Godlike Productions - Discussion Forum
Users Online Now: 1,652 (Who's On?)Visitors Today: 513,405
Pageviews Today: 887,660Threads Today: 342Posts Today: 6,202
10:54 AM


Rate this Thread

Absolute BS Crap Reasonable Nice Amazing
 

WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 322321
Mexico
08/23/2008 07:48 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
[link to www.butlerresearch.com]

TED BUTLER COMMENTARY

August 22, 2008


The Smoking Gun

(This essay was written by silver analyst Theodore Butler, an independent consultant. Investment Rarities does not necessarily endorse these views, which may or may not prove to be correct.)

For years, the data contained in the weekly Commitment of Traders Report (COT), issued by the CFTC, have indicated that several large COMEX traders have manipulated the price of silver and gold. For an equal number of years, the CFTC has reluctantly responded to public pressure over this issue with blanket denials of any wrongdoing. Many analysts have agreed with the CFTC’s position, conjuring up various ways to explain why a massive short position held by a handful of traders is not manipulative.

The recent widespread shortage of silver for retail purchase coupled with a price collapse appears to have shaken these analysts’ confidence that the COMEX silver market is operating ‘fair and square.’ Well it should, since there is no rational explanation for a significant price decline going hand in hand with product shortages other than collusive manipulation.

For any remaining doubters that COMEX silver and gold pricing is manipulated, the following CFTC data should be considered. This data is taken from a monthly report issued by the CFTC, called the Bank Participation Report. Here’s the link for the report -

[link to www.cnot] The relevant data is found in the July and August futures sections. I will condense it.



These facts speak for themselves. Here are the facts. As of July 1, 2008, two U.S. banks were short 6,199 contracts of COMEX silver (30,995,000 ounces). As of August 5, 2008, two U.S. banks were short 33,805 contracts of COMEX silver (169,025,000 ounces), an increase of more than five-fold. This is the largest such position by U.S. banks I can find in the data, ever. Between July 14 and August 15th, the price of COMEX silver declined from a peak high of $19.55 (basis September) to a low of $12.22 for a decline of 38%.

For gold, 3 U.S. banks held a short position of 7,787 contracts (778,700 ounces) in July, and 3 U.S. banks held a short position of 86,398 contracts (8,639,800 ounces) in August, an eleven-fold increase and coinciding with a gold price decline of more than $150 per ounce. As was the case with silver, this is the largest short position ever by US banks in the data listed on the CFTC’s site. This was put on as one massive position just before the market collapsed in price.

This data suggests other questions should be answered by banking regulators, the CFTC, or by those analysts who still doubt this market is rigged. Is there a connection between 2 U.S. banks selling an additional 27,606 silver futures contracts (138 million ounces) in a month, followed shortly thereafter by a severe decline in the price of silver? That’s equal to 20% of annual world mine production or the entire COMEX warehouse stockpile, the second largest inventory in the world. How could the concentrated sale of such quantities in such a short time not influence the price?

Is there a connection between 3 U.S. banks selling an additional 78,611 gold futures contracts (7,861,100 ounces) in a month, followed shortly by a severe price decline in gold? That’s equal to 10% of annual world production and amounts to more than $7 billion worth of gold futures being sold by 3 U.S. banks in a month. How can this extraordinary concentrated trading size not be manipulative?

Because prices fell so sharply after the short sales were taken (with the appropriate dirty tricks as I have previously explained) holders of known physical silver in the world suffered a decline in value of more than $2.5 billion and long COMEX silver futures holders suffered a similar $2.5 billion decline in the value of their contracts. In gold, because the dollar value held is much greater than silver, investor losses were much greater, on the order of hundreds of billions of dollars on their physical holdings. Declines in the value of mining shares adds many billions more. Was this loss of value caused by the concentrated short selling of 2 or 3 U.S. banks?

What real legitimate business do 2 or 3 U.S. banks suddenly have for selling short such quantities of speculative instruments over a brief time period? Do we want banks to be engaging in this type of activity? If the manipulation was not successful, would U.S. taxpayers be called on to bail out yet another bank speculation gone bad?

