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| | Page 1, 2 | Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence
| Okie
User ID: 447203
9/21/2008 10:59 AM | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
Just a thought but...
Street lights around the U.S., formally bright white mercury types, have been for years been been replaced with sodium to reduce the light pollution (as well as for environmental reasons).
There's been a bandwagon effort to reduce the ambient light pollution from major cities and urban areas.
So, if I wanted to prove ethnic cleansing is running rampant in the U.S., I suppose I could compare sat images of nightime light now to say 10 or 15 years back and come up with the same conclusions for certain parts of the country?
Anyone can set out to prove almost anything, depending on what data they use and how they 'interpret' and 'present' it. Heaven knows that should be obvious enough in here.
 |
| meroj
User ID: 439530
9/21/2008 1:32 PM | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
more america bashing ..you idiots are needed in china and russia..old women must work hard labor in china for being an agitator..she and roomate now must live in an unheated apt.Go china bash for awhile..
Way to be specific in criticizing the study. It's patriotic
to criticize your country and fascist to support your
country no matter what it does. I thank God I live in a
country where criticism is encouraged, not prosecuted. I
bet you still think Iraq had something to do with 911.
You think people can be shot at enough to embrace democracy
and be thankful for the US liberating those left alive, right?
BTW, did you ever even enter high school, or was elementary
school too difficult for you? Quoting: DrPostman
Your slant on this issue is just that, a personal slant. The poster you denigrated sounds as if he/she may have personal experience regarding the comment made. It's as viable as yours. |
| 89446
User ID: 464964
9/21/2008 1:51 PM
 | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
Conducted by the University of California, the study analyzed the use of nighttime light across Baghdad and how it changed before, during and after the surge. It's findings show only some neighborhoods have higher levels of output, suggesting the others had been ethnically cleansed before the surge.
"By the launch of the surge, many of the targets of conflict had either been killed or fled the country, and they turned off the lights when they left," geography professor John Agnew of the University of California Los Angeles, who led the study, said in a statement. Quoting: DrPostman
The study is a bit questionable - How large was their sample of satellite pictures? What was their frequency? Did it consider and eliminate the numerous blackouts that could have occured during that time? |
| anonymous
User ID: 507782
9/21/2008 2:19 PM | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
more america bashing ..you idiots are needed in china and russia..old women must work hard labor in china for being an agitator..she and roomate now must live in an unheated apt.Go china bash for awhile..
Way to be specific in criticizing the study. It's patriotic
to criticize your country and fascist to support your
country no matter what it does. I thank God I live in a
country where criticism is encouraged, not prosecuted. I
bet you still think Iraq had something to do with 911.
You think people can be shot at enough to embrace democracy
and be thankful for the US liberating those left alive, right?
BTW, did you ever even enter high school, or was elementary
school too difficult for you?
Your slant on this issue is just that, a personal slant. The poster you denigrated sounds as if he/she may have personal experience regarding the comment made. It's as viable as yours. Quoting: meroj 439530
i am a corporate executive, secretaries handle my paperwork ..perfect copy is not required, on glp....GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD... SOME OF YOU MUST BE SECRETARIES.. |
| Gazmik
User ID: 487277
9/21/2008 2:48 PM | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
I thank God I live in a
country where criticism is encouraged, not prosecuted. I
bet you still think Iraq had something to do with 911. Quoting: DrPostman
The group of the blind followers that put party over country is getting smaller and smaller:
FORMER GOP LEADER: CHENEY MISLED HIM
A GOP congressional leader who was wavering on giving President Bush the authority to wage war in late 2002 said Vice President Dick Cheney misled him by saying that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein had direct ties to Al-Qaida terrorists and was making rapid progress toward a suitcase nuclear weapon, according to a new book by Washington Post investigative reporter Barton Gellman.
Cheney's accusations, described by former House Majority Leader Richard Armey of Texas, came in a highly classified, one-on-one briefing in the vice president's hideaway office in the Capitol.
Armey had spoken out against the coming war, and his opposition gave cover to Democrats who feared the political costs of appearing to be weak. Armey reversed his position after Cheney told him, he said, that the threat from Iraq was actually "more imminent than we want to portray to the public at large."
[link to www.startribune.com] |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 479477
9/21/2008 4:04 PM | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
The "surge" worked because we are paying them $500 a month each not to fight
That too. Iraq will fall apart in just a few weeks after
we leave. No wonder McCain has no problem with staying there
for 100 years.
