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| | Page 1, 2, 3, 4 | On Jesus and the early Christians
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 81918
11/15/2008 12:38 PM | | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
So, he didnt match the description of the Messiah in the prophets of OT. (The Messiah-king of the Jews was both a religious and a political leader/soldier who would save Israel and punish its enemies.)
Please provide the scriptural citations from the Old Testament that prophesy this. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 81918
Please provide the scriptural citations from the Old Testament that prophesy this.
And state your reasons why you think they do not apply to Jesus.
Thanks. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 81918
11/15/2008 12:43 PM | | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
The fact is that there are a multitude of prophecies about the coming of the Messiah. They fall into two categories. One Messiah was to be a sacrificial Lamb of God who would be put to death.
The other Messiah was to be a great leader who would destroy the enemies of the Jewish people. The second Messiah has not come yet, but most people believe that he is coming soon.
This is an interesting point. Can you give me some references to the first Messiah prophecies? I think its only one or two in the whole, if I remember well.
It is interesting.
Here's a start:
[ link to www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org]
Tractate Sukkah
Chapter V
It would be right according to one who holds that it was for the Messiah the son of Joseph, because he explains as supporting him the passage [Zech. xii. 10]: "And they will look up toward me (for every one) whom they have thrust through, and they will lament for him, as one lamenteth for an only son, and weep bitterly for him, as one weepeth bitterly for the firstborn"
....
The rabbis taught: The Messiah b. David, who (as we hope) will appear in the near future, the Holy One, blessed be He, will say to him: Ask something of me and I will give it to thee, as it is written [Ps. ii. 7-8]: "I will announce the decree . . . Ask it of me, and I will give," etc. But as the Messiah b. David will have seen that the Messiah b. Joseph who preceded him was killed, he will say before the Lord: Lord of the Universe, I will ask nothing of Thee but life. And the Lord will answer: This was prophesied already for thee by thy father David [Ps. xxi. 5]: "Life hath he asked of thee, thou gavest it to him."
79:1 There was a tradition among the ancient Hebrews that two Messiahs would appear before the redemption of Israel one of the tribe of Joseph and one of the tribe of Jehudah, a descendant of David and the expression "who was killed" means who will have been killed. The Jewish Christians at that time, who did not believe in the divinity of Christ, but in his Messiahship (i.e., that the traditional Messiah ben Joseph meant the son of a man by the name of Joseph, but not of the tribe of Joseph, as Christ was, and that his fate was to be killed before the appearance of Messiah b. David), explain this passage to have reference to Christ.
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From The Messiah Texts - Jewish Legends of Three Thousand Years, by Raphael Patai (pp. 165-6):
Messiah ben Joseph, also called Messiah ben Ephraim, referring to his ancestor Ephraim, the son of Joseph, is imagined as the first commander of the army of Israel in the Messianic wars. He will achieve many signal victories, but his fate is to die at the hands of Armilus in a great battle in which Israel is defeated by Gog and Magog. His corpse is left unburied in the streets of Jerusalem for forty days, but neither beast nor bird of prey dares to touch it. Then, Messiah ben David comes, and his first act is to bring about the resurrection of his tragic forerunner.
...
When the death of the Messiah became an established tenet in Talmudic times, this was felt to be irreconcilable with the belief in the Messiah as the Redeemer who would usher in the blissful millennium of the Messianic age. The dilemma was solved by splitting the person of the Messiah in two: one of them, called Messiah ben Joseph, was to raise the armies of Israel against their enemies, and, after many victories and miracles, would fall victim to Gog and Magog. The other, Messiah ben David, will come after him (in some legends will bring him back to life, which psychologically hints at the identity of the two), and will lead Israel to the ultimate victory, the triumph, and the Messianic era of bliss.
Seneca,
Do you have dates for these writings?
Did they pre-date or post-date the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem?
I ask this because if these writings came afterward, they could be part of the Judaism's attempt to stem the tide of converts away from Judaism to Christianity.
Thanks |
| The Scruptues were Fulfilled
User ID: 429261
11/15/2008 12:51 PM | | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
Jesus was well aware that doubters would come and say he didn't fit the "scriptures". In the Gospels Jesus is often concerned that things had to work out as in the scriptures. I guess the scriptures said Jesus would die so we have this comment Jesus made:
MATTHEW
26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? 26:55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.
26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
I think the scriptues also said Jesus would come back from the dead. And so after Jesus comes back he says the following to his disciples:
Luke
24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 546121
11/15/2008 12:53 PM | | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
Ok I feel a bit confused with this issue. I want to express my thoughts but I find it quite difficult. And my english is not helping me much.
