ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!

Cyzgy. Looking at your post. I see NO exegesis about the Bible. It's all about me. I notice some name calling. Yeah. Definitely. You make a LITANY of my supposed character flaws. Pretty negative stuff here boy. You call me a hypocrite. That I take strong exception to.


Yeah, there is a schizoid element here...you speak of kindness and admonishment and then unleash a torrent of insults and character assassination.hypocrisy indeed.


I will be proud that I defended the Word of the Lord against false prophets and teachers like OP here. And I have real,live passion about the Word and if someone does violence to it, I take an in-your-face approach. It's the only way to go because underneath their churchey style these false teachers are arrogant,insufferably egotistical people who presume to rewrite Holy Writ. again, OP is exhibit A. I encounter these types in my ministry. ALL the time. I know how to deal with them. I got this guy out of hiding and into the open with his goofball interpretations of 2 Thessalonians pronto. Did I catch him with his pants down ? He didn't even have time to put them on for god's sake.You've got to get a stick down that snakehole before the snake knows what you're doing. Then he's revealed. You don't do it being nice and pretending that,' gee...false teachers and heretcs are people too." They ARE people. hellbound people if they don't straighten out.



There is a time and a place to be kind,long-suffering and gentle in one's approach. However,the occasion of encountering lying reconstruction of the Bible is NOT one of them. Jesus proved that axiom with HIS abuse of the pharisees. And he DID abuse them. Make no mistake. Read the gospels. And they had it coming.

rb...love ya man,well girl...lady...yes we must love and comfort. But I remember a verse in there about REPROVING,REBUKING and EXHORTING and the more as we see the day approaching. I think the golden mean or balance is neccessary in our approach. And in this thread my goal was not to comfort the OP in his lying distortions but to do what I could to DISCOMFORT him every way I could. I am doing that deceiver a favor,whether anyone recognizes it or not. My approach is deliberate. anyway...just saying... maranatha.

Only those holding the Covenant of GOD will be Raptured.


Most Christians are secretly Catholics for they all read the Catholic version of the Bible the one edited at the council of nicea 364AD. But don't fret, I'm sure those catholics know what they're doing little boy lovers usually do, take for instance all the knowledge we got from the ancient Greeks, lol, your gonna have to read the Bible that includes the Book of Enoch like the Ethiopians did.

Book of Thessalonian was written in 50AD and many apostles were schooled by the Book of Enoch which was written centuries before the New Testament.


Book Of Enoch.


2Enoch.65:[6]There will be one aeon, and all the righteous who shall escape the LORD'S Great judgment, shall be collected in the Great aeon, for the righteous the Great aeon will begin, and they will live eternally, and then too there will be amongst them neither labour, nor sickness.

LORD'S Great judgment, shall be collected in the Great aeon,


The One who wrote the story "first" is the AUTHOR of that story, you gotta believe in the GOD in which the rapture story was written in to be a part of that story. Judaism is a forged copy from the book of Enoch that's why the rapture is mentioned in Joel, and thereafter in the New Testament.

This OP stands revealed as the fake teacher and promoter of false doctrine that he is. I did my job. The pharisees took a beating when encountering Jesus and 2000 years later they STILL take a beating when they encounter someone with Jesus,the love of Jesus and His Word, living on the inside.It will ever be so. Amen.

Your version is nothing more than your viewpoint on what the word of God says. In other words, your personal interpretation. Your interpretation will never have the capability to dictate to any other human being in the world that your version is the explicit word of God.
(It can be for you though)

You are not the Holy Spirit, nor will you ever be the Holy Spirit. This is the only interpreter we are told to trust. It does not matter at all what any flawed human person says. The true test for truth is confirmation by the HS, not you.

My beef is not with timing of the rapture, it is your approach being that of foolishly placing yourself in the seat of the HS who is the only divine interpreter of truth.

Besides, why even argue this? Isn't it better to just prepare for His return rather than spend time arguing over it?

His return is imminent. That is all any Christian needs to be concerned with, really.

VH how do you interpret Daniel 12 where it seems clear the Antichrist has already committed the abomination of desolation before the dead rise and God's people are delivered?

