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NASA's Apollo 14 video- Houston jokes with the Astronaut how good the "Wires" are that help him spring jump/Says its a Simulation

 
Locked & Loaded
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08/25/2008 06:51 AM
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NASA's Apollo 14 video- Houston jokes with the Astronaut how good the "Wires" are that help him spring jump/Says its a Simulation
Apollo 14 Down the Ladder for EVA-1 Journal Text: 113:54:04 RealVideo Clip: (3 minutes 6 seconds).
[link to history.nasa.gov]

Heres is the direct video clip of the second Apollo Astronaut going down the ladder
[link to history.nasa.gov]

At 2:04 the Astronaut after landing on the ground, leaps back up to the last ladder step, at 2:20 the astronaut says, "A little push & you just spring right up", Then at 2:25 Houston replies, saying something that is not totally clear, it is the only unclear bit of communication in the 3 minute 6 second video, it is as if what Houston said was deliberately made unclear. What Houston is saying is in reply to the Astronaut springing easily up to the ladder & down again, "A little push & you spring right back up", Houston said "I guess those guys out there with those wires know what they're doing", then the astronaut crackles with laughter, and replies "Yea, sure glad they did too, thats great"

Also at 2:30 to 2:40 in the video when the Astronaut is crackling with laughter at Houstons witty reply, look at what the Astronaut is doing with his arms and hands. See how fast he is moving his hands and arms around, it's as if he hasn't got air pressured arms and hands inside that spacesuit.
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Locked & Loaded (OP)

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08/25/2008 07:56 AM
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Re: NASA's Apollo 14 video- Houston jokes with the Astronaut how good the "Wires" are that help him spring jump/Says its a Simulation
Apollo 14 Video Library Down the Ladder for EVA-1 Journal Text: 114:15:58 RealVideo Clip: (3 minutes 44 seconds).
[link to history.nasa.gov]

The Apollo 14 Astronaut says that what they are doing is all a "Simulation"!


Direct NASA video at Link:
[link to history.nasa.gov]

The two Astronauts set up the large communications antenna, at 3:28 after the Astronaut has just flipped back upright the just opened antenna, he says, "All kinds of freebees in todays simulation". The astronaut is referring to the hidden wire men helping from high above in the darkened studio ceiling.

Houstons reply at 3:31 confirms the hidden wire men helping out the Astronauts, "Roger, we've got the boys in the back room working overtime". Then the Astronauts laugh, then one says at 3:37, "Sure have"
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The Guy
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08/25/2008 08:12 AM

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Re: NASA's Apollo 14 video- Houston jokes with the Astronaut how good the "Wires" are that help him spring jump/Says its a Simulation
bump so I can check out what people have to say about this later!
It's good to be open-minded, just don't let your brain fall out.
Anonymous Coward
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08/25/2008 08:21 AM
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Re: NASA's Apollo 14 video- Houston jokes with the Astronaut how good the "Wires" are that help him spring jump/Says its a Simulation
One of the astronauts who was supposedly on the moon is seen lurching downwards then is suddenly lifted up by some unseen force when all his momentum was going downwards. It was obvious that they pulled him up by the wires before he was balanced and ready for it.

He so clearly had a wire attached to him because his legs and ankles started going up first and then his midriff and then his head which was going down followed.

Watch an actor during filming of a scene where they have wires attached to them and you can see that when they're playing arround whilst being suspended by these wires the occasions where they are lifted up before they're unbalanced and not ready to be lifted are identical to what I saw with the astronaut
Anonymous Coward
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08/25/2008 08:37 AM
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Re: NASA's Apollo 14 video- Houston jokes with the Astronaut how good the "Wires" are that help him spring jump/Says its a Simulation
yawn
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08/25/2008 10:37 AM
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Re: NASA's Apollo 14 video- Houston jokes with the Astronaut how good the "Wires" are that help him spring jump/Says its a Simulation
Interesting.
Locked & Loaded (OP)

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08/25/2008 11:54 PM
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Re: NASA's Apollo 14 video- Houston jokes with the Astronaut how good the "Wires" are that help him spring jump/Says its a Simulation
NASA Apollo 12 Video Library
[link to history.nasa.gov]

Apollo 12 Video "That may have been a small one for Neil..." Journal Text: 115:32:52 RealVideo Clip: (3 minutes 36 seconds).