I really want to see this topic come up in the debates when
McCain tries to bash Obama with The Surge. Quoting: DrPostman
Don't you think they've had plenty of time for the US to train and arm the Iraqui military and set up a government with people that can be trusted? Low long does it take! |
| DrPostman  
Forum Moderator
User ID: 51197
9/21/2008 4:59 PM
 | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
It's patriotic
to criticize your country and fascist to support your
country no matter what it does. I thank God I live in a
country where criticism is encouraged, not prosecuted.
Seig Heil, asshole.
Read what I wrote again, dumbass.
That is a stretch. Less light output proves ethnic cleansing. yeah ... right ....
If you are going to claim ethnic cleansing you need bodies ... dead bodies of one ethnic group killed by another ethnic group. Satellite images of lower light would not hold up in court. Quoting: Prove it 429261
You haven't seen the death toll in Iraq? All those civilians
who died in Iraq did so mostly due to ethnic conflict.
Your slant on this issue is just that, a personal slant. The poster you denigrated sounds as if he/she may have personal experience regarding the comment made. It's as viable as yours. Quoting: meroj 439530
He "sounds" like a moron, especially in light of his later
posts on this thread. You posted this after he posted those
so that makes you a moron too. Or do you agree that all
Muslims are "on a chosen long time killing mission"?
He makes my point in this reply to you:
i am a corporate executive, secretaries handle my paperwork ..perfect copy is not required, on glp....GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD... SOME OF YOU MUST BE SECRETARIES.. Quoting: anonymous 507782
Still think I denigrated him unfairly?
The study is a bit questionable - How large was their sample of satellite pictures? What was their frequency? Did it consider and eliminate the numerous blackouts that could have occured during that time? Quoting: 89446
A direct link to the study was provided. You can see the
criteria they used there.
Don't you think they've had plenty of time for the US to train and arm the Iraqui military and set up a government with people that can be trusted? Low long does it take! Quoting: Anonymous Coward 479477
100 years, as far as McCain is concerned.
"Sooner or later all the peoples of the world will have to discover a way to
live together in peace, and thereby transform this pending cosmic elegy into
a creative psalm of brotherhood. If this is to be achieved, man must evolve
for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression, and retaliation.
The foundation of such a method is love."
--Reverend Martin Luther King
Can't PM? Feel free to email me at
DrPostman(at)gmail.com
Want to know if a site is down, or if
the problem is at your end? Go to:
[link to downforeveryoneorjustme.com] |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 429391
9/21/2008 5:04 PM | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
funny that...it's been "a century of war" from bush's mouth also. |
| Cryin Wont Help Ya
User ID: 502790
9/21/2008 5:05 PM
 | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
A study of the Pentagon's satellite imagery concludes that ethnic cleansing -- not last year's surge of U.S. military forces -- is the main factor in the reduction of violence in Iraq.
The report's conclusion about the surge's ineffectiveness are supported by many Iraq experts and international organizations who credit a population shift with the decline of sectarian violence, especially in Baghdad, Reuters reported.
Conducted by the University of California, the study analyzed the use of nighttime light across Baghdad and how it changed before, during and after the surge. It's findings show only some neighborhoods have higher levels of output, suggesting the others had been ethnically cleansed before the surge.
"By the launch of the surge, many of the targets of conflict had either been killed or fled the country, and they turned off the lights when they left," geography professor John Agnew of the University of California Los Angeles, who led the study, said in a statement.
"Essentially, our interpretation is that violence has declined in Baghdad because of intercommunal violence that reached a climax as the surge was beginning," said Agnew, who studies ethnic conflict.
In other words, ethnic violence did the job before American soldiers got the chance.
Sectarian violence between Baghdad's neighborhoods has been documented by an independent commission that correlates with much of the report's findings.
But FP Passport, a foreign policy blog, offered several caveats to its conclusion. For example, the blog asks why there were also security improvements outside the capital in places such as Anbar province?
Republican presidential nominee John McCain has long criticized his opponent Sen. Barack Obama for not having backed the surge, which McCain boasts as the single factor in the reduction of violence.
CNN Security Analyst Peter Bergen disagrees.
"...oth the Democrats and the Republicans have been overemphasizing the surge. If it was just about the surge, the violence would be back up again because the surge is over."
In a speech last July, McCain said, "It is precisely the success of the surge in Iraq that shows us the way to succeed in Afghanistan," but one country has very little to do with the other, Slate.com reported.