OP how do you interpret Rev 19 where it appears the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and His bride precedes His physical appearance on the white horse with His army?

love rb

ps I'm a man and cyzygy is a woman and she's super nice -- I'm not called to rebuke or revile when I do it I feel terrible for days -- it takes courage to confront and I prefer the gentle approach myself!

rb- getting back to the bible eh ? Fair enough. Re; Daniel 12 exhibits something common in prophetic utterance : it is RECAPITULATORY. For example, there is no sense to be made chronologically out of Revelation unless we discern where there are overlapping,recapitultory phrasing and chapter construction that presents material already covered again. Daniel 12 recapitulates what is said in ch. 9 and elsewhere. Here it looks like a summarizing coda. This is the ONLY way to make sense out of Jesus' endtime discourses as well.Hardest part is knowing where linear narration ends and recapitulating verses begin and end.

Me too, RB. The Spirit has restrained me from saying what I said until this time, and it is a long time in coming.

I love everyone on GLP, even the ones with hateful attitudes, and I try to treat them as such. Why will ANYONE want to accept the Messiah if we do not embody the fruits of His Spirit?

I have been slapped down more than once on GLP, and instead of crying foul or defiantly defending myself I take it before the Throne of the Almighty, in the spirit of a child, and ask Him whether it is true or not and what I need to do to rectify it.

A wise man takes rebuke and considers if it, and corrects himself. A fool will not think it necessary.

And, for what it is worth, RB, you and I are kindred spirits on many things concerning scripture.

Pre-trib belief is not a prerequisite for salvation.

ok VH if it's not a linear narrative Christians will most likely always disagree on the recaps -- I can understand that. for me as a critical thinker considering all sides I remain confounded.

it is nearly impossible for me to align Daniel with Revelation -- if someone could do this I'd love to see that!

thanks cyzygy I'm more of an evangelist -- I much prefer bringing people into the Kingdom than attempting to correct those of us who are already here!

with encouraging gentle kindness I remain here in love!

and hoping for peace and joy

rb

Well lets look at the very first verse of Rev 19:

It says: "And after these things" and then it eventually describes the marriage supper of the Lamb. So what precedes the marriage supper? If you look it is judgement on Mystery Babylon.

The question now becomes - when does this judgement of babylon come on the prophetic timeline? Is it before or after the great trib?

Rev 12,13 & 14 answers this question

Here is the chronilogical order:

Women with 12 stars moon under feet (Israel)
Brings forth a child (Christ)
Dragon draws third part of stars (Satan and his minion come to destroy Christ)
War in heaven between satan and michael the archangel
Satan cast on to earth with no return to heaven
Satan is full of wrath because time is short
Israel set in the wilderness for 3 1/2 years
Satans begins warring campaign against Israel and Christians
Satan produces the antichrist
Power is given to the ac for 42 months to make war with the saints and to overcome them(the great trib)
Satan produces the false prophet
False prophet makes world submit to ac through mark of beast
144,000 before the throne
Angel declares the hour of God's judgment has come
(This is what Rev 18 describes in greater detail)

Another angel declares that Babylon is fallen

NOW IS WHEN THE MARRIAGE SUPPER OF REVELATION 19 takes place because it states in Rev 19:1-2 that it is after the destruction of Babylon.

Armageddon commences (mirrored also in latter part of rev 19.)

This clearly teaches us that the marriage of the lamb takes place AFTER the great trib and AFTER the destruction of Mystery Babylon. There is no room for a pre-trib argument.

Thanks for the question.

