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ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!

 
VAN HELSING
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11/23/2008 02:55 PM
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Thanks for the pull,tumbleweed. You're not all bad.
VAN HELSING
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11/23/2008 02:55 PM
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Thanks for the pull,tumbleweed. You're not all bad.
VAN HELSING
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11/23/2008 03:05 PM
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Yo ...Wil...

There is a guy named Rabbi Ben Wacholder who wrote a long thing about "Chronomessianism" in the Hebrew Union College publication who made the point that at certain times prophetic events are the year AFTER the Sabbatical year for rather long,abstruse reasons having to do with the lunar calendar etc. i got the ref. from Church's 'Hidden Prophecies in the Psalms' and sent for it.

Now 09/10 is the year after. This jives with some really bad astrology, the worst of the century that year into early 2011. I personaly believe that may well be the year for WW3 and the Rapture which starts off the Tribulation.There are other criteria I have-visions etc. Not mine but other people's including a rather dramatic one in which a well known Christian saw a time clock in 2004 with 7 minutes to midnight. I am looking at the whole Christmas season of 2010-11 as possibly the season of the rapture advent.
Anonymous Coward
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11/23/2008 03:11 PM
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bump
Anonymous Coward
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11/23/2008 03:20 PM
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5a
Mike ArchAngel
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11/24/2008 07:20 AM
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Jesus spoke of Great Tribulation specially meant for Israelites.
However...HE use "IN THOSE DAYS" to signified the great tribulations for the whole world.
Woe unto those who had "tainted milk" (not only Israelites)

M't:24:19: And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
M'r:13:17: But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Lu:21:23: But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Re:9:6: And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

men here meant everyone and not limited to Israelites.
I can say there are 2 different period of those days.
rb
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11/24/2008 09:12 AM
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maybe that explains what happens to little kids

maybe they are raptured too?

leaving the parents to woe?

love and peace

rb
rb
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11/24/2008 11:54 AM
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I'll tell you one thing

posttrib teaching is COMPLETELY depressing

like when you're little and find out there's no Santa Claus

it doesn't make me want to lift up my head

it makes me want to roll into a ball

I get no joy from it

peace

rb
czygyny

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11/24/2008 01:40 PM
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I'll tell you one thing

posttrib teaching is COMPLETELY depressing

like when you're little and find out there's no Santa Claus

it doesn't make me want to lift up my head

it makes me want to roll into a ball

I get no joy from it

peace

rb
 Quoting: rb 558123


I am not particularly thrilled about facing hard times, either, rb.

Consider this: Whatever He has chosen you to endure for His glory and esteem will be your honor to overcome so that you may stand before Him without shame and gain eternal accolades and reward.

Think of the cloud of witnesses looking down and cheering us on.

Read the apocryphal books of the Maccabbees. The trials they endured because they loved the same Creator that we love is a superb testament to the overcoming Power of YHWH.

Whether early removal or grinding times ahead, do it all for the love and honor of your Father in heaven and His Son.

Yohanan (John) 21:18-19 Speaking to Kefa (Peter)
‘“Truly, truly I say to you, when you were younger you girded yourself and walked where you wished, but when you are old you shall stretch out your hands and another shall gird you and bring you where you do not wish.”

Now this He said, signifying by what death he would esteem Elohim. And having said this, He said to him, “Follow Me.”’

Have courage, friend.
Kletos, Eklektos & Pistos
Wil
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11/24/2008 02:12 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
I'll tell you one thing

posttrib teaching is COMPLETELY depressing

like when you're little and find out there's no Santa Claus

it doesn't make me want to lift up my head

it makes me want to roll into a ball

I get no joy from it

peace

rb
 Quoting: rb 558123


Jesus told us to watch and pray... so that we may be found worthy to escape all these things. See, there's an escape provided by God to his children.

The Bible warn us of the coming cataclysmic events so that we will be prepared and to take action when the time comes. If we are to be raptured before the bad things happened (pre-trib) what's the point of the prophecies?

God said he will send a Prophet to lead his people to a safe place. We have to wait for the call. There's going to be another exodus!