Anyway, I m not sure Jesus ever existed. There is not much evidence outside the NT and other Christian documents, and the story we all have been taught and the other documents we have studied later in our life contain so many contradictions, discontinuities and "mythical" elements that are very difficult to ignore.
But again, if he didnt exist, I find it very difficult to come to a well-founded hypothesis on what really happened back then (or even a bit later in time).
Lets accept that he existed. And we want to look at him as he is described in the formal gospels.
He was a Jew. He was teaching to Jews. He was the head of a movement. This movement was based in the jewish religion.
But he wasnt a usual prophet (the description of a usual prophet was that of John the Baptist)
And he wasnt a rebel of his time (they used armed forces)
So, he didnt match the description of the Messiah in the prophets of OT. (The Messiah-king of the Jews was both a religious and a political leader/soldier who would save Israel and punish its enemies.)
Then why did his early followers try to make him look like he was the Messiah? Why did they add all these details in his life that assured the Jews that this was the One they were expecting?
And if these are not fiction elements in the story but true details of his life, why did he accept this role, as long as he didnt want it?
It seems to me that we have Jesus (and maybe a few of his followers) in one hand, and the magority of his followers in the other and these are two very different cases.
I feel that the ones couldnt understand and accept the others, they were two different movements in one.
And then after his death (resurrection or whatever) his followers established his church but under their own concept. Am I wrong? Quoting: Ostria
I just woke up awhile back and didn't sleep well but I recommend you read the book of daniel and the part about 70 7 year periods. "but not for himself." Also look at psalm 22. Also look at when Jesus reads Isaiah notice how he stops mid prophecy. |
| Seneca 
User ID: 551602
11/15/2008 12:56 PM
 | | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
Seneca,
Do you have dates for these writings?
Did they pre-date or post-date the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem?
I ask this because if these writings came afterward, they could be part of the Judaism's attempt to stem the tide of converts away from Judaism to Christianity.
Thanks Quoting: Anonymous Coward 81918
They were written well into the Christian era. I don't have an exact date for those passages, but probably somewhere between the third and sixth centuries A.D. And the earliest MMS date from the ninth century or later. |
| rodm
User ID: 538113
11/15/2008 1:08 PM | | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
Your English seems fine to me.....
Also if you doubt the history of Jesus (as a man)...Thats a brave stance, since even secular historians agree HE existed...
Now if we can get beyond that point then I would say, forget the old test prophecies, which are themselves alone, a great proof..
Look to Jesus's own words to the disciples about the temple being destroyed in 70ad...Which is a historical fact...
These things should speak volumes to an "OPEN" Mind!!!
Is it open? |
| Seneca
User ID: 551602
11/15/2008 1:10 PM
| | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
The point I was making is that the Rabbis themselves realized that the Messianic prophecies could not be reconciled -- in other words, the prophecies of the suffering servant and the prophecies of the conquering king. Hence, they postulated two Messiahs.
The New Testament interpretation of the Messianic prophecies is different. There is only one Messiah, but two Advents -- the first Advent as the suffering servant and the second Advent as the conquering king. |
| Seneca
User ID: 551602
11/15/2008 1:24 PM
| | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
And such was what Jesus Christ taught:
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Jesus Christ was quoting Isaiah 61:1-2
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Note that He stopped in the middle of verse 2, closed the book, and stated "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears." In other words, the fulfillment of the first Advent. The day of vengeance was not to be fulfilled in the first Advent, but the second. |
| Seneca
User ID: 551602
11/15/2008 2:05 PM
| | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
He was teaching to Jews. Quoting: Ostria
Yes and no. The House of Judah comprises the Jews, but the House of Israel comprises the gentiles (literally: nations) who are the descendents of Jacob / Israel.
Consider the following:
[link to www.jewishencyclopedia.com]
According to the Bible, Tiglath-pileser (II Kings xv. 29) or Shalmaneser (ib. xvii. 6, xviii. 11), after the defeat of Israel, transported the majority of the inhabitants of the Northern Kingdom to Assyria, and placed them in Halah and Habor, on the stream of Gozan, and in the towns of Media. In their stead a mixed multitude was transported to the plains and mountains of Israel. As a large number of prophecies relate to the return of "Israel" to the Holy Land, believers in the literal inspiration of the Scriptures have always labored under a difficulty in regard to the continued existence of the tribes of Israel, with the exception of those of Judah and Levi (or Benjamin), which returned with Ezra and Nehemiah. If the Ten Tribes have disappeared, the literal fulfilment of the prophecies would be impossible; if they have not disappeared, obviously they must exist under a different name.
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In the Old Testament, the Northern Kingdom -- the House of Israel -- went into Assyrian captivity. They never returned. The Southern Kingdom -- the House of Judah -- went into Babylonian captivity, but some returned.