^The H-O-L-Y S-P-I-R-I-T has spoken.

ok thanks OP

you left out the physical return of Christ where might you put that on your timeline?

love and peace rb

RB, again, in all love, I sense in my spirit that you remain confounded because you've been trying by your own self life's (soul life) power to figure out what must be revealed by the power of the Holy Spirit. You're an extremely humble person with a sweet spirit, and I also sense that you're very intelligent. Your mind probably runs nearly nonstop trying to figure things out. Does it sometimes keep you up at night b/c you can't still your mind? That's what I'm sensing, but perhaps I'm wrong. But I do know this: God dragged me out of my devotional reading this morning to get on this computer and tell you that He wants to reveal to you what you're so desperately trying to figure out, but He can't b/c you won't relinquish the power of your intelligence (part of your self/soul life) to the Lord in this matter and confess that no matter how intelligent you are, you could be Einstein and not understand the things of the Spirit. This might be a stupid analogy, but I liken it to the old saying that when you're not looking for your husband/wife is when it happens, meaning we just have to get out of the way and allow it to happen.

Peace.

thanks michelle for thinking of me and I know you're praying for me!

and you're right my intellect is more a hindrance than a help in this spiritual matter

peace love and joy

rb

God Bless You. Thank you for waking the church up to its responsibility to preach the gospel in good and bad times. The book of acts helps one to see how it can go. Also other parts of the world atm much persecution. So it can happen.

Honestly I think it will be near the very very end as you have said.

You left out the harvest mentioned in the book of Revelation not the one of those into the winepress but the other one of believers.

Well, if you look at Rev 19, you see that the time of the marriage of the Lamb has come, and then it begins describing the physical second coming of Christ. That's when it takes place.

His return is imminent. That is all any Christian needs to be concerned with, really.

Not Free Indeed.

The bible has been altered by the Satanic Catholic Church or The Whore, it was done so you do not understand end time prophecies by removing many books and replacing them with a Vatican version.

For example the abomination that causes desolation has already occurred and yet no sign of the Son of Man. Why? Because books that reveal end times prophecies were removed. And the proof is the following.


Mark.13:[14]"When you see the desolating abomination standing where he should not (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains,

(15)and a person on a housetop must not go down or enter to get anything out of his house,

(16)and a person in a field must not return to get his cloak.

(17)Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days.

(18)Pray that this does not happen in winter.

(19)For those times will have tribulation such as has not been since the beginning of God's creation until now, nor ever will be.

[20]If the Lord had not shortened those days, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect whom he chose, he did shorten the days.

(21)If anyone says to you then, 'Look, here is the Messiah! Look, there he is!' do not believe it.

(22)False messiahs and false prophets will arise and will perform signs and wonders in order to mislead, if that were possible, the elect.

(23)Be watchful! I have told it all to you beforehand.

(24)"But in those days after that tribulation the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light,

(25)and the stars will be falling from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.

[26]And then they will see 'the Son of Man coming in the clouds' with great power and glory,

-----------------------------------------

The desolation has occurred, and that which stands there is still standing there today (the Mosque). Islam according to Jesus and Mark is the abomination building its Mosque upon the ashes of the Temple (Root of David) and Islam declared publicly there upon that Jesus is not the son of God rather a man/prophet. This event should have triggered the rest of Mark where the Son of Man descends.


Only the Ethiopian Bible holds the Word of GOD

Only in the Ethiopian Bible will you understand end time prophecies.

Only the Ethiopian Bible will you possess the "Covenant of the Ark."

Yes the word is DEPARTURE. DEPARTURE FROM THE TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL. Read II Thess 2:9-10

9Even him,(antichrist) whose coming is AFTER the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Do you see the rapture of the church being described here anywhere? Verse 10 IS defining the word DEPARTURE as being the falling away from the truth of the gospel.

Once again you are ripping verses out of context. Paul explains himself 3 TIMES about what the DEPARTURE is in this one chapter and yet you are still applying your own definitions. Scary.

Once again, your imminence doctrine is taken severly out of context.

This doctrine has it’s beginnings in Matt 24:43

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the THIEF would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

We must obey the law of context. Let’s read the surrounding verses:

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jump down to verse 36 Christ continues his description WITHIN THE CONFINES OF A POST TRIBULATION DESCRIPTION!!

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I absolutely agree with this verse. Christ makes it perfectly clear that NO MAN can know that exact time of Christ’s return. This does not mean that we cannot know the month or the year!

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

This is a definite description of the gathering described in Matt 24:31

Let's continue:

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the THIEF would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

This verse begins the “thief in the night” analogy that is referenced throughout the rest of the New Testament.