Wil
VAN HELSING
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11/24/2008 02:38 PM
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RIGHT ON, Wil. Don't let these false teachers of the post-tribulational rapture steal away your expectancy of an imminent,pre-tribulation rapture. Their scriptural basis for their beliefs is virtually non-existent,as I demonstrated critiquing the OP's flimsy and even downright distortive and deceptive scripture twisting. They have no adequate answer to ANY of the fundamental pre-trib arguments which are posted on this thread.
VAN HELSING
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11/24/2008 02:46 PM
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rb- post trib teaching is depressing because


1) it is FALSE


2) It distorts HOLY WRIT


3) It manipulates the Word and gives us a picture of the character of God toward His children that is closer to an Old Testament view than it is the Good Shepherd of the NT. it is thusly a FALSE THEOPHANY.



4) It is hyper-legalistic and is a part of the GALATIAN HERESY of salvation by religious works rather than by efficacious GRACE and the LIBERTY of the HOLY SPIRIT.



Your gut feeling toward is goes a lot deeper than any Santa Claus factor. THAT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT TELLING YOU IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS THAT HE IS NOT ASKING YOU TO BE CAST INTO THE SAME DISPENSATIONAL MESS WITH THE DEVIL AND THE JUDAIZING SOULS THAT HERETOFORE HAVE REJECTED CHRIST, IN THE COMING TRIBULATION WHICH IS NOT INTENDED FOR JESUS' CHURCH.



There is more wisdom in that "vibe' from the Spirit than there is in the entire paoer mache' edifice of post-tribulational heresy. You can take that to the bank.
WIL
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11/24/2008 02:48 PM
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Sorry, VH... I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture. The Bible said the gathering of the saints or elect is after the Tribulation. However, I respect every person's right to his opinion.

Wil
VAN HELSING
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Wil-yeah- I see that. I misread your post. well, there is a great outpouring in Joel that is prophesied. That's next,before WW3 and the rapture, I think. When the dreams and visions promised are given, I believe clarity will then abound. ANd of course, I think many who are not now pre-trib will be when God pours out the spirit of prophecy. Maybe you will be one.
H2O
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In 2001 GOD showed me that there is no Rapture !

I know it, and He showed me the truth in the scripture !

It was actually the Spirit of Jesus, whom came to me in a dream vision, that also shook the house and caused thunder and lightning out of a clear blue sky.

I was wide awake siting on my couch, and He Jesus made mr fall into a sleep like state, at a moment and a day, I had not selected or anything, i was not praying or anything like that..

Here [link to www.benotdeceived.net]
Join free I am H2O, and say I sent you and start a thread if you want.

But this place Is where I hang out and post.

I will not fight the fight here today, but I can show you just this one verse, and if you read it and are honest with yourself, you will know, there is no rapture for the masses, as taught by the TV liars and others.

John 17

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.


18 As thou didst send me into the world, even so sent I them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
20 Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word;
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/24/2008 06:26 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
I'll tell you one thing

posttrib teaching is COMPLETELY depressing

like when you're little and find out there's no Santa Claus

it doesn't make me want to lift up my head

it makes me want to roll into a ball

I get no joy from it

peace

rb
 Quoting: rb 558123


that's EXACTLY WHY the pre-trib falicy is so popular. Nobody gets a warm fuzzy feeling from post-trib so they decide to put their heads in the sand and dream up something a little more easy to digest.

This is why it's so dangerous to preach pre-trib because of that very comment. Most people will lose all hope and faith when the great trib comes.

People who believe in post-trib are already prepared, mentally & spirtitually.

My reaction to post trib is exactly opposite to yours.

It makes me lift my want to lift my head to heaven, arms stretched out and cry "you are my God, in YOU do I put my trust and no one else. I fear only you Lord, because you are the only one who can destroy both body and soul. I believe that you have a plan for me even in these very worst of times. I will praise you even unto death which is very well likely to come soon!! Hallelujah!!!!!!!!!

If you allow outside cicumstances to dictate your joy then you have work to do spiritually. (I'm preaching to myself too) True joy cannot be quenched even in the worst of trials.
Michelle

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11/24/2008 08:13 PM
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Well, maybe we'll all be in that pocket of the world (the King of the South) that is fighting and resisting the Antichrist, and we won't have to have our heads lobbed off. But if it happens when I think it's going to happen (when I'm in my 80s or 90s) heck, I'll probably be so sick of this world and ready to go home to meet Jesus that I'll be running to the chopping block or, perhaps, hobbling on my walker or cane to get there. LOL.

