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ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!

 
VAN HELSING
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11/21/2008 09:11 PM
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I don't like this guy. He distorts scripture and is teaching false doctrine. My "histrionics" are appropriate. I think I will let the One who excoriated the pharisees be the judge of whether my style of engagement is correct in his case.
rb
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11/21/2008 09:14 PM
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but didn't the One command us to love one another and indicate they will know us by our love?

love rb
VAN HELSING
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11/21/2008 09:17 PM
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PREACH the Word....REPROVE,REBUKE,exhort with all longsuffering and DOCTRINE.

2 Timothy 4:2
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/21/2008 09:19 PM
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VH, The only thing you have proven is how arrogant you are.

Are you going to answer my question or not?
VAN HELSING
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11/21/2008 09:21 PM
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I am not loving this guy's distortive reading of the Bible and false doctrine any more than Jesus loved the pharisees'. Jesus called the pharisees VIPERS for god's sake. I haven't used that one on the OP.




but..you know...the way he slithers out of anwsering questions and serious exegetical points etc. I think we can safely say we are dealing with..well...a REPTILE ? yeah, a REPTILE.
VAN HELSING
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WHEN have you ever or will you ever answer mine;like how you wrongly interpreted a simple greek word and made it the BASIS for your exegesis of 2 Thessalonians ? And all the other questions, direct and implied that you have have been careful NOT to answer ? Eh ? God, you're such a faker OP. You have a SPIRIT of self-deception. You don't need training in greek,or hermeneutics...you need to be delivered of a bad spirit. Exorciso Te.
rb
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11/21/2008 09:38 PM
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pretrib theologians struggled with the falling away/man of sin revealed thing in Thessalonians until one came up with the departure definition for apostasy.

to me awful shaky ground

it is a big hole in pretrib theory but doesn't fully abrogate it

it just seems strange that we would be harpazoed then the beast comes then we are gathered together with Jesus

isn't the harpazo the gathering together?

the passage is excruciatingly difficult and I personally have to really really squint to see rapture in apostasy

that being said why would the two witnesses and the 144,000 be necessary if the Christians were still around? so dispensationalism has a strong argument there

also if we are to be comforted by Paul's words it's kind of difficult if what he was saying was we would suffer persecution and martyrdom

difficult

love and joy and comfort!

rb
VAN HELSING
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Yeah OP, I think i will look at my posts and COUNT:

1)
All the very carefully wrought exegetical points I made directly to you in rebuttal of yours,which you ignored.


2) All the implied questions



3) All the questions i directly asked you.



There a dozens of these. How many did YOU answer ?
I will tell you: ZERO.


And now you officiously insist that I play a child's infantile game of question and answer,with you asking the questions and steering the conversation and m e obediently answering your foolishness. You really live in your own little world,don't you ? You are the hot shot OP who SOLVED the question of the rapture according to the moniker on the thread (woo-hoo- that's a real thigh slapper. pardon me while i laugh THAT one out.) So- go for it. You have utterly failed for about 12 pages of replies. Maybe you can fail for 50 more. maybe 100. I will be here to hold you responsible for your inane distortions of the Bible. Don't worry.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/21/2008 09:48 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
So now I'm demon possessed because I oppose your ridiculous doctrine? You are classic. Why do I get the feeling that if we continue, you will be eventually convinced that I am the very antichrist coming to prey on innocent christians. Boo! HAHAHAHAHA!




HEY Van "HELL" "SING"

Do you know that the bible is plain to the fact the rapture is referred to as the the day of the Lord/Day of Christ?

Do you know that the OT tells us that the day of the Lord is marked by sun/moon/stars darkened?

Do you know that YOUR LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST describes these SAME celestial anomalies as happening immediately after the great trib?

Can you put 2 and 2 together?

AGAIN, THE DAY OF CHRIST IS THE COMING OF LORD JESUS CHRIST AND OUR GATHERING UNTO HIM.

Do you realize that this means Paul in II Thess 2 tells us that before the day of Christ which is when our gathering will take place, that a falling away must happen first and the antichrist revealed?

