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ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!

 
VAN HELSING
User ID: 394628
United States
11/22/2008 10:00 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
What fruits of the spirit was Jesus manifesting when he literally chased the moneychangers and DROVE them from the temple. Or when he addressed the false teachers,pharisees as "A GENERATION OF VIPERS" and said they make their followers twofold more the children of hell than they are, eh ? He showed a zeal for His father's temple and truth.



I am RIGHTFULLY disgusted at your false teachings and my saeva indignatio is the only appropriate response to your twisting of the Word. You deserve everything I throw at you and then some. Now you compound your sin with this little post-trib pity party. Truly pathetic. You distort and falsify and then insist that people show patience with your falsehood. You are a CLASSIC pharisee. A reptile. But don't worry, your self-deception will find you out. It already did on this pathetic thread where you attempt to cross swords with Biblical exposition using your own inventions as your rapier. Don't blame me and project your shame on me with your insults. You are involved in a false prophecy project and I handed you your head on this thread because you do not know the scriptures and reveal that you make up your interpretation off of the top of your head. Your interpretation of 2 Thessalonians is the BEST YET from the post-tribulationist hall of shame.All post-tribulationists stumble on THAT rock of true prophecy; but you take home the teddy bear for writing the craziest interpretation of 2 Thessalonians probably in all of recorded history. Especially your use of the word "let" to try to do away with Paul's own clear teaching.What a gem of wisdom. And you don't even know enough to be ashamed of this deceitful mistranslation.



Pointing your finger at me will not hide your exegesis which is on the thread for all to see . You are on record with your fantasyland tales about what Paul and Jesus really meant. Their words are clear. it is your twisting of their words that is virtually unintelligible gibberish. They are the fruits of a reprobate spirit.
VAN HELSING
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11/22/2008 10:06 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Pardon me while I shake the dust from my feet.
czygyny

User ID: 540152
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11/22/2008 10:06 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Does this mean you will shout some of those latin exorcisms at us, now?

I notice that it didn't make Saxon777 nor HardTruth change their evil ways.
Kletos, Eklektos & Pistos
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 224676
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11/22/2008 10:15 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Come get some oil all you post tribulation conditionalists:

Pattern, not Just Prediction: Midrash Hermeneutics
[link to khouse.org]
Our Blessed Hope
[link to khouse.org]
The Wedding Model
[link to khouse.org]
The Harpazo
[link to khouse.org]
Why the Rapture before the Tribulation
[link to pawcreek.org]
The Great Battle For The Rapture
[link to pawcreek.org]
Rapture before Tribulation
[link to geocities.com]
50 Evidencces for Pre-Trib Rapture
[link to linkjesus.com]
The Pretribulation Rapture
[link to raptureready.com]
Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement
[link to according2prophecy.org]
Evidence of Pre-Tribulation Rapture
[link to utmost-way.com]
The Rapture
[link to godonthe.net]
The Pretribulation Rapture of the Church
A Biblical Rebuttal of the Book Entitled
"The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church" by Marvin Rosenthal

[link to biblebelievers.com]
Rapture: The 7000-year time line
[link to geocities.com]
The Pre Tribulation Rapture
[link to wayoflife.org]
16 Proofs of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture
[link to rapturealert.com]

Moses gets moabitess wife in Moab before the Exodus

Psalms 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
Psalms 27:6 And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD.

Psalms 31:19 Oh how great is thy goodness, which thou hast laid up for them that fear thee; which thou hast wrought for them that trust in thee before the sons of men!
Psalms 31:20 Thou shalt hide them in the secret of thy presence from the pride of man: thou shalt keep them secretly in a pavilion from the strife of tongues.

Psalms 94:12 Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;
Psalms 94:13 That thou mayest give him rest from the days of adversity, until the pit be digged for the wicked.

Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isaiah 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Isaiah 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
Isaiah 57:2 He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness.

Zephaniah 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape
all these things that shall come to pass
, and to stand before the Son of man.
[Note: ALL these things]

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
[7 days in a secret place she makes herself ready]

At the Second Coming the Bride is now a wife and the honeymoon has ended.

"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made
herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen
is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage
supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God." Rev 19:7-9

The Jewish Marriage Supper always begins AFTER the couple have had sex and the now wife puts on clean linen
and jewels to present herself to the friends of the groom. They get to see her for the very first time.
The friends have been gathered from all over to meet the new wife. Then after a "7" day honeymoon she comes
out of her chamber to be seen by all in all her beauty.

"Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck
the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet." Joel 2:16

The word for closet here is Chuppah meaning wedding canopy. The couple marry under this canopy long before
the honeymoon and the appearance and the start of the marriage feast. According to the customs of the
Jewish marriage feast, there is not even a hint of a post-trib Rapture. When Christ Returns with His now wife
at the Second Coming. The tribulation elect, (friends of the groom) will have already been gathered together for the feast.

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect
from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Matt 24:30-31

When the elect (the friends) are gathered (in the land of Israel), then they will meet the wife (bride of Christ)
for the first time. She (the Church) will have made herself ready after 7 days/years.


Types Of The Rapture

This is a list of Rapture types from the Old and New Testaments. These are "proposed" types and are only offered for your consideration.