But seriously, no worries. If martydom is what the Lord has appointed you to, what a blessing and an honor! Think of the rich rewards that must await you in the other world if you paid the ultimate sacrifice! Those that have will be highly esteemed and "shine" more brightly than everyone else. A quick chop-chop for an eternity of glory! It's worth it.
Genesis 3:15: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." The Nephilim "seed" are TPTB.

yelk3@live.com
Anonymous Coward
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11/24/2008 08:34 PM
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It's funny how you bash people over the head with undisputable evidence and they still spit out man-made doctrines! Actually it's not funny at all.

I CAN SAY WITH ALL CONFIDENCE THAT THE RAPTURE WILL NOT HAPPEN TODAY AND IT WILL NOT HAPPEN TOMORROW.

II Thess chapter 2 tells us that the antichrist must be revealed first before the second coming and our gathering to him can occur.

The antichrist will war against the saints for 3 1/2 years, then the sky will darken after his reign and Christ will return at some time around that point. PEOPLE READ YOUR
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607


Allow me to further add to your post. Technically there is no rapture. There is no return of Christ (a.k.a. second coming in the physical)

If you read more and add 2 Corinthians to it along with Revelation you realize eventually the second coming happens in your heart or not at all. Some will some won't accept the free gift, but all are saved or those last words could not have been said.
Lastly you will also discover that the 'rapture' is actually called the resurrection.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/24/2008 09:37 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
It's funny how you bash people over the head with undisputable evidence and they still spit out man-made doctrines! Actually it's not funny at all.

I CAN SAY WITH ALL CONFIDENCE THAT THE RAPTURE WILL NOT HAPPEN TODAY AND IT WILL NOT HAPPEN TOMORROW.

II Thess chapter 2 tells us that the antichrist must be revealed first before the second coming and our gathering to him can occur.

The antichrist will war against the saints for 3 1/2 years, then the sky will darken after his reign and Christ will return at some time around that point. PEOPLE READ YOUR


Allow me to further add to your post. Technically there is no rapture. There is no return of Christ (a.k.a. second coming in the physical)

If you read more and add 2 Corinthians to it along with Revelation you realize eventually the second coming happens in your heart or not at all. Some will some won't accept the free gift, but all are saved or those last words could not have been said.
Lastly you will also discover that the 'rapture' is actually called the resurrection.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 558509



That's an interesting theory. I have to disagree though. The bible predicted the first physical coming of Jesus Christ and he did, in fact, come. There is no reason to doubt that his second coming, would all of sudden, be spirtualized and not actual.
I'm also very well aware that the "rapture" is actually the resurrection. If you read through 99% of posts you'll see that I always put "rapture" in quotes. I actually detest the word. I don't even think it should be used. It has been, and always will be, the resurrection. There's much less confusion when we stick to the facts.
WIL
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11/25/2008 03:30 AM
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The Gathering that will happen after the Great Trib encompasses 2 events:

1. The resurrection of saints (the Apostles, the Prophets, and all those who died in Christ, including Noah, Abraham, King David, the Christians martyred by the AC, etc.);

2. The "rapture" (Greek: harpazo) of the elect who are still alive after the Great Trib. They will be transformed instantly to glorified eternal bodies. They will not experience physical death anymore.

What is the purpose of this Gathering?

They are the ruling team raised up by God to rule as kings and priests with Jesus Christ in the Millenium!

I hope this clears up the confusion.

WIL
Anonymous Coward
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The Pre-Tribulation Rapture View

When dealing with doctrinal issues, sometimes some truths are right there in the Bible in front of our noses, and it's easy for us to understand them. Other truths are more challenging and require us to look at the whole chapter, book, or bible in order to fully grasp the concepts. When any one verse dealing with a particular doctrinal issue appears to stand apart from other similar truths, we should suspect that there may be an interpretational or possibly a translational issue involved that needs further research. I believe the doctrine of the rapture is one such difficult truth.