You cannot separate the day of christ and the gathering.

Do you realize now that the bible directly opposes a pre-trib view?
seeker
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11/21/2008 09:51 PM
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Believing there is a Rapture of the Church or not does not mean you are right and your way is actual.

God's ways are always higher than ours. With that said, I want to report the below writing of someone who met Jesus and his old minister, who had died prior to this meeting in heaven, and a email reply to a question I asked him:



Mark Copfer (8 Nov 2008)
"This is a must read NOW! EXCITING"
[link to www.fivedoves.com]

-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------

Sent to me from my motherinlaw. Please read the following



Scott Walkington experienced a life after death experience. We have talked with him on several occasions and he spoke at our church. When he speaks, he is very articulate and he gives details that would be difficult to relate if this experience had not been real. Jesus gave Scott seven events that were to happen before the rapture.(1st Thes. 4:13-17; 5:1-4.)

The following is Scott's thoughts on the past election. The fulfillment of the following will be the verification of whether Scott had a dream or his life after death experience was real. Whatever happens, this is definitely a time for Christians to pray for our families and our nation.
Joyce


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Prophecy
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 00:46:57 -0600



Dear friends in Christ,

Before I start, let me make this statement ... I'm just a messenger, nothing more, nothing less.

Many of you asked in the past year or so who might be elected the next president, based on the Seven Signs that Jesus gave me in my heaven experience. And I answered that Obama's campaign seemed to match many of the issues that Jesus promised in this next candidate. I would have liked to shared this prophecy back then, but I did not want it to look like a political advertisement. So I chose to write about this AFTER the election.

I can also tell you that this presidential election based on my heaven experience is prophecy being fulfilled. We're just one more milestone closer to the rapture.

Just remember...except for local elections, last Tuesday's election was the LAST presidential election we will ever experience before the rapture. There will be no more! Isn't that exciting?

Here is what's yet to happen.

1. Coming in January (inaugeration) ... Due to a "problem", Obama will NOT be sworn in as the next president. He will never take that office. Why? I don't know. This is the missing piece to the puzzle. We must wait in anticipation to see whatever this "problem" might be.

2. Bush will be forced to extend his presidential term until this "problem" can be resolved. Remember, Jesus told me, "The president you know right now (meaning Bush) will be the last president you will know at the time of the rapture."

3. Violence will erupt within our nation due to this "problem". What might this be? Rioting? Demonstrations? Terrorism? We will wait and see.

4. Jesus told me, "Your troops will be brought home from around the world, but this does not mean peace." Then my minister, Rev. John Rice, (in heaven) said, "When this happens, stay off the airplanes, the trains and the interstate highways. If you must cross a river, use a less traveled bridge or a ferry. When driving, use as many backroads as possible." Then Jesus told me, "Your nation will need all the help it can get to defend itself."

5. World War III will erupt. All the nations will turn against this nation, blaming Bush for this "problem", but by the time the world realizes that Bush was not to blame, it will be too late.

6. Missiles will be dropped on cities on the east coast, then the west coast, making 9/11 look very minimal.

7. Then by the time we see missiles and fighter jets flying above us in all directions right here at home and you feel like it can't get any worse than this, that's when you know the rapture is about to take place.

Our nation will lose this war badly. It will be the end of the United States. At this time the one world government and the antichrist will take over.

All these things I learned from my heaven experience. Jesus also told me, "These are all in God's plan. As horrible as these events may seem, these events must happen in order for the rapture to take place. But you must fear not, for as you see these things happen, you must realize these are merely milestones as we get closer to the rapture. Just do your works as normally as you possibly can. Then when this time comes, I will call you and everyone else on My list, in the twinkle of My eye, just that fast."

Let me finish by saying, I'm just a messenger, nothing more, nothing less.

God bless,
Scott



--------
In an email to Scott, I asked:


Scott,

I got to ask, if you've got the time, are you saying Pres. Bush will be the last president and Mr. Obama will not make it to the White House?? It sure sounds like a lot has to happen within the next 50 days or so for that to be fulfilled.