Old Testament Types
1. Gen. 1:26 God created man (manchild) in the sixth day (sixth 1000-year period).
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish
of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
2. Gen. 2:7-8 God formed man (manchild) on the sixth day (sixth 1000-year period) and put him into a garden paradise (heaven).
Genesis 2:7-8 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul. And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
3. Gen. 2:22. The LORD brought the woman to the man.
Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
4. Gen. 5:23-24. Enoch (manchild) was raptured, but other righteous men remained on earth (Heb.11:5-6). The "365" shows that the antitype would occur in the last days, not during the Old Testament, when they had 360-day years.
Genesis 5:23-24 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
5. Gen. 5:25-26. Methuselah died and missed the flood, typifying the dead in Christ who miss the tribulation.
Genesis 5:25-26 And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech: And Methuselah lived
after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:
6. Gen. 6:9; 7:1,23. Noah, a perfect man who typifies the perfect manchild of Ephesians 4:13, was saved from death, but all other righteous people besides his family died in the flood (Matt. 24:37-41; 1 Pet. 3:20).
Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Genesis 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things,
and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto
the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Matthew 24:37-41 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before
the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until
the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall
be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
7. Gen. 7:9-10. Noah was taken into the ark seven days before judgment fell on the world (pretribulation Rapture is seven years before the Second Coming).
Genesis 7:9-10 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
8. Gen. 12:1-3. God called Abraham to leave worldly Ur and his family who would not walk with God, and God promised
to make of Abraham a great nation and take him to the promised land (Isa. 66:8).
Genesis 12:1-3 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house,
unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt
be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
9. Gen. 14:12-16. Abraham rescued Lot and his people from the evil kings (the Antichrist and the ten kings of Rev. 17:11-12).
10. Gen. 18:19. Abraham had advance revelation about the destruction of Sodom and escaped it.
11. Gen. 19:14. Lot (manchild) warned his loved ones before the angels took him out of Sodom. Those who rejected his message did not escape with him, but remained behind and died.
12. Gen. 19:17-22, 29. God delivered Lot out of Sodom and Gomorrah before judgment fell from heaven (Luke 17:29-30).
13. Gen. 21:6; 22:11-14. Sarah (the church) in her old age (sixth church age) rejoiced when the promised male son (manchild) was born; Isaac's life was spared when an angel spoke from heaven (John 16:21; 1 Th. 4:16).
14. Gen. 24:55. Rachel's mother and brother (the church) tried to persuade Rachel (the bride) to stay for ten days (the tribulation, Rev. 2:10) and then go to the new land afterward (posttribulation Rapture).
15. Gen. 24:61-64. Rebekah came out of the land of Mesopotamia to become Isaac's bride.
16. Gen. 25:8. Abraham died and was gathered unto his people. Those who die in Christ will be gathered together with the living at the Rapture (1 Th. 4:16-17; 2 Th. 2:1).
17. Gen. 26:16-17. Isaac (manchild) became wealthy and powerful and departed from the land of Abimelech (Satan), because Abimelech did not want him there.
18. Gen. 29:27-30. Jacob (Christ) took Rachel as his bride before a seven-year period (the tribulation).
19. Gen. 35:1. Jacob (manchild) arose and went up to Bethel at the call of God.
20. Gen. 35:3. Jacob (manchild) called upon God and escaped death from Esau's vengeance.
21. Gen. 35:16-19. Rachel (the church) had hard labor and gave birth to Benjamin (manchild), after which she soon died.
22. Gen. 37:4. Jacob loved Joseph (manchild) more than all his brothers, and his brothers hated Joseph, but God exalted him and they were ashamed (Isa. 66:5).
23. Gen. 39:1. Joseph (manchild) escaped famine by being carried away.
24. Gen. 41:14,40-41. Joseph (manchild) was delivered hastily out of the dungeon to rule and reign at the king's right hand (Gen. 40:14).
25. Gen. 41:45. Joseph (Christ) was given a Gentile bride, who goes to his chambers before he reveals himself to his brothers (Israelites who recognize and accept Christ at the Second Coming).
26. Gen. 41:52. Joseph (manchild) was in the land of plenty for seven years while famine ravaged the earth.
27. Gen. 42:1-6. Joseph (manchild) was taken out of prison and reigned from the throne while his brothers were subjected to famine.
28. Gen. 45:3-5. When Joseph (Christ) revealed himself to his brothers (saints at the Rapture), they came to him and Joseph said God sent him ahead so he could preserve his brothers' lives.
29. Gen. 45:16-46:29. Joseph (Christ) sent wagons to bring all the children of Israel to preserve them until the famine (Tribulation) was over so that they could eventually return to Canaan to possess it (Second Coming).
30. Gen. 50:5,13. Jacob's sons took his dead body (the dead in Christ) out of Egypt and buried it in Canaan.
31. Exo. 1:7-11. After Joseph disappeared from the picture in Egypt (his absence represents the Rapture), the new world government persecutes his brothers (Tribulation saints).
32. Exo. 2:2-3,10. The male child Moses (manchild) was saved from death by being hidden in an ark and drawn out of water (peoples), but other Hebrew baby boys were slain.
33. Exo. 2:15. Moses (manchild) escaped from Egypt and Pharaoh, who sought to slay him (Heb. 11:27).
34. Exo. 6:7-8. God promised Israel a departure from Egypt to be His people in a new land.
35. Exo. 8:22; 9:4,26. The Israelites (manchild) were spared when God poured out plagues upon the world government of Egypt.
36. Exo. 12:12-13. The Israelites who believed did not suffer death but overcame by the blood of the lamb (Rev. 12:5,11).
37. Exo. 12:29-31. Israel left Egypt after the firstborn of all the nation died (the Rapture follows the wound to the beast, Rev. 13:3).
38. Exo. 12:40-41. Israel (manchild) left the land of Egypt at the exodus (Exo. 3:7-10; 6:6-8).
39. Exo. 13:19. Joseph's bones (the dead in Christ) were carried out of Egypt together with the living at the exodus (Gen. 50:24-26; Josh. 24:32; Heb. 11:22).
40. Exo. 14:29-30. Israel walked through the Red Sea on dry ground and escaped death at the hands of the Egyptian army.
41. Exo. 15:16-17. Moses sang that God would make Israel (manchild) pass over into Canaan and be brought into His sanctuary (heaven).
42. Exo. 19:2-3,20. Moses (manchild) went up Mount Sinai to be with God, but the other Israelites (Tribulation saints) stayed in the wilderness (Rev. 12:5-6).
43. Exo. 19:16-17. At the blowing of the trumpet, Moses (Christ) brought forth the people (manchild) out of the camp to meet with God.
44. Exo. 23:12. After escaping death at the exodus, Israel received the promise of the sabbath rest.
45. Exo. 24:12; 32:15. Moses (manchild) went up to the mountain of God (Rapture), was absent for a season, and then returned (Second Coming) to rule over Israel with the Word of God.
46. Exo. 24:18. Moses (manchild) was taken up to the mount with God, but the other Israelites were tested during his absence.
47. Exo. 33:12-34:5. Moses (manchild) desired to see God's glory, and he went up to the mount and met God in the cleft of the rock.
48. Lev. 12:2. After the woman bears the manchild, she becomes unclean for seven days. Remaining in her blood represents martyrdom during the seven-year tribulation.
49. Lev. 12:3. A man child (manchild) must be circumcised (flesh cut away) on the eighth day (new beginnings).
