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ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!

 
Anonymous Coward
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Sure love my brothers and sisters in Christ! I'll just jump right in. Mans basic spiritual problem is the integrity of the word of God! We don't understand because we don't believe what the word says! I will set about to prove the pre-trib rapture in an unusual manner. 1 Corinthians 15 :22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. The scriptures seem to be saying that noone has gone to heaven except Jesus. Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, You see all including Enoch died . see Heb 11. Also the Greek word for see here is eido and means to see with the eyes. Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little * lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. The Greek word for taste here is geuomai and means (2b) to feel, make trial of, experience. Enoch died at 365 years of age after God had moved him from one place to another on the Earth so that he himself wouldn't physically see others die! However, he did taste death. 2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. The word for went up here is alah. It can mean to go up and outward. There is another Hebrew word for ascend which is nasa which means to go straight up.
2 Kings 2:16 And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men *; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send. 2:17 And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not. They were sending a search party because he went up and out. Though God may use Elijah and Enoch as examples of the rapture, they didn't ascend to the throne of God! Elijah did not go to be alive in the presence of God. Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter *, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart *,
17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. What transpired was a vision which is revelation not necessarily a real event. In acts ch. ten Peter has a vision. Make comparisons.
Acts 13:36 For * David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: He died and rotted. Acts 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. .(speaking of J.C.). His tomb was empty (no bones) Every other grave has bones. (The dead are not alive yet)
John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Lazarus wasn't conscious or in the presence of God. Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Death is spoken of as "soul sleep". It is not spoken of as being conscious with God in heaven. 2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. The Apostle Paul is dead in the ground waiting to be raised to receive his crown. pt. 1
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2012 05:26 PM
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John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.Luke 14:13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot * recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just. The understanding here is a future rising and reward. You see the dead are not alive now, but in the future shall be raised. Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image *, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. The first resurrection happens at Armegeddon. If the first resurrection is also the rapture then Christians must go through all seven years of wrath. ( Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.). One week here is seven years. In Isaiah it gives a description of the millenial reign of Christ. Isaiah 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. There will be birth and death in the millenial reign of Christ. At the first Resurrection the dead are raised into their glorified bodies. Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. Those that are alive and remaining at the first resurrection who came not against Israel and received not the mark of the beast will repopulate the earth. One group is glorified the other isn't. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all * sleep, but we shall all be changed, 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. You see the living people at the Resurrection will stay in natural bodies and the people that are alive at the rapture (rapapere from harpazo from caught up.) will receive glorified bodies. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.) 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. It doesn't say " scare the heck out of each other !" 1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come * upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. These two verses indicate that were outta here! Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: ( his angel / Arch?). 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, (the angel). 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter *. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:. (trumpet speaking ?). Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; They have been redeemed. Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Revelation 5:9 describes saints who have been redeemed from the earth and crowned. The dead are not alive now. But shall be in heaven prior to the opening of the first seal. Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.The administration of the grace of God began on Pentecost and shall end when the day of the Lord begins. Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

pt. 2
Anonymous Coward
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Do you see the different methods of salvation? Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds. It helps if you have as an hermeneutic rightly dividing administrations patriarchal, law, grace etc.... For about 2000 years now it has been available to be saved by grace. During daniels 70th week it will be " stand till the end" so to speak. I think there is enough evidence in this thesis to warrant further research. Be a Berean and prove the Pre-Trib rapture or disprove it . But time draws short.

pt. 3
spongebrain
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08/07/2012 05:27 PM
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pt.4
Anonymous Coward
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08/07/2012 05:30 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
17-pages. . .lol

Yep, "debate OVER!"
blaynewayne
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08/08/2012 12:45 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
The question is:

Will our Lord Jesus have a bride and a mistress? (those left behind?) The answer is no.

When Noah's ark was shut...it was shut. That's it.

Parable of the ten virgins:

25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came,
And those who were ready went in with him to the wedding;
and the door was shut.

25:11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying,
'Lord, Lord, open to us!'

25:12 But he answered and said,
'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.'