Thanks,

Chuck



========================================His reply:


Chuck,

When Jesus spoke to me, he said, "The president you know right now is the last president you will know at the time of the rapture." Later when He was describing the Seventh (Last) Sign, He told me, "You may see elections and you may even know who that next president will be, but that next president will never take office. ..."

Scott


You can order his CD (for 5.00) from the following address:


Mail your request to:

Scott Walkington
RR 1
Virden IL 62690
Free Indeed

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abduct
>>
VAN HELSING
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11/21/2008 09:59 PM
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No OP- You don't have a demon because you disagree with me; but because of the fundamentally dishonest approach you take to interpetation of scripture; I am willing to entertain the notion that you are deceived or oppressed by one. The doctrine twisters are called logoi, btw, by our Eastern Orthodox brothers. Yeah, you might have a few kicking around the house,or in your head. Not beyond the pale of possibility. Why ? Looking for a good deliverance minister ? I'll pray for you in this regard if you want.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/21/2008 10:13 PM
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If I were satan (and I'm not VH) I would try to convince christians that they will not go through the tribulation so that when it happens, and they realize that they are, they will be caught way off guard. Then I would prey on the dazed and confused.

I certainly would not be broadcasting the fact that there actually IS no pre-trib rapture and that I was eveuntaully coming with great wrath against them for 3 1/2 years. I would try to keep it secret.

What you are trying to do is keep it secret. I am here to expose it so that the dazed and confused come into the light of the truth before it's too late.
rb
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11/21/2008 10:15 PM
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ok OP then it looks like everything will happen in one day?

we will meet Jesus in the middle of the air, have the marriage supper, the bowls will be poured out then we will triumphantly return with Him to end Armageddon in one day?

not beyond the realm of possibility but to me implausible.

btw when theologians first started meeting to discuss this a long time ago they at first agreed to amically disagree -- but after some time quite an acrimonious battle developed not unlike here. this was many many decades ago...

love peace joy and harmony

rb
rb
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11/21/2008 10:20 PM
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If I were satan (and I'm not VH) I would try to convince christians that they will not go through the tribulation so that when it happens, and they realize that they are, they will be caught way off guard. Then I would prey on the dazed and confused.

I certainly would not be broadcasting the fact that there actually IS no pre-trib rapture and that I was eveuntaully coming with great wrath against them for 3 1/2 years. I would try to keep it secret.

What you are trying to do is keep it secret. I am here to expose it so that the dazed and confused come into the light of the truth before it's too late.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607

excellent points OP I've reached similar conclusions myself entirely independently, albeit without being dogmatic in any way

we may well be being put in place to instruct with wisdom in case pre 70th week harpazo doesn't happen

as for the 3 1/2 years where are the other 3 1/2 of Daniel's 70th week in your view?

love rb
Free Indeed

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>>
Charles Fort
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11/21/2008 10:36 PM
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O-P no one from other religions like Hinduism, Muslims or Christians will be a part of the Rapture. Book Of Enoch was the first book. Every other book was stacked next to it as time went by.

2Enoch.65:[6]There will be one aeon, and all the righteous who shall escape the LORD'S Great judgment, shall be collected in the Great aeon, for the righteous the Great aeon will begin, and they will live eternally, and then too there will be amongst them neither labour, nor sickness.

LORD'S Great judgment, shall be collected in the Great aeon,
LORD'S Great judgment, shall be collected in the Great aeon,

The One who wrote the story "first" is the AUTHOR of that story, you gotta believe in the GOD in which the rapture story was written in to be a part of that story.
Michelle

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Believing there is a Rapture of the Church or not does not mean you are right and your way is actual.

God's ways are always higher than ours. With that said, I want to report the below writing of someone who met Jesus and his old minister, who had died prior to this meeting in heaven, and a email reply to a question I asked him:



Mark Copfer (8 Nov 2008)
"This is a must read NOW! EXCITING"
[link to www.fivedoves.com]

-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------

Sent to me from my motherinlaw. Please read the following



Scott Walkington experienced a life after death experience. We have talked with him on several occasions and he spoke at our church. When he speaks, he is very articulate and he gives details that would be difficult to relate if this experience had not been real. Jesus gave Scott seven events that were to happen before the rapture.(1st Thes. 4:13-17; 5:1-4.)