Do the traders who lost money in the recent price collapse of silver have a reason to believe that their money is now in the pockets of these two or three U.S. banks? If so, do they have recourse?

The data in the Bank Participation report is so clear and compelling that it is hard to conclude anything but manipulation. It is beyond credulity to conclude other than two or three banks caused one of the most severe price collapses in precious metals history. The CFTC has a lot to answer for as the regulatory agency responsible for preventing this type of blatant manipulation.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 488235
United States
08/23/2008 08:09 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
boo-hoo-fucking-hoo
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 489994
France
08/23/2008 08:43 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
Hey thanks for the info.

I don't understand why they would want to short sale to have this happen - granted I'm not the sharpest pencil.

The cnot link doesn't work.

thanks again
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 322321
Mexico
08/24/2008 11:06 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
Hey thanks for the info.

I don't understand why they would want to short sale to have this happen - granted I'm not the sharpest pencil.

The knot link doesn't work.

thanks again
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 489994



Easy Mr Watson :
Commercial users want silver price down in order to go on with their business !!
Lower price made jewelry and electronic product cheaper and more affordable and easier to sell .
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 490238
United States
08/24/2008 11:08 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
SHUT UP YOU BORING TWAT
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 473134
Malaysia
08/24/2008 11:11 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
and it will go down even more this week!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 275112
United States
08/24/2008 11:28 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
and it will go down even more this week!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 473134

yeh paper Silver
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 471090
United States
08/24/2008 11:30 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
Thanks OP. This information is "gold". Many here on glp have trouble grasping the importance of collusion, and the effect it has on their wallet. bump
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 275112
United States
08/24/2008 11:30 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
and it will go down even more this week!

yeh paper Silver
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 275112


The new silver - made with paper
[link to www.atimes.com]

damned
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 276543
United States
08/24/2008 11:34 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
I think we go up this week.. To much bailing out and Lehman in for some doom this week. Olympics are over so now the boys can go back to blowing shit up around the worls. Fall coming -fuel oil deliveries will start and people will be crushed when they see their bills. Things will only be OK if oil stays wher it is and going lower could be one bomb/storm from NOT.
Me114

User ID: 323570
United States
08/24/2008 11:36 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
some are not understanding how the prices in market work.

a simple scenario is when a lot of people are wanting to buy one stock, the price will start to go up..

when a lot of people are wanting to sell off a stock, that stock price will start to go down.

so... if the banks colluded to sell off silver (thats what SHORTING IT DOES) then the price of silver goes down (thats what they want it to do)

to make their profit, after the price is down, they then go back and BUY the same silver they pretended to sell (by shorting) and take the difference in price as profit.

example. Stock XYZ is 50 dollars. People start selling their XYZ stock (or shorting it) and the price falls to 40.

someone who shorted XYZ at 49 can now come into the market and BUY it at 40 to cover their short sell - making the 9 dollars difference in profit.

so the article is explaining that the banks colluded to force the price of silver down to make profit out of that manipulation of the price through short selling.


the markets are manipulated by people who make profit doing so, up and then again down, and up and down... they cause the up and down.. make money both times

its a scam
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 490283
United States
08/24/2008 11:39 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
This was/is a simple way for banks(with depositors funds-as back up)to recoup loses-subprime etc--at the expense of
people who hold physical assets.

Now the question is which banks??? Or were they hedge funds?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 276543
United States
08/24/2008 11:46 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
The problem here is the banks working together to drive a price down. Many people were stunned by the rapid decline in the price of silver in just 3 days. The market has been OVERLY fucked with these past months. Many investors ( the real ones) are just scared from all the manipulation and still plenty of financial doom out there. Its Vegas out of control right now kinda like the wild west. The momentum swings are huge and quick so if your not ontime you can be wiped out.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 489817
United States
08/24/2008 11:52 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
just a way for the FED to help these guys out a little i'm guessing... they help orchestrate
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 276543
United States
08/24/2008 12:03 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
The FED is in deep shit they have nothing to throw out anymore. Anything they do must be created on the fly. Lehman is a perfect example. They could help out with the purchase and handover if a US entity wants to buy them. The problem is LEH wants to much for to little and unknown asset/risk. The FED cannot backstop a buy from a foriegn nation and really doesn't want a wealth fund from another country own more of our shit. They are so fucked and eventually us with them. Wait till you here the bailout of Fannie/Freddie and what the eventual cost will be. Mindblowing to say the least.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 322321
Mexico
08/24/2008 12:13 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
some are not understanding how the prices in market work.