Do you see that when these verses are put together that are all in relation to the Post trib rapture event described by Christ?

Can you see that the “thief” analogy is in context with verses 29-31?

The point that Christ is trying to convey is that he only comes as a thief to those who aren’t ready and are not watching for his post tribulation return!!

In rev 3:3
Christ reminds the church of Sardis:

3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

He uses the thief analogy again. He says: “watch for my second coming OR I will come upon you as a thief.

Paul addresses this same topic:

I Thess Chapter 5:2-6
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Paul clearly tells us that for those who are watching, that day will not overtake us as a thief!

It is imminent ONLY for those who are not watching for the preceding signs and finally for his return!

His return is imminent. That is all any Christian needs to be concerned with, really.

As for me I'd rather be about His work in the meantime by witnessing the salvation message of Christ to the lost; not arguing "rapture timing" amongst the brethren who are already Heaven bound NO MATTER when Jesus returns!

It's the lost that need us, not the saved!

So I assume from this duplicate post that you are standing on your statement? I also notice that you have no form of rebuttal backed by scriptural proof. Are you willing to still stand on your statement? Because if you do, then you are in direct opposition to the very Word of God. Is that your intention?

As for me I'd rather be about His work in the meantime by witnessing the salvation message of Christ to the lost; not arguing "rapture timing" amongst the brethren who are already Heaven bound NO MATTER when Jesus returns!

It's the lost that need us, not the saved!

Why do I always get this statement from pre-tribbers when they are backed into a corner? You guys always love to throw this in when you have no other ground to stand on. You had no problem arguing up till now? Now all of a sudden your off to witness to the world? Give me scriptural proof of an imminent return of Jesus Christ or take your false doctrine somewheres else.

The ground we all ultimately stand on is our personal relationship with Christ.

Personally, I do not find any fruitfulness in my walk with Jesus by engaging in doctrine wars. That is not why God put me here on this earth.

As far as arguing rapture timing; I never stated what I believe rapture timing to be anywhere on this thread.

Again, I'd rather love His appearing and spend my time worrying about lost souls, not concentrating on striving with the saved.

To each their own.

Then what are you doing here then?

Bringing to light to those who may read this thread and not yet know the Lord, that they should trust ONLY the Holy Spirit as the interpreter of Scripture.

And, bringing to light that there are lost souls that need the witness of the Cross and Salvation.

And finally, bringing to light that it is possible that some might be chased away by seeing God's children fighting and striving amongst each other; for there are some Christian's who do not wish to engage in or approve of "doctrine wars." This is not what salvation in Christ is about, IMO.

No OP- What is scary is your capacity for making up scripture interpretattion as you go along. The DEPARTURE is when the church is TAKEN out of the way 4 verses later. You choose a phrase 10 verses later that has NO contextual or syntactical relationship to the departure.


Who do you think you're kidding with this Wizard-of-Oz approach to Bible Hermeneutics ? Only yourself. Thessalonians is about Chronology,not apostasy.



You are also making believe I didn't already point out that the greek "hee aphisteemi" is THE departure and that in places in the New Testament where this means religious apostasy,there are always modifying phrases indicating that. There are no such phrases here in 2 Thessalonians and this is a word simply meaning "departure". The earliest english translations translated it as such : Cranmer,Beza,the geneva bible and others...all rendered it correctly from the greek as such.



So you have a word signifying movement AWAY and 4 verses later you have someone TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. These have an obvious linguistic and syntactical connection. NO GREEK SCHOLAR WOULD SUPPORT YOUR TRANSLATION. You are indulging your penchant for eisegesis...again.


Going back to your previous posts on this,you posted a truly confused,obtuse interpretation stating that "he who now LETS will let' means an apostate "letting" iniquity work in him. You absolutely stand revealed as FUNDAMENTALLY DISHONEST in your desire to MAKE these verses support your post-tribulational heresy here. I will prove it presently.