The following is Scott's thoughts on the past election. The fulfillment of the following will be the verification of whether Scott had a dream or his life after death experience was real. Whatever happens, this is definitely a time for Christians to pray for our families and our nation.
Joyce


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Prophecy
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 00:46:57 -0600



Dear friends in Christ,

Before I start, let me make this statement ... I'm just a messenger, nothing more, nothing less.

Many of you asked in the past year or so who might be elected the next president, based on the Seven Signs that Jesus gave me in my heaven experience. And I answered that Obama's campaign seemed to match many of the issues that Jesus promised in this next candidate. I would have liked to shared this prophecy back then, but I did not want it to look like a political advertisement. So I chose to write about this AFTER the election.

I can also tell you that this presidential election based on my heaven experience is prophecy being fulfilled. We're just one more milestone closer to the rapture.

Just remember...except for local elections, last Tuesday's election was the LAST presidential election we will ever experience before the rapture. There will be no more! Isn't that exciting?

Here is what's yet to happen.

1. Coming in January (inaugeration) ... Due to a "problem", Obama will NOT be sworn in as the next president. He will never take that office. Why? I don't know. This is the missing piece to the puzzle. We must wait in anticipation to see whatever this "problem" might be.

2. Bush will be forced to extend his presidential term until this "problem" can be resolved. Remember, Jesus told me, "The president you know right now (meaning Bush) will be the last president you will know at the time of the rapture."

3. Violence will erupt within our nation due to this "problem". What might this be? Rioting? Demonstrations? Terrorism? We will wait and see.

4. Jesus told me, "Your troops will be brought home from around the world, but this does not mean peace." Then my minister, Rev. John Rice, (in heaven) said, "When this happens, stay off the airplanes, the trains and the interstate highways. If you must cross a river, use a less traveled bridge or a ferry. When driving, use as many backroads as possible." Then Jesus told me, "Your nation will need all the help it can get to defend itself."

5. World War III will erupt. All the nations will turn against this nation, blaming Bush for this "problem", but by the time the world realizes that Bush was not to blame, it will be too late.

6. Missiles will be dropped on cities on the east coast, then the west coast, making 9/11 look very minimal.

7. Then by the time we see missiles and fighter jets flying above us in all directions right here at home and you feel like it can't get any worse than this, that's when you know the rapture is about to take place.

Our nation will lose this war badly. It will be the end of the United States. At this time the one world government and the antichrist will take over.

All these things I learned from my heaven experience. Jesus also told me, "These are all in God's plan. As horrible as these events may seem, these events must happen in order for the rapture to take place. But you must fear not, for as you see these things happen, you must realize these are merely milestones as we get closer to the rapture. Just do your works as normally as you possibly can. Then when this time comes, I will call you and everyone else on My list, in the twinkle of My eye, just that fast."

Let me finish by saying, I'm just a messenger, nothing more, nothing less.

God bless,
Scott



--------
In an email to Scott, I asked:


Scott,

I got to ask, if you've got the time, are you saying Pres. Bush will be the last president and Mr. Obama will not make it to the White House?? It sure sounds like a lot has to happen within the next 50 days or so for that to be fulfilled.

Thanks,

Chuck



========================================His reply:


Chuck,

When Jesus spoke to me, he said, "The president you know right now is the last president you will know at the time of the rapture." Later when He was describing the Seventh (Last) Sign, He told me, "You may see elections and you may even know who that next president will be, but that next president will never take office. ..."

Scott


You can order his CD (for 5.00) from the following address:


Mail your request to:

Scott Walkington
RR 1
Virden IL 62690
 Quoting: seeker 501718



Sorry, that isn't how it's going to play out according to the Word of God. I'll concede, yes, Obama possibly couldn't take the office b/c of his birth certificate problems and the drama unfolding in the Supreme Court now, but Bush is not the last president before the rapture.

