The Secret of the Poor Souls in Purgatory | |
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Me114 User ID: 548409 United States 11/19/2008 05:03 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | ty for posting, this blessed me. also see bertha dudde's writings, they are very good :rolleyes: :ura: Sweet Thoughts! I Unknown Depths of Love, You. What Happens Next Loves me. Help me Jesus, Life will let me know. Living is Effortless Normal God Inside, Outside, Everywhere, Forever! Executive Order 13603 means slavery in the usa Thread: The End of All Things Is Upon Us - An Urgent Message from Father God Thread: Nothing is Something and Non-Existence must Exist Thread: Not Knowing is Essential to Eternal Life! Thread: Let's talk about the Evil-Mind-Beings (EMB) Thread: ALERT! Father God says, now, " I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it" Thread: WE CAN DEFEAT THE ANTICHRIST !!! |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 554760 Netherlands 11/19/2008 05:07 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | If you gain insight into the natures of the first and second deaths (Revelation), and the fact that only certain people enter heaven, while others (un-condemned) remain without and are healed, then you can appreciate the validity of thwe concept of purgatory. |
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Bob Saget User ID: 520952 United Kingdom 11/19/2008 05:12 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Where is Purgatory in Scripture? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 541166It isn't. But there is a parable about the rich man and lazarus. Know it well. How do you get Purgatory out of it? You don't. Purgatory is neither mentioned nor alluded to in the bible. It is simply a Roman catholic invention. The chariots of God are tens of thousands, and thousands of thousands. |
Reality is BS User ID: 549630 United States 11/19/2008 05:14 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Where is Purgatory in Scripture? Quoting: Bob SagetIt isn't. But there is a parable about the rich man and lazarus. Know it well. How do you get Purgatory out of it? You don't. Purgatory is neither mentioned nor alluded to in the bible. It is simply a Roman catholic invention. As is all the rest of the religous claptrap you seem to believe in. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 530536 United States 11/19/2008 05:27 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | You know, I read this before. But, I stopped at the part where the woman who died having an abortion went to heaven while the man who was devout was still in purgatory. Murder is objectively a far greater sin than having a bad attitude. There could be some mitigating circumstance which only God knows that could save this woman from hell. But, the idea that it's really only your attitude that counts and not your actions is completely ethically wrong. Therefore, this entire treatise is should be considered deceptive and demonic. There are much better examples in the Bible of the idea that appearances can be deceiving and sometimes it's the least obvious people who will obtain the greatest sanctity, for example the widow's mite, the rich man and Lazarus, the wedding feast where the last shall be first and the first last. But there are no stories to support the claim that the one who dies while committing the greater sin goes to heaven first if they have a better attitude. That is a lie and all lies are of the devil. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 224676 Sweden 11/19/2008 06:03 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Where is Purgatory in Scripture? Quoting: Bob SagetIt isn't. But there is a parable about the rich man and lazarus. Know it well. How do you get Purgatory out of it? You don't. Purgatory is neither mentioned nor alluded to in the bible. It is simply a Roman catholic invention. And indeed it has been the biggest cash cow of the Romanist system, the amount of money that has been willed to the Whore in Rome thanks to this devilish teaching. People paying money to the "church" for masses to be held for people in "purgatory". If you can pay for your own sins why did Jesus even die? That would be a pointless death, so the Romanists have denied the faith, but then again they're heathen, they've always been heathen, nothing strange here for those that have eyes to see. It's sad that these heathen have the audacity to call themselves Christian. |
ex bible thumping better than User ID: 526302 United States 11/19/2008 06:10 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 554760 Netherlands 11/19/2008 06:12 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Where is Purgatory in Scripture? Quoting: Bob SagetIt isn't. But there is a parable about the rich man and lazarus. Know it well. How do you get Purgatory out of it? You don't. Purgatory is neither mentioned nor alluded to in the bible. It is simply a Roman catholic invention. If you gain insight into the natures of the first and second deaths (Revelation), and the fact that only certain people enter heaven, while others (un-condemned) remain without and are healed, then you can appreciate the validity of thwe concept of purgatory. |