a simple scenario is when a lot of people are wanting to buy one stock, the price will start to go up..

when a lot of people are wanting to sell off a stock, that stock price will start to go down.

so... if the banks colluded to sell off silver (thats what SHORTING IT DOES) then the price of silver goes down (that's what they want it to do)

to make their profit, after the price is down, they then go back and BUY the same silver they pretended to sell (by shorting) and take the difference in price as profit.

example. Stock XYZ is 50 dollars. People start selling their XYZ stock (or shorting it) and the price falls to 40.

someone who shorted XYZ at 49 can now come into the market and BUY it at 40 to cover their short sell - making the 9 dollars difference in profit.

so the article is explaining that the banks colluded to force the price of silver down to make profit out of that manipulation of the price through short selling.


the markets are manipulated by people who make profit doing so, up and then again down, and up and down... they cause the up and down.. make money both times

its a scam
 Quoting: Me114


Excellent point ... but insufficient !!
But there are many main reasons to short precious metals like gold / silver :

1.-Gold / silver are the only true currencies world wide.
2.-Any change in gold/silver prices impact directly dollars , euro prices .
3.- Govt. needs/wants NO "help" from gold /silver to value their currencies .
4.-Silver has many strategic uses which might be impacted deeply by silver price .
5.-Many countries (China ??) are buying gold / silver instead of dollar to protect their national money reserve: they are doing "out the loop of the spot market" why ?? they want cheap silver /gold and Masters markets know that and in order to "protect the price " they sell paper silver and buy hard/cold physical silver.

damned
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 275112
United States
08/24/2008 12:20 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
some are not understanding how the prices in market work.

a simple scenario is when a lot of people are wanting to buy one stock, the price will start to go up..

when a lot of people are wanting to sell off a stock, that stock price will start to go down.

so... if the banks colluded to sell off silver (thats what SHORTING IT DOES) then the price of silver goes down (that's what they want it to do)

to make their profit, after the price is down, they then go back and BUY the same silver they pretended to sell (by shorting) and take the difference in price as profit.

example. Stock XYZ is 50 dollars. People start selling their XYZ stock (or shorting it) and the price falls to 40.

someone who shorted XYZ at 49 can now come into the market and BUY it at 40 to cover their short sell - making the 9 dollars difference in profit.

so the article is explaining that the banks colluded to force the price of silver down to make profit out of that manipulation of the price through short selling.


the markets are manipulated by people who make profit doing so, up and then again down, and up and down... they cause the up and down.. make money both times

its a scam


Excellent point ... but insufficient !!
But there are many main reasons to short precious metals like gold / silver :

1.-Gold / silver are the only true currencies world wide.
2.-Any change in gold/silver prices impact directly dollars , euro prices .
3.- Govt. needs/wants NO "help" from gold /silver to value their currencies .
4.-Silver has many strategic uses which might be impacted deeply by silver price .
5.-Many countries (China ??) are buying gold / silver instead of dollar to protect their national money reserve: they are doing "out the loop of the spot market" why ?? they want cheap silver /gold and Masters markets know that and in order to "protect the price " they sell paper silver and buy hard/cold physical silver.

damned
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 322321

they sell paper silver and buy hard/cold physical silver.

