardware which keeps our factorys going and get the money back.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 459297 8/19/2008 3:14 AM
Trench no its not personal.. I truly believe that the Russian People and Culture is one of the richest and deepest beautiful cultures in the world. Russian people are beautiful lot of folks.
But
Its their choose of governments that really really stink to high heaven. If they only stopped this "I want to Rule the World Mental Illness Complex" and stopped enslaving Nations. Get rid theses Tsars and Tsar wanna be like Putin. They would have a lot to contribute to World.
Their choose of governments are the ones that invade, destory and rape entire nations. An if they try it in the Baltics or in Poland.. this time around. They will be sorry for the attempt, for they will step into hell on earth and we'll not stop until we send as many as we can to hell.
Nightshade 09
Ahhhhh, now i get it,this explains all your anti Russia postings...This is personal....Carry on....
Quoting: Nightshade 09
Every head of state wants to improve the economic situation of their subjects *hack cough*, I mean constituents. It makes them look good and as the quality of life for their peons *hack cough*, citizens improves so does the amount they can pay themselves for their good work.(Note; sometimes this might come at the expense of other more worthwhile things like roads, education and health, but the premise is similar where ever you go.
Whether it's Putin, Bush or even Queen lizzy the second. Most people simply agree with the one that's prepared to give them the most stuff! I'm going to be a nuclear chemist!
What runs around yelling "YOU'RE FUCKING DOOMED", the terrorist that arms the other terrorists with Astrolyte!
I'm going to continue playing with chemicals until you decide it's not a great idea for me to freeze my arse off.
I have a pathological hatred for the denizens of this trailer park.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 462242 8/19/2008 3:32 AM
"Lativans along Estonia and Lithuiana is one of the Oldest Cultures in Europe. We were also the last Pagans of Europe only converted to Christianity in 1638 none the less we strongly identify with our Pagan heritage.
One of the traditions in Lativa (well a near obession is Singing) We have songs dating back to 4,000 BC in some cases passed down generations. Its women in our culture that memorize these songs from childhood and pass them down the generations."
Stop that dysentery of lies. How can you be one of the oldest cultures in Europe considering you came to Europe in 13th century - together with Lithuanians you were dragged to your nowadays area by Tartars and settled there by them, too. Only Gypsies came later to Europe, than Latvians.
The term 'Baltic' as a common name for Latvian, Lithuanian, and Old Prussian was first used by the German linguist Ferdinand Nesselman in 1845. This name was derived from the Baltic Sea. Lithuanian belongs to the Indo-European family, and is descended from the East Baltic branch. Only Lithuanian and Latvian have survived from this large family. The Baltic, the Slavic, and the Germanic languages have many common traits; there are even more similarities among the Baltic and Slavic languages. These similarities have given rise to various theories: some researchers claim there was a common Balto-Slavic stage after the break-up of the Proto-Indo-European, others consider them to have resulted from convergence.
Archaeological data show that a large part of northeastern Europe, approximately from Moscow to Berlin including the northen part of the Dniepr Basin, was Baltic-speaking territory during the 1st millennia B.C. and A.D. Slavs entered this area later. This territory was covered by near-impenetrable forests and was far from the major migration and more important trade routes. These factors facilitated the preservation of an extremely archaic language family."
Actually Teutonic Christian Maps from 1100ad. Show that the Latgale Baltic Tribe (today State within Latvia) tribal lands extended as far East as present day Moscow.
We'd like back rent! ;)
Now shall I show you the Connection between Baltic and Ancient Sumerian?
Linguistic Studies put the Arrival of the Baltic Tribes in Europe Circa 4,000 BC although some archaeological evidence put the arrival of the Baltic Indo-European arrival as far back 9,000 BC although this date has yet to be verified by more evidence.
This Original Baltic Indo-European Tribe then began to break up circa 4,000 BC. Lithuanian Tribes, Latvians Tribes, Estonian Tribes also The Sudovians who settled in was was known as Prussia / today Poland/German boarder. The Sudovians became extentic incorporated into Polish/Slav and Germanic Tribes of the area.
Today Lithuanian is old of three Baltic States. Latvians and Estonians branched ed beginning 2000 BC.
Much of Baltic Linguistic and Archeology Data proving the Baltic Peoples were the oldest in europe was either "re-written" or out right destroyed during the Soviet Occuption an attempt to "Re-Write History" by the Russians to lay archaeological claim to the Baltic States. When NONE existed.
"In a time of deceit telling the truth is revolutionary act." - George Orwell
Anonymous Coward User ID: 277984 8/19/2008 4:46 AM
Their choose of governments are the ones that invade, destory and rape entire nations. An if they try it in the Baltics or in Poland.. this time around. They will be sorry for the attempt, for they will step into hell on earth and we'll not stop until we send as many as we can to hell.
Nightshade 09
Quoting: Nightshade 09
I agree. However, it's also very dangerous to trust the Americans. I remember being told by my grandparents how the Americans urged them as Hungarians to rise up against the Russians back in 1956.
America promised that if they did, they would come and help them.
Guess what? Americans broke their promise and Hungarians had to endure decades of Russian rule.
So be careful of trusting America.
Anonymous Coward User ID: 486386 8/19/2008 5:37 AM
If its okay for the Americans to bring democracy to the Iraqis I don't see why it isn't okay for the Russians to bring democracy to the South Ossetians/Abkhazians.
In 1991 Russia invaded Georgia and carved out South Ossentia and Abkhazia from the Country of Georgia. Displaced 400,000 Georigans already living their for centuries and killed 1,000s. They then placed their so called 'peacekeepings' in and trained the South Ossentian and Abknazian militia men to go into Georgia and carry out indiscriminate attacks in Georgian villages, sabotage the Georigan infastructure and attempt to destabilize the Pro West Pro Democratic Government of Georgia
They use South Ossentia and Abhnazia as their base of operations in the destabilizing and eventual over throw of the Georgian government so that they can install a Pro-Russia Pro Moscow puppet dicatatorship and take over all of Georgia to incorprate it into "The Russian Empire."
That's way.
But that's all a moot point. For as of 20 minutes ago AP is reporting that Russia is digging in for real and occupying more of Georiga also sending in re reinforcements.
The occupation of Georgia is now taking place. Pentagon Officals are telling AP that a Military Response by the West is 100% certianity.
If its okay for the Americans to bring democracy to the Iraqis I don't see why it isn't okay for the Russians to bring democracy to the South Ossetians/Abkhazians.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 486386
"In a time of deceit telling the truth is revolutionary act." - George Orwell
Anonymous Coward User ID: 459297 8/19/2008 6:08 AM
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