Direct video link at:
[link to history.nasa.gov]

At :14 the Astronaut Al, says, "I don't think I was this drunk, every night, every night". Then Astronaut Pete says to Al, "Hey Al, you can work out here all day, take your time". at :30 Astronaut Al replies, "Almost to cold on on, ah, in the media, and I'm thinking seriously of going to......end" After a long silence at :45 a previously unheard mysterious voice says something unclear, then at :48 Astronaut Al says "Are we assured" At 1:01 the other Astonaut Pete, is heard supposedly casually just hum singing, his words are, "Dumb, dumb dumb dumb, dumb dumb dumb dumb," then whispers, "don't".


Apollo 12 Video "That may have been a small one for Neil..." Journal Text: 115:21:24 RealVideo Clip: (3 minutes 7 seconds).

Direct video link at:
[link to history.nasa.gov]

After climbing down the LM ladder, the Astronaut says at 1:22 "Boy that Suns bright, thats just like somebody shining a spotlight in your head" At 1:58 the Astronaut says overjoyed and laughing, that he spots the Surveyer Lander close by in the distance. At 2:18 Houston says, "Well planned Pete", then you hear everyone at Houston burst out sarcastically laughing.


Apollo 12 Video "That may have been a small one for Neil..." Journal Text: 115-23-55 RealVideo Clip: (2 minutes 52 seconds).

Direct video link at:
[link to history.nasa.gov]

At 2:02 the Astronaut says, "You know theres something odd, it really is just like somebodies got a, a super bright spotlight on another good looking rock."


Apollo 12 Video "That may have been a small one for Neil..." Journal Text: 115:30:08 RealVideo Clip: (2 minutes 55 seconds).

Direct video link at:
[link to history.nasa.gov]

At 1:19 the Astronaut says while laughing, "Would you believe it, the Masons slow for one".
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nomuse (NLI)
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08/26/2008 12:53 AM
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Re: NASA's Apollo 14 video- Houston jokes with the Astronaut how good the "Wires" are that help him spring jump/Says its a Simulation
One of the astronauts who was supposedly on the moon is seen lurching downwards then is suddenly lifted up by some unseen force when all his momentum was going downwards. It was obvious that they pulled him up by the wires before he was balanced and ready for it.

He so clearly had a wire attached to him because his legs and ankles started going up first and then his midriff and then his head which was going down followed.

Watch an actor during filming of a scene where they have wires attached to them and you can see that when they're playing arround whilst being suspended by these wires the occasions where they are lifted up before they're unbalanced and not ready to be lifted are identical to what I saw with the astronaut
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 490699



Hah.

I've worked on two productions of Peter Pan, one of Wizard of Oz, and with both Flying by Foy and ZFX. I have yet to see someone start moving from their ankles because they were "unprepared." The standard hang point is small of the back. The limitation to this single pick-point method is that an actor can only turn in the horizontal plane. To allow the actor to somersault or tumble a dual line is used, on either side of a belt that sits low on the hips.

(Actually, in almost all theatrical flying the actor wears a full harness with chest strap, quite similar to an industrial fall safety harness. The costume is worn over the harness and the braided steel cables (not "wires") are poked through holes in the costume.)

Not only is the motion of being pulled up unmistakeable, but so is the position of hanging from the harness. It tends to push your head down, your shoulders up, and it is only by a rather strenuous effort that a Cathy Rigby can assume and hold that sprightly "Peter Pan" flying position.

This is not to say that some different set of pick points might not come closer to duplicating the look of the EVA video. It is, however, quite evident to those of us who actually know theatrical flying that whatever was done, it was not standard theater practice.




Interestingly enough, however, there ARE wires being used to help the astronaut stand up. Wires and springs, in fact. There is quite a bit of rather clever rigging under the surface of the pressure suit (but on top of the pressure bladder), to help overcome the difficulty of flexing an inflated limb. If you look at a close-up of the gloves without the protective linings, you will see a whole network of tiny cables and springs there.

Read up a bit on the design of the EVA suits. They are more complicated, and more interesting, then you might think.
Locked & Loaded (OP)

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08/26/2008 06:47 AM
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Re: NASA's Apollo 14 video- Houston jokes with the Astronaut how good the "Wires" are that help him spring jump/Says its a Simulation
Apollo 12 Astronaut slips into the conversation that a child is sitting in a crater, and the team slipped up!