Here is a passage from Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews, XI. 5. 2.:
When Esdras had received this epistle, he was very joyful, and began to worship God, and confessed that he had been the cause of the king's great favor to him, and that for the same reason he gave all the thanks to God. So he read the epistle at Babylon to those Jews that were there; but he kept the epistle itself, and sent a copy of it to all those of his own nation that were in Media. And when these Jews had understood what piety the king had towards God, and what kindness he had for Esdras, they were all greatly pleased; nay, many of them took their effects with them, and came to Babylon, as very desirous of going down to Jerusalem; but then the entire body of the people of Israel remained in that country; wherefore there are but two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Iomans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers. |
| rodm
User ID: 538113
11/15/2008 2:13 PM | | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
The point I was making is that the Rabbis themselves realized that the Messianic prophecies could not be reconciled -- in other words, the prophecies of the suffering servant and the prophecies of the conquering king. Hence, they postulated two Messiahs.
The New Testament interpretation of the Messianic prophecies is different. There is only one Messiah, but two Advents -- the first Advent as the suffering servant and the second Advent as the conquering king. Quoting: Seneca
OK, it just shows that they were confused about the messiahs arrival, as are today about HIS COMING vs HIS APPEARING and the coming og the Antichrist!!! |
| Seneca
User ID: 551602
11/15/2008 2:26 PM
| | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
OK, it just shows that they were confused about the messiahs arrival, as are today about HIS COMING vs HIS APPEARING and the coming og the Antichrist!!! Quoting: rodm
To be fair, the apostles were confused, too, prior to His resurrection.
Luk 24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
Luk 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
Luk 24:8 And they remembered his words,
Luk 24:9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.
Luk 24:10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
Luk 24:11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
Here we have the men who were taught by Jesus Christ Himself, and they still didn't (at that point) understand. |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 551807
11/15/2008 2:39 PM | | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
Here we have the men who were taught by Jesus Christ Himself, and they still didn't (at that point) understand. Quoting: Seneca
It's interesting that the two times the disciples didn't understand and in fact, in one case walked away from him because they would not accept what he was saying to them, was at the resurrection and at the synagogue at Capernaum when he was teaching his real presence in the Eucharist in John 6. |
| Seneca
User ID: 551602
11/15/2008 2:56 PM
| | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
Here we have the men who were taught by Jesus Christ Himself, and they still didn't (at that point) understand.
It's interesting that the two times the disciples didn't understand and in fact, in one case walked away from him because they would not accept what he was saying to them, was at the resurrection and at the synagogue at Capernaum when he was teaching his real presence in the Eucharist in John 6. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551807
And even today, Christians have differing understandings of the Eucharist.
I think the problem may be more of semantics than doctrine. Timothy Ware, in one his books on the Orthodox Catholic Church (I forget which one), has an excellent explanation of the Eucharist with which most Protestants, I think, would find difficult to disagree. |
| rodm
User ID: 538113
11/15/2008 3:58 PM | | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
OK, it just shows that they were confused about the messiahs arrival, as are today about HIS COMING vs HIS APPEARING and the coming og the Antichrist!!!
To be fair, the apostles were confused, too, prior to His resurrection.
Luk 24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
Luk 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
Luk 24:8 And they remembered his words,
Luk 24:9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.
Luk 24:10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
Luk 24:11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
Here we have the men who were taught by Jesus Christ Himself, and they still didn't (at that point) understand. Quoting: Seneca
Yes but this just proves that they were taught by years of religious culture and had a hard time understanding the teaching of Jesus because it was so...Out there for them.
BUT...What it really shows is that they understood "AFTER THEY RECEIVED THE PROMISE FROM THE FATHER"
|
| Ostria
User ID: 551873
11/15/2008 4:46 PM
 | | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
Please provide the scriptural citations from the Old Testament that prophesy this.
And state your reasons why you think they do not apply to Jesus.
Thanks. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 81918
Well I guess I m mistaken talking about OT. Although there is a reference of the earthly kingdom of the "Messiah" in Ezekiel, Zachariah and Haggai.
The most "earthly" Messianic elements come later, after the Maccabee's dynasty and the Roman occupation. But by the time of Jesus there was a great expectation of an earthly saviour among the jews (most sects).
John Collins (prof. uni of Chicago) writes "The presence or absence of messianism was primarily determined by the political attitudes and circumstances of the different groups within Judaism. Those who placed their hopes in the institutions and leaders of their day, whether the High Priests, the Ptolemies, or the Maccabees, had little interest in messianism. Apocalyptic groups developed the idea of a transcendent savior figure, either as an alternative or as a complement to earthly messianism. Only with the rise of the Qumran community do we find a group with a strong and developed interest in messianism, and then again in the first century BCE in the Psalms of Solomon."