A recent military analysis posits that a surge of troops in Afghanistan, where rising violence has drawn the attention of U.S. forces, will not succeed. The article contends U.S. military leaders do not adequately understand the country's situation.
Which is exactly what the study of ethnic cleansing suggested about commanders in Iraq.
The first sentence of the University of California's summary, written by co-author Thomas Gillespie, says this:
"Geographers and social scientists find it increasingly difficult to intervene in debates about vital matters of public interest, such as the Iraq war, because of the ideological polarization and lack of respect for empirical analysis that have afflicted US politics in recent years." Emphasis added.
Read the entirety of the report here:
[ link to www.envplan.com]
Thanks for the interesting post, Doctor P. We need to look at all the angles and permutations and not be afraid to consider all the theories about what's happening in Iraq.
Every generation needs a new revolution -- Thomas Jefferson |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 364572
9/21/2008 5:07 PM | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
A study of the Pentagon's satellite imagery concludes that ethnic cleansing -- not last year's surge of U.S. military forces -- is the main factor in the reduction of violence in Iraq.
The report's conclusion about the surge's ineffectiveness are supported by many Iraq experts and international organizations who credit a population shift with the decline of sectarian violence, especially in Baghdad, Reuters reported.
Conducted by the University of California, the study analyzed the use of nighttime light across Baghdad and how it changed before, during and after the surge. It's findings show only some neighborhoods have higher levels of output, suggesting the others had been ethnically cleansed before the surge.
"By the launch of the surge, many of the targets of conflict had either been killed or fled the country, and they turned off the lights when they left," geography professor John Agnew of the University of California Los Angeles, who led the study, said in a statement.
"Essentially, our interpretation is that violence has declined in Baghdad because of intercommunal violence that reached a climax as the surge was beginning," said Agnew, who studies ethnic conflict.
In other words, ethnic violence did the job before American soldiers got the chance.
Sectarian violence between Baghdad's neighborhoods has been documented by an independent commission that correlates with much of the report's findings.
But FP Passport, a foreign policy blog, offered several caveats to its conclusion. For example, the blog asks why there were also security improvements outside the capital in places such as Anbar province?
Republican presidential nominee John McCain has long criticized his opponent Sen. Barack Obama for not having backed the surge, which McCain boasts as the single factor in the reduction of violence.
CNN Security Analyst Peter Bergen disagrees.
"...oth the Democrats and the Republicans have been overemphasizing the surge. If it was just about the surge, the violence would be back up again because the surge is over."
In a speech last July, McCain said, "It is precisely the success of the surge in Iraq that shows us the way to succeed in Afghanistan," but one country has very little to do with the other, Slate.com reported.
A recent military analysis posits that a surge of troops in Afghanistan, where rising violence has drawn the attention of U.S. forces, will not succeed. The article contends U.S. military leaders do not adequately understand the country's situation.
Which is exactly what the study of ethnic cleansing suggested about commanders in Iraq.
The first sentence of the University of California's summary, written by co-author Thomas Gillespie, says this:
"Geographers and social scientists find it increasingly difficult to intervene in debates about vital matters of public interest, such as the Iraq war, because of the ideological polarization and lack of respect for empirical analysis that have afflicted US politics in recent years." Emphasis added.
Read the entirety of the report here:
[ link to www.envplan.com]
more america bashing ..you idiots are needed in china and russia..old women must work hard labor in china for being an agitator..she and roomate now must live in an unheated apt.Go china bash for awhile..
AC, we are now as "good" as China and Russia, We have socialist housing, socialist banks, socialists schools, Soon to be socialist markets for food (WALMART) You need to realize that our US government is not ours anymore, its gone. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 69798
9/21/2008 5:36 PM | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
"Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence" ?
Surge or ethnic cleansing ..
call it whatever you like
If the Iraqis
were Israelis we'd be
calling it a Holocaust. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 507456
9/21/2008 5:51 PM | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
Those trying to pass off the surge as a big sucess are as full of shit as the idiots with the mission accomplished banner.They exagerrated and lied about how sucessful the surge was and got caught in their lies..The best judge if it worked would be to pull the troops out and let them fend for themselves.If they can't or won't do that any time soon without the country becoming less stable than it is only fair and reasonable to call it a failure.Troop levels are still higher than when they started the surge so it is a failure. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 507456
9/21/2008 6:04 PM | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
The surge worked people were hiding when the numbers of dead shot back up again and they think that having 8 thousand more people in Iraq than when the surge began is a success.They must have some very strange and controversial criteria in which they measure sucess.To win at any cost perhaps?Bankrupt the country if necessary? |
| meroj
User ID: 439530
9/21/2008 6:25 PM | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
Dr.P writes,
..."He "sounds" like a moron, especially in light of his later
posts on this thread. You posted this after he posted those
so that makes you a moron too. Or do you agree that all
Muslims are "on a chosen long time killing mission"?