Apollo 12 Video Library
[link to history.nasa.gov]

Apollo 12 Video "That may have been a small one for Neil..." Journal Text: 115:50:57 RealVideo Clip: (2 minutes 21 seconds).

Direct video link at:
[link to history.nasa.gov]

One Astronaut is having trouble adjusting to moving around, and the other Astronaut says at 1:27, "You really do begin to adapt, just hop a little bit, if you turn around and walk over to your right a little bit & look over into that crater, your going to see a child sitting their, and thats one team slip is on, now what have you got on your boot."

The Astronaut slipped into the conversation that there is a child sitting in a crater watching what is going on, and that the team slipped up in letting that happen, he says it at 1:34, "your going to see a child sitting their, and thats one team slip is on".


Apollo 12 Video "That may have been a small one for Neil..." Journal Text: 115:48:03 RealVideo Clip: (2 minutes 58 seconds).

Direct video link at:
[link to history.nasa.gov]

The Astronauts are told by Houston at :46 they are 40 minutes into the timeline, and are 4 minutes ahead of schedule, one Astronaut replies at :52, "Ok", then the other Astronaut says at :54 "To Fool", then the first Astronaut laughs, and the second Astronaut also says at :59, "Hell Que".


Apollo 12 Video "That may have been a small one for Neil..." Journal Text: 115:45:30 RealVideo Clip: (2 minutes 38 seconds).

Direct video link at:
[link to history.nasa.gov]

At :04 an Astronaut says, "POSSIBLE TV Deploy", later there is silence just before you hear a voice telling the Astronaut to speak, at 2:24 you hear the voice saying, "Go", then the Astronaut speaks.


Apollo 12 Video "That may have been a small one for Neil..." Journal Text: 115:39:41 RealVideo Clip: (2 minutes 41 seconds).

Direct video link at:
[link to history.nasa.gov]

At 2:22 an Astronaut says "Ok let me see, while your doing that, what was I supposed to do, oh I know, POSSIBLE TV deploy"
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Anonymous Coward
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08/26/2008 07:10 AM
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Re: NASA's Apollo 14 video- Houston jokes with the Astronaut how good the "Wires" are that help him spring jump/Says its a Simulation
It's a shame it's all in real media format :(
No way on earth am i installing that spi wear crap, i advise everyone to remove all real media apps from their PC.....if you can that is...good luck!
lol
Locked & Loaded (OP)

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08/26/2008 08:12 AM
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Re: NASA's Apollo 14 video- Houston jokes with the Astronaut how good the "Wires" are that help him spring jump/Says its a Simulation
Apollo 12 Video Library
[link to history.nasa.gov]

Apollo 12 Astronauts admit that they have been tricking everyone, and once they started doing it, there was no turning back.

Apollo 12 Video TV Journal Text: 115:59:45 RealVideo Clip: (3 minutes 4 seconds).
Direct video link at:
[link to history.nasa.gov]

At 1:29 the Astronauts are advised by Houston that the camera is not working properly, then both of the Astronauts laugh out loud. At 1:50 an Astronaut says, "Hey once we learned to trick you all, we couldn't do anything about it" Then straight away the other Astronaut replies very emphatically at 1:56 "That may do it, that may do it right there Houston".

--------------------------

Apollo 12 Video TV Troubles Journal Text: 116:05:42 RealVideo Clip: (3 minutes 10 seconds).
Direct video link at:
[link to history.nasa.gov]

At 1:35 one Astronaut says to the other, "Have you got anything to be appreciative at", the other Astronaut replies, "Ok, you go ahead, its difficult tricking them, its so tender under these lights", then the first Astronaut replies, "I know, I know"
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Anonymous Coward
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08/26/2008 09:24 AM
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Re: NASA's Apollo 14 video- Houston jokes with the Astronaut how good the "Wires" are that help him spring jump/Says its a Simulation
bsflag
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08/26/2008 09:30 AM
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Re: NASA's Apollo 14 video- Houston jokes with the Astronaut how good the "Wires" are that help him spring jump/Says its a Simulation
It's a shame it's all in real media format :(
No way on earth am i installing that spi wear crap, i advise everyone to remove all real media apps from their PC.....if you can that is...good luck!
lol
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 327403


Download the realplayer from the BBC website, they have a special flowers free version to comply with their flowers free terms of service (at least they used to a year ago).