The word 'rapture' is not listed in the English bible. But it is listed in the Latin Vulgate bible, written by Jerome in the early 400's AD. The word there is 'raeptius,' which translated into English means 'rapture.' It is found here in the English bible:

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be *caught up* together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In English bibles, 'raeptius' is transliterated into 'caught up.' That happens sometimes during the translation process to try to communicate the point more familiarly.

The original Thessalonian manuscripts however were written in Greek. There were actually no 'English' words at all in the original bibles, including the word 'bible' itself. And the original Greek word for 'rapture' is listed in English script as 'harpazo,' which means 'to rapture up into the air,' or to 'snatch away.'

It was this original Greek term 'harpazo' that Jerome later translated into Latin as 'raeptius,' which was later translated into English as 'rapture.' These terms all mean the same thing: 'to be caught up.'

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
[link to www.raptureready.com]

Below are some reasons I believe the Pre-Tribulational Rapture doctrine is likely to be the most Biblically accurate view:

1. Imminency. We're supposed to look, watch, and wait for Jesus' imminent return. Nothing has to happen before Jesus returns for us. (1 Cor. 1:7; Phil. 3:20; 1 Thes. 1:10; Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; 1 Peter 1:13; Jude 21)
The non-Pre-Trib positions ALL require certain things to happen 1st before Jesus can return. Things like the antichrist's 7 yr peace treaty with Israel, the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount right on or next to the Muslim Dome of the Rock, the 7 Seals of Judgement, etc. These things destroy imminency.

2. Dispensation of the Tribulation. The Bible states that Daniel's 70th Week/Tribulation/Great Tribulation/Time of Jacob's Trouble/Day of the Lord/Wrath of God are all things related to God's dealing with Israel getting ready to restore it back to His grace. (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Ezek. 20:22-44; 22:13-22) This is not a time for the Church, but a time for "those who dwell on the earth"- meaning non-Christians. (Rev. 3:10; 6:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14; 17:2, 8)

3. Dispensation of the Church. The Church is promised to be taken up to the Father's House. (John 14:1-3 Compare this verse with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) How can that be if the Church remains here on earth thru the 2nd Coming? Going up to meet Jesus in the air at the moment He's coming down to finish off the Antichrist and his armies is not the same as the Church going up to heaven. There is no mention of Jesus going back to heaven in the Bible after His 2nd Coming. And I don't think He's going to open heaven and come down with all His angels just to pick up the Church in the air, then do a mid-flight U-turn & go back up to heaven. Then grab some horses and linens for the Church. Then do another U-turn and come back immediately to finish off the Antichrist. The Bible doesn't say that.

Also the Church is a Mystery. (Eph. 3:1-13; 2:11-22) That means a new Truth has just been revealed. The Old Testament prophets knew nothing about it or it's role in God's plan. But they did know a lot about the Tribulation period. This is further evidence that the two ages: the Old Testament Israel era & the New Testament Church era will not overlap. Right now, the Jews and Gentiles are co-mingled in the Church, (Eph. 2- 3) but this can't be when you look at God's 70 Weeks program for Israel in Daniel. The two must be separated prior to the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week, which is the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation.

The Church has also been promised deliverance from the TIME of God's wrath. That means, "out of the time period" of the Tribulation. (1 Thes. 1:9-10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10)

4. Time Gap Needed. A time period is needed in heaven to handle some things that will take place with the Church after the rapture.

The Judgment Seat of Christ (or Bema in Greek) needs to happen to Christians in the Church in heaven before they return with Jesus to the Battle of Armageddon. (2 Corinthians 5:10) This is when they get their rewards for good Christian service (or not)

The Bride of Christ (the Church) has to be in heaven to get ready for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-10) as I mentioned earlier. They can't do this if they don't go up to heaven before the 2nd Coming.