He makes my point in this reply to you:
i am a corporate executive, secretaries handle my paperwork ..perfect copy is not required, on glp....GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD... SOME OF YOU MUST BE SECRETARIES..
Quoting: anonymous 507782
Still think I denigrated him unfairly?"
A moron? Perhaps.
btw, No, I don't agree, "...that all
Muslims are "on a chosen long time killing mission"?
Emphasis on ALL.
Also, "He" is somewhat difficult to understand. Being a corporate executive does that to some, I suppose ;) |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 495549
9/21/2008 6:27 PM | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
Conducted by the University of California, the study analyzed the use of nighttime light across Baghdad and how it changed before, during and after the surge. It's findings show only some neighborhoods have higher levels of output, suggesting the others had been ethnically cleansed before the surge.
"By the launch of the surge, many of the targets of conflict had either been killed or fled the country, and they turned off the lights when they left," geography professor John Agnew of the University of California Los Angeles, who led the study, said in a statement.
The study is a bit questionable - How large was their sample of satellite pictures? What was their frequency? Did it consider and eliminate the numerous blackouts that could have occured during that time? Quoting: 89446
How big was their sample? Hmmm... How about 100%.
You dont have to study the lights in Baghdad to make the leap that depopulation has occured. Just go to the refugee camps in Syria and Jordon. Duh! |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 507456
9/21/2008 6:51 PM | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
Lets look at the evidence shall we.
When the surge was announced to be a sucess Baghdad households received power an average of 12 hours each day -- six hours fewer than when Saddam Hussein ruled. Oil production still had not returned to pre-invasion levels
Shortly after the surge the number of dead decreased,but not to a point that was that significant because other years and months saw less violence.At the time of the surge the numbers of dead just happened to be higher than normal.
The number of dead however was soon to go back up again.
In April Bush announced he would extend tours to 15 months.
Fifteen months would represent the longest official combat tour length since World War II.
In July troop levels were still higher than when the surge began .
One of the bloodiest days in Iraq was after the surge was all ready being delared a sucess.
BAGHDAD (Aug. 15) - Rescuers dug through the muddy wreckage of collapsed clay houses in northwest Iraq on Wednesday, uncovering victims of four suicide bombings that Iraqi officials said killed at least 200 people in one of the worst attacks of the war.
september 5-Bush announces combat troop levels in Iraq will remain unchanged |
| Obamanite
User ID: 429261
9/21/2008 6:58 PM | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
Just a thought but...
Street lights around the U.S., formally bright white mercury types, have been for years been been replaced with sodium to reduce the light pollution (as well as for environmental reasons).
There's been a bandwagon effort to reduce the ambient light pollution from major cities and urban areas.
So, if I wanted to prove ethnic cleansing is running rampant in the U.S., I suppose I could compare sat images of nightime light now to say 10 or 15 years back and come up with the same conclusions for certain parts of the country?
Anyone can set out to prove almost anything, depending on what data they use and how they 'interpret' and 'present' it. Heaven knows that should be obvious enough in here.
OMG!! The Bush administration has been ethnically cleansing America RIGHT UNDER OUR NOSES!!
 |
| AC156099
User ID: 156099
9/21/2008 7:16 PM | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
Street lights around the U.S., formally bright white mercury types, have been for years been been replaced with sodium to reduce the light pollution (as well as for environmental reasons).
There's been a bandwagon effort to reduce the ambient light pollution from major cities and urban areas.
So, if I wanted to prove ethnic cleansing is running rampant in the U.S., I suppose I could compare sat images of nightime light now to say 10 or 15 years back and come up with the same conclusions for certain parts of the country?
Anyone can set out to prove almost anything, depending on what data they use and how they 'interpret' and 'present' it. Heaven knows that should be obvious enough in here. Quoting: Okie 447203
You are precisely correct when you labeled your own flawed assumption as, "just a thought."