Bob Saget User ID: 520952 United Kingdom 11/19/2008 06:29 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Where is Purgatory in Scripture? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 554760It isn't. But there is a parable about the rich man and lazarus. Know it well. How do you get Purgatory out of it? You don't. Purgatory is neither mentioned nor alluded to in the bible. It is simply a Roman catholic invention. If you gain insight into the natures of the first and second deaths (Revelation), and the fact that only certain people enter heaven, while others (un-condemned) remain without and are healed, then you can appreciate the validity of thwe concept of purgatory. But it is not scriptural. [link to www.gotquestions.org] The chariots of God are tens of thousands, and thousands of thousands. |
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Starbug User ID: 549550 United States 11/19/2008 07:27 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | A very nice post OP. Certainly a topic you seldom see anymore. Oddly enough, I have been thinking a'lot about Purgatory lately. I recently found a copy of "Purgatory (explained by the lives & legends of the saints)" by Fr. F.X. Schouppe, S.J. It's a very good read-written with the layman in mind (so, it's fairly easy to read if you are a Catholic.) As I read through the book, it occurred to me that, life is NOT a playground-we have a purpose here (and that purpose is to prove ourselves worthy to the Lord.) In retrospect, it seems like after we're born, we hit the ground running-looking for something to either entertain us or distract us. It seems the last thing we want to do is ask ourselves the important questions-to connect with our maker, etc. It's understandable for kids to be amazed at all there is around us but when we become of age, we need to put childish things aside and focus on adult issues-ponder the big questions and seek our maker. Too often we waste time trying to legitimize our belief to those around us who think us mad-faith isn't something you can pitch (or measure via scientific method-save Theistic Psychology.) You either believe or you don't-in the end, it comes down to each of us procuring our own salvation so the burden lies within.) Equally important is how we handle situations that come our way. Why? Because, it is within these situations that lie two very important elements. First of all, how we address the trials & tribulations that come our way is a direct testimony of our character-better yet our worthiness in the eyes of G-d. Also, these situations provide us with the opportunity to offer the suffering up to G-d (& for those poor souls in Purgatory.) The bottom-line, we need to properly understand and appreciate that hard-times aren't just about us getting the short-end of the stick! It's also about us having the opportunity (and responsibility) of helping our neighbor-loving our neighbor as our-self! At any rate, being Catholic myself (by way of Protestantism-which I believe, has done more harm to us than any other heretical influence) I obviously accept the teaching of the Church but I can safely say that the teaching of Purgatory is rare. Sure we accept it-at face value but little is known to the lay beyond that. And, unfortunately, that's a shame because there is so much suffering in the hereafter that could be alleviated by us here (through simple prayers and acts.) If we only knew how. I believe the Church needs a radical change in this regard. Imagine masses (& services) dedicated to those souls in Purgatory (on a more routine basis-it could even be part of an educational process for future priests, etc.) Daily masses in honor of those in Purgatory could be held even in "empty" churches-the point is the process & dedication not the attendance. Parishioners could do wonders for those suffering souls through various prayers, mortifications, etc. The point being, if we pray for those suffering souls in Purgatory today , tomorrow they may pray for us-it's in our best interests to abide Purgatory and do all we possibly can for those there. At the moment we have the opportunity to secure our salvation and even to help those less fortunate souls in Purgatory but there will come a day when we draw our last breath and what will be, will be-when that time comes, we may wish we had been more "giving" of our time to those suffering souls in Purgatory. Why? Well, beyond the reason of it being the right thing to do, those souls may very well be in Heaven and you in Purgatory. If that is so, as Saints, their power, their relationship to G-d will hold a'lot of weight-it could be in your favor-or NOT! G-d is real. Life after death is real. Purgatory is real (so, is Hell.) So, think long & hard where you stand on the subject because your position may span eternity! Take the time (while you have it) to secure your salvation with God. Afterwards, live a good life. Also, remember those in Purgatory-they will remember you (nothing motivates like suffering!) Cheers, Starbug Link to the book "Purgatory" by Fr. F.X. Schouppe, S.J. [link to www.amazon.com] iStarbug So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure, How amazingly unlikely is your birth, And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space, 'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth. Monty Python - Galaxy Song |