The 24 Elders around the Throne in heaven appear to be very representative of the Church. If this is so, the Church must be in heaven prior to the opening of the 1st Scroll of the Tribulation- the opening kick-off if you will. (Revelation 4:1- 5:14) In the New Testament, the elders represent the Church. (Acts 15:6; 20:28) In the Old Testament, the elders were always 24 in number, and appointed by King David to represent the entire priesthood. In Jesus' new Millennial Kingdom, Christians will assume the title of the Priesthood. (Revelation 20:6)

Where are all the mortals? If all the Christians are raptured up at the 2nd Coming of Christ, who will be left to re-populate the earth during the Millennial Kingdom? All the bad guys will be gone because of the Battle of Armageddon and the Wheat & Tares/Sheep & Goats Judgment. Raptured Christians will have immortal bodies and will no longer pro-create. (sorry) But the Bible clearly states that there will be mortal Christians who survived the cataclysm and who would carry on mortal life on earth. (Isa. 65:20-25). And, the Wheat & Tares/Sheep & Goats Judgment would also be impossible if all the good guys were already raptured. There would be no need for a separation of the two groups of mortals. This is an impossible situation for the Post-Tribulation Rapture proponents.

5. The Presence of the Holy Spirit. The 'man of lawlessness'/Antichrist/beast is said to be held back for now. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12) The 'restrainer of evil'/Holy Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) is at work in the Church right now and will leave with it in the Pre-Trib rapture. This will then free the Antichrist to unleash his demonic power on the world soon after, which is the first Seal of Judgment to be opened in heaven after the rapture. The Pre-Trib view is the only view that can work here.

6. Here are some comparisons between the Rapture & the 2nd Coming:

Rapture: is a translation or resurrection coming where the Lord comes FOR His Church/Bride (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:15-17) and taking her to His Father's House. (John 14:3).
2nd Coming: Jesus is coming WITH his saints/Church/Bride to set up His Millennial Kingdom on earth for 1000 yrs. (Rev. 19; Zech. 14:4-5; Matt. 24:27-31)

Rapture: is a Mystery, a newly revealed truth (1 Cor. 15:51-54; Col. 1:26) not known to the Old Testament prophets, and making it a separate event from anything they have foreseen. The New Testament talks about the Rapture of the Church and the 2nd Coming.
2nd Coming: was predicted in the Old Testament. (Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4) The Old Testament of Israel just talks about the 2nd Coming.

More comparisons between the two:

Rapture: Translation of all believers
2nd Coming: No translation of anyone

Rapture: Translated saints go up to heaven
2nd Coming: Translated saints return to earth

Rapture: Earth is not judged at that time
2nd Coming: Earth is judged and righteousness is restored

Rapture: Imminent and sign-less
2nd Coming: Follows exact signs and days according to
Daniel and Revelation prior to.

Rapture: Is for Believers only
2nd Coming: Is for everyone

Rapture: Happens before the Day of Wrath
2nd Coming: Concludes the Day of Wrath

Rapture: Has no reference to Satan
2nd Coming: Satan is bound up for 1000 yrs.

Rapture: Jesus comes in the air only
2nd Coming: Jesus comes down to the earth

Rapture: Only Christians see Him
2nd Coming: Everyone sees Him

Rapture: Tribulation then begins
2nd Coming: Millennial Kingdom begins

7. Practical Results of a Pre-Trib Rapture. Some people think the Pre-Tribbers have illusions of escapism that will destroy their witness and faith if the Pre-Trib Rapture doesn't play out. They think Pre-Tribbers don't care about anything or anyone because they think they have a 'Get out of Jail Free' card for the Tribulation. However, they might not realize that Jesus will reward Christians for good service at the Judgment Seat of Christ later in heaven after the rapture. If there is no good Christian service, there may be little or no rewards waiting for them after the rapture.

The fact that Jesus could return today for us should be a good motivator for living a good Christian life and doing good works for Christ.

Also, knowing that loved ones: friends and family, who aren't Christians will be left behind after the rapture to face the coming cataclysm of the Great Tribulation should be enough to motivate them to try to lead as many people as possible to Christ before it's too late.

If the Pre-Wrath or Mid-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation Rapture view was accurate, a simple study of Daniel's 70th Week would then show you exactly when Jesus is returning for the 2nd Coming. All you have to do is note when the Antichrist's 7 year peace treaty with Israel is signed, or note just when the Antichrist's abomination of desolation in the new Jewish Temple happens, and you can compute the exact day of our Lord's 2nd Coming. No imminency there. No need to always live a righteous life there. You could then just sin and sin and wait around until the last day before Christ's return and then repent and be good. Based on my understanding of the Bible, I just don't think it works like that.