50. Lev. 16:2. Aaron, the high priest, entered the Holy of holies, while the rest of the priests and Israel were in the wilderness.
51. Lev. 25:8-13. The year of jubilee represents the Rapture because during that year the Israelites rested and returned every man to his possession.
52. Num. 10:2,10. The Israelites blew trumpets to call the assembly and signal the journeying of camps (1 Th. 4:16).
53. Num. 14:22-24; 26:64. Joshua and Caleb (manchild) made it into Canaan alive, but all who refused to believe died.
54. Num. 32:1-5. The tribes of Reuben and Gad (Tribulation saints) did not cross Jordan with the rest of Israel (manchild) to enter the Promised Land.
55. Num. 35:9-12. The manslayer (manchild) could escape the avenger (the devil) and flee to a city of refuge (heaven).
56. Deut. 34:1-7. Moses was strong and had excellent vision at his death. Only those who are strong in the faith and have spiritual vision when they die will be resurrected at the Rapture to appear with Christ.
57. Josh. 2:21-24. The two men who spied out Jericho were hidden and escaped shortly before Jericho was destroyed. Their adversaries "found them not" (Gen. 5:24).
58. Josh. 3:1-4:18. Joshua (Jesus) led Israel (manchild) over Jordan to the Promised Land (heaven). The Israelites entered the Promised Land without being touched by the waters of Jordan (death), and then the waters returned and all those entering the Promised Land after them would have to ford the river.
59. Josh. 3:3-4, 14-17. The ark of the covenant (Christ) crossed Jordan about 2000 cubits (2000 years) ahead of the Israelites (manchild), who crossed the river on dry ground.
60. Josh. 6:22-25. Rahab (Bride) kept the word given to her by God's messengers and escaped to be with Joshua (Jesus) before Jericho suffered judgment.
61. Jdg. 3:15-26. Ehud (manchild) escaped out of Moab after slaying the king (beast) with a sword (Rev. 13:3).
62. Jdg. 6:34. At the sound of the trumpet, Abiezer and other men were gathered unto Gideon (Christ).
63. Jdg. 7:2-8. Following the Lord's directions, Gideon (Christ) chose 300 men (manchild), who later came with Gideon to deliver Israel from the Midianites (armies of the beast at the Second Coming).
64. Jdg. 9:5. By hiding himself, Jotham (manchild) escaped death at the hands of Abimelech (Antichrist), who slew many of his brethren.
65. Jdg. 16:30-31. Samson (manchild) delivered a death blow to the Philistines, loved not his life unto the death, and was taken up to the resting place of his father (Rev. 12:11).
66. Jdg. 21:19-23. The men of Benjamin (the Lord and His angels) will catch a wife of the daughters of Shiloh who dance.
67. Ruth 4:13. Boaz (Christ) took Ruth (Bride) to be his wife.
68. 1 Sam. 1:11,20-28. The barren Hannah (church) travailed to bring forth Samuel (manchild), who was then taken to the house of the Lord.
69. 1 Sam. 4:19-22. Eli's daughter-in-law (visible church) lamented that the ark of God (manchild) was taken, and she dies shortly afterward (Great Tribulation).
70. 1 Sam. 6:13. Those reaping the wheat harvest looked up and rejoiced to see the ark (Christ) coming.
71. 1 Sam. 19:10-12. David (manchild) escaped from Saul who sought to kill him, and David was later exalted to rule over Israel.
72. 1 Sam. 22:11-23. Abiathar the priest (manchild) escaped death and fled to David (Christ). Saul (Antichrist) slew the rest of the priests.
73. 1 Sam. 25:36-42. Abigail served Nabal (means "wicked" and represents the world), then Nabal died. David (Christ) communed with Abigail (Bride) and sent servants to get her. She went with them and became David's wife.
74. 1 Sam. 30:11-20. A servant of the Amalekites joined David (Christ) and escaped death. David later went down to the Amalekite camp (Second Coming) and smote them while they were eating and drinking (Mtt. 24:38).
75. 1 Sam. 30:18. David left his throne and rescued those whom he loved (David's two wives represent Old Testament and New Testament members of the Bride).
76. 2 Sam. 21:1-9. David (Christ) saved Mephibosheth (manchild) from death.
77. 2 Sam. 22:49. God saved David (manchild) from his enemies. He was lifted up high above them and was delivered from the violent man (Antichrist).
78. 2 Sam. 23:1. David (manchild) was raised up on high (Rapture).
79. 2 Sam. 29:1-11. David (manchild) did not participate when the enemies of God made war against the saints.
80. 2 Sam. 5:5-7. David (Christ) took the city of Zion (raptured saints) unto himself for his possession, and he ruled over it as his kingdom (Rev. 12:10).
81. 1 Ki. 2:19-24. Solomon (Christ) saved Abishag (Bride) from Adonijah (Antichrist) by having him slain with a sword.
82. 1 Ki. 10:1-13. The Queen of Sheba (Bride) went to Solomon (Christ) and was given her heart's desire.
83. 1 Ki. 12:32. Idolatrous Jeroboam changed the Feast of Tabernacles from the seventh month to the eighth month (representing posttribulationists who push off the Rapture ingathering by saying it occurs later than it actually does).
84. 1 Ki. 13:24. The young prophet missed going up to Jerusalem (Rapture) and was killed by a lion (Antichrist government in the tribulation, Rev. 13:2), because he did not obey God's Word.
85. 1 Ki. 17:3-5. Elijah (manchild) was hidden during the drought, being cared for by God.
86. 1 Ki. 18:4,12-13; 19:18. The prophets (manchild) were hidden in caves (raptured) while Jezebel persecuted God's people.
87. 1 Ki. 19:1-3. Ahab (Antichrist) and Jezebel (harlot church) sought Elijah's life (manchild), but Elijah escaped and went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
88. 2 Ki. 2:11. Elijah (manchild) was raptured, but other righteous men (Tribulation saints) were not.
89. 2 Ki. 2:14. Elisha (manchild) passed through the Jordan (death) without being touched by it.
90. 2 Ki. 2:23-25. Elisha (manchild) was mocked by young men (the unsaved). Elisha went to Mount Carmel (heaven), and the mockers were slain by Divine judgment.
91. 2 Ki. 8:1-6. The Shunammite woman (church) was protected during the seven-year famine (the Tribulation) and afterward experienced complete restoration.
92. 2 Ki. 11:1-21. Joash (manchild) was hidden in the bedchamber (heaven) for six years and saved from the massacre of the royal seed. He was brought forth in the seventh year (end of Tribulation) and began his reign.
93. 2 Ki. 19:31. Isaiah prophesied that a remnant (manchild) would escape out of Mount Zion (not all righteous are taken in the Rapture).
94. 2 Ki. 22:16-20. God promised righteous King Josiah (manchild) that he would not see the day of destruction that was coming upon his people.
95. 1 Chr. 4:9-10. Jabez (manchild), whose mother (visible church) bore him in sorrow, was more honorable than his brothers and was granted his request to be kept from evil.
96. 2 Chr. 9:1-12. The queen of Sheba (Bride) heard of Solomon's (Christ's) fame, came to him with a very great company (Rapture), and discovered that half of his glory had never been told.
97. 2 Chr. 15:9-10. Asa (Christ) gathered Judah, Benjamin, and others (Raptured saints) to Jerusalem (heaven).
98. 2 Chr. 20:1-30. Judah united, triumphed over the enemy, and went to the Temple to experience rest and the presence of God.
99. 2 Chr. 22:10-23:1. Joash (manchild) was hidden and saved from certain death when Athaliah destroyed all his brothers (Tribulation saints). Seven years later he ruled (Millennium).
100. 2 Chr. 30:1-12. The righteous among the tribes of northern Israel fled to Judah and escaped the Assyrian captivity (2 Chr. 15:8,10). Members of visible church join the manchild and escape death.
101. Ezra 1:3. Under King Cyrus many Jews left Babylon (end-time world system) and entered Canaan (partial Rapture), but others stayed (Tribulation).
102. Esth. 2:5-9. Esther (Bride) was brought to the king's house (Rapture), being loved more than all the other women (1:19).
103. Ezra 7:6-8. Ezra and some Israelites (manchild) left Babylon (end-time world system) and went up to Jerusalem (partial Rapture), but others stayed in Babylon.