Or better yet, Google "Real Alternative"
[link to en.wikipedia.org]
gsbltd

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08/26/2008 11:35 AM
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Re: NASA's Apollo 14 video- Houston jokes with the Astronaut how good the "Wires" are that help him spring jump/Says its a Simulation
491154:

Theatrical and motion picture flying apparatus are quite dissimilar, especially today - although during the timeframe of the Apollo missions a dual-line harness was commonly used both onstage and onfilm. Having said that, there have been [and were, even then] many custom-designed belts/harnesses that operated effectively outside the normal techniques that were specifically created for individual productions. One of the most efficient of all dual-line film harnesses used in the 1960's involved a heavy canvas "corset" the covered the actor's entire torso, that had a light wire framework built-in which [while still snug] put less strain on the peformer's body [this same corset also worked well with a single cable]. In a closed-studio environment it is far easier to establish a realistic illusion than before a live audience.

The greater problem with live productions is the simple fact that harnesses are NOT custom-tailored for individual actors - rather, a standard unit is fitted much like a tuxedo in a rental shop with buckles adjusted to accomodate different body sizes/types.... this is why there is a characteristic 'lurching' when the actor is hoisted - a perfect balance point has not been established during fitting. AND: it takes quite a bit of rehearsal time for an actor to feel comfortable in such a snug harness which rarely occurs in a stage production. It should also be noted that far thicker cables are used onstage to eliminate unexpected problems [thinner, stronger "wires" are also more expensive as well as difficult to install]. An excellent example of a properly-fitted thin-wire harness that was used in a live performance would be the one created for illusionist David Copperfield during his "FLYING" show which toured several years ago... and the effect was stunning, to say the least.

I'm not furnishing this info as a means of verifying the Apollo claims... rather, that the technology was certainly in place at that time to create a believable illusion ...especially using a very grainy [and controllable] TV transmission to help conceal any apparatus.
DarkStarCrashes
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08/26/2008 11:44 AM
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Re: NASA's Apollo 14 video- Houston jokes with the Astronaut how good the "Wires" are that help him spring jump/Says its a Simulation
That's right. Just ignore the antenna coming up out of
the astronauts backpacks.

Even today it requires two wires to make someone look like
they are suspended.

It must really suck for you Moon Hoax Believers
that several nations
are going back to the moon and within just a
decade or two.
 Quoting: DrPostman

jerkit
nomuse (NLI)
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08/26/2008 02:00 PM
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Re: NASA's Apollo 14 video- Houston jokes with the Astronaut how good the "Wires" are that help him spring jump/Says its a Simulation
491154:

Theatrical and motion picture flying apparatus are quite dissimilar...
 Quoting: gsbltd



Thanks for the mini-lecture. I'd love to know more of how it is done on the movie end. I've been involved only in a little theatrical flying, and at that have not been able to see up-close what some of the bleeding edge can do (like the Cirque!)

The two problems with applying any of this technology to the problem of faking Apollo are two-fold. But first; I, to, do not consider it impossible to fake AN Apollo. What I question is the difficulty of faking what WAS shown. The difference being, as a movie person should sympathize, that you plan the shots around your capabilities. Very slight changes to how the missions were documented would have made faking so much easier it boggles the mind why, if these were hoaxes, they proceeded in the manner they did.

In any case. The smaller of the two problems is rotation. In every clip I've seen, astronauts clearly showing reduced gravity effects twist and turn about multiple axis at the same time. I can think of no simple way to rig any harness to allow an actor to be able to tip left, right, front, back, and spin all at the same time.

Related to that, in the clips specifically pointed out as "he was on a wire and was pulled up!" if you look for the rotation centers of the motions they do not stay the same through the clip. Aka, he acts as if he was on a lifting point that started on his left hip, migrated to his middle back, and then moved over to his right shoulder. This is, well, this simply can not happen. In any single length of film the astronaut's movements would have a common axis.

Not only would some sort of sliding rig be complex, and probably obvious (as it would need struts, pulleys, other extraneous material), again, it doesn't make sense from a planner's point of view. You'd use the simplest and most time-tested system that would provide the desired illusion.