And the Jewish scholar Jacob Neusner adds "We focus upon how the system laid out in the Mishnah takes up and disposes of those critical issues of teleology worked out through messianic eschatology in other, earlier versions of Judaism. These earlier systems resorted to the myth of the Messiah as savior and redeemer of Israel, a supernatural figure engaged in political-historical tasks as king of the Jews, even a God-man facing the crucial historical questions of Israel's life and resolving them: the Christ as king of the world, of the ages, of death itself." |
| Ostria
User ID: 551873
11/15/2008 4:56 PM
| | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
He was teaching to Jews.
Yes and no. The House of Judah comprises the Jews, but the House of Israel comprises the gentiles (literally: nations) who are the descendents of Jacob / Israel. Quoting: Seneca
Do we have other references apart from jewish and christian sources that some other people believe to be of the lost tribes of Israel? I 've never heard of this, maybe they exist. eg. the Callas (kallas) of Afghanistan insist that they are of greek origin, descendants of Alexander's soldiers and their gods are Alexander and Zeus. |
| Ostria
User ID: 551873
11/15/2008 5:01 PM
| | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
And Seneca, I searched Josephus and I didnt find him mentioning Yeshu ben Pantera at all. (we talked about it in one of mathetes thread's) |
| Seneca
User ID: 551602
11/15/2008 5:04 PM
| | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
Yes but this just proves that they were taught by years of religious culture and had a hard time understanding the teaching of Jesus because it was so...Out there for them.
BUT...What it really shows is that they understood "AFTER THEY RECEIVED THE PROMISE FROM THE FATHER"
Quoting: rodm
Perhaps.
Consider this passage from the Midrash regarding the Messiah:
[link to www.sacred-texts.com]
Five things brought about the redemption of the Israelites from Egypt: (1) The sufferings of the people (2) their repentance; (3) the merits of their ancestors (4) the expiration of the time fixed for their captivity (5) the mercy of their God. These same causes will operate towards the realization of Israel's Messianic hopes and lead to the last redemption through Messiah.--Deut. Rabba 2.
There will be a great difference between the Egyptian and the last redemption. 'When you were delivered from Egypt,' says God to Israel, 'you had to depart in haste; at the last deliverance you shall not go in haste nor by Right, (Isa. 52. 12). At the Egyptian deliverance I, in my manifestation, went before you (Exod. 13. 21). At the last deliverance 'the Lord will go before you and the God of Israel will be your reward.' (Isa. 52. 12).--Exod. Rabba 19.
'All your former redemptions,' God says to Israel, have been accomplished through the instrumentality of men, and were, consequently, not lasting in their effect. You were delivered from Egypt through Moses and Aaron; you were rescued out of the hands of Sisera by Deborah and Barak; from the power of Midian you were saved by Shamgar. I myself will be your last and your everlasting Redeemer.'--Tanchuma Achray.
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Is the Midrash in this passage suggesting the divinity of the Messiah? |
| Seneca
User ID: 551602
11/15/2008 5:39 PM
| | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
He was teaching to Jews.
Yes and no. The House of Judah comprises the Jews, but the House of Israel comprises the gentiles (literally: nations) who are the descendents of Jacob / Israel.
Do we have other references apart from jewish and christian sources that some other people believe to be of the lost tribes of Israel? I 've never heard of this, maybe they exist. eg. the Callas (kallas) of Afghanistan insist that they are of greek origin, descendants of Alexander's soldiers and their gods are Alexander and Zeus. Quoting: Ostria
The Jewish Encyclopedia gives a brief list of theories regarding the descendents of the House of Israel.
[link to www.jewishencyclopedia.com]
"The numerous attempts at identification that have been made constitute some of the most remarkable curiosities of literature."
----
Josephus, as I quoted above, stated that the House of Israel (in the first century A.D.) was already a multitude that could not be numbered. Recall the promises to Abraham that was passed on to Isaac and then to Jacob / Israel, that their descendents would become as the sand of the sea and the stars of the sky.
Here is a website that advocates one of the theories listed in the Jewish Encyclopedia.