Because that is all your statement is... a thought - a completely erroneous and incorrect thought based in demonstrably poor logic, but yes, it is nonetheless a thought.
You might want to read the report before you demonstrate your proclivity to fly to ignorance. This would allow then you to load your brain before firing off your mouth.
I have read the report.
I have read the methodology used, the objective and analytic discussion of the findings and possible interpretations, and the data-driven conclusion which leads the near mathematically certain conclusion that:
Our findings suggest that in these terms the surge has had no observable effect, except insofar as it has helped to provide a seal of approval for a process of ethno-sectarian neighborhood homogenization that is now largely achieved but with a tremendous decline in the extent of residential intermixing between groups and a probable significant loss of population in some areas.
Now, while I guess I could have simply said, "I read the data, and their analysis and discussion of the data would dismiss your suggested attribution," as you didn't show the authors the respect of first reading their report, you sure as hell don't deserve such respect from me.
Facts, much? |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 494757
9/21/2008 7:23 PM | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
Less people = less violence = less problems. The surge is not working because of more boots on the ground, it is working because people have been killed on mass, detained and relocated nationally on mass or have moved to other countries on mass to live in refugee camps. The death toll and violence has gone down, because the targeted local people who could have made a difference have been killed(by terrorists/sectarians), captured(by occupation) or have moved away(by war between the two). Its called shock and awe, winning hearts and minds; the spreading freedom and democracy grave by grave, refugee camp by refugee camp.
our Military is over there risking thier life...do you ever consider them.. muslims are on a chosen long time killing mission. can u not understand that.... Quoting: anonymous 507443
Do you ever consider using full stops at the end of your sentences instead of ellipsis? Can you not understand English grammar? |
| jlazarus
just me :)
User ID: 348904
9/21/2008 9:26 PM
 | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
Love this:
"Geographers and social scientists find it increasingly difficult to intervene in debates about vital matters of public interest, such as the Iraq war, because of the ideological polarization and lack of respect for empirical analysis that have afflicted US politics in recent years."
I would add "that have afflicted US politics, and the mindset of 90% of the general population, in recent years"
I will accept any rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. ~ Robert Heinlein |
| Ronald Reagan (nli)
User ID: 429261
9/21/2008 10:29 PM | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
This thread has been paid for by the Obama Camp.
I'm Borax Obomination and I approve of this thread!
 |
| Okie
User ID: 447203
9/21/2008 11:51 PM | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
Street lights around the U.S., formally bright white mercury types, have been for years been been replaced with sodium to reduce the light pollution (as well as for environmental reasons).
There's been a bandwagon effort to reduce the ambient light pollution from major cities and urban areas.
So, if I wanted to prove ethnic cleansing is running rampant in the U.S., I suppose I could compare sat images of nightime light now to say 10 or 15 years back and come up with the same conclusions for certain parts of the country?
Anyone can set out to prove almost anything, depending on what data they use and how they 'interpret' and 'present' it. Heaven knows that should be obvious enough in here.
You are precisely correct when you labeled your own flawed assumption as, "just a thought."
Because that is all your statement is... a thought - a completely erroneous and incorrect thought based in demonstrably poor logic, but yes, it is nonetheless a thought.
You might want to read the report before you demonstrate your proclivity to fly to ignorance. This would allow then you to load your brain before firing off your mouth.
I have read the report.
I have read the methodology used, the objective and analytic discussion of the findings and possible interpretations, and the data-driven conclusion which leads the near mathematically certain conclusion that:
Our findings suggest that in these terms the surge has had no observable effect, except insofar as it has helped to provide a seal of approval for a process of ethno-sectarian neighborhood homogenization that is now largely achieved but with a tremendous decline in the extent of residential intermixing between groups and a probable significant loss of population in some areas.
Now, while I guess I could have simply said, "I read the data, and their analysis and discussion of the data would dismiss your suggested attribution," as you didn't show the authors the respect of first reading their report, you sure as hell don't deserve such respect from me.
Facts, much?
I will grant you one thing, your response amused me.
However, why would you even deign to think that I would be worried about or care to have the 'respect' from someone such as yourself in the first place?
Truly amusing. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 156099
9/22/2008 1:10 AM | | Re: Report: Satellite images show ethnic cleansing source of reduced Iraq violence | Quote |
I will grant you one thing, your response amused me. Quoting: Okie 447203
...Thank you, I'll be here all week. And don't forget to tip your waitress... |
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