104. Esth. 9:1. The righteousness of Mordecai (manchild) and the goodness and beauty of Esther (Bride) saved both from death and the wrath of the king.
105. Esth. 10:2. After escaping death, Mordecai (manchild) assumes a position of rulership.
106. Job 14:12-14. Job (manchild) prayed to be hidden until God's wrath was past, and said he was waiting for the day God changed him.
107. Job 19:25-27. Job (manchild) knows that he will see his Redeemer (Christ).
108. Job 29:17. Job (manchild) broke the jaws of the wicked (Antichrist) and plucked the spoil out of his teeth.
109. Psa. 12:5. The LORD will arise and set His people in safety from him that would ensnare them.
110. Psa. 17:8-15. God will hide the man after His own heart from the wicked (Antichrist, 2 Th. 2:8), delivering his soul, and he shall awake with God's likeness.
111. Psa. 18:16-19. David (manchild) was drawn out of many waters (people), delivered from his strong enemy (devil), and brought forth into a large place (heaven).
112. Psa. 27:5. David (manchild) prays to be hidden from the time of trouble.
113. Psa. 27:10. The LORD will take up saints (manchild) who are forsaken by their parents (churches who cast out manchild, Isa. 66:5).
114. Psa. 31:7-8,20. David (manchild) prayed to not be left to the hand of his enemies, but to be put in a large room, hidden from the pride and strife that was to come upon the world.
115. Psa. 45:14-17. The king's daughter (Bride) is brought into the palace, where she is adorned with fine apparel.
116. Psa. 50:5. God's people shall be gathered unto Him at the time of His coming.
117. Psa. 55:6-9. The psalmist (manchild) longs to have wings like a dove to fly away and be at rest.
118. Psa. 68:11-20. David speaks of Christ's ascension and attributes "escapes from death" (v. 20, NASB) to God.
119. Psa. 74:19. The soul of the turtledove (Bride) will not be delivered unto the wicked (Song Sol. 2:12).
120. Psa. 91:1-16. God will deliver the psalmist (manchild) from the snare of the fowler (the devil), pestilence, and destruction (plagues of the Tribulation).
121. Psa. 116:7-8. The Lord delivered the psalmist's (manchild) soul from death (dead in Christ resurrect at the Rapture).
122. Psa. 119:62. At midnight (the dark hour when the Rapture occurs) the psalmist (manchild) will rise to give thanks to God.
123. Psa. 124:7. The psalmist said that our soul is escaped as a bird (manchild) out of the snare of the fowlers (Antichrist and false prophet).
124. Psa. 144:7-10. David (manchild) prayed to be delivered from the waters of the coming flood (Rev. 12:15).
125. Pro. 11:8. After the righteous (manchild) are delivered, the wicked one (Antichrist) comes to earth in their stead.
126. Ecc. 7:26. The man (manchild) who pleases God (Heb. 11:5) will escape from the woman (harlot church) whose heart is snares and nets.
127. Song Sol. 2:10-14. Solomon came to take away the Shulamite after the rain had fallen and when the fig tree was budding.
128. Song Sol. 6:10-13. The Shulamite (Bride) was caught away while the virgins beheld her and were left behind.
129. Isa. 25:8-9. The Lord will swallow up death in victory (at the Rapture).
130. Isa. 26:19-21. The woman (Bride) has not brought forth her child (manchild), but God promises that the dead will be raised and He will hide His people from the brief period of indignation.
131. Isa. 27:13. The trumpet will be blown and many will be gathered to Jerusalem.
132. Isa. 38:1-22. Hezekiah (manchild) was sick unto death, but God delivered him from death and from invading Assyrians (Antichrist forces).
133. Isa. 40:31. They that wait upon the Lord shall mount up with wings as eagles (be Raptured).
134. Isa. 49:9-10. The prisoners will go forth and find pastures in all high places (heaven), and neither the sun nor the heat (Great Tribulation) will smite them.
135. Isa. 49:24-25. The Lord promises to take away the prey (manchild) from the mighty (world government).
136. Isa. 52:1-3. Zion will awake and then arise from the dust of this earth to sit in the heavenlies, being redeemed without money.
137. Isa. 52:12. God will be our rear guard, which literally means He will gather us up (Hebrew).
138. Isa. 60:8-9,22. God identifies certain ones who fly as clouds and doves.
139. Isa. 66:5-9. The Lord will appear to the joy of some, but those who hate their brethren (opposite of Philadelphia) will be ashamed.
140. Jer. 3:14. God says that He will take one of a city and two of a family and bring them to Zion (heaven).
141. Jer. 36:26. The king (Antichrist) commanded his men to take Jeremiah and Baruch (manchild), but the Lord hid them (Rapture).
142. Jer. 38:7-13. Jeremiah (manchild) was lifted up out of the miry dungeon.
143. Jer. 39:16-18. The Lord promises to deliver Ebed-melech (manchild) on the eve of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians.
144. Jer. 42:11. Do not fear the king of Babylon (Antichrist), for God will deliver His people from him.
145. Jer. 43:6-7. Jeremiah (manchild) escaped the Babylonian captivity (tribulation) by being taken out of Jerusalem with a company of saints.
146. Jer. 46:19. God spoke to His people Egypt as a daughter and told them to furnish themselves "to be transported" (Hebrew).
147. Eze. 1:4-25; 10:19. The cherubim mount up from the earth and are taken out.
148. Eze. 3:11-14. The Spirit took up Ezekiel (manchild) while the rest of the Israelites remained in captivity.
149. Eze. 8:3-4. The Lord lifted up Ezekiel (manchild) between earth and heaven and brought him in the visions of God to Jerusalem (heaven).
150. Eze. 9:4-6. Those who were concerned over sin were marked and spared from death, but the rest of the saints were killed.
151. Eze. 12:3. God told Ezekiel to prepare himself to be removed to another place.
152. Eze. 33:21. The Babylonians surrounded Jerusalem to destroy it (2 Ki. 25:4), but a man (manchild) escaped.
153. Eze. 36:23-29. Israel (manchild) will be gathered out of all nations into Canaan (heaven) to fulfill God's promise unto them.
154. Eze. 37:1-14. The dry bones (saints) are connected, unite as a great army, and are brought into the Promised Land.
155. Dan. 3:14-20. The Jews refused to bow to the world system of Babylon. Daniel (manchild) escaped the burning fiery furnace while Hananiah, Azariah, and Mishael (Tribulation saints) went trough it.
156. Dan. 5:30-6:3. Daniel (manchild) escaped the war that overthrew the ruler of Babylon, and the king of the new monarchy exalted him.
157. Dan. 6:16-28. God delivered Daniel (manchild) out of the lion's den (Rev.13:2) because he believed (v. 23).
158. Hos. 11:1. God called His son (manchild) out of Egypt (the world).
159. Hos. 13:14. God promises to deliver His people out of the grave and to give them power over death.
160. Joel 2:15-16. The children, people, and elders of Israel (manchild) are all gathered at the sound of the trumpet.
161. Joel 2:32. Those who call on the name of the Lord will be delivered (raptured) "for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape" (NASB).
162. Amos 3:11-12. As the shepherd rescues his sheep from the mouth of the lion (Rev. 13:2), so shall Israel (manchild) be rescued.
163. Amos 4:11. Israel (manchild) was like a firebrand plucked out of the burning (Tribulation).
164. Oba. 17. In Mount Zion there shall be those who escape the wrath of God upon the world (1 Th. 5:9).
165. Jon. 2:5-10. Jonah (manchild) was delivered out of sure death in stormy seas by being carried to safety and put on dry land.
166. Mic. 5:3. God will give up Israel until the time that she (visible church) who travails has brought forth (the manchild).
167. Mic. 7:1-2. Micah (Tribulation saints) lamented that the harvest was over, that the good man (manchild) was gone, and that there was none upright among men.
168. Zep. 2:1-3. God exhorts His people to seek righteousness before the Day of the LORD so that they may be hidden in that day (escape it by the Rapture).
169. Hag. 2:23. The Lord said he would take (rapture) his servant Zerubbabel (manchild).
170. Mal. 3:1. The LORD whom you seek shall suddenly come to His Temple (the church).