And whoever said that we must suffer through the Tribulation to be purified, or to do good works in it to get saved?

Ephesians 2:7-9
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What about everyone who has died already who didn't suffer any hardships at all? By some people's definition, they are not saved because they have suffered no great tribulation. That just doesn't make any sense. Jesus said that we would be delivered from the time and hour of God's judgment to "those who dwell on the earth." His great judgment is for those who have rejected Jesus, not for His children. Satan has given Christians plenty of tribulation over the years, and continues to do so even today.

[link to www.persecution.org]

Revelation 3:10 (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

That is the 'Blessed Hope!"

Titus 2:13 (KJV)
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

!MARANATHA!

Peace.

[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.raptureme.com]
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to rapturealert.com]
[link to rapturealert.com]
VAN HELSING
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11/25/2008 11:08 AM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
OP.......................


A "warm fuzzy feeling". You think that motivates the pre-trib teachers ?? You are so incredibly stupid and superficial.


But PLEASE keep posting. Or should I say,keep shoveling. You've pretty much got the post-trib view dead and buried under 6 feet of ridiculous commentary and banal remarks. You've done a wonderful job on this thread demonstrating to all the kind of person who is attracted to the Post Tribulationist position. And your commentary is priceless in showing that the Post-Tribulational "teaching" is no teaching at all but rather the dissemination of a series of vaguely connected false beliefs.




Good job.
VAN HELSING
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11/25/2008 11:10 AM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
H20- You were apparently "shown" something that contradicts the clear presentation of the pre-Tribulation view in the Bible. Ruh-roh.



Next time someone from the other side takes you to the movies...check for the horns and a tail.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/25/2008 01:31 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
"rapture" (I Thess 4:16-17) = day of the Lord (I Thess 5:2) = sky darkened (Joel 2:31) which stated by Christ, is to happen after the great trib. (Matt 24:29)

Enough said. Cannot be refruted. Proven by scripture.
czygyny

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11/25/2008 02:52 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
And whoever said that we must suffer through the Tribulation to be purified, or to do good works in it to get saved?

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 558701


I don't believe any of us said you MUST suffer through the Tribulation to be purified, nor that you do good works to be saved. The call is to be found trustworthy, no matter what you are called to endure, and not be fearful of what 'might' happen.

There is no promise that we as believers will not suffer more pressures and hardships in the days and years ahead BEFORE the worst gets here. There may be grievous and even life-threatening times ahead for many of us.

There appears to be a terribly myopic and arrogant assumption in believers that this nation (U.S.) will never suffer persecution or hardship at all, and that things will be as they always have been.

I find this amazing considering we are in the throes of yet another, ever more frequent 'birth-pang'. People are suffering even now.

These events are all in YHVH's own good timing, and everything is in His own capable hands, no doubt about it, and we all must rest on that understanding of His complete control not matter how 'out of control' it seems. He will lead us through.

I would, though, fellow siblings in Messiah, that you pray to be prepared for what comes. Consider yourself a warrior for Yeshua, not a fearful follower.

I believe somewhere we are told to put on battle-gear--not to fight people, but overcome spiritual forces. These spiritual forces have insinuated themselves into the heart of every institute of mankind. They are at the helm of all the nations. It is as it has been prophecied, their time is about to be fulfilled.

Plan on being awake, prepared and at your watch, waiting for the Master to return to His household. Tending to the servants in Messiah, harvesting the whitened fields of the world, battling against every unseen foe that we will, in the end, judge.

I pray every day that we will be worthy to escape all that comes upon this world. Just don't fear the hardship that may come, take on that warrior's spirit…

‘My, brothers, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the proving of your belief works endurance.
And, let endurance have a perfect work, so that you be perfect and complete, lacking in naught.
If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of Elohim, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it shall be given to him.’
Ya'acob (James) 1:2-5 IFSR
Kletos, Eklektos & Pistos
Anonymous Coward
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11/25/2008 02:57 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Rapture is a complete joke.


christers worship a slime ball murderous scumbag god.