anonanon User ID: 272356 United States 11/19/2008 08:13 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The early Catholic Church made up purgatory simply because most people's "sins" are rather minor after all. Most people are not murderers and thieves. Not now, not then. And in the Medieval Period, life in Europe was truly hell on earth so they had to have someplace you could go that you could get out of. Also made them a big profit in the selling of indulgences to lessen your alloted time in purgatory - as if God's mercy could be bought. I do think there is a type of life after death here. Not sure what it is but any rationales I have ever seen to explain purgatory make me think well, then their version of God is a real S-O-B and he really doesn't love us all and can be bought. Doesn't sound God-like to me. Also, seems to me that the buying of indulgences is a bit like the environmentalist groups trying to make people buy carbon offsets for the air they breathe which is carbon dioxide on the way out, and whatever energy they use. Better plan would be to re-forest the rain forests around the world and plant lots of plants everywhere. Faith in God has nothing to do with purgatory. It is a concept of severe punishment for minor offenses that was meant to scare illiterate peasants into obedience. Worked pretty well too. |
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Anonymous Coward User ID: 530536 United States 11/19/2008 09:05 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Maccabees 12:43-46) There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come." According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life "some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire." St. Augustine also argues "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (City of God XXI.24). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers. A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15: "For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved. This, according to Bellarmine (De Purg., I, 5), is the interpretation commonly given by the Fathers and theologians; and he cites to this effect: St. Ambrose (commentary on the text, and Sermo xx in Ps. cxvii), St. Jerome, (Comm. in Amos, c. iv), St. Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37), St. Gregory (Dial., IV, xxxix), and Origen (Hom. vi in Exod.). See also St. Thomas, "Contra Gentes,", IV, 91. For a discussion of the exegetical problem, see Atzberger, "Die christliche Eschatologie", p. 275. Tradition This doctrine that many who have died are still in a place of purification and that prayers avail to help the dead is part of the very earliest Christian tradition. Tertullian "De corona militis" mentions prayers for the dead as an Apostolic ordinance, and in "De Monogamia" (chapter 10) he advises a widow "to pray for the soul of her husband, begging repose for him and participation in the first resurrection"; he commands her also "to make oblations for him on the anniversary of his demise," and charges her with infidelity if she neglect to succour his soul. This settled custom of the Church is clear from St. Cyprian, who (P.L. IV, col. 399) forbade the customary prayers for one who had violated the ecclesiastical law. "Our predecessors prudently advised that no brother, departing this life, should nominate any churchman as his executor; and should he do it, that no oblation should be made for him, nor sacrifice offered for his repose." Long before Cyprian, Clement of Alexandria had puzzled over the question of the state or condition of the man who, reconciled to God on his death-bed, had no time for the fulfilment of penance due his transgression. His answer is: "the believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God's righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one, "yet" etc. (P.G. IX, col. 332). In Origen the doctrine of purgatory is very clear. If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. "For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Corinthians 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works." (P.G., XIII, col. 445, 448). |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 497155 United States 11/19/2008 09:06 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Purgatory and saying prayers for the dead is about the only part of Catholicism that I like or makes sense. Are there any standard prayers to use? I always wonder what would happen if I was praying for someone I thought was in the lower planes, and instead they're in a much higher heaven. How would I know where they really are and whether they still need prayers or whether they've already moved on. It's kind of like praying blindly, hoping it's right. And then I feel like because I'm praying for that person, that I'm drawing that person to me, and now I've got this person living with me night and day. It makes me uncomfortable not knowing the real status of the soul that I'm praying for. |
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Starbug User ID: 549550 United States 11/20/2008 12:41 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The early Catholic Church made up purgatory simply because most people's "sins" are rather minor after all. Most people are not murderers and thieves. Not now, not then. Quoting: anonanonAnd in the Medieval Period, life in Europe was truly hell on earth so they had to have someplace you could go that you could get out of. Also made them a big profit in the selling of indulgences to lessen your alloted time in purgatory - as if God's mercy could be bought. I do think there is a type of life after death here. Not sure what it is but any rationales I have ever seen to explain purgatory make me think well, then their version of God is a real S-O-B and he really doesn't love us all and can be bought. Doesn't sound God-like to me. Also, seems to me that the buying of indulgences is a bit like the environmentalist groups trying to make people buy carbon offsets for the air they breathe which is carbon dioxide on the way out, and whatever energy they use. Better plan would be to re-forest the rain forests around the world and plant lots of plants everywhere. Faith