This is my last post in this thread, take it or leave it.
Goes for OP, Monk and Michelle. I have no time to play with you people any more, stay post trib if you like doesn't matter to me.
Michelle

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11/22/2008 10:21 PM
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Come get some oil all you post tribulation conditionalists:



This is my last post in this thread, take it or leave it.
Goes for OP, Monk and Michelle. I have no time to play with you people any more, stay post trib if you like doesn't matter to me.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 224676


I'm actually prewrath belief, the rapture before the wrath of God is poured out on the world, after the opening of the 6th seal.
Genesis 3:15: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." The Nephilim "seed" are TPTB.

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czygyny

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11/22/2008 10:25 PM
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Come get some oil all you post tribulation conditionalists:


This is my last post in this thread, take it or leave it.
Goes for OP, Monk and Michelle. I have no time to play with you people any more, stay post trib if you like doesn't matter to me.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 224676


Ah, but the Monk never said she held to a post-trib rapture, now did she?

My issue ALONE was the arrogant attitude by VH, who does this sort of venomous attack to anyone who disagrees with him. If you haven't caught the ring-side show before, do an advanced search.

I am pre-Wrath, which to me is different than pre-trib.

Actually you have given a wonderful wealth of information from old and new testament sources for your stance, I commend you!
Kletos, Eklektos & Pistos
Michelle

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11/22/2008 10:29 PM
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AC 224276, you never answered the astrology question. I suppose that means you condone astrology, which is witchcraft. Pretty sad day when two women are the only ones "man" enough to stand up and say what's right and what's wrong. Kinda reminds me of the days of Deborah. Where are the men?!
Genesis 3:15: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." The Nephilim "seed" are TPTB.

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Wil
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11/23/2008 02:05 AM
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Point blank: Be ready for the rapture of the church, and imminent death. There are reasons why the LORD has blessed those watchers with dreams and visions of the end days. Perhaps it is to alert those who are on the edge of repentance, or maybe it literally means we need to be prepared ourselves for the worst EVER. Either way, we will need to be strong in our faith before it comes.

Trust me, even though most of us, GLPers, Watchers are unplugged to the vast brainwashing that has taken place over the years, it will be excruciating for our flesh to endure simply though the first judgements. We are going to have to heavily rely upon the LORD for strength and go to no-one but Him. I will have to also suggest that believers find a refuge for support, otherwise I can't see the majority of us lasting through Armageddon.

There is going to have to be supernatural protection, and that can only come through our devout steadfastness through the hardships.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 472846


Yes, Jesus told us God will provide protection for the true believers or the elect... those who obey the 10 Commandments. In my view, it is very likely the traditional Christian churches who break the Law, particularly the 4th Commandment, on keeping holy the Sabbath Day and the 7 Feasts of the Lord, are blinded by the Deception sent by God. The deception is the pretrib rapture!

I believe before the 6th seal is opened, God will send a Prophet to lead the elect out to a place of safety (Malachi 4:5). Those who are not ready and watching, like the foolish virgins, will not heed the call and go through the Great Trib. The GT applies only to Christians who refused to take the Mark of the Beast/AC.
Wil
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11/23/2008 02:41 AM
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Come get some oil all you post tribulation conditionalists:



This is my last post in this thread, take it or leave it.
Goes for OP, Monk and Michelle. I have no time to play with you people any more, stay post trib if you like doesn't matter to me.


I'm actually prewrath belief, the rapture before the wrath of God is poured out on the world, after the opening of the 6th seal.
 Quoting: Michelle


Actually "prewrath" is the same as post-trib.

The opening of the 6th seal starts a series of global cataclysm brought about by the passage of the Star Wormwood (a brown dwarf a.k.a. PlanetX or Nibiru) around the sun. This is a natural disaster... NOT God's wrath. With the destruction of all infrastructures and disappearance of all govts, there will be chaos and famines around the world. The 10 kings (whoever they are) will request the Antichrist to take absolute power and restore order. He will decree the Mark on the forehead or right hand on every person to do any transaction, since all currencies have collapsed.

3.5 years before the Day of the Lord, the AC will desecrate the Temple and declares himself God to be worshiped... that is the start of the Great Trib. This is the time of Satan's wrath as those who refused the mark will be beheaded.

At the end of the 3.5 yrs of GT, is the gathering of the saints... the resurrection of those who died in Christ and rapture of the elect who are still alive. Immediately the 7 bowls of God's wrath are poured out in rapid succession in 10 days from the rapture to the return of Christ!
Mike ArchAngel
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11/23/2008 06:25 AM
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Pls note that:

Great Tribulation for world is 7years
Great Tribulation for Israel is 3.5yrs (shortened)

Matthew:24:22: "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
The Elect here mean the 144thousand Israelites and Tribulational saints who did not receive the mark of beast

There are 2 different periods or portions or parts for the term "Great Tribulation"

Matthew:24:21: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
the earlier verses read like this...M't:24:19: "And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!" ...China's tainted milk problem marks those days???
M't:24:20: But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
this year 2008 winter and sabbath(friday night) would be the start of Great Tribulation?

Matthew:24:29: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"
these signs(maybe solar&lunar eclipses) must happen after those days (7year) later

Mark:13:24: "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,"
these signs(maybe solar&lunar eclipses) must happen after those days (7year) later

Revelations:2:22: "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds."
Christ here mentioned He would punish the BAD Church (bride) with Great Tribulation

Revelations:7:14: "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
One of The 24 Raptured Elder (possible Apostle or TribeChief) mentioned Raptured Saints came out of Great Trib

Russia and allies {Iran(Persia), Ethiopia, Libya, Turkey and former USSR states(Gomer, Togarmah)}would attacked Israel and they would be destroyed and weapons burnt 7 years.
Eze:39:9: And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

The heathen would know God is in Israel...this proves this event is pre-millenium...the post millenium God&Mqagog is possible history repeating itself.

Eze:39:7: So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Israel would be saved only by God as the whole world would not rescue and would just talk only like the recent "Georgian War" tested by Russia.

Israel escaped Great Tribulation for 3.5years here to build the Temple to Glorify God as all the walls in Israel would collapse and may include the Temple of Dome.
There would be 7months of burying the Russian dead bodies and then shall they have 2300days where Israel's army would be given up so that they can build the temple. the days of their santuary trodden under foot is 2300days. They would be peaceful until the beast sits in the temple...Israel shall flee 1260days. so Great Trib for Israel 1260days.

Daniel:8:14: And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

---------------------------------------------------------
Below are Bible passages of a second type of tribulation. Tribulation or Persecution of the saints. These are the period suffered by believers before great tribulations.
Pls do not be confused with the Great Tribulation.

M't:13:21: Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Christ means believers shall suffer common tribulations and He meant persecution...he did not mean only the believers of the Endtime great tribulation

Joh:16:33: These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Christ means believers shall suffer common tribulations...he did not mean only the believers of the Endtime great tribulation

Ac:14:22: Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Paul means believers must suffer much tribulations...he did not mean the great tribulation

Ro:2:9: Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Paul means anguish as common tribulations

Ro:5:3: And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Paul means sufferings as common tribulations

Ro:8:35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Paul means sufferings as common tribulations

Ro:12:12: Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
Paul means sufferings as common tribulations

2Co:1:4: Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
Paul means all sufferings as all common tribulations

2Co:7:4: Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.
Paul means his sufferings as tribulations here

Eph:3:13: Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
Paul means his sufferings as tribulations here

1Th:3:4: For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
Paul means his sufferings as tribulations here

2Th:1:4: So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
Paul means our persecutions also as tribulations

2Th:1:6: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
Paul may mean God would punish those who trouble us with great tribulation

Re:1:9: I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
John means his sufferings also as tribulations

Re:2:9: I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Christ means our trials as tribulations

Re:2:10: Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Christ means our tribulation period is short may even be exact days and not years
Michelle

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11/23/2008 08:01 AM
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Come get some oil all you post tribulation conditionalists:



This is my last post in this thread, take it or leave it.
Goes for OP, Monk and Michelle. I have no time to play with you people any more, stay post trib if you like doesn't matter to me.