[link to www.britam.org] |
| Seneca
User ID: 551602
11/15/2008 6:05 PM
| | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
As for secular history, it appears that the signatories of the Declaration of Arbroath (April 6, 1320) believed they were descendents of the House of Israel:
The Declaration of Arbroath (English Translation)
[link to www.geo.ed.ac.uk]
Excerpt:
To the most Holy Father and Lord in Christ, the Lord John, by divine providence Supreme Pontiff of the Holy Roman and Universal Church, his humble and devout sons Duncan, Earl of Fife, Thomas Randolph, Earl of Moray, Lord of Man and of Annandale, Patrick Dunbar, Earl of March, Malise, Earl of Strathearn, Malcolm, Earl of Lennox, William, Earl of Ross, Magnus, Earl of Caithness and Orkney, and William, Earl of Sutherland; Walter, Steward of Scotland, William Soules, Butler of Scotland, James, Lord of Douglas, Roger Mowbray, David, Lord of Brechin, David Graham, Ingram Umfraville, John Menteith, guardian of the earldom of Menteith, Alexander Fraser, Gilbert Hay, Constable of Scotland, Robert Keith, Marischal of Scotland, Henry St Clair, John Graham, David Lindsay, William Oliphant, Patrick Graham, John Fenton, William Abernethy, David Wemyss, William Mushet, Fergus of Ardrossan, Eustace Maxwell, William Ramsay, William Mowat, Alan Murray, Donald Campbell, John Cameron, Reginald Cheyne, Alexander Seton, Andrew Leslie, and Alexander Straiton, and the other barons and freeholders and the whole community of the realm of Scotland send all manner of filial reverence, with devout kisses of his blessed feet.
Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today.
----
Compare the above with this exerpt for the Jewish Encyclopedia:
[link to www.jewishencyclopedia.com]
The identification of the Sacæ, or Scythians, with the Ten Tribes because they appear in history at the same time, and very nearly in the same place, as the Israelites removed by Shalmaneser, is one of the chief supports of the theory which identifies the English people, and indeed the whole Teutonic race, with the Ten Tribes. Dan is identified sometimes with Denmark, and sometimes with the Tuatha da Danaun of Irish tradition; but the main argument advanced is that the English satisfy the conditions of the Prophets regarding Israel in so far as they live in a far-off isle, speak in a strange tongue, have colonies throughout the world, and yet worship the true God. |
| Seneca
User ID: 551602
11/15/2008 7:14 PM
| | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
There may also be a connection between Israel and the Greeks:
Consider these passages from Josephus:
Antiquities of the Jews, XII. iv. 10.
At this time Seleucus, who was called Soter, reigned over Asia, being the son of Antiochus the Great. And [now] Hyrcanus's father, Joseph, died. He was a good man, and of great magnanimity; and brought the Jews out of a state of poverty and meanness, to one that was more splendid. He retained the farm of the taxes of Syria, and Phoenicia, and Samaria twenty-two years. His uncle also, Onias, died [about this time], and left the high priesthood to his son Simeon. And when he was dead, Onias his son succeeded him in that dignity. To him it was that Areus, king of the Lacedemonians, sent an embassage, with an epistle; the copy whereof here follows:
"AREUS, KING OF THE LACEDEMONIANS, TO ONIAS, SENDETH GREETING.
"We have met with a certain writing, whereby we have discovered that both the Jews and the Lacedemonians are of one stock, and are derived from the kindred of Abraham. It is but just therefore that you, who are our brethren, should send to us about any of your concerns as you please. We will also do the same thing, and esteem your concerns as our own, and will look upon our concerns as in common with yours. Demoteles, who brings you this letter, will bring your answer back to us. This letter is four-square; and the seal is an eagle, with a dragon in his claws."
Antiquities of the Jews, XIII. v. 8.
Jonathan having thus gotten a glorious victory, and slain two thousand of the enemy, returned to Jerusalem. So when he saw that all his affairs prospered according to his mind, by the providence of God, he sent ambassadors to the Romans, being desirous of renewing that friendship which their nation had with them formerly. He enjoined the same ambassadors, that, as they came back, they should go to the Spartans, and put them in mind of their friendship and kindred. So when the ambassadors came to Rome, they went into their senate, and said what they were commanded by Jonathan the high priest to say, how he had sent them to confirm their friendship. The senate then confirmed what had been formerly decreed concerning their friendship with the Jews, and gave them letters to carry to all the kings of Asia and Europe, and to the governors of the cities, that they might safely conduct them to their own country. Accordingly, as they returned, they came to Sparta, and delivered the epistle which they had received of Jonathan to them; a copy of which here follows: "Jonathan the high priest of the Jewish nation, and the senate, and body of the people of the Jews, to the ephori, and senate, and people of the Lacedemonians, send greeting. If you be well, and both your public and private affairs be agreeable to your mind, it is according to our wishes. We are well also. When in former times an epistle was brought to Onias, who was then our high priest, from Areus, who at that time was your king, by Demoteles, concerning the kindred that was between us and you, a copy of which is here subjoined, we both joyfully received the epistle, and were well pleased with Demoteles and Areus, although we did not need such a demonstration, because we were satisfied about it from the sacred writings yet did not we think fit first to begin the claim of this relation to you, lest we should seem too early in taking to ourselves the glory which is now given us by you. It is a long time since this relation of ours to you hath been renewed; and when we, upon holy and festival days, offer sacrifices to God, we pray to him for your preservation and victory. As to ourselves, although we have had many wars that have compassed us around, by reason of the covetousness of our neighbors, yet did not we determine to be troublesome either to you, or to others that were related to us; but since we have now overcome our enemies, and have occasion to send Numenius the son of Antiochus, and Antipater the son of Jason, who are both honorable men belonging to our senate, to the Romans, we gave them this epistle to you also, that they might renew that friendship which is between us. You will therefore do well yourselves to write to us, and send us an account of what you stand in need of from us, since we are in all things disposed to act according to your desires." So the Lacedemonians received the ambassadors kindly, and made a decree for friendship and mutual assistance, and sent it to them.