A god that, according to their crappy bible:

Slaughtered all the first born babies in Egypt one night
and then slaughtered all the first born animals too.

What a shithead.

That prick god slaughtered people at random and on less than a whim.

he also murdered the entire population of the planet. A real shithole god.



THE BIBLE SAYS TO:

Stone your kid to death if he doesnt mind you:



Deu 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Deu 21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;


Deu 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.


The above verses are a small example of why christters are all fucked up in the head.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/25/2008 05:31 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Rapture is a complete joke.


christers worship a slime ball murderous scumbag god.

A god that, according to their crappy bible:

Slaughtered all the first born babies in Egypt one night
and then slaughtered all the first born animals too.

What a shithead.

That prick god slaughtered people at random and on less than a whim.

he also murdered the entire population of the planet. A real shithole god.



THE BIBLE SAYS TO:

Stone your kid to death if he doesnt mind you:



Deu 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Deu 21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;


Deu 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.


The above verses are a small example of why christters are all fucked up in the head.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 555715


I bet the world would be a far better place right now if we actually lived by this law - and I get the feeling you wouldn't live long.
yashayah
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12/04/2008 12:57 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
another reason it matters is because a lot of rapturees think that the mark of the beast will come after the rapture.therefore any mark available, like maybe the rfid chip, they will take it because they believe "if im still here then it can't be the mark"so they will take it.
Charles Fort
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12/04/2008 01:02 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Because the Book of Enoch is the origin of the Rapture and the Second Coming, I asked the LORD of Spirits to send one of HIS holy one's to guide me through my search for the Rapture date. Lo & behold, its actually in the BoE, the year, the month, and the day. But its a long way from here, anyhow, here’s all the verses and info leading to it, the “calendar” link is a must read to fully appreciated the encryption involved.



1Enoch.58:[1]In the five hundredth year, and in the seventh month, on the fourteenth day of the month, of the lifetime of Enoch, in that parable, I saw that the heaven of heavens shook; that it shook violently; and that the powers of the Most High, and the Angels, thousands and thousands, and myriads of myriads, were agitated with great agitation. And when I looked, the Ancient of Days was sitting on the throne of his glory, while the angels and saints were standing around HIM.

The above is consistent with the following;1Enoch. Chapter 2:[1]Behold, HE comes with ten thousands of his Saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against HIM. Obviously Enoch chose to put this in Chapter (2) as a clue for those searching the date of the grand finally, “thanks Enoch!” It is at the Second Coming that the Rapture takes place, but before the Punishment. Continuation of Chapter 58 to Rapture date;

1Enoch.58:[5]But when the time shall come, then shall the power, the punishment, and the judgment take place, which the LORD of Spirits has prepared for those who prostrate themselves to the judgment of righteousness, for those who abjure that judgment, and for those who take HIS name in vain.[6]That day has been prepared for the elect as a day of covenant; and for sinners as a day of inquisition.


[5]But when the time shall come, then shall the power, the punishment, and the judgment take place,
[5]But when the time shall come, then shall the power, the punishment, and the judgment take place,

Ahhhh “when the time shall come” meaning that GOD descends but does not Judge immediately. The above is the second time GOD descends from the throne, because at the first time there was no inquisition for the sinners, only Flood waters, and all three parables that Enoch speaks in the Book all speak of the Second Coming. So then, “what does the LORD do until that time?” For this the Holy one had me look at the dream the Son of Man had.



1Enoch.89:[26]I saw also that the LORD of the Sheep came to them, and taking in HIS hand the sceptre of HIS wrath seized the earth, which became rent asunder; while all the beasts and birds of heaven fell from the sheep, and sunk into the earth, which closed over them.

while all the beasts and birds of heaven fell from the sheep,
while all the beasts and birds of heaven fell from the sheep,

Ahhhh so that’s what GOD does!!!! The LORD my brothers & sisters removes the birds of Heaven from the sheep just like the first time before the Flood, GOD chains up the fallen Angels that took the daughters of men for wives & the spiritual fallen Angels too, something that only the Son of Man can teach you. As for the beast, they are “the Giants” the offspring of the angels minus the giant gene (DNA) who have tyrannized mankind once again. At this point you're probably asking, “how can we be sure that this dream will lead to the Rapture date?” Well, lets keep reading the remainder of the Dream.