I'm actually prewrath belief, the rapture before the wrath of God is poured out on the world, after the opening of the 6th seal.


Actually "prewrath" is the same as post-trib.

The opening of the 6th seal starts a series of global cataclysm brought about by the passage of the Star Wormwood (a brown dwarf a.k.a. PlanetX or Nibiru) around the sun. This is a natural disaster... NOT God's wrath. With the destruction of all infrastructures and disappearance of all govts, there will be chaos and famines around the world. The 10 kings (whoever they are) will request the Antichrist to take absolute power and restore order. He will decree the Mark on the forehead or right hand on every person to do any transaction, since all currencies have collapsed.

3.5 years before the Day of the Lord, the AC will desecrate the Temple and declares himself God to be worshiped... that is the start of the Great Trib. This is the time of Satan's wrath as those who refused the mark will be beheaded.

At the end of the 3.5 yrs of GT, is the gathering of the saints... the resurrection of those who died in Christ and rapture of the elect who are still alive. Immediately the 7 bowls of God's wrath are poured out in rapid succession in 10 days from the rapture to the return of Christ!
 Quoting: Wil 545136


Prewrath is same as post-trib? Thanks. I didn't know that.

Do you mind me asking, what do you think about Daniel 11 and the King of the South that is fighting the Antichrist and his forces? Also the ships of Chittim that come against him? It's a little unclear to me if the King of the North is also coming against him or if, in fact, the antichrist has taken over the King of the North's position, and after he does that, when it then refers to the King of the North, it's referring to the Antichrist. But anyway, my whole point is that how can the Antichrist require the whole world to take the mark of the beast to buy or sell when, in fact, there exists this whole other kingdom that is fighting against him?
Genesis 3:15: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." The Nephilim "seed" are TPTB.

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Michelle

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11/23/2008 10:22 AM
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And let me add for AC 224676, concerning women being silent, what the Word of God says about women in the end times in Joel 2:28: And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

If you refuse to listen to what women have to say because of a commonly misunderstood verse out of the whole Bible, then you just might miss something the Lord himself wants to say to you.
Genesis 3:15: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." The Nephilim "seed" are TPTB.

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Chases Tumbleweeds

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11/23/2008 11:14 AM
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Besides you're a woman you should not be "teaching" any man anything, so before you come talking about gnashing of teeth you should perhaps look at your own conduct.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 224676

Dogma at its finest. Keep the woman shut out of everything, so man can dominate.

Gotta love those re-writes of God - obviously, by men !!!
I am NOT a human !!
Michelle

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Besides you're a woman you should not be "teaching" any man anything, so before you come talking about gnashing of teeth you should perhaps look at your own conduct.

Dogma at its finest. Keep the woman shut out of everything, so man can dominate.

Gotta love those re-writes of God - obviously, by men !!!
 Quoting: Chases Tumbleweeds


Yeah, women have it the worst of all minorities, always have. I suppose that poster would have a problem, too, if a woman was his 1st grade son's teacher and she taught her class it was wrong to murder someone. Isn't that one of God's 10 commandments? Should she keep silent on speaking out against that too and instead not be teaching boys? It's ridiculous. I'm not here trying to lead a church. That's the absolute LAST thing in the world I'd want to do. Oh the headaches! All I merely said was that the word of God forbids Christians from practicing astrology. Lord have mercy... Maybe that poster should move to Saudi Arabia.
Genesis 3:15: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." The Nephilim "seed" are TPTB.

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VAN HELSING
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11/23/2008 12:03 PM
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Doing some witch hunting Michelle ? If there is a witch on here somewhere ,that would be you I think.( Heh-don't y'all get mad at me now.) Want to do a search ? Check out Michelle's post on Obama being an agent of occult forces and standing on ley lines to enhance his power. She gets this wacky info from Matthew Deloozle and cites him as a source. He's an antichristian lunatic. Check out HIS site if you want to journey in la-la land. This is the kind of thing that passes for "research" in post-tribulational circles.


Is mundane astrology witchcraft ? Witchcraft and divination is forbidden in the Bible to pagans who used astrology to worship and commune with evil discarnates. The pagans are still at it at least in areas I evangelize. The curses on the Bible are directed very specifically against this idolatry of pagan gods( devils). But here is a question Michelle wiill never answer adequately: Is ALL ASTROLOGY forbidden by the Bible ? If by astrology we mean that the stars ARE a symbolic language and that this language can be READ as signs or omens of the future the answer is NO. Michelle pretends this distinction doesn't exist. And why am I not surprised ? Post-tribulationists pretty much believe that distinctionS in general do not exist. Witness the OP's less than stellar exegesis. But I digress.



JESUS HIMSELF cited astrological signs. In His endtime discourses he said there would be SIGNS in the SUN<MOON AND STARS. Was Jesus a witch ? I don't think so.


The MAGI,the "wise men", who are termed "astrologers in the New English Bible, found their way to Jesus using astrology.The STAR OF BETHLEHEM, in and of itself,puts the lie upon all those who wish to paint Ichabod across ALL astrology. A long line of Christian astronomers have studied and written books about that phenomenon. Beginning with Kepler and as recently as 2006, they all demonstrate that the Magi used a semantic that was native to the Middle Eastern areas,particularly in the old Persian area. In short the stars are a type of subject and their constellational setting is the predicate of whatever it is they mirror in their varying configurations. A language denoting different kings,kingdoms and even geographical areas is what the Magi used to interpret the Star of Bethlehem. Joseph Seiss, a german Lutheran clergyman wrote "The Gospel in the Stars" to demonstrate this principle.



In PSALM we read the heavens " DECLARE the GLORY of God". No witchcraft here !They 'UTTERETH SPEECH" and "SHOWETH KNOWLEDGE". Pretty neat huh ? We are told there is no place their VOICE is not heard. Astrology is a universal symbolic semantic. And here is undoubtedly what Jesus had in mind citing signs in the heaven in the ENDTIME:


" Their line is gone out through all the earth, their WORDS to the END OF THE WORLD".(Psalm 19:4)




When Daniel became HEAD of the Magi in babylon,there is no word he banned astrology. He headed up the operation and he was the greatest prophet of the Old testament,one Jesus Himself cites in the gospels. Christians throughout the Christian age have believed that there is a pure astrology completely distinct from what is cursed to the pagans in the OT. Pierre D'Ailly saw it as an adjunct to prophecy, as do I btw. Thomas Aquinas wrote of the validity of astrology within proscribed bounds in Summa Contra Gentiles and elsewhere. From that medieval period through to the time of Cromwell, astrology was seen as legitimate when there is no pagan spiritism involved.Many Anglican clergy actually had almanacs they produced. The biggest issue was free will and God's will.Thomas solved that one succinctly:

SAPIENS DOMINABITUR ASTRIS


The wise man rules the stars. He went on to posit that most are not wise and that THAT is why the fate of Nations can be "read" in the stars which mirror the broad strokes of God's Providence through time. God's judgements on the nations are deterministic but men still had free individual will,in Christ, to escape the collective.