The word "let" in the KJV does not mean "allow" in greek the way you are interpreting it in an inaccurate manner to force your interpretation. That word means to restrain or hold back. EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE OF HOW YOU RENDER IT. That phrase has NOTHING to do with an apostate letting ANYTHING happen,it is about the restraing power the church of Jesus has over Satan to BIND his power and works. That is central to the whole commission of Christ and the entire new Testament and in this context it shows that Paul is writing about the DEPARTURE of the church ,when it is TAKEN out of the way in the pre-tribulation Rapture. And we know this is PRE tribulation because in both cases the antichrist is revealed AFTER this Rapture. Paul's language and intent is SO CLEAR you had to FALSIFY the greek words themselves ,giving them an opposite meaning than what they carry and what Paul intended. In the process you outfitted yourself with a cap and bells. You are a JOKE as a BIBLE INTERPRETER ! And you proved it all by yourself in that previous lunatic,convoluted post of so called interpretation. If it's any comfort to you,post-tribulation people ALWAYS come up with interpretive FANTASIES when trying to get out of what Paul and Jesus clearly taught about the pre-tribulation rapture.



You make a complete fool of yourself in this,re-post some meaningless generalities and then say my accurate textual rendering is "scary".Yes, i can well imagine you do find my careful scholarship scary compared to your post-tribulational fantasyland. You are not only a joke as an interpreter,you're a false teacher of false doctrine and worst of all,you're a faker who won't admit that his goofball New Testament doctrinal "interpretations" are made up as you go along. I do notice you avoid any mention of your foolishness interpreting 2 Thessalonians and the ridiculous way you interpret "let" like the plague. And well you ought to. If it was me, I'd be ashamed of this false teaching also.



Anyway, THANK YOU, for posting what you did. You are a TYPE. Post-tribulation people are much better at COMEDY than CAREFUL TEXTUAL ANALYSIS. You are no exception. You might get on Letterman with this foolish-Bible-trick routine. But you will never get into the rapture with it, that's for damned sure.

Do you not realize tho, that to the OP and others as well, the same sentiment is felt about you?

Why is your interpretation right, and that of all others are wrong? It is, afterall, "interpretation", of which there is no definate nor defined answer outside of the one doing the interpreting.

Do you not realize that to the outsider, as well as other Christians, that puts you off as being incredibly arrogant?

Reading your last post...again...it is ABUNDANTLY clear that this isn't an exegetical debate or "argument" over interpretation. Your view cannot be dignified with the word "interpretation". Yours is an attempt by a heretical proponent to IMPOSE something upom the Bible text THAT ISN"T EVEN THERE.


You say, in bold print no less,the daparture is from the faith and then cite verses 9-10 as an elaboration. That's 10 verses later and there is no linguistic connection to any "departure" of any kind alluded to there ! You merely say there is and figure claiming it is good enough. I can see you are no stranger to slipshod,shoot-from-the-hip eisegetical meanderings into heresy... in this case the post tribulational eschatological heresy you propound so ineptly.



You don't merely suffer from wrong interpretation. You are FUNDAMENTALLY DISHONEST in the way you approach reading scripture.



You studiously and disingenuosly ignore the fact that the DEPARTURE( of the church) and the TAKING(of the church) are intended to convey a movement away,an exodus of someone Paul alludes to with the personal pronoun "he'. Any New Testament scholar or Christian knows that the power to restrain or bind satan("let" in KJV)is by the indwelling third person of the trinity in the church which is the Body of Christ in Pauline teaching. 'He" who restrains is the Holy Spirit and he does so through the anointed church,the ecclesia9 "called out") of Christ. You rankly falsify this central teaching here and try to twist the language to say this is about apostasy,just so you can push your pst-trib agenda. Well, you stand revealed as a false teacher who even falsifies the scriptures themselves to try to make your "points". You've done great damage to your post-tribulational agenda in being this brazenly dishonest in your handling of the Bible.


You are a pharisee. A person who pretends to have a religious agenda with God but who in fact has made up his own agenda. Before you presume to be an interpreter of the Bible or a teacher;you better complete your first works. In your case,you had better cleanse youself of this penchant for dishonesty and scriptural prevarication.