Before the prices to the moon.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 486165
United States
08/24/2008 12:28 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
I like it. Who needs to pay so much for gold and silver anyway?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 322321
Mexico
08/24/2008 12:35 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
Excellent point ... but insufficient !!
But there are many main reasons to short precious metals like gold / silver :

1.-Gold / silver are the only true currencies world wide.
2.-Any change in gold/silver prices impact directly dollars , euro prices .
3.- Govt. needs/wants NO "help" from gold /silver to value their currencies .
4.-Silver has many strategic uses which might be impacted deeply by silver price .
5.-Many countries (China ??) are buying gold / silver instead of dollar to protect their national money reserve: they are doing "out the loop of the spot market" why ?? they want cheap silver /gold and Masters markets know that and in order to "protect the price " they sell paper silver and buy hard/cold physical silver.

damned

they sell paper silver and buy hard/cold physical silver.

Before the prices to the moon.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 275112



Exactly !!
Eventually the game has to stop and wont go on forever : at one point , the short positions have to be paid or physically delivered .
When ??? very difficult to answer it , depend on : how much money Marker masters have ?? how much money are they willing to paid to control the price ?? it could be years , they have been playing the game very well for so long !!

damned
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 322321
Mexico
08/24/2008 12:46 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
Quote for article:


"These facts speak for themselves. Here are the facts. As of July 1, 2008, two U.S. banks were short 6,199 contracts of COMEX silver (30,995,000 ounces). As of August 5, 2008, two U.S. banks were short 33,805 contracts of COMEX silver (169,025,000 ounces), an increase of more than five-fold. This is the largest such position by U.S. banks I can find in the data, ever. Between July 14 and August 15th, the price of COMEX silver declined from a peak high of $19.55 (basis September) to a low of $12.22 for a decline of 38%."



The increase in silver short position was 140,000,000 ounces in one month .
that means :
140,000,000 x 15 dolls = 2,100,000,000 (more than 2 billion USD dollar in less than one month )

who the f..k has interested in short silver in that amount ?? Market masters !!
:
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 275112
United States
08/24/2008 01:00 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
Excellent point ... but insufficient !!
But there are many main reasons to short precious metals like gold / silver :

1.-Gold / silver are the only true currencies world wide.
2.-Any change in gold/silver prices impact directly dollars , euro prices .
3.- Govt. needs/wants NO "help" from gold /silver to value their currencies .
4.-Silver has many strategic uses which might be impacted deeply by silver price .
5.-Many countries (China ??) are buying gold / silver instead of dollar to protect their national money reserve: they are doing "out the loop of the spot market" why ?? they want cheap silver /gold and Masters markets know that and in order to "protect the price " they sell paper silver and buy hard/cold physical silver.

damned

they sell paper silver and buy hard/cold physical silver.

Before the prices to the moon.



Exactly !!
Eventually the game has to stop and wont go on forever : at one point , the short positions have to be paid or physically delivered .
When ??? very difficult to answer it , depend on : how much money Marker masters have ?? how much money are they willing to paid to control the price ?? it could be years , they have been playing the game very well for so long !!

damned
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 322321

things are different now on a scale no other in history, banking problems and the dollar are massive.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 322321
Mexico
08/24/2008 11:04 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: WTF !! WTF !! 3 BANKS'S SHORT SALE PROVOKE THE LAST WEEK SILVER/GOLD MELTDOWN !!
damned

they sell paper silver and buy hard/cold physical silver.

Before the prices to the moon.



Exactly !!
Eventually the game has to stop and wont go on forever : at one point , the short positions have to be paid or physically delivered .
When ??? very difficult to answer it , depend on : how much money Marker masters have ?? how much money are they willing to paid to control the price ?? it could be years , they have been playing the game very well for so long !!

damned

things are different now on a scale no other in history, banking problems and the dollar are massive.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 275112


But remember Market masters like to have things under control unless .........physical demand begin to soar !!!!
You might not know this, but SILVER futures market(COMEX) can only deliver a restrict quantity of silver per month : in other words COMEX cant deliver all Silver futures positions in physical form !! Silver shorts paper has no amount restriction BUT futures delivery has !!
Why ?? Simple Mr. Watson : COMEX (o anyone else ) does NOT have enough silver no cover long/short positions in physical form .
damned





GLP