I could go on and on,but I am on a thread where the light is,let's just call it a bit "DIM" on here. my pointn is that Michelle is being fundamentally dishonest saying i do "witchcraft". She is mad at me because here and on other threads I have made it my business to demolish the Post-Tribulationist's heresy. Notice she didn't answer or post about my many carefully wrought criticisms or textual and linguistic analyses about the Rapture in the Bible. She didn't because she knows that she cannot stand up to the truth that there IS a pre-tribulational rapture. The Bible is just TOO CLEAR on that subject. She and I have had some controversy on this before and if I were she, i wouldn't want to get into the subject with me either. But to simply catcall "witch" from the sidelines is just too pathetic and infantile to ignore.


If you want to find evidence of someone being bewitched, reread this thread and check out the gibberish the OP posts about 2 Thessalonians. Want voodoo eschatology ?Investigate post-tribulationism and what passes as Bible interpretation among them. They don't get these crazy conclusions about interpretation from putting scriptures together. I know they don't. The OP proved it when he mistook an olde English word for a proper rendering of the greek and used it in a way that was exactly backwards and opposite the meaning of the actual word. I think this ass-backwards approach is called widdershins by the wiccans ,if I am not mistaken. The devils do a lot of things backwards. I wonder-does OP have a familiar ? Heh,heh.



I shook the dust from my shoes already here...but I couldn't let this last little cheap shot go by without a response.On top of being heretical and engaging in slipshod Biblical eisegesis, these post-tribbers have some major characterological faults...honesty being at the top of the list.



I honestly do wonder...they are concerned about witches. I wonder whether THEY meet on full Moons out in the woods somewhere and do Bible study there ? Judging from what passes as Bible doctrine in this circle, they might be communing with familiar spirits to get this Post-Tribulational false doctrine. They certainly didn't get it from the Bible or the Holy Spirit.THAT is for sure.



Anyway, if anyone wants to see my post "Astrology and the Bible" and other related posts; check these out in the TOPICS area of the archives under Astrology. You won't find any pagan idolatry there; but you may be surprised what a gift astrology can be in these last days as we observe the world getting ever closer to the war prophesied by Ezekial in Ch. 38 &39 of his text and the pre-tribulation Rapture. we cannot know the day or hour,but Jesus said we would have a proximate sense that the harvest was nigh. The stars help us to see this in much the same way they helped the Magi. The stars led the first worshippers of Jesus to His first advent. It stands to reason these wondrous creations will help light the way to His Second advent as well. Jesus indicated this in his endtime discourses. There are indeed SIGNS in the SUN,MOON and STARS.
Michelle

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11/23/2008 12:29 PM
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<snip>
 Quoting: VAN HELSING 394628


My, my, what a pretty, shiny picture you do paint of what is STILL witchcraft, a device of Satan to foretell the future. But this isn't surprising, considering Satan himself appears as an angel of light.

Your astrology is nothing but a chocolate-covered turd. Sweet on the outside but putrid on the inside. And your device foretelling sure let you down, didn't it, when you predicted by astrology that McCain would win. Like Wingedlion said to you, when you use a device of Satan, you end up looking like a fool in the end.
Genesis 3:15: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." The Nephilim "seed" are TPTB.

yelk3@live.com
VAN HELSING
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11/23/2008 12:46 PM
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Well, as usual Michelle,you fail to address the scriptures and illustrations I cite and the very lucid argument I present.


Re my "record". The terrible seachange of August came true. I posted on that in the Spring. We had talk of WW3 in the air, true to what the stars heralded. And the US sent a flotilla of warships in readiness to attack Iran then too.THESE ARE signs that Ezekial's war is about to break forth and that the pre-tribulation rapture is very near.


More recently, just days after i posted about the dangers to Obama. SEVERAL sources in the media echoed what the stars heralded. i noticed you scrupulously avoid wha many on GLP have admitted as a vindication of astrology.More SELECTIVE filtering of the real world.


You cite Wingedlion. He is a lunatic. He thinks he has been appointed to battle the "Evil Queen Hepzibah" in the heavenlies. Care to elaborate on that Michelle ? Or on Obama' s ley lines ? Your sources are a bit tainted dear.


You didn't try to support your claim against astrology because you cannot. And you know, your chosen imagery in this last post is evidence that you really are quite tasteless and you think in terms unbecoming a lady. I think I noticed before. Anyway, I really don't want to waste any more cyberprint on you. Ciao.
VAN HELSING
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11/23/2008 12:51 PM
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Here are a few of the Biblical sources who vindicate the stars as a mode of God's prophetic Word:


1)JESUS



2) THE MAGI




3) THE PSALMIST




4) DANIEL



We could adduce the author of Genesis who said the stars are for SIGNS and seasons and times. And other. But the point is that the "lady", and I use the term"lady" advisedly, in the above post STILL claims the stars are nothing but witchcraft. Jesus Himself cited signs in the stars. I'm sure this is a new one on him !! Anyway, when I look at the list above,I am in pretty good company I would say.
VAN HELSING
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11/23/2008 01:01 PM
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I'm outta here. It's a nice day out. Too nice to stay inside for cyberspace pillow fights with post-tribulationists who fly around on brooms apparently.
Michelle

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11/23/2008 01:17 PM
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Well, as usual Michelle,you fail to address the scriptures and illustrations I cite and the very lucid argument I present.

 Quoting: VAN HELSING 394628

That's because it's pointless with you. You're an arrogant man with an unteachable spirit. I'm not going to waste my time.

Re my "record". The terrible seachange of August came true. I posted on that in the Spring. We had talk of WW3 in the air, true to what the stars heralded. And the US sent a flotilla of warships in readiness to attack Iran then too.THESE ARE signs that Ezekial's war is about to break forth and that the pre-tribulation rapture is very near.


More recently, just days after i posted about the dangers to Obama. SEVERAL sources in the media echoed what the stars heralded. i noticed you scrupulously avoid wha many on GLP have admitted as a vindication of astrology.More SELECTIVE filtering of the real world.

 Quoting: VAN HELSING 394628

So what, so you manage to strike a few ones right. And Satan can counterfeit some of the miracles of the Lord too. When the Lord speaks, it is 100% right.




You cite Wingedlion. He is a lunatic. He thinks he has been appointed to battle the "Evil Queen Hepzibah" in the heavenlies. Care to elaborate on that Michelle ? Or on Obama' s ley lines ? Your sources are a bit tainted dear.
 Quoting: VAN HELSING 394628

Wingedlion is not a lunatic, and I take personal affront to you saying that. He's a friend of mine, and he's closer to the Lord than you are or ever have been.

You didn't try to support your claim against astrology because you cannot. And you know, your chosen imagery in this last post is evidence that you really are quite tasteless and you think in terms unbecoming a lady. I think I noticed before. Anyway, I really don't want to waste any more cyberprint on you. Ciao.
 Quoting: VAN HELSING 394628


You know, VH, lastly, I have nothing personal against you. I think sometimes your writing is hilarious, you have me laughing hard, and I also think you have a way with words that is very unique, a true writer's gift. I just don't see that you exhibit the fruits of the Spirit. "By their fruits, you will know them." If you were off doing your astrology thing on this forum and not professing to be a Christian, I wouldn't say a word to you. But it's when you cross that line into Christianity and try to pollute the Word of God and the believers of God, that's when I step up and say something about it.
Genesis 3:15: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." The Nephilim "seed" are TPTB.

yelk3@live.com
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/23/2008 01:26 PM
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What fruits of the spirit was Jesus manifesting when he literally chased the moneychangers and DROVE them from the temple. Or when he addressed the false teachers,pharisees as "A GENERATION OF VIPERS" and said they make their followers twofold more the children of hell than they are, eh ? He showed a zeal for His father's temple and truth.