The Bible is extremely clear, there will be a final days outpouring of the Holy Spirit spoken of in Joel. This hasn't happened yet. The tares will be harvested FIRST before the wheat is gathered in the barn. This hasn't happened yet. Mystery Babylon has to fall. This hasn't happened yet.

And this constant talk of a one-world government isn't in the Bible at all. If you read Daniel 11, it tells a wholly different story than a one-world government. Tell me, how can there be a one-world government when the King of the South is fighting against the Antichrist's forces? In fact, it sounds like in verse 4 that this possibly could be describing the NWO's attempt at forming a one-world government, which then is "divided to the four winds of heaven." And if we read Daniel 2:43, the iron mixed with miry clay kingdom, it also talks of this kingdom being broken up. It says this kingdom will be broken in pieces, perhaps a correlation with Daniel 11:4? What is the miry clay? Real humans. What is the iron? The tares, the Nephilim, the seed of the fallen angels and human women, those same people who are part of the effort to build the NWO right now, a/k/a, TPTB.

The Bible also says that "Israel" will have a prince over it, the same prince who is spoken of in Revelation 6:2 and also Ezekiel 21:25-27. "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer." This prince is the human God has chosen to bring about the destruction of the NWO and the Nephilim, the tares, the generational Satanists. In fact, this man exists right now and is doing this very work, and has been for many years now, and soon you'll see the fruits of God's work in this man's life in bringing about the destruction of the NWO. And then everything that has been done in secret will be shouted from the rooftops.
Genesis 3:15: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." The Nephilim "seed" are TPTB.

yelk3@live.com
VAN HELSING
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Well,if I were Satan I would be a post tribulationist and give every Christian a false sense of security that he will see all the stuff go down in the Tribulation and have a lot of time to work out his salvation; as opposed to the pre-trib position which brings us ever so close to the day of judgement that we must be vigilant and laboring RIGHT NOW in His vineyard.



SCOTT- Your scenario is well within the bounds of possibility and I DO think we are this close in time to the nuclear war and the pre-trib Rapture. I will send for your cd.
Free Indeed

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afro I'll check back on page 1,998.
>>
VAN HELSING
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I'll be here.
Free Indeed

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I'll be here.
 Quoting: VAN HELSING 394628


I wrote a post to you and it's gone????

Did you read it? If not I can repost.

Going to try to find out what happened, cuz that's wierd.
>>
Free Indeed

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Just decided best to repost it best as I can remember:

Goodnight all.

No OP- You don't have a demon because you disagree with me; but because of the fundamentally dishonest approach you take to interpetation of scripture; I am willing to entertain the notion that you are deceived or oppressed by one. The doctrine twisters are called logoi, btw, by our Eastern Orthodox brothers. Yeah, you might have a few kicking around the house,or in your head. Not beyond the pale of possibility. Why ? Looking for a good deliverance minister ? I'll pray for you in this regard if you want.
 Quoting: VAN HELSING 394628



You are the only one here who makes sense. In your case, that "Scripture war" comment would not apply.

I discern your ministry and calling. Few are there such as this.
>>
VAN HELSING
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Hmm. interesting.
VN HELSING
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That's quite a compliment Free Indeed. I do not know what to say except thank you and I hope that is a rhema word because I am entering into a missionary mode to neo-pagan and Wiccan culture that will bring much spiritual warfare.Pray for me and members of my warrior cell group. God Bless.
IRME™
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11/22/2008 12:05 AM
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I'm sorry Canadian but Enoch doesn't mention what Daniel states. Enoch predicts the Temple burning and afterwards many-many-many generations will live in darkness until the end times and a rapture.


Your abomination has been set up with the Islamic mosque was built there where the Temple was, get over it, that was then - this is now.

]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

WHOA!!

I was open to what you were saying until this.

And then you lost me.

A little kindness and courtesy goes a long way when you are trying to get a message across.

Maybe next time eh
No problemo.

You are of the many that walks the path that leads to the slaughter House. There are many like you on this very Forum, it comes as no surprise because many will walk that path.