----
Note that there is speculation that "an eagle with a dragon in his claws" was the symbol for the tribe of Dan.
Note also that the House of Judah would offer sacrifices for all the tribes, even though all were not present. |
| Seneca
User ID: 551602
11/15/2008 7:35 PM
| | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
The Greek / Israel connection has also been recognized by scholars:
The Common Background of Greek and Hebrew Civilizations, by Cyrus H. Gordon
Hellenosemitica. An Ethnic and Cultural Study in West Semitic Impact on Mycenaean Greece, by Michael C. Astour
The East Face of Helicon: West Asiatic Elements in Greek Poetry and Myth, by Martin L. West |
| Seneca
User ID: 551602
11/15/2008 7:44 PM
| | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
There is also this curious statement in John 7:35.
Joh 7:35 The Jews therefore said among themselves, Whither will this man go that we shall not find him? will he go unto the Dispersion among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks?
The KJV has "Gentiles" instead of "Greeks", but the RV quoted above is correct. The Greek texts have Hellenas. |
| Ostria
User ID: 551873
11/15/2008 7:49 PM
| | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
There may also be a connection between Israel and the Greeks:
Consider these passages from Josephus:
Antiquities of the Jews, XII. iv. 10. Quoting: Seneca
I know this story but we cant confirm it as we have no written evidence of such a connection in the greek literature. I will try to see if I can find something more tommorow.
I know there are some stories on the Phoenicians in Greece (Kadmus in Thebes).Greeks used to see them as "foreigners". |
| Seneca
User ID: 552304
11/16/2008 9:23 AM
| | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
I know this story but we cant confirm it as we have no written evidence of such a connection in the greek literature. I will try to see if I can find something more tommorow.
I know there are some stories on the Phoenicians in Greece (Kadmus in Thebes).Greeks used to see them as "foreigners". Quoting: Ostria
Aside from the books listed above from Gordon, Astour, and Martin, discussing the connections between the Greek and Hebrew civilizations, we have what is purportedly from a fourth century B.C. Greek Hecataeus of Abdera:
Pseudo-Hecataeus on the Jews: Legitimizing the Jewish Diaspora, by Bezalel Bar-Kochva, University of California Berkeley, 1997, pp. 18-19:
Excerpts:
[link to www.escholarship.org]
2. The Jewish Excursus
Hecataeus's Jewish excursus was much discussed in the last century. Being actually the first comprehensive account of Jews and Judaism in Greek literature, it was used by later gentile authors as a basic source of information on the subject.
...
Like his major works, Hecataeus's original ethnographic account on Jews and Judaism has not been preserved. Diodorus incorporated an abbreviated paraphrase of it in Book XL of the Historical Library (3.1-8), which is itself now lost, but his version of Hecataeus's Jewish ethnography is preserved by Photius, the Byzantine patriarch of the ninth century.
...
From the fortieth book [of Diodorus], about the middle:
[3.1] Now that we intend to record the war against the Jews, we consider it appropriate to give first an outline of the foundation from its beginning, and of the customs practiced among them.
When in ancient times a pestilence arose in Egypt, the ordinary people ascribed their troubles to the working of a divine power; for indeed with many strangers of all sorts dwelling in their midst and practicing different habits of rites and sacrifice, their own traditional observances in honor of the gods had fallen into disuse. [3.2] Hence the natives of the land surmised that unless they removed the foreigners, their troubles would never be resolved. At once, therefore, the aliens were driven from the country, and the most outstanding and active among them banded together and, as some say, were cast ashore in Greece and certain other regions; their leaders were notable men, chief among them being Danaus and Cadmus. But the greater number were driven into what is now called Judea, which is not far distant from Egypt and was at that time utterly desolate. [3.3] The colony was headed by a man called Moses, outstanding both for his wisdom and courage. |
| Ostria
User ID: 551873
11/17/2008 6:42 AM
| | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
Hi Seneca.