25:13 Watch therefore,
for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

It's one event, just like Noah's flood was.

It's sobering truth. God Bless.
Anonymous Coward
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08/08/2012 02:28 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
The question is:

Will our Lord Jesus have a bride and a mistress? (those left behind?) The answer is no.

When Noah's ark was shut...it was shut. That's it.

Parable of the ten virgins:

25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came,
And those who were ready went in with him to the wedding;
and the door was shut.

25:11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying,
'Lord, Lord, open to us!'

25:12 But he answered and said,
'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.'

25:13 Watch therefore,
for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

It's one event, just like Noah's flood was.

It's sobering truth. God Bless.
 Quoting: blaynewayne 21546463


Those folks He spoke this to are all dead now - they are watching for anything ;)

Unless of course all the Doom warned of in the gospels referred to the demolition of Jerusalem in 70AD, which would resolve a boatload of discrepancies. . .
Anonymous Coward
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12/13/2012 12:27 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Who is the Lord bringing with him? If we that are alive and remain shall not go before those which are asleep, and he brings those who are asleep in Him, we only have one assumption to make, it's us the "church"....Espesians will teach you about who He has chosen before the foundation of the world....
megacatlady3
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02/12/2013 04:47 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
What matters MOST is only ONE thing is truly needful...Bridal Love...Is Jesus your First Love? Do you think about him constantly and can't wait to get home to be alone with him to share the intimacy of his love?Or has your love grown cold? Are you as the 5 wise virgins who were filled to overflowing with his oil? Do you have a monalogue or a dialoge ? Do you hear is voice throughout the day or only once in a while...at least you think it's his voice? This is the litmus test according to scripture. And as far as the scripture you refer to and claim as a "rapture" scripture (which I'm sure someone you know used it as such) but it is the Second Coming ! Either way Bridal Love that doesn't grow cold is what the 5 wise virgins who left with the Bridegroom called them....Foolish virgins could not go because they did not have the oil "to Hear Him call" otherwise they would have been "caught up" from anywhere for Our King would see to that ! ~Selah~
Anonymous Coward
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.


The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, yet before the rapture, this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.

Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?)

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be. (Yeah..REAL secret aint it??...NOT)
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?)

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows

Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.

Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.

The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.

1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming. 
I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.

BUT THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!!!!

Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26.
Matthew 24:12-13
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

(NOTICE IT DIDNT SAY HE WHO ENDURES TO THE START..OR THE MIDDLE..BUT THE END..WHAT PART OF "END" DONT YOU GET YET?)

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation.

In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very end shall be saved.Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

NOTICE THIS...

It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is.

1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns.

Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints.

Although....if He catches up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints. So you just cant have it BOTH ways..did Jesus MEAN what he said OR DINT he??

1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (DEAD)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(FIRST RESSURECTION)17 Then (MEANING RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION)we which are alive and remain (THOSE THAT ENDURED TO THE END AND SURVIVED)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, (THE RAPTURE)and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies.

Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints.

We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.Tell me..WHAT part of "LAST DAY dont you get yet?)

At the last trump,
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, (THEN..RIGHT AFTER THAT)and we shall be changed.(RAPTURED)[/b]53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(YEP..THATS THE RAPTURE ALRIGHT..RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION WHICH IS CLEARLY SEEN WITH NO SCRIPTURE TWISTING NEEDED...TO HAPPEN WHEN???..AT THE LORD RETURN ON THE LAAAAST DAY!!!)

Anyone cane EASILY SEE that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation (I CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW PRE TRIBBER CAN IGNORE THIS..PERHAPS IT THREATENS THEIR BOOK SALES TOO MUCH)of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect(RAPTURE THEM) from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.

Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked.

#1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming.

Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost(FOR THE RIGHTEOUS), and with fire.(FOR THE WICKED)
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.
 
1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.

2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.

2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.

This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.

I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once.

#2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked.
Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist.

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.

Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away,(IN OTHER WORKDS..KILLED THEM ALL SUDDENLY) so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken,(KILLED..NOT RAPTURED) and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away (DROWNED THEM ALL)when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken (BURNT UP SUDDENLY BY FIRE)and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.

The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God.

In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.

Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the raptre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation.

Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As CAN CLEARLY AND IRREFUTABLE CAN BE SEEN NOW...The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs.

There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, otherwise it would be a SECOND ressurection..or a THIRD even, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.


So to summarise....

The first ressurection happens at the LAST day..the very day Jesus returns to begin his reign and toast the evil ones at armageddon....yes???

The SECOND ressurection happens at the end of the thousand years not long after satan is let loose again to lead his final rebellion..correct??

So...according to the bible...Jesus returns..gathers all who are his...the dead who LOVED him and God..followed by those who are still alive who love himm....and wipes out the antichrist at the end of the tribulation..FIRST ressurection..

There are only TWO ressurections..a "First"..which is for the righteous..and a "Second" which is for the evil.


1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain (SURVIVE)unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed (GO BEFORE) them which are asleep.

Notice it says "THE COMING OF THE LORD"...so it IS his return then...and it goes on to describe what happens..the ORDER in which they happen..

16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and (THEN)the dead will rise first

Notice the TRUMPET!!..so it HAS to be the LAST trumpet..cause its his RETURN AND THE FIRST RESSURECTION!!

:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST...FIRST ressurection!)

17 Then we which are alive and remain (THE SURVIVORS)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.


So if THIS is the case...

as is clearly stated...JESUS returns..raises up ALL who are his who have died throughout history..THEN..he changes those who are still alive at this time into immortal beings..THEN he smashes the forces of the antichrist and sets up his 1000 year kindom..all on the SAME DAY


THE LAST DAY

And it CLEARLY states..that the DEAD are raised BEFORE the living are changed..

SO HOW CAN THE RAPTURE HAPPEN BEFORE THE FIRST RESSURECTION???...when it says it happens AFTER??
JDJG
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06/29/2013 03:08 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
I think that first of all, you're attitude shouldn't be cocky as far as "knowing" for sure when the rapture will take place. I've studied this subject a lot and both sides have verses that seem to support their theory. The important this is to trust God's word and not add to it or speculate too much. The verses you give are good verses and you make a good point with "The Day of the Lord". But don't jump to the conclusion that these verses support your theory exclusively, there is always human error and we could be misinterpreting scripture. Some very good points on the Pre-tribulation theory are imminence, for one, because Jesus will come for us when we least expect him to, as a thief, we know the time is near and we don't live in darkness so we should always be expecting him, but we don't know the day or hour. If the rapture occurs at the end of the 7 year tribulation, we'll be able to predict pretty much the exact day when Christ will return. Also, Revelations 3 tells sincere believers can escape the hour of temptation.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Jesus told us to pray to be counted worthy to escape the wrath to come..