The Mosque is built where the Temple was, it was, its still there and will continue to be until the new world order arrives (Kingdom of Heaven).

Dude. Where do you get off?

LMAO. You have no clue what who why where and how I am. Not a clue.

All I am saying is be polite. False accusations, really, honestly, get you know where.

And it just takes away from the message you just gave.

Words are powerful.

Use them wisely.

FYI: I belong to no religious cult, I have read the book of enoch, and the mosque is not built on the foundations of the temple, but on the gentiles court. The abonomation will be the one world government. Created by the beast. Man.

Cheers
 Quoting: A Concerned Canadian


Indeed...The abonomation (Obamanation) will be the one world government. Created by the beast. Man.
Obama, Yet I don't believe even he knows Yet,
not until he is revived from a 3 day death scare.
rb
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i've really enjoyed this thread, despite the negativity and name-calling

thinking critically (or armchair quarterbacking! LOL) I perceive what you OP and you VH have in common: you both appear to be frozen in dogma.

both of you claim the Holy Spirit as inspiration for you interpretations. logically this means either a) one of you are are wrong or b) both of you are wrong.

from my vantage point it's best to remain openminded in case b) is correct

if you are right VH I'm doing good, I'm saved and outa here perhaps soon maybe today

if you are right OP I'm still fine -- I will suffer along with the rest of humanity if I live but perhaps I will instruct many on pretrib error

meanwhile if you're both wrong I'm doing real well -- I can keep searching the scriptures and praying for insight or the wherewithal to accept I just can't figure them out!

I remain bemusedly puzzled, but filled with peace that surpasses understanding

thanks for your insights but frankly there's been really nothing new in your arguments

now michelle -- I wish you and Wingedlion would write a book! I'd be happy to add it to my ever-increasing eschatological library!

hope I don't come off as smug or superior -- at this time I just have to humble myself before you all and God and say I don't know. that doesn't necessarily mean one of you don't -- I've been very wrong plenty in my life -- which is perhaps why I'm a bit cautious.

love peace and joy always! and God bless you all.

rb
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/22/2008 11:44 AM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
calm down VH he's admitted Rev 19 shows the marriage supper is before the physical return of Christ... please the histrionics are uncalled for although the vocabulary is impressive! LOL I still need to look up soteriology for goodness sake

peace love and joy kindness gentleness patience longsuffering

rb
 Quoting: rb 556363


Actually what I said was:

"Well, if you look at Rev 19, you see that the time of the marriage of the Lamb has come, and then it begins describing the physical second coming of Christ. That's when it takes place"

It didn't say that it happened before or after. My interepretation is that it happens at the same time.

It states that the "wife hath made herself ready" Ready for what?
Answer: The second coming of Jesus Christ which is described in verse 11.

The major point though is that I have already proven to you using scripture that the marriage is AFTER the great trib which is the purpose of this entire thread.
rb
User ID: 556742
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11/22/2008 12:05 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
wow I thought I'd ended the rapture debate there! LOL

so we meet Jesus in the middle of the air as He's coming down, do a quick ceremony, and land with Him in a matter of moments all on the same Day?

feasible but to me improbable

I do NOT see us here for the bowl judgments. the world is basically destroyed, practically everyone is killed, and the bowls are explicitly called the wrath of God

their timing and duration is not explicit however

love peace and joy

rb
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11/22/2008 12:07 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
i've really enjoyed this thread, despite the negativity and name-calling

 Quoting: rb 556483


Rb, I have too. I've tried not to resort to the name calling. It's hard when someone's beet red, spitting in your face though. I'm only here to try show others what was revealed to me.
Then you get the die-hard pre-tribbers who think they are doing God's service by trying to defend a ridculous theory that is scraped from a page here and ripped from a page there. They use big words and puff themselves up and think they are too smart for their own britches. Jesus had a word for those types of people:

Matt 11:25

...Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

James 4:6

But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

I pray that all may come to the truth. You must humble yourself and ask God for wisdom while reading his Word. He will show you if you just let him. It takes prayer study and a meek heart.

God Bless.

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