Diodorus records the story as Egyptians told him. When the a pestilence came in Egypt, the locals blamed the foreigners who lived there ("many strangers of all sorts" means many different groups of foreigners not only one group of people).
So when these foreigners left, some went to Greece with Danaus and Cadmus as leaders (and here the greek sources of the myth say that these two groups go BACK to greece because they were both descendents of Io, who came from Argos to Egypt years before)
and the most populated group went to Judea guided by their leader, Moses.
Different people go to different locations. At least this is how I understand it.
And there is an interesting point in the greek sources, recorded by Pausanias on Danaus.
"On coming to Argos he claimed the kingdom against Gelanor, the son of Sthenelas. Many plausible arguments were brought forward by both parties, and those of Sthenelas were considered as fair as those of his opponent; so the people, who were sitting in judgment, put off, they say, the decision to the following day. At dawn a wolf fell upon a herd of oxen that was pasturing before the wall, and attacked and fought with the bull that was the leader of the herd. It occurred to the Argives that Gelanor was like the bull and Danaus like the wolf, for as the wolf will not live with men, so Danaus up to that time had not lived with them. It was because the wolf overcame the bull that Danaus won the kingdom. Accordingly, believing that Apollo had brought the wolf on the herd, he founded a sanctuary of Apollo Lycius."
—Pausanias, Description of Greece, 2.19.3 - .4
The sanctuary of Apollo Lykeios ("wolf-Apollo", but also Apollo of the twilight) was still the most prominent feature of Argos in Pausanias' time: in the sanctuary the tourist might see the throne of Danaus himself, an eternal flame, called the fire of Phoronius.
So I guess if the Danaans had a symbol (I havent found any reference yet on their symbols) this should be the wolf and not the eagle. And again, it seems that Danaus believed in Appolo a greek god (or to a sun god in general). |
| Anonymous Coward
User ID: 551686
11/17/2008 7:11 AM | | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
But again, if he didnt exist, I find it very difficult to come to a well-founded hypothesis on what really happened back then (or even a bit later in time). Quoting: Ostria
"They" (whoever they are) needed another allegorical "white stone" (the .
There was Osiris, mfkzt, bread, manna, then "golden calf" (related to that age or eon) and then "Jesus" (related to the age of pisces).
What the new name will be noone seems to know because the story has been corrupted by the beast (rome) and no longer resembles any of the original archetypes. |
| Seneca
User ID: 553305
11/17/2008 7:00 PM
| | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
Hi Seneca.
Diodorus records the story as Egyptians told him. When the a pestilence came in Egypt, the locals blamed the foreigners who lived there ("many strangers of all sorts" means many different groups of foreigners not only one group of people).
So when these foreigners left, some went to Greece with Danaus and Cadmus as leaders (and here the greek sources of the myth say that these two groups go BACK to greece because they were both descendents of Io, who came from Argos to Egypt years before)
and the most populated group went to Judea guided by their leader, Moses.
Different people go to different locations. At least this is how I understand it. Quoting: Ostria
Hi, Ostria. It may be that there's not enough evidence to know for sure what connection, if any, there may have been between the Danaans and the Tribe of Dan. And it's not surprising since we are trying to piece together history from prior to the sixteenth century B.C.
I found this Io story in Apollodorus (c. second century A.D.):
[link to www.theoi.com]
Excerpts:
Argus and Ismene, daughter of Asopus, had a son Iasus, who is said to have been the father of Io. But the annalist Castor and many of the tragedians allege that Io was a daughter of Inachus9; and Hesiod and Acusilaus say that she was a daughter of Piren. Zeus seduced her while she held the priesthood of Hera, but being detected by Hera he by a touch turned Io into a white cow10 and swore that he had not known her; wherefore Hesiod remarks that lover's oaths do not draw down the anger of the gods.
...
Then she journeyed through Illyria and having traversed Mount Haemus she crossed what was then called the Thracian Straits but is now called after her the Bosphorus.16 And having gone away to Scythia and the Cimmerian land she wandered over great tracts of land and swam wide stretches of sea both in Europe and Asia until at last she came to Egypt, where she recovered her original form and gave birth to a son Epaphus beside the river Nile. Him Hera besought the Curetes to make away with, and make away with him they did. When Zeus learned of it, he slew the Curetes; but Io set out in search of the child. She roamed all over Syria, because there it was revealed to her that the wife of the king of Byblus was nursing her son; and having found Epaphus she came to Egypt and was married to Telegonus, who then reigned over the Egyptians. And she set up an image of Demeter, whom the Egyptians called Isis, and Io likewise they called by the name of Isis.
...