1Enoch.89:[27]I saw, too, that a large sword was given to the sheep, who went forth against all the beasts of the field to slay them. [28]But all the beasts and birds of heaven fled away from before their face. [29]And I saw a throne erected in a delectable land; [30]Upon this sat the LORD of the Sheep, who received all the sealed books; [31]Which were open before him.

Now I know what your thinking, if the birds of Heaven and the beasts sunk into the earth that closed over them, “how are they back again?” Simple, the BoE predicts another fall of angels of ancient Greek-gods proportions. Click on the link below to read “Rise of the Greek Gods 2”
Thread: DISCOVERY: Nearby future there will be a "second rise" of the Greek-Gods. BoE predicted Zeus & the Titans.

Let us continue to the Rapture date. The dream continues with the Temple being built and “then” the LORD sitting on the throne of his glory receives the book of Life. Your probably asking, “how can I be sure that those who are Raptured build the Throne?” Well lets keep reading Holy scriptures where the Rapture and the Second Coming originated from.

1Enoch.92:[13]Afterwards there shall be another Week, the eighth of righteousness, to which shall be given a sword to execute judgment and justice upon all oppressors. [14]Sinners shall be delivered up into the hands of the righteous, who during its completion shall acquire habitations by their righteousness; and the house of the Great KING shall be established for celebrations for ever. After this, in the ninth Week, shall the judgment of righteousness be revealed to the whole world. [15]Every work of the ungodly shall disappear from the whole earth; the world shall be marked for destruction; and all men shall be on the watch for the path of integrity.

Ahhhh
so the Throne “is” erected in the eighth Week (ours), and only in the ninth Week does GOD reveal the Judgment to World. So the LORD’S scriptures are consistent, the LORD doesn’t contradict HIMSELF, how wonderful to read from a Book without “lies!” But your asking, “how can I be sure that it’s the date of the Rapture?” Enoch wrote many good things, in fact, all Christian - Judaism - Muslim fundamentals and belief came from Enoch (BoE). The Great KING also revealed many secrets by His words, but never, never, did He “ever” go into detail about dates such as the above in Chapter 58. The Rapture & Second Coming are described in details for those of us who still have eyes that can see and possess “free will” to choose, most are stripped of this freedom, and are slaves to the faiths they were born into, not understanding why they must believe what they believe, only that they must, because its what they were told.



The Calendar of GOD must be used at this point.
Thread: Book of Enoch CALENDAR - needed for calculating RAPTURE date & The Second Coming.

The calendar is made up of 10 Weeks, every week has 777 years, and today being 2008 on our calendar is the fifth day of the eighth Week on the LORD’S calendar. Before this 8th Week is completed the righteous who are elected will be "Raptured" to a delectable land “Paradise Eden” and those who trusted in the Name of the LORD of Spirits begin to live eternally and build the 2nd Temple. The exact date of the Rapture is the 500th year of the 8th Week. This translate to the year 2054 on our calendar. The exact month Enoch says is the 7th, and the day is the 14th. Despite the Vatican also meddled with the calendar, I suspect GOD foresaw this eventuality, and therefore, the 10 days the Vatican removed are inline with the 10 Weeks of GOD bringing the Rapture date to July 3rd 2054 on a Friday, the Sabbath.

The 3rd represents the (3) parables of Enoch fulfilling the Rapture & Second Coming prophecies.

And if we subtract 500 from 777 we have 277

(2) represents the second coming, (7) represents the first Temple that was destroyed in 70 AD, and finally the last (7) represents the everlasting House of the Great KING Enoch. Amen!
 Quoting: Charles Fort 563361
Michelle

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12/08/2008 09:34 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
"rapture" (I Thess 4:16-17) = day of the Lord (I Thess 5:2) = sky darkened (Joel 2:31) which stated by Christ, is to happen after the great trib. (Matt 24:29)

Enough said. Cannot be refruted. Proven by scripture.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607


Great! Short and sweet! I should memorize this and quote it when needed.
Genesis 3:15: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." The Nephilim "seed" are TPTB.

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