in God has nothing to do with purgatory. It is a concept of severe punishment for minor offenses that was meant to scare illiterate peasants into obedience. Worked pretty well too. ----------------------------------- Like most institutions, the Church has had it's fair share of less than ideal situations-bad popes, corrupt policies, etc. The Church has also publicly admitted this and it has put forth mechanisms to prevent such unfortunate incidences from reoccurring. But, to generalize this event-to pigeonhole it as nothing more than a social dictate (with neither merit or biblical basis) or a scheme from which to fleece the flock shows ignorance of the policy, if not contempt for the Church! And, I say that constructively because, more often than not, people buy into and regurgitate the same ol' anti-Catholic rhetoric simply because they either are altogether non-believers or they are believers of another persuasion-Protestants (with an agenda-to undermine any & everything Catholic related.) Here's the bottom-line, the policy of Purgatory is biblical (as proven by Anonymous Coward-User ID: 530536 from this same thread) and it does provide a legitimate service to our dearly departed. Furthermore, Creation is much more complex (and beautiful) than most people realize. Just as quantum physics is revealing a magical matrix structure that constitutes reality-life and genetics has all but handed us the finger-print of G-d in our DNA, we are also starting to understand & appreciate from the teachings of the Bible, the oral traditions of the Church and the experiences of the Saints that there is a rhyme & reason to the Lord's definition of life (as well as a hierarchy that provides oversight in such matters.) By dictate of sound reason & logic we must admit the Truth-no longer can we ignore G-d or take an elementary view of life (and it's holographic nature!) iStarbug So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure, How amazingly unlikely is your birth, And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space, 'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth. Monty Python - Galaxy Song |
Lost Fisherman User ID: 226145 United States 11/20/2008 12:51 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Where is Purgatory in Scripture? Quoting: Bob SagetIt isn't. But there is a parable about the rich man and lazarus. Know it well. How do you get Purgatory out of it? You don't. Purgatory is neither mentioned nor alluded to in the bible. It is simply a Roman catholic invention. WRONG. You might want to look up the purpose of a Jewish prayer called the Mourner's Qaddish, and why they pray it for 11 months after the decedent is buried. "Uhhhhhh......" Barack Obama |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 530885 United States 11/20/2008 01:06 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Purgatory and saying prayers for the dead is about the only part of Catholicism that I like or makes sense. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 497155Are there any standard prayers to use? I always wonder what would happen if I was praying for someone I thought was in the lower planes, and instead they're in a much higher heaven. How would I know where they really are and whether they still need prayers or whether they've already moved on. It's kind of like praying blindly, hoping it's right. And then I feel like because I'm praying for that person, that I'm drawing that person to me, and now I've got this person living with me night and day. It makes me uncomfortable not knowing the real status of the soul that I'm praying for. Just pray from the heart, and don't worry about praying for someone that doesn't need it. God will use your prayers for a soul that does if that's the case. |
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Anonymous Coward User ID: 1155050 Canada 11/07/2010 01:00 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | There is no such thing as purgatory. The passage in Machabees referring to prayers for the dead states very plainly that they understood these prayers to be of value at the resurrection, not for the present time. In the Apocalypse it says that death and hell will give up the souls that are in them, thus it would be unnecessary for there to be a 'purgatory'. Catholics are told to believe purgatory to be exactly like hell but not eternal, yet the Apocalypse says that hell itself is not eternal but will surrender the souls that are in it at the Judgment. It goes on to say that death and hell themselves will be cast into the lake of fire and done away with. Corinthians refers to the teachings or ideas added to the basic premise that Jesus is the Son of God. It has nothing to do with the soul, it refers to the additional teachings, the works themselves, not the souls of men. It asserts that any new teachings must stand the test of scrutiny and practical application, and if they turn out to be wrong then the person who came up with them loses any reward for it. It says that the person himself will be saved; 'though as through fire' is just a figure of speech. It doesn't mean actual fire, there is no trial or purification in the afterlife; it means in this life. The whole notion of purgatory was indeed invented by the Catholic Church as a means to get money from naive people. This was at a time when most people did not have their own Bible, in fact it was forbidden for them to even read it for a long time. William Tynedale solved that problem by translating the Bible into English, and was killed for it. The Catholic Church is an abomination. |