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Luke 21:32-36

Finally, brother, I suggest we be more humble in our treatment with each other. I didn't VERY EASILY disprove anything. Don't think of yourself as superior to other brothers because you feel that you're braver than "them" since you feel like we aren't going to pass through the great tribulation. I hope we don't have to endure that, if we do, then it is God's will, and we will have to accept it. But I don't think we should think so highly of ourselves and our endurance. I for one would feel very distressed and partly betrayed if I had to endure all the bowls of wrath of God and the trumpets and plagues etc. that He will send to punish the earth because of their unbelief. I'll leave a link with an interesting short article about the timing of rapture with some good Bible verses supporting Pre-tribulation rapture. Have a good day and continue to study the scriptures..
tyTBwVJFinzruAWsFj
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
My goodnes this was such an eye opeenr for me. Since a child I experience a lot of rejection and feeling alone. I can relate to seeing as a child. I could see into the Spirit realm and hear. The experiences have very and into teen and adulthood, I was able to sense the spirit behind a person some not desirable. In my present place of worship I also get those feelings inside during prior to Sunday service, or prior to an event. Whats suppose to be a happy occation turned into me wantling to walk out and leave. I experienced also during service once three scents while worshiping as I felt a wind blown in my face. followed by three smells that being frankensence, fresh baked bread, and then a sweet cinnomin (sp?) roll, ending with me opening my eyes looking around to find where they were coming from, then I saw a light white bringht shoot up straight up out the scantuary. Is this part of discernment? It's kind of lonely when I feel odd and different. I don't know really what we are to do with these experiences. Wanted to know what your thoughts about these things, and seeing also in the street (demonic persons) that I know appeared or walked under the influence. Can someone see our gifting in the world? Just wonder because of such experience I had, I saw a woman about 8 feet to 9 feet pale and walking through traffic towards me, I had an errie feeling, then I felt two hands cover my ears as I was with my toddler, and a sense to quickly turn around, so I did and I turned about a minute after and she or it was gone. Mind you all traffic sound ceased as I saw this, then when I turned around , I was able to hear again, the trains, and traffic, Is this also discernment, it can be scary sometimes but not happening on a frequent basis. Thank you.God bless, Elizabeth. Very bless someones sharing this because Lord knows, I have been seeking answers.
14Jesus
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10/18/2013 10:47 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
You are sorely mistaken. The church is the bride of Christ and will not undergo the wrath of the tribulation. He will come for his bride. Please, please study this more closely before espousing false claims and using scripture to support your own beliefs. We have been cleansed and are righteous. If you believe in Jesus' death on the cross you too have been redeemed and are no longer under wrath for "there is no longer any condemnation for those who are under Christ Jesus". Amen
Anonymous Coward
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04/17/2014 05:16 PM
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Re: ENDING THE "RAPTURE" DEBATE USING BIBLE VERSES!!!
O.K. People.

I will VERY EASILY disprove the Pre-trib "rapture" theory:

Read the famous "rapture" verses in

I Thess 4:16-17

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Most people stop right here but if you continue reading their is a clue to the timing of this event.

I Thess 5:1-2

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

I think we can all agree that here, he is still addressing the "rapture" subject in the above verses.

2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Again, he's still in context with the famous "rapture" verses. Look at how he refers to this event by:

THE DAY OF THE LORD!!!!

Now you may be thinking so what? what does that tell us?

Well, lets look at what the bible tells us about the day of the Lord:

Joel 2:31

31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel 3:14-15

14Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

Isaiah 13:9-10

9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Do you see the correlation between all these verses? That's right, they all describe the same celestial events:

Sun & moon darkened, stars shall not give their light

So what does this have to do with the timing of the "rapture"

Well, lets go to Matt 24:29

Here the disciples have asked Christ what will precede his second coming. Listen to what he tells them!

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

CHRIST, BY DESCRIBING THE SAME CELESTIAL ANAMOLIES, HAS JUST SET A TIMELINE FOR THE DAY OF THE LORD (RAPTURE) AS HAPPENING AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION!!!

Look what he goes on to tell his disciples:


30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Do you see that this description lines up perfectly with the famous "rapture" passage of I Thess 4?

Look at the similarities:

I Thess 4:16-17
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout
Matt 24:30-31
They shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven

I Thess 4:16-17
with the voice of the archangel

Matt 24:30-31
And he shall send his angels

I Thess 4:16-17
and with the trump of God

Matt 24:30-31
with a great sound of a trumpet

I Thess 4:16-17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up

Matt 24:30-31
and they shall gather together his elect

We have come full circle. All of this is CONCRETE evidence for a post tribulation "rapture" and cannot be denied.

THE CHURCH WILL GO THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!!

CHURCH, IT'S TIME TO AMP YOURSELF UP SPIRITUAL AND LEAVE THIS WORLD BEHIND. WE HAVE MANY TRIBULATIONS AHEAD OF US TO ENDURE. ONLY THE TRUE WALK THE WALK BELIEVERS WILL BE WORTHY OF GLORY. STOP DECEIVING YOURSELVES AND COME BACK TO THE TRUTH!!!


God Bless.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 551607


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