Secondarily, the complete unbroken video sequences are long, and cover in some EVAs a huge amount of ground. We are to believe that the sort of pin-point lifting described by the hoax believers can be done while the astronaut is up to a kilometer from the operator, and changing elevation rapidly over the rough terrain.

And, again, I wouldn't do it that way. No-one would. First, control the length of the shots and the amount of distance shown, and fit an x-y rig over head. Second, plan the movements of the astronauts so they don't foul each other's rigs. Thirdly, use an automated spring take-up system that keeps the harness under constant tension.

Thus, in this system, the astronauts could bound across the landscape. It would not, however, be possible to "yank them up."

For that matter, any kind of "yank up" is exactly the illusion-spoiler you want to avoid. Realism might include a few spills. But you want every motion of the astronauts to agree with the illusion. What idiot director would order the actor yanked to his feet in some sort of impatience to get on with the shot, knowing that he'd committed to film exactly the kind of scene they had planned so hard to avoid?




In summation; It wasn't shot the way we know how. There may be some way to shoot what was seen, but it would be so difficult to do it that way, what idiot would ask for it? Had the EVA been faked, it WOULD look like standard practice.



(Just remember, the hoax believers also claim the spacecraft are wooden-framed scenic elements, the backgrounds are painted, motion-picture-style multiple light setups were used, including specials on key elements, major motion picture directors may have been employed...and yet the claim is that rather than leverage the existing experience in the film industry of flying, and simulation of low gravity, they came up with some complicated untested scheme instead? Ridiculous.)
nomuse (NLI)
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Re: NASA's Apollo 14 video- Houston jokes with the Astronaut how good the "Wires" are that help him spring jump/Says its a Simulation
AND: it takes quite a bit of rehearsal time for an actor to feel comfortable in such a snug harness which rarely occurs in a stage production.
 Quoting: gsbltd


I still remember the first "Peter" I worked with, saying in the middle of fly rehearsal, "Now you know why this role is normally played by a girl!"

It should also be noted that far thicker cables are used onstage to eliminate unexpected problems [thinner, stronger "wires" are also more expensive as well as difficult to install].
 Quoting: gsbltd


Dropped quite a few winged monkeys during "Wizard of Oz," according to the books. But that's happened a few times on stage as well.
Anonymous Coward
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08/26/2008 04:10 PM
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Re: NASA's Apollo 14 video- Houston jokes with the Astronaut how good the "Wires" are that help him spring jump/Says its a Simulation
...what idiot would ask for it?

 Quoting: nomuse (NLI) 491453


the masons that run nasa aren't the brightest light bubs in the universe.
Anonymous Coward
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08/27/2008 11:44 AM
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Re: NASA's Apollo 14 video- Houston jokes with the Astronaut how good the "Wires" are that help him spring jump/Says its a Simulation
491453:

A little more detailed research on the subject of riggings would be invaluable to your analysis... and you should also drop the references to 'flying monkeys' from a film shot in 1939!

The truth is, there are quite sophisticated articulated gimbels that allow the freedom of movement and degree of control you suggest is impossible, and both vertical and horizontal planes can be simultaneously altered from these suspending structures. The articulated gimbels are nearly always mounted on ceiling tracks that correspond with matching camera mounts that allow complete syncronisation of fluid movement to create seamless flying/jumping sequences... and there have been applications where these gimbels were hung from cranes soaring nearly 100' up [remember the jumping sequences from SUPERMAN RETURNS where a teenaged Clark Kent leaps stories into the air through lush fields? Although designed exclusively for linear movement these scenes illustrate how large some of these rigs can be - and, this a was with a largely untrained young actor and not a stunt person].

Oncamera flying techniques have progressed by leaps and bounds [pun intended] since the spate of those contemporary 'flying monkeys' -the martial arts fantasy films- and digital processing has only made the entire process even more realistic.

Having said all of this: I personally don't subscribe to the concept that the Apollo landings were faked; but, I do believe it was possible to do so at that point in time and do so convincingly. In a closed studio environment nearly anything could be recreated even then and that was long before computers assisted the process with the complete imaging control possible today.

But, I DO enjoy reading the pro/con debates on this issue!

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