Reigning over the Egyptians Epaphus married Memphis, daughter of Nile, founded and named the city of Memphis after her, and begat a daughter Libya, after whom the region of Libya was called.21 Libya had by Poseidon twin sons, Agenor and Belus.22 Agenor departed to Phoenicia and reigned there, and there he became the ancestor of the great stock; hence we shall defer our account of him.23 But Belus remained in Egypt, reigned over the country, and married Anchinoe, daughter of Nile, by whom he had twin sons, Egyptus and Danaus,24 but according to Euripides, he had also Cepheus and Phineus. Danaus was settled by Belus in Libya, and Egyptus in Arabia; but Egyptus subjugated the country of the Melampods and named it Egypt <after himself>. Both had children by many wives; Egyptus had fifty sons, and Danaus fifty daughters. As they afterwards quarrelled concerning the kingdom, Danaus feared the sons of Egyptus, and by the advice of Athena he built a ship, being the first to do so, and having put his daughters on board he fled.
Here are quotes from other sources about Io:
[link to www.theoi.com] |
| Seneca
User ID: 553305
11/17/2008 7:21 PM
| | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
The sanctuary of Apollo Lykeios ("wolf-Apollo", but also Apollo of the twilight) was still the most prominent feature of Argos in Pausanias' time: in the sanctuary the tourist might see the throne of Danaus himself, an eternal flame, called the fire of Phoronius.
So I guess if the Danaans had a symbol (I havent found any reference yet on their symbols) this should be the wolf and not the eagle. And again, it seems that Danaus believed in Appolo a greek god (or to a sun god in general). Quoting: Ostria
We have this passage from Homer's Iliad where an eagle clutching a snake is taken as an omen in favor of the Danaans:
[link to classics.mit.edu]
While they were busy stripping the armour from these heroes, the youths who were led on by Polydamas and Hector (and these were the greater part and the most valiant of those that were trying to break through the wall and fire the ships) were still standing by the trench, uncertain what they should do; for they had seen a sign from heaven when they had essayed to cross it- a soaring eagle that flew skirting the left wing of their host, with a monstrous blood-red snake in its talons still alive and struggling to escape. The snake was still bent on revenge, wriggling and twisting itself backwards till it struck the bird that held it, on the neck and breast; whereon the bird being in pain, let it fall, dropping it into the middle of the host, and then flew down the wind with a sharp cry. The Trojans were struck with terror when they saw the snake, portent of aegis-bearing Jove, writhing in the midst of them, and Polydamas went up to Hector and said, "Hector, at our councils of war you are ever given to rebuke me, even when I speak wisely, as though it were not well, forsooth, that one of the people should cross your will either in the field or at the council board; you would have them support you always: nevertheless I will say what I think will be best; let us not now go on to fight the Danaans at their ships, for I know what will happen if this soaring eagle which skirted the left wing of our with a monstrous blood-red snake in its talons (the snake being still alive) was really sent as an omen to the Trojans on their essaying to cross the trench. The eagle let go her hold; she did not succeed in taking it home to her little ones, and so will it be- with ourselves; even though by a mighty effort we break through the gates and wall of the Achaeans, and they give way before us, still we shall not return in good order by the way we came, but shall leave many a man behind us whom the Achaeans will do to death in defence of their ships. Thus would any seer who was expert in these matters, and was trusted by the people, read the portent."
Another source is the Greek coins from the sixth century B.C. and later that have the emblem of the eagle clutching the snake.
Here are some examples:
[link to www.wildwinds.com] |
| Seneca
User ID: 553305
11/17/2008 7:46 PM
| | Re: On Jesus and the early Christians | Quote |
Here is a passage from Strabo:
[link to penelope.uchicago.edu]
And Euripides too, in his Archelaus, says: "Danaus, the father of fifty daughters, on coming into Argos, took up his abode in the city of Inachus, and throughout Greece he laid down a law that all people hitherto named Pelasgians were to be called Danaans."
And another from Diodorus:
[link to penelope.uchicago.edu]
28 Now the Egyptians say that also after these events a great number of colonies were spread from Egypt over all the inhabited world. To Babylon, for instance, colonists were led by Belus, who was held to be the son of Poseidon and Libya; and after establishing himself on the Euphrates river he appointed priests, called Chaldaeans by the Babylonians, who were exempt from taxation and free from every kind of service to the state, as are the priests of Egypt; and they also make observations of the stars, following the example of the Egyptian priests, physicists, and astrologers. They say also that those who set forth with Danaus, likewise from Egypt, settled what is practically the oldest city in Greece, Argos, and that the nation of the Colchi in Pontus and that of the Jews, which lies between Arabia and Syria, were founded as colonies by certain emigrants from their country; and this is the reason why it is a long-established institution among these two peoples to circumcise their male children, the custom having been brought over from Egypt. |
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