I am RIGHTFULLY disgusted at your false teachings and my saeva indignatio is the only appropriate response to your twisting of the Word. You deserve everything I throw at you and then some. Now you compound your sin with this little post-trib pity party. Truly pathetic. You distort and falsify and then insist that people show patience with your falsehood. You are a CLASSIC pharisee. A reptile. But don't worry, your self-deception will find you out. It already did on this pathetic thread where you attempt to cross swords with Biblical exposition using your own inventions as your rapier. Don't blame me and project your shame on me with your insults. You are involved in a false prophecy project and I handed you your head on this thread because you do not know the scriptures and reveal that you make up your interpretation off of the top of your head. Your interpretation of 2 Thessalonians is the BEST YET from the post-tribulationist hall of shame.All post-tribulationists stumble on THAT rock of true prophecy; but you take home the teddy bear for writing the craziest interpretation of 2 Thessalonians probably in all of recorded history. Especially your use of the word "let" to try to do away with Paul's own clear teaching.What a gem of wisdom. And you don't even know enough to be ashamed of this deceitful mistranslation.



Pointing your finger at me will not hide your exegesis which is on the thread for all to see . You are on record with your fantasyland tales about what Paul and Jesus really meant. Their words are clear. it is your twisting of their words that is virtually unintelligible gibberish. They are the fruits of a reprobate spirit.
 Quoting: VAN HELSING 394628


You think you've got me pinned because of a tiny word "let"? That's the best you can do? Whether I'm right or not about this tiny intrepretation does not nullify the fact that that chapter still teaches the gathering of the church as happening at the day of Christ.
This puts a kibosh on your tiny insignificant argument that amounts to absolutely nothing. So you can try to spin it all you want. It won't work. The bible will slap truth in your face everytime.
VAN HELSING
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11/23/2008 01:41 PM
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OP-you faker. You pinned your whole interpreation of the function of the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians on that tiny word. And you pretend you can read the scriptures in an intelligible way.


And that wasn't your only "infirmity", I posted at length about how you read Luke 17 and Jesus' utilization of Lot and Noah in a way that is the exact opposite of what Jesus intended. And I posted scriptures like Rev. 3:10 which you have no answer fpor. And luke 21:36 and many others. WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE KIDDING ?


And on and on. Your whole endtime schematic is messed up. Why am I not surprised ? Post-tribulationism is indefensible from a Biblical point of view. You have to go into the land of OZ or maybe Ozzie Osbourne to try to teach that. And that's where you're at. And you know what, I take back that reference to Ozzie. At least he doesn't twist and distort Holy Scripture under the guise of being a prophecy teacher. And he's a great singer. he's more likely to have a real conversion to Christ than you are at this point, OP.



Anyway, now you are trying to say I base my opposition to your false teaching on one word. i cited at least half a dozen or more different areas of scripture wherein your view is flatlt contradicted. AND YOU KNOW IT. Being dishonest is second nature to you OP. I have no respect for you at all at this point. You are a pretense .
Chases Tumbleweeds

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11/23/2008 01:42 PM
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You're an arrogant man
 Quoting: Michelle

Hmmm, that - of VH - sure does sound familiar!!

Do you all do this in church too? Endless arguing?

Sure seems like a lot of wasted engery, for what ....... nothing.
I am NOT a human !!
VAN HELSING
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11/23/2008 01:50 PM
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Your characterization of a desire to get a clear picture of what the Bible says about the endtime in which we are livingas "nothing"speaks volumes of where you're at Tumblewood. I, for one, wouldn't want to be there. Not at this late hour.
Chases Tumbleweeds

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11/23/2008 02:04 PM
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Your characterization of a desire to get a clear picture of what the Bible says about the endtime in which we are livingas "nothing"speaks volumes of where you're at Tumblewood. I, for one, wouldn't want to be there. Not at this late hour.
 Quoting: VAN HELSING 394628

You don't have the capacity to be where I am, you are too close-minded and dogmatic.

And by the way, your renaming of my nik was quite juvenile.
I am NOT a human !!
VAN HELSING
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11/23/2008 02:07 PM
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You know, I really do have to go. And to PROVE there is no hard feelings I want to promise you that I am going to be nicer in the future, yes even to a bunch of false teachers and reptiles and assorted idlers and blackguards. When you are taken out early tomorrow morning to be executed there will be lace hoods for the ladies and smokes for the men. So don't tell me I am arrogant or not a nice person. Under the circumstances, that's pretty damned generous I would say. Love to all.
Chases Tumbleweeds

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11/23/2008 02:17 PM
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You sure get riled easily. Here, I'll share something with ya ......

:49:
I am NOT a human !!
Wil
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11/23/2008 02:18 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Pls note that:

Great Tribulation for world is 7years
Great Tribulation for Israel is 3.5yrs (shortened)

Matthew:24:22: "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
The Elect here mean the 144thousand Israelites and Tribulational saints who did not receive the mark of beast
.....>>
 Quoting: Mike ArchAngel 557285


Most people mistake Daniel's 70th Week with the Great Trib. Daniel's 70th Week is the last 7 years of man's 6000 years rule on earth. It is called a Week because it is a Sabbath Cycle... and at its midpoint (3.5yrs) is the Abomination of Desolation when the AC desecrates the Temple in Jerusalem. This event kicks off the Great Trib... only for those people who refused to take the Mark of AC or worship him. For the unbelievers there's no problem, they took the mark and life goes on for them, working and getting married.

Going back to Daniel's 70th week, during this period of 7 years there will be a global cataclysm (7 Trumpets of Rev) brought about by the Star Wormwood... which will cause widespread destruction around the World, but this is not the Great Trib Jesus spoke of.

Yes, Jesus said those days will be shortened... precisely due to the fact the last Sabbath Cycle ends a year ahead of the 6000th yr!

Here is the calculation: 6000 yrs divided by 7 yrs = 857.14285 cycles. That remainder 0.14285 is exactly 1 year.

Therefore Jesus will return on the last Sabbath Year... exactly 1 year ahead of man's allotted 6000 years!

For those who are watching... knowing the Sabbath years is crucial to watch for the possible beginning of Daniel's 70th Week. The Sabbath years are 2008/9, 2015/6, 2022/3....

Wil
Wil
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11/23/2008 02:51 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Prewrath is same as post-trib? Thanks. I didn't know that.

Do you mind me asking, what do you think about Daniel 11 and the King of the South that is fighting the Antichrist and his forces? Also the ships of Chittim that come against him? It's a little unclear to me if the King of the North is also coming against him or if, in fact, the antichrist has taken over the King of the North's position, and after he does that, when it then refers to the King of the North, it's referring to the Antichrist. But anyway, my whole point is that how can the Antichrist require the whole world to take the mark of the beast to buy or sell when, in fact, there exists this whole other kingdom that is fighting against him?
 Quoting: Michelle


When the AC comes to power it is very possible there are still nations with rulers and pockets of resistance in different parts of the World. Notice the Bible said the AC will rise up with power given to him by the "10 kings."

Wil
VAN HELSING
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11/23/2008 02:55 PM
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Thanks for the pull,tumbleweed. You're not all bad.

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